In short
Podcast Summary: The Ed Mylett Show - Episode with Dr. Benjamin Hardy
Episode Title
Why Thinking Bigger Isn’t Enough Episode Description In this episode, Ed Mylett interviews Dr. Benjamin Hardy, an organizational psychologist, about the misconceptions surrounding success and growth. They explore the idea that traditional goal-setting may be holding individuals back from achieving their true potential, emphasizing the importance of setting "impossible goals" with unreasonable timeframes.
Key Themes and Discussions
The Misconception of Success
- Success Myths: Many people fail to achieve their potential due to limiting beliefs about what success looks like.
- False Goals: Setting safe and achievable goals may create a false sense of accomplishment, leading to stagnation.
Impossible Goals and Timeframes
- Defining Impossible Goals: Hardy advocates for setting seemingly unattainable goals with short deadlines (e.g. "100x" growth in two years) to eliminate inefficient pathways.
- Clarity through Urgency: A compressed timeline forces individuals to focus only on the most effective actions needed to achieve their goals.
The Importance of Mindset
- Future-Driven Mindset: The emphasis should be on allowing the future to shape present decisions rather than relying on past experiences.
- Radical Honesty: Individuals must be frank with themselves about their current efforts and goals to achieve exponential growth.
Simplifying Systems for Growth
- Complexity as a Barrier: Complexity is the enemy of execution. Simplifying systems increases effectiveness and scalability.
- Strategic Psychology Framework:
- Frame: The goals that shape your perspective.
- Floor: What you do not do; the limits you set based on your goals.
- Focus: Directing efforts towards relevant and impactful actions.
Accountability in Leadership
- True Accountability: Leaders must hold themselves and their organizations accountable to their goals and be willing to discard lower-level objectives.
- Signal vs. Noise: Effective leaders and organizations are clear about their purpose (signal) and eliminate distractions (noise).
Holistic Time Concept
- Integration of Past, Present, and Future: The past, present, and future influence each other, but the future should direct current actions to avoid stagnation.
Key Takeaways
- Challenge Comfort Zones: Goals should push boundaries to trigger growth and innovation.
- Eliminate Complexity: By focusing on high-impact goals, individuals can strip away unnecessary tasks and distractions.
- Accountability is Critical: Leaders must own their floor (what they say no to) and maintain clarity in communication and objectives.
- Use Technology Wisely: New tools should enhance efforts towards big goals rather than complicate existing processes.
Conclusion This episode is a powerful reminder to rethink traditional approaches to success. By embracing the idea of impossible goals, simplifying systems, and fostering accountability, individuals can unlock their true potential and drive significant growth.
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For more insights and practical steps toward becoming the best version of yourself, be sure to listen to the full episode on The Ed Mylett Show.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28So, hey guys, listen, we're all trying to get more productive. $10 ,000 worth of courses that are in there that come with the app. Also, some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content in there on a regular basis, like having the Avengers of personal development and business in one app. And I'm honored that he asked me to be a part of it as well and contribute on a weekly basis, and I do. So go over there and get signed up. You're going to get a free tuition-free voucher to go to an event with Brendan and myself and a bunch of other influencers as well, so you get a free event out of it also.
0:53So go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed.
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2:19This is The Ed Miland Show. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So my guest today, I got to tell you, I was just telling him off camera. When he came on the show, I would say that probably less than 5 % of my audience knew who he was. And by the time that interview was over, I was hearing terms like masterclass from people about our first kind of 10x conversation, 100x conversation, actually. And the feedback I got on the first show we did together was shocking about how over the top it was, about how deep and helpful the conversation was in your life and in your businesses. And I've told him privately, I'm talking about household name CEOs that run some of the biggest companies in the world have told me personally how much our first conversation made an impact on them and in their company.
3:09Luckily for you guys, he has a new book out and his books are detailed. They're deep and you need to read them a couple of times because there's so much information. The new one is The Silence of Scaling. It's right in front of him here. We're going to talk about business today, all things scaling with a guy that when he writes a book, he goes to levels most people don't. So Dr. Benjamin Hardy, welcome back to the show. Ed, it's really fun. Thank you, man. You just got a great energy, man. Thank you. So do you. By the way, he's an organizational psychologist and he's like business psychology, but we're not going to hold that against him today.
3:45We're actually going to talk. So let's talk about scaling. Scaling is this fancy word like grow your business, expand it. That's what we're going to talk about today. Growing and expanding your business. Scaling is like the nouveau terminology. When we talk about scaling, I always say in life, complexity is the enemy of the execution, of executing. You talk about systems and if you're going to scale, the entrepreneur's tendency is to complicate things. What happens when they do that? You can't scale a complex system. It just can't happen. So you're going in too many different directions you've got too many competing goals often goals you're not even aware of right so i guess to keep it simple uh human beings were driven by our future like this is one of the big insights in neuroscience positive psychology is our future shapes our present and basically as humans our present is filtered by the future that we have so our psychology is shaped by our future but also the systems that we build is shaped by our goals and so all human systems are driven by goals.
4:40And I don't think people appreciate how big that means. Because if you set proper goals, you can create simple systems that scale. I mean, this is what all the top thinkers, even yourself just said, Steve Jobs, you have to take something that's complex and make it simple. And so the real lever is that it comes down to your goals and setting the right scale goal that forces you to simplify. You have a process in the book. What do you call it? The scale old something. Scaling framework. Framework. We might as well start with gigantic value. One of the things I love about two people I've interviewed today, they give you what's in the book, not being afraid that somehow you won't get the book because you know what's in it because the book's so thick we can't cover it all in an hour.
5:20So what's the framework? Help all these entrepreneurs out there or want to be entrepreneurs. Yeah. So the framework is, it's a psychological model. Actually, I call it strategic psychology, but basically it's frame floor focus. So as people are framing, you and I actually talked a lot about frame before. I know you love that concept. The interesting thing about frame is that our frame is fundamentally based on our goals. Of course, our past shapes our frame. And so I think a really important thing for people to know is that the past and the future are tools for how we operate in the present. But the future holds 10x, 100x the weight of the past.
