The Mental Game: How a Fighter Uses Mind Games Before the Big Fight

27:30He's not your normal boxer. But be real. Like, is there a door open? I know you can't. Like, is it cracked open? Is it possible? The right dude came along, called you out, whatever. Like, don't do the TV answer. Do the real answer. Like, is there a chance that you would fight again?

27:49Listen, it's not something I'm planning. You know, it's not something I'm planning. It's not something that's being mapped out. but I'm also smart enough to know that you don't know how things are going to unfold you just don't know so I'm always going to keep myself in some kind of shape yeah you're smirking I'm always keep my eye on the game and just see who's who and what's going on but I'm not planning on it like the why is what we're going to address in my upcoming documentary Yeah. Unguarded. Let's talk about that. And I named it unguarded because my harshest critic will say that Andre's guarded.

28:30He doesn't give you anything. And some of that is true. But a lot of them haven't taken the time to ask why. Like, we just met. I followed you. I know your body of work. But I feel like I can talk to you. You know, it's kind of like a kindred spirit there. So you want to open up to a person like that. And sometimes the media, they come off abrasive and they've, they kind of want the story for the wrong reason. And based on my upbringing and everything that I've had to go through, like I'm sensitive with my story, man. And I'm sensitive with my whys and I'm sensitive with all those things. And this is one of the first times that I'm going to like really open up and not just open up, but like show people why the best fighter at that time a year ago walked away from from tens of millions of dollars.

29:21And without giving too much away, like, of course, you know, there's a lot of factors. There's there's, you know, wanting to preserve my long term health. I'm dealing with physical issues. I've had multiple surgeries and I've, you know, to use your line, like I've maxed out. Like I poured myself out. Like I've literally given everything that I was supposed to give. Like when I jump rope, I gave it everything I had. When I shadow box, I gave it everything I had. And literally to the point where my coaches had to pull me back and say, man, don't leave it all in here. Like that's all I know is to give it everything I have because like I've had a 20-year win streak since I've been a baby, 14 years old.

29:58And that doesn't come easy. And yes, I can have the faith in God. and yes, I can have all that stuff, but faith without works is dead. And I put in that work. So I got to a point where I said, there's only a handful of guys that have walked away like this. A handful. And there's even a smaller percentage of guys that left undefeated. And I didn't just pad my record and then say I'm undefeated. Like, I fought the best. The best available competition. and I just woke up one day and I had tens of millions of dollars on the table and I told my wife I was like I don't want to do this no more you know I don't want to do this no more and I said and even me saying it like it's taboo you're not supposed to say that as a professional athlete and more importantly a fighter because when you start using the R word the writing's on the wall it's time to go and uh she said babe if you're saying that I feel like the decision is already made and you know you got my full support and um the video that you just mentioned for some reason that video was in my head like I had it I said man I want my and those boys that were in the video were my sons oh wow I said I want to show people like my career at each stage as a young kid and then, you know, young teenager and then, you know, older teenager.

31:28And then I want to let them know that I accomplished everything that I set out to accomplish. I got people that love me. I got I got critics, you know, I've done it all that I wanted to do. I've made enough money. I'm ready to go. And there's a piece of this decision that was for me. But then there's also a piece that was for the sport that I love, a sport that I've given, given up a childhood for and given my life to, you know, fighters are not always revered. When you say certain fighters' names, you get a certain reaction. When you bring up the name boxing and you don't love the sport like you, most people's reaction is, ah, you know, and they have something negative to say after that.

32:10And one thing that they always say is, ah, you know, those fighters, man, you know, they hang on too long. And I went to Canistota, New York, about three years ago to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. And it was such a, it was a rewarding moment. It was a, it was an awesome moment. I'm seeing fighters that I grew up watching and I'm talking to them and we're getting at each other. Like, man, I ought to beat you, man. You're too small. We just had a great two or three days. But then I also saw the ones that, that neurologically weren't good or maybe didn't have the money, tangible, you know, proof of what they did all these years.

32:47And it bothered me. And I don't want to I didn't want to be another one of those guys. Like when is enough enough? Yeah. Like you can always say there's more money out there. But the question that me and my wife kept asking ourselves, what do we do with what we had? Yeah. With what was in already in our hands. And since I retired, don't get me wrong. Like I missed the boxing checks because they were plentiful. Sure. They were large. Yes. But but they come with a price. and I just wasn't willing to put my body through that anymore and again I'm a person that gave it all I had or I don't want to do it at all and if I can't give it all I have and if I don't think my body's going to respond like I need it to I don't want to wait until some young guy has to show me that I don't have it anymore I'd rather leave on top and try to set an example for the next generation and say man you know what I'm going to do the Andre Ward oh wow you just have this overabundance of character so that's what overflows from you right And I do believe in life.

33:45There's these chapters of our lives. And I think, you know, and I want to make sure that everyone knows about this documentary too. It's like, that's one of these chapters. Just the preview alone is just gripping. It's like unbelievable. I can't wait for this to get out into the world. And you've turned the page. And one of the things about you is your character. So by the way, selfishly, I hope as you keep turning these pages that sometime over the next two or three years, again, the chapter turns where you feel the desire to do that or should do it. But I admire and respect you for not doing it, too, because there is so much to be said to be finishing the way that you have.

34:15And because of your character, because of your composure, your elegance, the way you communicate, you have a lot of other opportunities outside of boxing, too. I mean, you know that.

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35:06When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th, and never miss a meme or milestone, all protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. Trent Shelton, welcome back to the show, my brother.

35:47Hey, man. I appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me back. You've had an injury that ended a career like we both had, right? Or whatever. That is not changeable. That is a fact of life. it happened or there was a divorce or you had a bankruptcy or a business failed or someone did you wrong. So you talk often about being able to not change the situation, but change potentially the way that you want. So go ahead. I'll let you, I'll let you answer that. That's so powerful, Ed, because I get that question all the time. It's like, I can't change. Or even teenagers are saying, I can't, I'm in my parent household.

36:21I can't get out of this household. I can't do this. And if that's the truth, if you can't change the situation, you must change your mindset in the situation. You must change your mindset towards the situation. You must change who you are in the situation. And that's called perspective. Some I talk about all the time, your perspective can be your prison or it can be your power. And so any situation that I know that I can't undo, I mean, even with my mother's passing, I can't change that. That's a situation I have forever. I can allow that pain to control me or I can say, you know what? I can do something with this pain and manipulate it to make it my power.