5:53And so it is our goals that shape our frame. And so basically your frame in the present is finding signal and noise, right? And what is signal is things that are based on your goals. and so everything we do is looking for pathways towards our goals and so our future shapes our frame and it shapes what we see it shapes what's relevant it shapes you know so anyone listening to this the only reason they're listening is because this has some relevance to their goal right otherwise this would be noise and they wouldn't have no they'd be somewhere else right and so it puts a lot of responsibility on us to know that our future and our goals shape our frame it shapes everything we do and it also shapes the quality of the pathways that we can find forward So if we can set better goals and, you know, basically in the book, I talk about impossible goals, right?
6:35Correct. Impossible goals and impossible deadlines. The reason that frame is so powerful is that it forces out all inefficient pathways. So if you have a goal that's 10 or a hundred X and it's rather than 10 years away, it's two years away. Now, most pathways don't work. So now you have to filter for really effective pathways. Stay on here. Stay on. Yeah. By the way, this is why I love Dr. Hardy's work because it's where psychology meets business and they intersect. Most people don't do both. So let's just slow down a little bit for everybody. The framework again is bang, bang, bang. Frame, floor, focus.
7:09So your frame is your goal. Yep. And when you have a better goal, it raises your floor. Yep. So your floor is defined by what you don't do. So Michael Porter, a strategy expert, he said basically strategy is what you don't do. Okay. So when you have a better goal, almost everything goes away. So for us, you want to raise your floor so high that almost nothing is relevant. Yes. You can only then focus on the most scalable paths. You create scalable paths, a scalable model. And so the point of the super high frame is that it raises your floor so high that almost everything becomes noise. This is exactly why I loved our last conversation.
7:43It's correlated to the last one too. Sure. Okay. And so this is really critical. I want all of you that think you've got a big vision for your business or you have some goals to like, now we're going to lean in a little bit. When you say that, I think of Steve Jobs. So I've got to know Wozniak very well, who was his co-founder with him. And then Tim Cook and I serve on a board together. So the guy that kind of currently runs that company. So I've got a lot of insight. I'm sort of fascinated with Jobs. He's awesome. He's awesome. His personality was ornery. He didn't always shower all the time.
8:11He's just a unique, obsessed, crazy person. Having said all of that, what he certainly had was impossibly thinking. I have a chapter in my book called Be an Impossibility Thinker or Achiever. and impossible deadlines. And so you submit that in the book. You say there's a big, huge difference between a bold vision and an impossible goal with those deadlines. What is the difference and how does someone distinguish between the two things? So I'll give an example. There was a lady who we were advising and she's in the credit industry. And basically she has a software. She was trying to get it out there.
8:47And so she set what she felt was a bold vision. It was 10x of her current clients. She had 10 clients. She wanted to get 100 clients. The problem with that vision was that it basically enabled her to continue doing everything she was doing before. It was very linear. And so we said, that goal is not impossible enough to shatter your assumptions, to shatter your thinking, and to force you to find a new pathway. So she's like, okay, I'll try it. So she basically said, I'm going to go for 1 ,000 clients. She had no clue how to do it in 90 days. And she realized there was no way she knew how to do it.
9:14And so that was an impossible goal. It was to basically 100 extra clients in 90 days. And so going back to pathways thinking, which is a core, it's a core framework in psychology that everything we're doing is pathways to a goal. So with a thousand clients in 90 days, she was basically just thinking, I have no clue how to do it. And so she sat, journaled, pondered, prayed. And I know you're huge on prayer. And basically a thought came to her that why am I not partnering with software companies who already are serving tens of thousands of these clients? And so basically she reached out to a software company and a day later she went to a from 10 clients to 8 ,000 clients.
9:48Hello. And so it was like a, it was an 800X jump in a week because she went for an impossible goal. Would you call that like asking a bigger question? Is that part of the training or no? No, no, no. The point of the impossible goal is literally again to force out all bad paths. And so like for her, she was pretty much door to door selling. She was going to every single one of these credit repair companies. There's 50 ,000 of them and she was knocking them one at a time. And so when you go for the impossible goal, literally you don't know how to solve it. So there's actually a lot of research on this.
10:15In psychology, they call them stretch goals. But the actual definition of a stretch goal is it's an organizational goal with an objective probability that's unknown, but is basically impossible according to your current knowledge. And so you don't know how to do it. And so the whole point of her thinking about, in this case, I want to get a thousand clients in 90 days, is she couldn't get there by knocking on doors. She couldn't cold call her way there. And so it forced her to find better paths. yes and so it forced her to you know and it's always gonna be through a different who right it's always gonna be through a different distribution partner a different strategic partner and so rather than going directly to in this case rather than going directly to the companies she now went to software companies that serve those companies but serve tens of thousands of them and so it when you go for the impossible it forces you to find much more efficient paths that you couldn't be finding otherwise interesting again i reflected jobs i'm giving a talk right now where I play a clip of him.
11:08And it's basically him describing the iPad before it existed. And it's him saying, here's what we got right here. We got this thing. It's going to be a book. You're going to be able to open it. And it's going to be this. And it's going to cost us$10 ,000. And it's going to cost us$3 ,000. And our competition is doing something like it right now. But they suck at it. We're going to do it right. But it's this whole thing of him laying out this impossible vision and then compressing the time frame. That's the big thing. There's these hilarious clips on social media of me. We've been laughing about them where I misspeak in an interview.