37:00And so I'm always thinking now, okay, how can I find power in this situation? You talk about the word for the year, right? One of my words I always say is this, or mantras is this, it's power. When I can't change situations, this is power because at some point I know I'm going to look back and say, man, that situation that was supposed to break me that I couldn't change at the moment, maybe God was allowing me to stay in that situation, not to break me, but to build me. And I can look back plenty of times in my life and say, man, I'm glad I stayed in that, or I'm glad that happened because now it created something inside of me that if I want to move from that situation or I didn't have that situation, I wouldn't have the experience.

37:37I wouldn't have the knowledge and I wouldn't have the strength from it. Yeah. Now that won't stay on that because most people know your story, but maybe they need to be right. Many may not, you know, people that are new to my show or, or new to you. But this whole thing that you are, this man you've become was really born out of a situation you couldn't change with your friend, right? Like the beginning of this version of Trent Shelton. And I think it's probably a great time in the show for you to tell that story because I think there's a lot of people that are in situations they can't change right now, combined with the fact that they're not sure what their purpose is or what their passion is or what to do about it.

38:14And you've become one of the biggest influencers in the world through what most people would view and was a tragedy with a friend of yours. So take everyone through that part of your story. It's the perfect time in the show, because I think they can see themselves in your story, even though the situations are different. Absolutely. I was a college teammate, college roommate, even more than that. One of my closest friends in college, his career got cut short, football player. And what I mean, got cut short. He went through some trials and relationship things. He left a football team and, you know, he joined the military and nothing wrong with that.

38:49But I just know that for him in conversations, he was selling, he was unhappy just being around him. I could just tell something was different. 2011, I got a call one night. I was actually on my way to our other best friend's house. And it's ironic because me and my best friend were just talking about him. It's like, man, we need to link up with aunt. Got a call from a girl who actually knew us at Baylor, but she was in the she worked at the coroner's office. She said, Hey, Trent, uh, and it's here. And I didn't put two and two together. I was like, okay, like where, like, is he, you know, I don't, where is he at?

39:19He's like, he's here. And I was like, what are you talking about? It's like, I worked at the coroner's office. He's here. And it still didn't register. Make a long story short, Ann had committed suicide. Um, they found him three days later, uh, with all the memories in front of him, pictures of people, um, you know, it's football things. And, you know, he shot itself in the head. And in that moment, uh, it hurt because, you know, when you lose somebody, the first thing you go to is guilt. The first thing you go to is regret and ask yourself, man, I wish I would have, I wish I would have done more.

39:50And in that moment, I knew that there was nothing I could have done more, you know, since the situation had happened. Uh, I remember going to the service, man. And, and I'm glad that you said this because being a speaker, being whatever people want to call me titles, author, all the stuff that people give me. This wasn't something that I wanted to do. This wasn't something that I sought out to say, hmm, this is a great business idea. Let me do this. No, it wasn't. It was my promise to him at his funeral. My promise. And I love what you say, man, you know, keeping that promise to yourself is so, so important.

40:26My promise to him was like, aunt, I'm going to live the rest of my life to help people with their self-worth. So when people see my videos and they say, Trent, man, like you talk about releasing things from your life or getting rid of toxic things from your life. This is why, because he had toxic things in his life that he felt like he had no life anymore. And he felt like there was no reason to go on. And so with my promise to him, and from that day, I started picking up my cell phone, didn't have a following, started making these videos with just this. Didn't have some camera that you're seeing now.

40:57Didn't have no microphone, just my cell phone. And I committed myself for the rest of my life. And I want to be clear about that, Ed, because I just feel like we live in a generation now where I don't want to step on any, I don't mind stepping on people's toes, but I don't want to, you know, make people feel a certain type of way by saying this. And, you know, hopefully y 'all have, you know, you have your insecurities to the side, but a lot of people, you know, when they sign up for certain things, it's for external reasons. It's because they see Ed Milet with, you know, this following, they see Trent showing this, but they don't know what we have endured and what we still endure while we're going through it.

41:34They don't have a deep rooted reason of why they want to do what they do. And every time opportunity to quit, opportunity to throw in the towel, opportunity to detour to something else, to change, you know, there's people that's on there. And I, I want to be clear. It's okay to, you know, change different things, but if you're just changing because it's hard because things ain't adding up because you're not getting the likes and the views and the money, all that stuff. I see a lot of that. And for me, I said, there's no negotiation with this. Yes. Like I'm burning the boats, burning the bridge, and I'm signing up for this forever.

42:06So every time I want to quit, man, I picture his face and it makes me go even harder. I hope everybody just hears what he just said. I mean, it's easy to hear it. in hindsight. This guy's a Trent's football player, right? And kind of then trying to find where, what am I going to do with my life? Imagine this, that because of this tragedy in his life, a situation, as we said in the previous conversation, wasn't controllable. And he ends up becoming, through grabbing his cell phone and just starting to talk about this stuff, one of the biggest influences on the planet, hundreds of millions of views, probably over a billion if you added up all your content now, you know, all of it combined, right?

42:44One of the most sought after speakers on the planet, podcaster, author, guy I've had on, I've had, I think three people on my show only two times. He's one of them. And that gives you an idea of how highly I regard Trent. And a lot of you that are listening to this, if you're thinking, I don't know what my passion is, here's a place to look. And it's not always there. Look for a real pain point for you. It's a really, it's not always there, but you go, what's a real pain point? Like for me, my dad was an alcoholic, my low self-esteem. That's the pain point of my life has become my work. That's that thing Trent just used, deep rooted reason to keep going when you're not successful originally.

43:21That's why this pain, he always says, has turned it into a purpose. That's usually where your purpose is coming from, is a place of pain from you. That's why you see some of these influencers that are super fit that used to be super heavy. It was a pain point. My guest today is The Undertaker, aka Mark Calloway. So Mark, thanks for being here, brother no thanks for having me man I'm excited one of the things that I noticed about you brother on the that 30-year arc was how hard you are on yourself how self-aware you are particularly as it opens I won't give the whole thing away but it opens up with your match with Roman Reigns right and you were injured at the time and you know maybe not at the top of your game and to watch you watch you back in that video.