11:36and I say, I'm manipulating time. Cavemen lived 300 years ago. I just conflated a sentence on an eighth interview of a day. But the point I'm making in that is condensing timeframes and shrinking your time horizon. It's why I own an island. It's why I'm wealthy. It's why you're sitting oceanfront here today is my proclivity to look in shorter timeframes, what people would call unreasonable windows of time. So what's new to me about what you're talking about is not just this bigger idea but then also the unreasonable time frame as well or impossible time frame right so talk about that why is that a critical part of it's not just the big 100x goal it's now attaching to it an impossible theoretically time frame is very critical so elon musk said if a timeline is long it's wrong i don't know if you've ever heard of his five-step algorithm basically his algorithm is you always want to question requirements because most people have very false requirements to a goal so if like for example someone was thinking about how how do i get an island right They might think there's 50 ,000 steps to get there.
12:36You might say, well, if you actually just went for the island, there's probably three. So let me give an example. There was a 22-year-old guy who I was talking to, and I said, what's your biggest dream? And he said, I want to own a European soccer team. And I said, well, when are you going to do it? He said, age 55. Okay, I said, cool, you got 33 years to do it. I said, what would happen if you went for it by age 30? So now you got eight years. And he said, well, and they started getting nervous. He's like, well, I feel like I got to do this, this, and this to get there. I want to get a PhD. I want to run a firm first.
13:03and he starts laying out all these false requirements right and i said well if you just went forward at age 30 how much of that stays relevant and he's like i don't know right and so what the what the compressed timeline does and by the way again back to the idea that the future is only a psychological tool to shape the present like um basically the old linear model of time puts the past and future outside of yourself right but like psychology neuroscience shows these things are just in your head they shape your frame and so the future is in your head and it's a psychological tool for stripping out the nonsense.
13:35And so for him, age 30 is really arbitrary. Like it's just a, but if he moves the goal forward, now all of these false steps that he really didn't need go away. And so he's forced to find just a direct pathway to his goal. And so what we all do is we end up having a lot of false requirements to our goal. And so that makes a complex system. Now we have five goals that we have to achieve in order to get here. Whereas the point is to strip all those out. And so the short timeline literally forces out all false paths. Oh my gosh. And it forces out complexity. That's the point. So that's because by the way, it sounds really comes from false goals.
14:11Oh my gosh. Cause that, that idea of making things less complex is so difficult for most leaders because the longer you do something, the more, you know, the more you want to add to your presentation, one more thing. And here's another thing. And here's another step and another step so that's how you actually force out it's that extreme frame so the extreme the extreme frame of him going for that impossible goal he's going to own a european soccer team but in an extremely unreasonable timeline forces out complexity because now all of the false requirements the false steps the means goals so like one of my favorite quotes and i think i even possibly shared with you last time is we're kept from our goal not by obstacles but by a clear path to a lesser goal so for him a phd is a lesser goal for him running a firm's a lesser goal he wants the one goal.
14:54But he's laid out all these requirements of lesser goals, which, you know, this is why people have complex systems is because they have too many goals. And a lot of their goals are hidden to them. Like as an example, I was recently talking to a guy running a great firm, you know, 31 million in revenue. But he realized that he had a hidden goal to himself and it was an avoidance-based goal. He realized that his goal was to avoid what had happened to his father. His father had a big firm and it sank because he had made some bad decisions. And so he realized in thinking about that his past was shaping his goal, which you don't want.
15:24You don't want your past to shape your goal. You always, and I think we talked about this, but you always want your present to reshape and reshape your past. But the future is really the tool you want. And you always want to be approach-based. You always want to be on offense. But for him, he realized, I have this hidden goal that I didn't realize, which was avoidance-based. I was trying to avoid what happened to my dad. And so he had one goal over here, which is his company goal. And then he had this hidden goal of avoiding what had happened to his dad. That's complexity. So anytime you have multiple goals the point of a goal is to simplify a system yeah so you want one goal that essentially derails all your other goals so you can actually focus that's brilliant the fact that you take this off ramp because of the clearer path to the easier goal it's brilliant i was thinking of uh i'm just thinking of you know people have been blessed to be around that same board i'm on with cookie is also jerry jones is on that board yeah and he's such a great example of what you're describing he's a younger guy doesn't really have the wealth and there becomes this opportunity this crazy goal in his mind.
16:18I'm going to buy the Dallas Cowboys. He doesn't have the money. He doesn't have anywhere near the money to buy the team at the time. But what ended up happening was he could have bought an Arena League team. He could have bought a Canadian Football League team. He could have just supported Arkansas where he went to college and been a big donor there like a lot of guys do. But he had that one clear goal and what had happened. He found a way to borrow this, put that together. Pathways. Pathways, right? And then it ends up being that, I mean, I'm probably off, but I think he paid$100 million for the team, and it's now probably evaluated$8 or$10 billion.
16:50But that's the framework in the book is how the Musks, the Joneses, the Jobses, the people that end up ruling the world and changing their bloodline forever and becoming the one in their family, this is how they actually think. How did, speaking of iconic people, this is in my notes to ask you, so I'm going to ask you. So, hey, guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future, you got to change the things you're doing.
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20:11How did JFK's moonshot affect your thinking for this, or sculpt it at least? So, admittedly, I started the book with Musk. Everything that was going on with Musk, he obviously has an impossible goal. Go to Mars. And if you think about pathways and partners, like he did not want to get involved in politics. And I think the further along in the story he gets, the more we realize like, you know, it was very costly for Musk to get involved with Trump. And obviously - You know what I mean? And so I started the book with that story and talking about how like in order to get to an impossible, you've got to go very unlikely paths and you've got to have very unlikely partners.
20:49And that ended up just being pretty crazy with where things were at. And so I was thinking about the moon mission. And that's obviously like a really clear cut example of a seemingly impossible goal, a really seemingly impossible deadline, which was seven years. But the funny part was like that was a very linear process. Like basically what I lay out in the book is that Kennedy probably could have done it in three. Like if he had actually used the shorter timeline, they would have stripped away probably half of the nonsense that they did during those seven years. Well, think about it. Like they set a goal to just achieve it by the end of the decade, which is a very lazy It sounds good, but it's lazy.
21:24Yeah, it's lazy. So that's what often happens when someone has a 10-year goal. It's just lazy. And so if you just take the 10-year goal and move it to two or three, now you strip out most of the false steps. So with the NASA missions, and I spoke with a NASA engineer while writing the book, NASA is very specifically a linear process. They're very focused on safety and things like that. And so they're not like Musk. They're not breaking systems. They're not fast going. So it was a very linear process. and my argument was if they had just gone four and three they would have found a much better path they would have found a much better like probably i mean there's research that shows that 10 of what a company does is effective if you look into what nasa did and yes they changed the world like they did phenomenal things i'm not i'm not throwing shade at nasa yeah sure not right but but it's just a really good example of an impossible goal that changed the world but and he used time as a tool like he's like we're going to do it in seven years he seven years is also just still pretty far away and it and so if you if you had gone for it in half the time you probably would have found a much more effective path the thing you said in the book i was like man i think i'm not honest with myself about this stuff and so you actually state that in the book like literally i wanted to make sure i read it right so i have it right here in front of me part two is when you're talking about raising the floor because he breaks it into these different parts of the book be more honest with yourself and quit the wrong stuff faster i was just talking to john maxwell not too long ago We were on a flight together, his plane, fortunately for me.
22:49And I said, what's the biggest thing that you've shifted your mindset on leadership over the last years? He goes, well, it's actually that. I like changing my mind now. I used to think that if I changed my mind as a leader, it made me look like an inconsistent thinker. And now I realize that it makes me honest. That when I've changed my mind, I've got more information, I need to be honest with myself, and I should be open to changing my mind. so what do you mean in the book when you say be more honest with yourself and quit the wrong stuff sooner what do you mean by that so anytime you're below your floor you're saying yes to things that are essentially limiting your ability to scale right you may be scaling a fairly complex system even 10x you may be you know there's a lot of successful people that listen to this the point is is that when you're below the floor you're saying yes to things you should be saying no to and you're lying to yourself about it and so anytime you're below the floor that just means that you're actively lying to yourself, whether you're justifying it.
23:44So for example, there's a lot of people who I've interviewed who are doing 50 things and they believe that they're all synergistic, right? Even I myself, like I got called out very hard by a mentor of mine. He's like, Ben, you're doing 50 things. Like be honest with yourself. Like if you just focused on writing books, like, but he's like, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this. I was like, and I thought I was focused, right? And so I was doing things below my own floor and I was saying yes to things that, you know, you could justify, but they're extremely costly. And I think like one of the things that I've learned is, is that the further, you know, the further you go in your learning, the more you realize just how costly a yes is.
24:20So it's like, yeah, this thing might make you a lot of money or maybe a good opportunity, but the cost is, is insane when you think about what you could be doing. And if you think about sports, like it's the errors, right? It's, it's, it's the mistakes that lose championships. And that error came from a lack of preparation. So it's really, it's really the errors that that really can sink companies that mess you up and so that's when you're lying to yourself is when you when you don't admit that you're saying yes to the things that you shouldn't be saying yes to and that you're really not focused you said something a minute ago about linear thinking and i i've read this so i know what it means but i think i glossed over that where people listening i've made an assumption that people know what that means in the context that you use it in and you don't like linear thinking i think is fair to say right So what exactly is it and how does one become disruptive?
25:09What's the antithesis of linear thinking? So linear. An example too. Yeah. So linear thinking comes from linear time. And so linear time is where the past shapes the present and the present shapes the future. So an example of that in business would be, I did 5 million last year. So let's use that as the baseline for what we're going to do next year. We'll go for 6 million, 7 million, right? So that's where companies are doing 20 % a year, 30 % a year. Gosh, this is good. Right. And so if you use the past as the basis for your future, that means you're using the past as the basis for your goals.
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25:36And why it's linear is that if you're using the past as the basis for your future, then you're going to continue doing what you're already doing. And so you're not disrupting, right? And so even Peter Drucker said most firms are essentially perpetuating today. They're just doing what they were doing yesterday, right? But he said that the future is meant to disrupt the present. The future is meant to be the enemy of today. In other words, if you have a new model, right, the whole purpose of a new future or a bigger future is that it simplifies and it disrupts what you're doing in the present. Shoot.
26:02That's what you're supposed to do. But then you have to be honest with yourself, right? So that's the whole transformation is if you have the massive goal and you say, and then you look at your current life from the goal, from the future, if you let the future shape the present, then you're basically, you have to say, is the juice still worth a squeeze on these things? And all of it starts to fall below the floor because there's only a few pathways up to that impossible goal. God, you're really making me think. I use a term called legacy thinking when I interact and consult with companies that just frustrate the heck out of me.
26:31We've always done it that way. And I'm like, I'm not a legacy thinker. I'm a future thinker. Sure. But maybe I'm not. Based on your definition, I do do a lot of that. Well, last year we did 8 million, so we could do 12 million. That's linear thinking. And it's also a form of legacy thinking. We did it before, so we can do a little bit more now. In other words, I'm using my past. To shape your future. Correct. Exactly what you just said. So the whole time you've been saying that, because a lot of people listen to podcasts and they don't do the hard work of listening to, how does this apply to me?
27:00They discard the things they think that don't apply to them. And oftentimes it's the very thing that does. and it would be very easy for me to go, I'm a future thinker. I'm a visionary. No, not so much based on your definition. I use the past to shape my thinking way too often, and I do it regularly. And then you don't know what you don't know when you're using the past. You don't even know what you're missing. And so I'll give you one of my rubs, and you talk about it in the book. I'd love you to help everybody with this. Not everybody gets to this stage, but they should be at this stage, I think, from day one, if they're really thinking big and as an impossibility thinker.