44:08It made me emotional. I was out on my balcony alone. It was like 11 o 'clock last night and I literally got tears in my eyes because I so admired your self-reflection, your awareness and your desire. Even at that time, you're probably 52, probably in your 50s already, right? He's 55 years old, guys. And if you're watching YouTube, look at this man's physique, right? But talk about that, like setting that standard for yourself, being aware, you setting the highest standard for yourself, not Vince, not someone else, but you. Yeah, I'm my toughest critic and I always have been. You got everybody telling you through the course of your career, especially when you're coming up, oh, man, you're great, you're this, you're that.

44:51And, I mean, yeah, that's fine. But you've got to take that and you have to put it aside. and it's like when I when I watched my back when I was coming up and I watched my mat my matches back um good bad and different I always had to watch them alone because I didn't want any feedback from anybody else saying oh man that was that was great that was oh man when how did you do that that was so cool you know I wanted to watch even on the good stuff I wanted to watch and see what I did wrong. I wanted to know what, okay, in that situation, what could I have done better to make that match better? And that's, like I said, that's how you continue to grow.

45:31The Roman match at WrestleMania, I was, that was tough. And what was so good about the doc was that was the actual first time that I watched it back. Being later in my career, I was at that point, when I watched it back, I was pretty much done. I was just like, I can't, my bodies give out on me. I can't. Um, and, and I have to start thinking longterm after 30 plus years. And, uh, so that was, that was really raw and, and real, uh, because I knew, I knew, I knew it was going to be tough to watch. Um, and then having to do it in that environment with cameras on me and it was and out of character too.

46:16Right. I mean, Completely out of character, right? So you got what you got is, is, is Mark thinking in his head, like, you know, there's a lot of things that I wanted to say, obviously that would have been bleeped and edited because I was so disappointed and not just disappointed for me. I was disappointed for Roman in that sense. I saw that. Because it was, it was my, it was my opportunity to give him something that was going to push him, you know, that was going to push him to a higher level. And it didn't, I didn't deliver on that. Um, and I can't make excuses. Yes. I was banged up and beat up, but I was there.

46:57So, you know, I have a response in my mind, I have a responsibility. If my name is on, is on the page, then you got to go. And I was just, I got, I knew when I knew in January that I was physically, I was physically not going to be at my best, but it was too late at that point. Like I'd already committed. It's already down. This is what's going to happen. And I was scrambling, trying to figure out how to, you know, how I was going to make this work. And it just, um, I was, yeah, I was thoroughly disappointed. And, and, um, and then there we go. Then the documentary kind of gets, gets rolling. Cause initially, you know, Initially, it was just I had those guys there to cover that weekend.

47:45Oh, is that right? That's all that was going to be. It was all it was going to be because I thought that was going to be it. Yeah. The stuff with the hat and the coat, everything in the ring, all that was just raw and real.

48:03So I'm not going to get another chance to catch the stuff backstage and my interactions with my peers and Vince. And I just wanted that and not knowing what we were going to have, but I knew that I wasn't going to have another chance to get it. Yeah. Guys, I got to tell you, Mark's being humble. I don't care if you're a WWE fan or not. If you're a fan of achievement, of redemption, of comebacks, which a lot of people need right now, learning about a beautiful marriage and how it can make a man stronger, you should go watch this. I got to tell you, the last ride, I watched the entire thing. And the thing that, you know, the reason that the show is called Max Out and Mark Persona, you talk about maxing out a career.

48:44That's the definition of Mark's life in the WWE as the Undertaker. He's maxed out that career. And I have a funny feeling he's not done, which we'll talk about at the end. But I got to tell you all something. What he's describing here, guys, this not believing your press clipping thing, not buying into all the rah-rah and hype and accolades you get. I talk a lot about is your will to win for sale. And yeah, people can lose their will to win when they lose, but you can lose your will to win when you win. In other words, enough accolades, enough money, enough success, it buys your will to still want to get better.

49:18It buys your will to want to improve. The thing that I love about Mark and watching him was you can't buy this man's will to win. And I think that's linked to the 30-year-plus career. The other guys, the accolades, the success, the access to different things at some point stole their will to prepare. I'm not doubtful that you didn't get off track a couple times, but you kept getting back on track. And I got to ask you, because even as you're talking, it's a little odd for me to talk to you as Mark. Because I think unlike, this is why the last ride is so interesting too. You've done very few interviews ever, not as the character.

49:54Did you take that to the extreme? I ran into you in an airport when I was very young. I'll tell you about that in a minute. But you were in character at the airport when I was there. we were at a baggage claim guys and I don't know how old I was the mark and I aren't even that far apart in age but I was on like one of my first business trips I was at a baggage claim I never came I didn't say anything to you but I watched you interact with the fans first you had your bag with you for about 40 minutes brother and you've probably done this hundreds of times and I watched you talk to every single fan take every single picture shake every single hand and I watched him look them in the eye too and I said I like this dude but you look like the undertaker not You didn't have the eye makeup on, but it seemed like you were kind of halfway in character.

50:36Am I crazy, or did you do that in real life when you went out? No, I lived this thing. When I started, and this character was so unique, especially for the time period, Vince had all these over-the-top characters, and he gave me this. The original likeness, the name was all Vince's brainchild. And he gave it to me. And he said, this is your opportunity. And so I took it from there. So, you know, when we developed, when I started developing the character, I was like, there's only one way that this is going to work. And it was a lot simpler back then because there, you know, there wasn't cell phones and people recording everything that you do.

51:27But I said, I've got to be this for this to work. I can't be that on TV and then be at the airport in a Hawaiian shirt, you know, slapping high fives. Because it was too big to me. It was too big a disconnect. and there was a lot of opportunities that I was presented with early on that I passed on like people thought I was absolutely nuts but you'd have to realize that this was my passion like being a professional wrestler being with the WWE that was that was me right that I mean that's what my focus was and yes I had opportunities to go and do a lot of different things but in my head like, okay, this is my passion.

52:16Now, how am I going to go off and do this and be this completely different character and then come back and expect people to buy into what I was doing? There's just all the elements of being the greatest. So he's being humble, but he's the greatest of all time. He's the most respected guy in the locker room, most longevity. By the way, he's not going to tell you this, kind of known as being involved in maybe three of the top three matches of all time also has one guy in common, him. And guys, forget what you do. You're an engineer. Listen to this. You're a school teacher. Listen to this. You're an entrepreneur.