27:33I think about the businesses I'm involved with. Let's just use this podcast, for example. I want to scale it beyond me. And actually beyond my ability to influence it, like I do. My lifetime. And I thought for a long time, well, you can't. It's you. You're the host. That's all you can do. But the truth is, there's a lot of directions I could go. Just as I'm talking with you right now, this thing's going off in my mind. I've been using the past as a reference. There's all kinds of things I could be doing. How does one begin to think about scaling beyond themselves? and what are some of the key components in doing that?
28:05I think it's beautiful. So this is the thing that actually disappointed me the most. As someone who got to be around a lot of people who were heroes of mine, I began to realize they couldn't scale beyond themselves. And so they were basically like the king or queen of what they were doing. So in Jim Collins' language, that's level four leadership, right? So that's the genius with a thousand helpers. They have to be the centerpiece. And so you really have to have a goal that's so big. Like, so straight up for this podcast, right? Have a goal that's so big and so urgent that it might force you out of your role to some degree, right?
28:40And it forces different thinking. This is what a lot of people won't do. So there's a lot of research that I lay out in the book about basically people who are super effective. So basically, I mean, even Bill Gates said that the average code writer is worth one ten-thousandth of a good one. So like a good code writer - I just saw that. is worth 10 ,000, right? And there's research to back that up. And so you won't get those super who's, those super talent, if you're building it around yourself, right? And so to scale at unbelievable levels, it has to be beyond you. But I have found that most entrepreneurs of various different types of companies, they want to be the centerpiece.
29:21They want to be the primary decision maker. And so for me, what that means is that their vision is too small. And they can't actually attract those super talents that are what makes scaling possible, like extreme scaling possible. And so just as an example, there was a guy who I advise. He's an incredible CEO. He took a company from like 4 million to 100 million in about three or four years. He was awesome, young guy, you know? But then I asked him, what would it take to get to a billion? And he said, I might not be able to be the CEO. Dude, that was awesome. Like it showed he learned it. He didn't need to be the guy.
29:53Like, you know, like a lot of people would be like, I have to be the guy. But he's like, you know, if we can get to a billion in two or three years, I don't need to be the CEO. I could take a different role, but I think a lot of people aren't willing to do that. I do too. I keep going back to jobs. And as I understand the story, Apple's kind of ticking along and he figures out this vision so big, I can't do this. I'm not the guy. I mean, that's when you know, that's when you know, right. As I understand the story, he starts pursuing this guy, Scully, who's running Pepsi at the time. Yep. Right.
30:21And he can't get Scully even to call him back. He can't get Scully to get interested and he finally uses the vision to get scully as i hear the story jobs picks the phone up it was in the answering machine days and leaves scully this voicemail this answering machine says hey dude i'm tired of effing calling you when you're tired of selling sugar water to kids and you finally want to go change the world give me an effing call back yep and scully kind of rolls his eyes his wife hears the the voicemail the answering machine and goes well you kind of do sell sugar water to kids why don't you go do something to change the world and he brings scully over because he knew what now as it turns out they brought jobs back because scully ran into the ground at one point or the group did but the point is is that even jobs as a young man who i admire as a business guy had exactly what you just described it's got a scale beyond me it ended up bringing him back in later but the point is at that time it's exactly what you just described the other thing i think of when i think of him and i'll stop talking about him is he's awesome well he was convicted i think of the great entrepreneurs that i know that many of you don't know.
31:21They're just people you wouldn't know that have held on to their company and never exited or they've exited and they're just private people. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. When your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again. You fix the problem. So why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use Indeed's sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way.
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32:24So, wanna drive? CarMax. Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. You say conviction is the currency of scaling. What does that mean and how does somebody develop it? So, when you go for a true scale goal, which most companies don't. I mean, most companies are going for true scale once you actually go for it so as an example there's a guy who is a friend of mine named mark he has an advertising agency and they're doing 20 million it took him 30 years to get there then he's like learned some of these scaling principles like okay i gotta go for 100 million in three years again it took him 30 years to get to 20 but once he set the true scale goal he realized back to the point he had been lying to himself their their agency they are the best in the world at one thing but they had become overly complex they'd been saying yes to things that were below their floor and ultimately they weren't scaling.
33:13So he was lying to himself. And so once he actually set a true scale goal, and there's a lot of research on this that says impossible goals, they redefine who you are, but they also force you to define yourself. And I think a lot of people are unwilling to define themselves. Like we do this, right? This is what we do. We don't do other things. We don't do these five other things. We do this. And so once he set that scale goal, he realized he had been lying to himself and he'd been lying to his clients. And so that's where he built extreme conviction is because he could clearly define himself, right?
33:41He stopped being noise in the marketplace. He became signal. He's like, this is what I'm about. And so he went to all of his clients, right? What had happened was, is their firm was so good at, at scaling companies in like mass media. They diluted themselves, um, into like Amazon and social media and stuff. And so he went to all of his clients and said, I want to apologize to you. He said, we, we have not been serving you the way you should be served. You wanted lesser services and we gave them to you. And we are setting your business up for failure. And so he said, we're giving you these small packages and your company is going to fail.
34:15He said, the only way that you can succeed is if you bring your product into mass market. And he's like, you're going to have to bring me three, 500 grand right now. And a lot of them moved over because he had such conviction. He had such clarity and definition of who he was. But in order to do that, they actually had to raise the floor and stop doing all of their other nonsense. And so his big future, his big impossible goal forced him to define himself. It forced him to say, this is who I am. This is what I do. I don't do this for 50 other things. I'm going to stop lying to myself. I'm going to stop lying to my clients.
34:44I'm going to stop lying to the world and trying to be five things. And instead I'm going to say, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. This is what I do. And when you speak with that level of honesty, that level of conviction, that level of clarity, now all of a sudden you're a rare signal in the environment. Whereas everyone else is trying to be five things. It's like, no, this is what we are. This is what we do. We're the best in the world at it. And then you can tell people when they're making bad decisions. Really good. You've used this term a few times. I want to unpack it a little bit more.
35:08Noise and signal. Yeah. Right. And it's a terminology that you're familiar with and I now am because of your work. But unpack that a little bit. How does one know if they're a signal or a noise? Yeah. So signal means that it's relevant. Or participating in it. Yeah. So signal means something is relevant. It stands out. It's clear. It's understandable. Think about it as light, right? It's clear. It's comprehensible. And signal is always based on your goal, right? And so if you have a goal, then some things are signal, meaning they're relevant to where you're going. And then everything else gets blocked out as noise.
35:40And so in psychology, we call that selective attention, right? We're always filtering for relevant signal to get us to where we're trying to go. And so the problem when you're diluted, when you're unfocused, when you're distracted is, is that if you're doing multiple things, right, and you're making multiple different offers, right out into the marketplace, there's no clarity. And so there's no clear signal in what you're saying. So that makes you noise in the marketplace where it's hard for people to understand what you're saying. And so when you can come out with just absolute clarity, this is, you know, actually speaking truth and people can hear it and they can, they can hear it in the sea of noise.
36:14It stands out. Someone listening to this would say, well, wait a minute, there's still verticals. I mean, when I go into a Starbucks, their signal is coffee, but you can get a breakfast sandwich too. That's not what you're saying, that there can't be a vertical or an attachment. No, there can be those. But the main signal, when people think Starbucks, they don't go yogurt. They're not there for that. Right. It's coffee, right? But I just want to make sure everyone doesn't drown that out. You're not suggesting there can't be another sell when someone's marketing a product. No, you can do that. It's just what are you?
36:45I think Starbucks can clearly define who they are and what they do, which is why they scale. They're the perfect example of scaling because they're in the business of coffee distribution and their environment. It'd be interesting how much they've truly optimized for those other things. Right? How much is the sale of those other things versus the coffee? It's probably 95 % five or less. Great point, by the way. I would love to know that data. I guarantee you most of it's probably coffee, right? I would think it is. Yeah, for sure. The CEO who says, I'm sorry, I apologize. To me, that's accountability, right?
37:15Huge. It's a huge thing. In my estimation, as I travel and speak and work with different people or if I'm coaching somebody, there is a dramatic lack of accountability in the companies that i see that are average and there is hyper accountability hyper accountability in the companies that i consider to be elite and you talk about that in the book so go ahead talk about that yeah so a system's ability to scale comes down to the accountability of the leader owning the frame and owning the floor the floor again is what you say no to and so one of the people i interviewed for this book is a guy who creates economic systems for countries.
37:49So he goes into first world countries, helps them design the economic systems, goes into third world countries, helps them, you know, and again, these are, these are systems, right? And so I asked him, what's the, what's the difference between a first world country and a third world country? And he said, one word, accountability. And so it's accountability in the system, right? And if you look at any true leader, a true leader actually holds a system accountable so that it can, so that it can scale. And if you don't have accountability, then there's a lack of focus. There's a lack of clarity. There's a lack of truth.
38:17and so accountability is just your it's essentially your accountability to your goal right and if you're not being accountable to the goal that means you're being accountable to your past you're being accountable to other people that's what creates complexity is you're saying yes to other things versus just saying this is what we're accountable to and so therefore we're saying no to everything else you're we just go with him you guys notice this like you just go if i could bring in five entrepreneurs in here that are running something they got a three-person dry cleaners, an eight-person mortgage company, a nine-person daycare, whatever they have.
38:48They want to scale. And they're in the noise sense. Even getting clear on what you want. Do you have any tactics or strategies or thoughts about how do I get my mind out of the noise? It's just very easy to be someone walks in your office with a problem, and you got to pay a bill over here, and then someone's behind on their payment there, and you got a client issue there. And all of a sudden, you've gone through your day or your week or your month or your year and you just dealt with noise and fires all day long right is there a structure a framework a thought a strategy on that i mean the easiest place to start is always the future and and that is it's a recognition that your future is shaping everything here and the problem with that person is that their past is shaping their future so like they're just doing they're in a sea of noise they have a complex system they can't get above it and so the easiest thing to do is actually to set a goal that disrupts all that that makes all that irrelevant and helps you actually start to find a simple path forward and so if you have a really high goal so like as an example if that person was it's really easy to just start using numbers so i would ask that person like literally how much revenue are you doing we're doing two million right this is crazy all right so let's just go up to 20 million if you were going to do 20 million in three years how much of this stuff can even stay almost none of it how much of the team can stay i don't know depends on if they're committed like maybe half of them right but it's going to be a different business model to 20 it's going to be a different path you're going to have a different team and so you start thinking from there and again back to drucker the future is there to simplify the present it's so good i love that that's really that's the whole the whole purpose i mean it's a technology well you're bro you're reading my mind i'm gonna ask you a curveball that's not in the book and it do it it plays right off of where you just went the future and technology to me when i think of even my own usage of ai recently amazing okay it ought to be changing what i believe is impossible in the future right and so i'm wondering your thoughts about technology and how we all should be looking at this as i just call it stretching our vision of what's possible because the future is actually here now it is and i just want to know your thoughts about that because it's not in the book, but it's like, I got you here.
40:58I got this guy that understands business and psychology better than anyone and thinking the impossible. And now we're in the midst of this AI revolution. What are your thoughts about that? I love the tools. I mean, they definitely make what used to be impossible possible. Right. And so I think that they use the tools, you know, I mean, that's what they're there for. So I think that increasingly we're going to be able to do things we couldn't do before. But I mean, even without the technology, The technology is just a propellant. But a lot of people, they won't, they can't use it effectively because they don't have a future that gives them a reason to.