52:51There are elements that he's giving you that are the pieces to being great. And one of them, I'll help him say this because he's got so much humility, is his loyalty. It's his loyalty. When he's saying he passed on things, let me be specific. He passed on movie roles and things like that that he could have done out of character. There were times where he was offered more money to leave the organization like other guys did that were hot. And he stayed and was loyal. And I think loyalty is a very undervalued commodity in becoming a leader. And you're sort of a leader in the locker room for that organization.

53:26I got to think that, and I'd like you to talk about both these things, Mark. One is being a leader and the way you do it, because I get the feeling you're not a rah-rah dude, jump up and down and all that. But you are a leader in the organization. And then since we're on that topic, talk about the very unique relationship you have with the overall leader of the organization in Vince McMahon. It seems that that's become a special friendship forged through loyalty, probably more than anything. And I got to think that friendship's been both good to his career and your career as well. So speak to those couple of things.

53:59Yeah, absolutely. So as far as being the leader, it was never really there was never really something like I tried to pursue it just it just kind of happened through the years and I fell into this unique position where the the boys the guy the wrestlers um you know they saw what the business meant to me and that the business always came first no matter what the business came first and as far when we're out on the road obviously you know your family comes first but in a business sense when i'm when i'm there i don't care how late we stayed out how whatever we did nightlife wise it did not affect the next day's performance if it did then you knew you were going to get you know you get pulled aside and say look if you can't handle this then maybe you shouldn't be doing this because at the end of the day it depends on what we do for our audience the next day guys appreciated that but they knew like okay hey you know takes one of us he goes out and he has a good time just like everybody else but at bell time all that goes out the window until after it's all over with and so yeah so there was this I had and then I had the also I had the the trust of what we call the office you You know, there's the office and then there's the boys.

55:25Somehow or another, I kind of landed in the middle. I was always accepted as one of the boys, but the office knew that they could trust me. And there were a lot of times, like whoever our talent relations VP was, there was a lot of times they would come to me and say, hey, this is, you know, we're having this issue. and I could go to the guys or a guy or a person, pull them aside and say, look, man, you know, I understand. And they appreciate that because they know that I'd been through every, everything possible to go through. So, you know, it wasn't like, oh, well, you know, Undertaker's a stooge for the office and he's trying to, you know, they trusted me.

56:15So I had that trust on each side, but I could many times I could talk to somebody and say, Hey, look, this is, this is their perspective. Okay. I understand your perspective because I'm, you know, I'm talent, right. I'm talent. I'm with you. So a lot of times that happened and I could divert bigger issues with guys. If they could kind of get over, you know, if they could get over the ego and then they knew and they trusted me enough, like, well, you know, takers, not going to screw me over. So it worked out. It worked, it worked out really nice. And then with Vince and the loyalty and everything else, I – so I was told by WCW.

57:02I was told I went out. I'd been there for about a year. My contract was coming up. and I went in to renegotiate my contract. And I wasn't looking for a huge bump, but I was looking for, you know, I'd been, I had a pretty good year and I was just looking for a slight, just a slight bump. And I was told by, you know, Jim Hurd who was running the company at the time, Ole Anderson and Jim Barnett, they looked me square in my eyes. And they said, you're a great athlete, but no one's ever going to pay money to watch you wrestle.

57:38seriously okay that's all I needed to hear so Vince so I get a meeting with Vince and you know he eventually gives me that opportunity and that's all he ever promised me was an opportunity he never told me hey you're going to be you're going to be this guy here for 30 years and do all these things he said I'm going to give you an opportunity and and then but that's all I'd always remember. When I did become a commodity, when WCW wanted me back, you know, they wanted to pay me big bucks because they were paying everybody big bucks. Yeah. You know, it's like, no, I can't do that. You know, they're offering me a lot more money, but this is the man who made me.

58:22And that's just the way it is. And then obviously we just are, we've been through so much together professionally, personally that, you know, most times now I don't even deal with Vince hardly when it comes to business. Our relationship 90 % of the time is more of that of friends than it is of business. Unless there's a special ask that nobody else wants to ask me to do, then they say, you're the only one that's going to be able to get him to do it. So, yeah. Well, I think when comes to you, second nature, which is loyalty, isn't second nature for most people. And I think that's one of the other elements.

59:00I see Michelle sitting back there. Come on in. So there's Michelle, everybody. And when y 'all get the chance to watch this docuseries, you'll get it. Okay. But I'm glad you joined at the perfect time. Thank you for doing that. Thank you. Because what I want to shift to involves both of you and I want you both to comment on it. Let's be real. We just had COVID, right? The economy's in the tank, you know, things aren't going good. There's millions of people that have had a job and lost it right now. There's entrepreneurs that had a business that are losing it. There's people that got really fit the last couple of years.

59:32I've been able to go to a gym in three, four months. They've lost a little of their fitness. Bottom line is there's millions of people around the world right now that need to make a comeback. And as I was prepping for this, and then I watched the last ride, I'm like, oh man, all right, this is perfect. Because what really happened was, guys, when you watch this, it's really becomes a part of how these two people in love with each other, unify, and create a comeback in his career. Because Michelle is and was a WWE superstar in her own right, everybody. And we'll talk a little bit about that in a minute, too.

1:00:03But talk a little bit about the comeback, because it's pretty cool. You watch it. I don't know if it's a broken-down Seedoo repair place or whatever that thing was that you were training in. I don't know what that was. It was – yeah. That place hadn't been touched. It was not sanitary, I can tell you that. I don't think anybody even walked in that place in over 15 years. Oh, it was bad. That just blew my mind because I'm like, the greatest WWE superstar of all time ends up making his comeback in a place that's like, no one's been in for like, it looked like they're in the middle of nowhere, like an abandoned whatever they were in, you know?

1:00:38And that's where the comeback started. But let's talk about that for a minute. I want to set the stage for everybody for whatever your career is. This is a man who's climbed to the top of his industry, right? and Michelle's also been at the top of that industry. He ends up for his last, he's going to have his last match and doesn't go the way he wants it to. And over time, it gnaws at him a little bit. Like anybody, he wants to make a comeback. It's like many of you right now listening to this, driving in your car or you're finally back on a treadmill at the gym, listen to this. And imagine after 30 years, his body's beaten up.