41:30Right. And so if you have a massive future, you don't need the best tools. The best tools only accelerate your progress. But the reason that people can't use the tools is because they don't have a reason to. Okay. You guys, is it like just so good, right? So you say something in the book and I've been debating it and disputing it in my mind. Let's hear it. Okay. Okay.
41:55When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. you say a goal properly set is halfway reached. Yeah. And for me, I'm such a worker type of a dude. I want to know what you mean. How do you know you have a goal properly set? And why do you think that means you're halfway there?
42:35Does that mean 99.9 % of the people are not setting goals properly? Yes. Okay. So give it to us. Yeah. So, and, and, and John door actually was that one who originated that one. But, um, so a goal, a goal properly says halfway reached because a goal properly set almost removes every other option, right? And so there's - I love this thinking. Yeah, it's like if you, and so again, John Doerr said that, but the goal properly set is halfway reached because if you set the right goal, almost all the dead end paths that you would have taken and wasted decades on now become irrelevant. They become noise because those have zero efficacy for the goal, right?
43:09The goal shapes the relevant pathways. And so if you set the right goal, and the right doesn't mean it's like a perfect goal. It just means if you set an effective goal. Okay. Then what that goal does is it gets rid of lot of what you're doing it gets rid of also a lot of the options that you would have taken and wasted a lot of time on so that's the point i would say that there's there's like there's like three or four false models of goals so you hear a lot of people that say don't set any goals just focus on the process that doesn't actually work because all human beings are driven by goals of course the second one is a small goal right that's a linear goal that's just going to create complexity right so if you're going for small goals that means you're just trying to avoid failure, but that doesn't enable you to filter the best paths forward.
43:50Also just the competing goals. A lot of people have like, you know, 50 goals, right? So that's going to create a complex system that can't scale. You're going in 20 different directions. You haven't defined yourself. And then there's just a final one is actually setting a bad goal, right? So a great example of that's just Steve Ballmer, right? He set a goal to increase shareholder value, right? But he was with the company for 14 years and their value went down a lot because he wasn't focused on growth. and so you can scale the wrong thing you can you can actually set a goal and hit it and and honestly cost yourself huge in the future so it's about obviously you want to think about growth and it's about setting a goal that simplifies what you're doing and forces out all the bad paths all the dead ends yeah and you just be honest again be honest with yourself there's a lot of people who won't let go of the dead end paths like as an example i taught this to a guy he's in real estate and he said okay i'm gonna try it i'm gonna set an impossible goal he said i'm gonna go for 10 thousand units in three years.
44:43I said, awesome. I said, how much growth does that look like on your current path? He said, that's 20 years of growth, Ben. I said, perfect, perfect, impossible goal. And then he said, but I really want to have a podcast. And I said, okay, tell me why. And then he started to lie to himself. He started to say, that podcast is going to help me hit my goal. And I said, tell me why. I said, tell me how that podcast is going to help you hit the goal. And he started, that's where he started to try to justify two competing goals, which would make a a complex system. I'm not saying you can't have two goals, by the way.
45:12I'm just saying pick one like because you're not going to have both. By the way, you're competing against killers who are laser obsessed focused on the one thing they're doing. You divert your energy, your focus and your attention to two or three places. It's just going to be really hard at the top, at the top, at the top. You're playing against the best. There are levels to this thing. There are levels to life. And I promise you when you walk into a room of the best of the best, they are killers and they are not diverting their focus. They are thinking very, very big and they are lasered in on that thing.
45:40I'll give you an example. This is a silly one, but it's out of my own life. The theory of when you set an impossible goal with an impossible time frame, it eliminates all the crappy options is really true. I've just had a lot of health stuff this year. You and I were talking about it off camera. Before I say this, I don't want any messages from people telling me this was unhealthy and all that other stuff, okay? I set a goal last month to lose 20 pounds in a month, which I know I get all that, okay? I know. I don't care. I'm going to lose 20 pounds in a month. right so i set that goal to lose the 20 pounds in a month and i'm actually going to lose 30 pounds in 60 days is the entire goal but for what i want to do is shrink the time frame it's an impossible goal but here's what it did it eliminated every part of bs thinking i could possibly come up with should i go keto should i do this it like hey dude your caloric restriction needs to be crazy you need to be in the gym doing cardio a couple times you know all the things it's calories in calories out what's my protein and it eliminated all these silly paths and it was like hey right to the point.
46:36You've got this crazy goal. This is what you got to do. It eliminated all these other options. Should I eat kiwi or fruit or doesn't matter? Like I got to do it. Right. And so although it wasn't business or life, it was an impossible goal, impossible time for him. I lost 22. Right. And by the way, feel great doing it. And I'm going to crush the 30 thing. The point is, is that maybe it is unhealthy. Maybe it's not even healthy to be a crazy entrepreneur all of your life. But if you're going to be one, you might as well be crazy while you're doing it. right and so this stuff is true the number one thing that crazy goal with the crazy time frame did impossible eliminated all the options you eliminated the weird options yes and you said it simplified your thinking it focused me in on exactly what i needed to do as opposed to going and i know everyone's going yeah that's so dangerous i look okay all right but listen i didn't want to lose it over nine months when i could lose it in a month well all you did was lose water no i didn't i drank a ton of water trust me i was so overweight my body's like please drop this weight.
47:32But the point being is that that impossible goal, impossible timeframe was actually easier, I think, than losing six pounds last month to your former theory or the current theory. I really believe me losing six pounds in a month would have been harder for me than just, I'm obsessed. And to the point is I didn't do this casually. Every second of the day I'm thinking about, babe, what's the, what's the caloric intake if I eat six green beans, right? I'm literally, 30 minutes of cardio. What's my heart rate need to be? It's precise, but simple so that I could scale that thing in my life. All right, last thing.