1:01:12He's already been to the top. He doesn't need to do it. He's already the most admired dude in the sport. yet he makes a comeback what were some of the things mentally that you both had to do in order to create the mindset where you're willing to go do that work again like you changed your body that the the Roman Reigns match to the comeback Matt Mike I mean you just physically look like a different person right so talk a little bit mentally what you had to do to do that what were some of the elements and both of you can comment on it I think one thing that's key for both of us it's a blessing and a curse is we're both completely stubborn so sometimes though that helps out like in situations like this you know we both have the mentality of you gonna do something you're gonna get it done and do it right and go after it you know and just give it your all and I think yeah you know being stubborn helped yeah I definitely wasn't gonna let that be the last memory that people had of me so I knew you know as you get older you have to accept the fact that you're going to have to put in twice the work and get half the results.

1:02:22You have to accept that fact. So I had to make the, we had to make the mental decision like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I mean, we got to go. And she's like, all right, if that's what you want to do, then we're going to do it. So on her end, she, you know, she drops everything that she's got to do to make sure that I've got meal prep and I've got, you know, all my appointments lined up like for rehab, stretching, all these different things that normally she took all that worry off the table. And then, so then it's just the training aspect. And then the training was obviously getting my hip fix, which was covered pretty well in the doc.

1:03:10that allowed me to train at a much different level. And then that was kind of a, that, that alone was a breath of fresh air. Although, although it's a, you know, that's one little part of the, of my body that I have issues with, but that was the main one. Was there doubt Mark? Like, Hey, I'm gonna come back and have a second match I'm not proud of. And I'm going to embarrass myself or something like that. Cause I think a lot of people right now that are thinking about making a come back they're like if I fall on my face again I don't know if I can handle doing that again did you have any of that Michelle were you worried about that um no but I know how he operates and I was worried that he was I mean knowing him I think it's safe to say you're probably thinking about it was in the back of your head which is the reason you're going back in the first place because you weren't happy of you know from the last and just kind of out there to prove something so um I knew he wanted to do it but I think in the same regard we're both the type of people you can't fear failure if you're going to do it go out there you know learn from the past mistakes and like he just said train the best way possible for his body to get into the ring and you know see what happens just can't fear that failure it looked to me like and I think there's a huge lesson in this guys I'm seeing I want y 'all to watch this thing I'm not pumping the documentary I'm just telling you it'll make an impact on you and I'm a WWE fan of course it would but the millions of you listening to me right now that aren't, it'll make an impact on you and where you are in your life.

1:04:38You're going to see, you're going to see what machine, they're both really humble people. You're going to see what Michelle did. I think what made the comeback work guys, I don't think you can dabble in your comeback. Like they threw the kitchen sink. It was like shock and awe at this thing, all hands on deck, the whole family rallied. They get this place set up. Even the little details mark of like the banners of the other dudes and you up in there, like you're looking, you said, one point you said, those guys are watching me. Right. Like to me, man, like that wasn't, it was like a, almost like a real life Rocky movie for real.

1:05:10And then everybody, and I'll warn you this, then he comes back and he does great, but it's not even really what he wished for. It wasn't like, it wasn't, it was a five minute match where he trained for 30, 40 minutes. And so even when you get your comeback, the first time you come back, it may not even be exactly what you wanted. And then he went past that moment. True Mark. It wasn't what you were looking for. Yeah, I trained for a 45-minute all-out back-and-forth war and was so ready for that. And then I got there the day of, and that's, you know, it's going to be five minutes, and you're going to be a romping, stomping dragon.

1:05:48And, you know, and that's what we sell. I mean, we sell entertainment. We don't sell time. But we were just talking the other day about how life and wrestling matches are so parallel, right? You know what your ultimate finish is going to be or what you would like it to be, but you're going to get knocked down. You're going to get beat up. You're going to have a little hope spot where there's this ray of light like, oh, I can do this. You're going to get knocked back down again. Then you have this comeback, and it can be this great comeback, and you can finish on top, or it can be a great comeback, and then you just get knocked back down.

1:06:21What do you do from there? It's your choice. What happens there? if you decide to stay down, then that's kind of going to dictate the rest of your life, really. If you accept it, if you accept where you're at. I couldn't accept after watching that match back, I couldn't accept leaving on those terms. And then I knew where I wanted to be. And I knew, like, okay, this is what we got to do to get to the point where I want to be. That's powerful, man. Like Malcolm X has this great quote. It says that which you do not hate, you will eventually tolerate. You almost have to hate where you're at. And that's not a negative thing to want to move out of it.

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1:08:01That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Tim Grover, welcome back to the show, brother. Thank you so much. At the beginning of the book, guys, this is an unbelievable story about your last conversation with Kobe Bryant. Just your relationship with him, because I think a winner, I do think of Kobe and MJ, 11 championships between them. Tell everybody a little bit about that conversation. You know, Kobe and I, we text often. He was no longer playing basketball.

1:08:34He had moved into the business world. Already won an Oscar, wrote an amazing children's book. And we text back and forth. We tried to see each other. He was busy. I was busy. And say, how are you doing? He'd be, I'm good. How are you doing? And I'm chasing the next win. He's chasing the next win. And we were going to get together. The all-star game was going to be in Chicago. And our plan was he was going to come in town, you know, to support and some business stuff and so forth. So we had planned to get together. And he said, he'll text me when I'm in town. I said, hey, I'm not going anywhere.

1:09:09and sorry brother I'm the only guy who gets Tim Grover to cry on the show

1:09:21you're good it never happened yeah it never happened he said something to you at the end of that conversation too right about winning or I'm going to keep winning or something like that chasing the next win chasing the next one chasing the next one what was it like for you tim because obviously the emotion on your face is this is not tim you're not you're not a crier no what i'm curious what when you heard the news originally by the way i was with him the week before is that crazy i'll have to tell you that in a minute but um did you just not believe it or was it just like the breath left your body or so what happened was you know i get i get some information somebody shoots me a text I was like oh fake news this is not true this is not true and then more media comes in more people that were like really close to him like out in the LA area and so forth said hey I just want to let you know that this is and I was like it can't be it can't be it didn't hit me until like three days later really three days I was just like literally sleeping and I got up in the middle of the night and I was just like

1:10:38he's gone because you just didn't want to believe it you just didn't want to believe it do you think obviously you being such a close confidant of his and I get what you mean like time happens in life you're not texting every single day you're both busy guys but you don't have to when you're great friends you and I even we text a lot but even we don't for a month or two It's like right back. It's not personal. Right. It's never personal. Like, you're busy. Hey, your success comes in. Send you a thumbs up. Everybody, you don't have to text anybody when they know that you're actually excited for every win they get and every win that you get.

1:11:15Right. Like, they already know you're there for them. Now, when they do something exceptional, you're like, hey, I just saw what you did or something funny. But, yeah, exactly. I think something with him, like, because it grips so many people that aren't even basketball fans. I think it's when someone lives so full out that when they're no longer living, the impact of that passing is greater for some reason. I mean, he was so alive. So to make the transition from winning on the basketball court to winning in the business environment. And then he got it. You got a chance to see, you know, when he was no longer that basketball player, how close he was with his family.

1:11:52Yeah. You know, how he supported how he supported everyone. on his daughter's basketball games and the volleyball games and everything. And it was just like he was a much approachable person. Everybody used to see this rigid individual on the court, and he was smiling and he was talking to other players and so forth. I always say that his next move, his next win was he had two things he wanted to do. And I have no proof of this, but just knowing his mentality. one was he wanted his daughter to be the first female to play in the nba no kidding not the wmba the nba wow that's what he was getting that's what he was getting her ready for and the second one was like he was like i already own la from a basketball standpoint I want to race the basketball thing I want to own LA no kidding he was that driven to continue to win yes which is the theme in the book see what I'm going to tell you is you'd be proud of him by the way because I know you there's intermittent and I did not know Kobe well but our daughters played in the same volleyball league so the week before he passed we were in the same gym I remember you telling this story yeah three it ends up these volleyball tournaments are long as you know being a volleyball dad yes they are but anyway long story short there's three dads left it's almost 10 o 'clock at night left in this gym, me, him, and another dude who's a good friend of mine.

1:13:20And it was just striking for me. I watched this, it's the black mom, a man, this dude's a killer, right? But I watched him and I have no idea why it's like really struck me. I'm always evaluating him. You and I talk about it. Yeah. Am I a good dad? How's your daughter? You know, like we're always evaluating these things. And, and I watched him other end of the gym, I watched him with his daughter and he's carrying the baby and his one arm and just, uh, the game was over and he was like, kind of just caressing his other daughter's back, just watching him. I remember literally going, I don't hug Bella enough.

1:13:50Like I don't hug her enough, you know? And he was such, I mean, because he's a man, he's a flawed man. It was a guy had, he really changed. Yes. That's something to be so proud of. Anyway, long story short, because to me, that's winning. Winning is improvement. Winning is growing. Winning is ultimately, he was a better man on his last day than he was in the middle of his career. And when you said flawed, everybody thinks of flawed as a negative. We're all flawed. We are all flawed. Accept it, use it, learn from it, and be like, okay, this is who I am. This is who I am. I'm not trying to be somebody else.

1:14:29What's your flaws that makes you exceptional? That will make you different. That's what allows you to win where other people don't want to win is the people that can say hey we're flawed we've both wrote bestseller books and people won't know this about it they know this about me but you shared this when we were at uh rt cynic at one time you can't spell

1:14:54that's totally true and i can't eat that's such a great point okay those are our flaws and what do we do we just laugh at it we write best-selling books yes i never even thought of that we laughed at it i got knocked out in a spelling bee which is in the book and the word they asked me to spell was ham

1:15:21that's so awesome dude yeah it's so awesome i'm crying so you cried on sad stuff i cry on funny stuff i just i just you know i think about it man like you say something in the book there's all these lessons and they're all listed like as number one which i like too he's like hey there's not 21 there's not 28 there's like there's just an unlimited list of things yes compiled on this book and winning and it made me think of kobe because you know when he walked out of the gym that day i've said this to you too but he had six days left to live and i just you know what if the world would have if he could just have a whisper when he got into that car with his family that I, Kobe, six days left to live.

1:15:58Yeah. Three days later, Kobe, three more days. Three more days. That's Saturday prior. Kobe, one day left. You know, and the one thing I do feel like about people that win is, in the book, because Kobe was doing this to the very end, you talk about the sprint versus marathon thing on winning. Just talk about that, because I think Kobe did that until right in the last moment. Right at the end. You know, Kobe had this great line that he used to use all the time. he goes rest at the end not in the middle rest at the end not in the middle so to me life and winning is a bunch of sprints within a marathon you know it's a fact yeah a bunch of sprints with within a marathon and you can't see the end line like in a marathon you know where the end line is.

1:16:48In winning, that win, that race may have an end line, but there's another start line right after it. For people that are really driven, and this is not about money, and this isn't about fame. This is about, you could be winning as a school teacher. You could be winning as an entrepreneur. You could be winning in business. You could be winning as an athlete, as a waiter, whatever it is, a waitress, whatever it is. It's that every single of time you sprint to that finish line there's another start line that's coming and that's why it never ends it's a marathon that just keeps going going and going and I try to tell people listen I'm not an avid runner I used to be in my much younger days not avid I used to enjoy it

1:17:37you see the times of the the best marathons they're running insane insane insane they're They're basically sprinting. They're basically, they're sprinting. They are sprinting. I think that's one of the things, Tim, that you say in the book that I think is like super profound. I think a lot of people think there's some pacing to winning. But the truth is, there's not really pacing, is there? The best are full speed, knowing it's a long race, but there's only really one gear for them. Or am I wrong about that? No, no, you're absolutely right. But everyone looks at the physical condition. are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day and for how long because somebody else is sprinting you don't want them to get what be what should be your win ends up being somebody else's win and everyone says hard work now we'll get you closer to that.

1:18:39How many individuals have you known that you've outworked and they got that win? Yeah, right. Winning has no loyalty to you. It has no loyalty to me. It has no loyalty to anybody. You can outwork somebody. You can outstudy them. You can do all these different things. Yeah. You can apply for a job and somebody who's less qualified ends up getting that job. So winning has no loyalty to you. It's like, here it is this is where the book is so I call it like hardcore because that's your style too it's like look there's so many things in the book where you talk like that about you know hey listen winning doesn't care about you winning winning will lift you up and then slap you back down again right there's all of these unbelievable and I think as somebody who wants to win more I've done some winning who wants to win more when you read it if you've had any wins in your life confirmation of truth when you read something that you know is true it just instantly sits on you as a fact right and so here's one of the things you say in the book you say my man all over the book i'm highlighting and writing stuff down for people i know for myself i read this to max last night about 1 a.m he goes dad he's the way i said wake up i'm reading grover's book he's like bring it back with you tonight which i'm gonna do but you give him this one okay i will I'll give them the clean win.