48:09I want to go back to some original work we do. This has been flipping awesome as usual. By the way, he's the founder of scaling.com too, and we're going to promote the book in a second in a minute. At the end of the book, you do this thing on holistic time and linear time. I'm going to throw two things at you. What the heck is holistic time number one and also how does one know what frame they're operating at so it's two totally disconnected questions but i'm gonna let you run with in other words if an entrepreneur is in here thinking i don't am i what frame am i in am i in the past frame yeah am i in the current frame or am i in the future frame how do i know and then just what the holistic time thing is because i think it's a cool concept yeah so holistic time just to answer that and then i'll tell you how you can know if you're operating from your past from your future friends holistic time is the psychological appreciation that the past present and future are all happening right now So like psychologically, your past is shaping your present and your future is shaping your present.
48:58But what the research basically shows is that the future weighs 10 to 100 X the past. Of course, the past impacts us, but we have the power to shape and reshape it continuously. And so rather than separating these things, like the past is way over here. It's outside of me and it's driving me. Right. And the future is out there. I don't know it. It's just a recognition. All these things are happening now. And as I shape one, I reshape the other. Right. And so that's holistic time. And the main insight, by the way, of that is that the future shapes the present and the present shapes the past. And that's a really important point.
49:29I remember this last time it took me a little bit to process that, but he can prove it to you. It actually is true. Yeah, I mean, the future, and we've talked about this a lot, the future is the primary thing shaping everything about who you are and what you're doing, what pathways you're taking in the present. If you move the goal much higher, most of what you'd be doing right now would be irrelevant, right? And it'd be those wacky pathways you got to get rid of. But also just the beauty of that it's always you in the present that shapes the meaning of your past. no matter what it was. And it is your responsibility in the present to reshape and redefine what it means.
49:56And it doesn't own you, you own it. And so that's holistic time. And so you can know if you're operating linearly again, or you're operating from your past, if you're pretty much just doing the same thing you're doing yesterday. And if you're not scaling, truly, if you're growing slow, and if you have a lot of complexity, that story you gave of the person with the washing machine, that's a person stuck in their past. They're not moving quickly, They're not making big decisions. If you're operating from your future, there's a lot of courage. There's a lot of letting things go. There's a lot of disappointing people.
50:26There's a lot of simplifying systems and getting rid of stuff that is the legacy, which was awesome, but it's no longer relevant to the new future. So if you're in, if you're operating from the future, you're having to be a lot more truthful. You're having to make a lot of decisions in the present that are going to, they're going to disappoint the people that were from your past, but you're then going to make better decisions. and if you do it in an honest and a respectful way they'll get it because people appreciate honesty and they appreciate you just telling them the truth and so yeah if you're operating from the future every day looks and feels really different every day looks and feels really powerful and you start to see pathways to things that you thought were impossible and you start to get there you start you start to have those regular experiences every day you start to normalize it and you start to you start to scale really that's what you start to do is you start to just your growth starts to get crazy it's how you scale it's how you scale your life uh every time i talk to you i i want to run with you like i want to mentally run with you i want to get inside your brain i want to you're i wouldn't call you a contrarian thinker because that would make it almost seems odd it's not that it's a um it's a big thinker it's a future thinker it's a creator type thinker not a replicator type thinker for sure and um i love that you back everything up with science and neuroscience i love all of everything you do and i already know i'm gonna get messages from my most successful business friends listen it's gonna go okay this dude blew my mind again that's what you do you make here's what you do you make me think about how i think and that isn't that's very very unusual that someone can compel you to really think through when you think you're not a limited thinker maybe you are when you think you're a great leader maybe not so much when you think you have a big vision maybe you don't and you make me challenge all of the uh things that are acceptable in my life that don't need to be that really are unacceptable so thank you you're awesome ed speaking honestly you are one of the funnest people to talk to you serve it up so fun and so we just easily and you just you just you have powerful energy so just thank you well bro i love your work like i i love your work it's why you're back here again by the way guys you got to get the book it's called the science of scaling dr benjamin hardy his books are great you guys like it's not an just an everyday read i'm so sick of reading the same book over and over again with a different author and a different title and when the reason i like uh benjamin stuff so much is like it's not the same book it's a different book than you've ever read before.
52:58So go grab it, you guys. All right, God bless you. Max out your life. Share this episode. This is The Ed Myron Show.
From the publisher
What if everything you believe about success is actually slowing you down?
In this conversation with Dr. Benjamin Hardy, we get real about why most people aren’t achieving at the level they’re capable of—and how to flip that. I told Ben right at the top of the show: our last interview turned heads. The kind of feedback we got—from everyday entrepreneurs all the way up to CEOs of billion-dollar companies—was off the charts. This one picks up where we left off and goes straight into the truth about scaling your business, your mindset, and your life.
Dr. Hardy breaks down why the goals you’re setting might be too safe—and how that safety is the very thing killing your growth. We talk about setting what he calls “impossible goals” with unreasonable timeframes, not because they’re flashy, but because they strip away every single thing that’s slowing you down. “False goals create intensity,” he says, and that’s where most people get stuck. The real key? Letting the future—not your past—shape your decisions today.
I open up about my own realizations. I thought I was a future thinker. Turns out, I was still leaning on the past more than I realized. And if you're scaling anything beyond just yourself, that mindset's got to shift. We get into what it really takes to lead with conviction, how to simplify your systems, and why being radically honest with yourself is the start of all exponential growth. This episode isn’t just theory—it’s the real talk you need if you're tired of playing small.
If you’ve been stuck in complexity, distracted by too many paths, or trying to do five things at once, this one’s going to hit home. Ben says it best: “We’re kept from our goal not by obstacles, but by a clear path to a lesser goal.” That’ll preach.
Key Takeaways:
Why short timeframes eliminate all the false paths
The difference between bold goals and truly impossible goals
How to stop lying to yourself and simplify your system
What it takes to scale beyond yourself—and why most never do
How to develop unshakable conviction and operate as a signal in a noisy world
Listen now, and get ready to start thinking and executing in a whole new way.
— Max Out
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