1:19:55Thank you. Winning requires you to be different and different scares people. So if you're worried about what others will say, the long-term effects, the sacrifices you make, the sleep you lose, your family being angry, I can't help you with that. There's nothing quote typical about lifestyle and choices you have to make. Winning is inside all of us, but for most, that's where it will stay. Trapped under a lifetime of fear and worry and doubt. the race to speak of the sprint to greatness has no rules to protect you nothing says you're gonna lose you're gonna get you're not gonna get nothing says you're not gonna lose nothing says you're not gonna get hurt you're not gonna do all this work for nothing there's no guarantee it'll be fair most likely it will not be fair you'll lose at the buzzer you lose to someone who didn't work as hard as you did you lose on a bad call or a bad place someone else will get the job a pandemic will wipe out your season your bank account your career.

1:20:47Yet, the prize at the end of that race remains so compelling, so addictive, so gorgeous, we keep running and stumbling and sacrificing and competing to catch it. That's exactly what you're talking about, right? It's exactly what I'm talking about. You just, it's, I couldn't describe it any other way. You just look at it. It's not, everybody said, how many times you've heard it? It's not fair. It's not supposed to be fair. It's not, it's not supposed to be fair. Winning is not supposed to be fair. Life is not fair. There's nothing that's going to guarantee you that win. But the only thing that's going to guarantee you that loss is if you don't get in this race.

1:21:24How many people, and you talk about this all the time, about the fears and the emotions and the like, you know, just getting, just going for it. Just like here it is. Look at yourself. You've moved three different times in probably the last six months. for whatever reasons you've had, all right, and you've literally packed up and moved, like here I'm going, here I'm going, here. You got people that won't move themselves out of a chair. You've literally moved families, lives, and there's literally a fear behind every single one of those, but there was no doubt. Right. That's really well said. There was no doubt.

1:22:08That's really well said. Everything that you've done and everything that I've done, there's always been a little fear, And the fear is what allows us to be like, you know what? I'm going to throw myself over the ledge. I'm going to do this, but I have no doubt of what the end result is going to be. That's so amazing you say that. There's a group of guys, influencers, one of them you were with this morning about four weeks ago. You kind of went around the table like, what moves you? And one guy's like, hey, my dreams, you know, my confidence, my this. And so it got to me, and I think probably at that, well, anyway, I'll just say that at that table, I kind of, I said, hey, I'll be honest with you.

1:22:42I'm still afraid I'm still afraid they're like you're afraid you got this you got that I said no man I'm still afraid and it's a real afraid it's not something I'm trying to conjure up it's like a real afraid that I have however I actually think successful people have this really unique nuance of like tons of self-confidence combined with enough humility to want to keep working and learning it's a really unique look we both know people that are super confident but don't have that dose of humility where they want to work hard and want to be coached right and then you also have the people with all the humility in the world but they don't have the confidence and they're not going to win either right you have you coach people at all different levels your most successful people are your most coachable a fact fact what about when you would train kobe you say something in the book like when you first met him the first workouts or whatever like he didn't want you to make it easy on him he had no expectation no i mean just like hey listen And the thing that he said was unique about this, when we were starting to work out, one of the reporters asked him, said, oh, you hired Tim Grover, Michael's training.

1:23:45He goes, well, what have you, how do you feel about that? Kobe, and I'm going to use a little language here. He goes, I don't know. He ain't done shit for me. He goes, I'm not going to judge him by what he did last time. I want to know what he's done, what he's done for me. We relish that. Yeah. Do you relish what Jordan told him about you? tell him it's okay sell the language remember what Jordan said about you to him yeah so he just said Kobe asked him what about this guy he goes he really knows his stuff but he goes he's the biggest asshole you'll ever meet it's a great compliment right great compliment it's a great compliment because how many people when they're when they meet winners yep fold yeah they become yes men yes people yes exactly and then you have to be the person that holds them accountable and it's funny i just as you said earlier i call people out i want people to call me out on my bullshit i call them out on their bullshit you've done it with me before yeah i have i do i do with everyone and i do it not out of a place out of hate not jealous or anything like that listen the one thing that you've offered me that no one's ever offered me is your as an access to your jet all right now if i would have came when i put you in check if that was coming out of hate that offer wouldn't be there you know it's coming out of love 100 by the way you also have helped my son unselfishly and by the way never told me that you were doing it only through him do i find these things out that tim does that's what i meant by a real man i think the winners have this thing by the way you should use it you're the type of person will never take me up on it and you should but I have to tell you guys that I think one of the things that the winners have is they lose this expectation that's gonna be easy they lose the expectation that they're going to be liked they lose the expectation that it's gonna be perfect like once you sort of give it up you've actually surrendered to the fact this is not going to be easy people aren't going to like me I am going to be judged I am going to be disliked it's not all that bad when it starts happening to you and that's what winning is about in order to win you have those are all the things that are in the unforgiving race.

1:26:00So you already know they're there. You know they're there. And then people are still distracted by it. You know everything that you just mentioned is in this race. So if you already know it's there, you know what your opponents are. Deal with it. You also, though, like there's a level even past that. Like every time I'm reading the book, I'm like, okay, oh, there's another level, another level, another level. And you articulate it. You've been up close and you're including yourself to like the biggest winners. in sports. So like there's layers to this that only someone in that type of proximity to it would know too.

1:26:35But so many people are governed, like what we're really describing right now is they're governed by their emotions. Yes. Their emotions rule their lives, right? And you talk in the book about mindset and thoughts being bigger and more important than that. So this is so huge what he's about to share with you right now, because right now, some of you, you're driving right now or you're on a treadmill somewhere or you're watching this on youtube and you're being governed by your emotions it's literally dictating the direction of your life your effort your belief level your confidence all of it but the highest level winners do what your mind has to be stronger than your feelings your mind has to be stronger than your feelings think about every poor decision you've made in your life, there was more emotion that was involved in it than there was mind.

1:27:26Every single one of them. Think about it. It really was. Your feelings keep you in bed. Your mind tells you, get up. Think about it. Every single day, your mind is the one that tells you, get up. And your feelings are like, eh, an extra 30 minutes. Just roll this. Don't worry about it. I can tell you this. every bad decision I made has been ruled by emotion. Guess what? You just said that. You and I have both. Yeah. You and I both. Keep making me think. Every single one. Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Listen, it's not the popular decision. You are going to hurt. You are going to piss a lot of people off.

1:28:10Yep. All right. Are you going to piss them off for the short term? Are you going to piss them off for the long term? I've had so many individuals, athletes, that I used to train back in the day, and I used to tell them, you're not good enough to go to the NBA. You would evaluate them and be willing to tell them. I would tell them. I said, you're not good enough to, but you can make a ton of money overseas. I said, what do you want to do? I said, overseas, you can make. I said, you can literally have a very long career, be extremely popular over there, live a nice lifestyle and be successful for numerous years.

1:28:45Grover, you don't know what you're talking about. Okay, I'm telling you. 10 years come by, they're chasing the NBA dream. They don't make it. I run into them and they come up to me and says, you're the only one that told me. You're the only one that told me. Do you think the fact that they deny is an interesting thought? Like you are candid with me, right? Like I actually look at, my dad was candid with me. so I maybe it's because I played sports I don't know but like I look at people who are really candid and frank with me is like that's actually real belief in love 100 % but don't you think most people that don't win and I'm not calling myself a winner but I think most people that don't win don't view candor and direct feedback that way they view it as hate or criticism or you you're you're rooting against me or don't you agree like I actually have very few people who are candid with me yeah and those are some of the most cherished people in my life Right.

1:29:38Well, here's the thing. So when's the right? When's the when's the best time for the truth? All the time. It's the best time for the truth all the time. The truth should lead to more action. But what does it usually do? It leads to more emotions. wow that's really true so when you tell somebody the truth so what's the first thing anybody in a relationship you go in a relationship with business personal whatever it is the first thing they always ask me honesty honesty is the most important until you're honest until you're honest yeah then the emotions get in and then everything goes haywire then your mind still Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.

1:30:23That's awesome. I have one of the great fitness icons of all time right here. It's Mike O 'Hearn. So, Mike, thanks for being here, man. Thank you, man. So good to have you, man. Thank you. Someone said to you, because I think, like, it's rare that you put someone who's the best on the planet at something in front of you. Like, on the earth spinning right now. And we said, who in the last 25 years, let's say, take that window of time, just that basic window of time, which is a fair window. who's probably the healthiest fittest person the icon that sustained it grown it and got more fit and also helped more people get there too that he trains with it would be this human right sitting next to me so what does that i know we've talked a lot about it like if it's hard to describe yourself i have a hard time doing it it's like i'm not even sure how i am you know i'm just that way right but let me ask you something seriously what's that mindset like like don't sugarcoat it no bs don't be humble is it just like you want to crush everybody is that you're trying to chase the best you?

1:31:18Is it just like this stacking of disciplines that's built you into this thing? Like, what is it that's like this world-class mindset you hold? Do you know? I would say it's, I want to be the very, the number one guy. I want people to be able to say, hey, I want to do a Mike O 'Hearn. I want to be like Mike O 'Hearn when I'm that. And that is, it's just that long period of time. And it's not just, I don't want you guys to sit there. And I guess I want people to live what I've lived and stop giving the excuses and stop saying, I'm 30 now. It's downhill from here. I do pretty good. College, I peaked.

1:31:55And then it's like there's a thing called science. And science will show you what's possible, what's not possible. There is something that's called heart that can break that and something that can set it apart. And I'm just saying that the one thing that we're doing now, and I'm lucky enough to be around is to be around doctors and science and actually doing tests now going why is why is it that i got to be able to do this for such a long period of time and not just as a average joe because everybody's like as long as i can be healthy fuck healthy i'm sorry it's all right bleep that out but be a freaking superhero for your whole life yes and then so i guess for me it's consistency is me describing myself, but the hunger to be the very number one.

1:32:43Yes. Yes. What's the next five or 10 years look like for you, do you think? We know what the past looked like. We know what the present looks like. We're going to do more of these, but I'm going to have you back here in five years. What do you think? I love the purchasing properties and commercial real estate. I love this. And it's something that, again, I think you agree with this. You can be around your friends, but you need some elite people that are raising you up. And I've got that and I've had that in the last 10 years my life has completely changed to the point of where I'm doing all charity and I'm around guys that are better than me yeah in other facets and and they make you stand up and go listen this this is great yeah what you're doing but I need you here yes this is what you need to do now you need to man all these old people in your life yeah and so I you buy my property you think we think we see in movies more properties leads in movies and continued to travel the world and talk yeah do you think you'd be even more fit i do listen i'm i'm as much as i got crazy this year i already told my girl and i said i want to even be better than i was for new year's i love this brother i love you inspire me thanks man no you inspire me you do like you're inspiring to me this is that's a fun that's a fun love oh is this your ride yeah this is how you're getting home helicopters coming right over the ocean um Yeah, we're going to do more of this.

1:34:05This went too fast. But it's just something that when you can push somebody that's already at a pinnacle level, that's badass. It is badass. And that's why I try to surround myself with guys like you. And like you just said, that's part of the formula, everybody, is that you surround yourself with people who do make you better. Whatever the industry is, it doesn't even matter. They just make you want to be better by their example, not their yelling and screaming. Right? Their example does. Thank you for saying that, Delphi. It's a fact. The other thing I want to tell everybody that when you're listening to Mike, there's a uniqueness to him that I want to point out.

1:34:33It's that not only can he do these things, but he can articulate them. That's rare for an athlete It's rare for a business person to be able to articulate it The reason I point that out to you is you can get Mike to come speak to your organization You can have him come talk to your group. He can come do he can do in spirit inspirational talks fitness talks This is someone that you want to bring into your company to have speak to you And he also somebody just by following him on social media will alter your life You you will have no excuses. You will be inspired, right? You will see one of the great lives being lived But there's also all this fitness stuff, all this information out there.

1:35:06This is the Ed Myron Show.