Why You Should Never Try to Win an Argument with Jefferson Fisher

25:37You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh man, that's not what I mean. And you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference if you were to ask me if you said, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, good.

26:11It was real good. I mean, it was really good. Thanks. Versus, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, it was good. It was a good day. Like you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with, that's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're at work and all of a sudden you go, what's wrong? What happened? What's going on? and all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying, all right, what happened?

26:52Give it to me. People are looking like we said for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And what's I going to do? is keep your analytical side engaged into where you do not allow yourself to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is neither does the other person because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down. So, hey guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And, you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow.

27:34And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future, you got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things, you're probably going to produce the same results. But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth-oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself. And that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second, growthday.com forward slash ed. My friend Brendan Brouchard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life.

28:00Everything from goal-setting software to personal accountability, journaling, courses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influencers, like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers. So go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed.

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29:09Muteen, adjective, used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. Muteen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you. What about tonality, specifically raising your voice for assertion, more lowering it almost to get them to lean in to pay attention? Is that any part of your belief system and influence or persuasion in a conversation? yeah the the idea is you want to lower your voice no i'm not talking really low it's just you want to make sure it's always a downward inflection when you want to make statements that are foundational statements that are concrete statements that are this is my value or my boundary um when you have an upward inflection it makes it sound like you're always asking a question like if i was going to ask you say pass the salt i wouldn't say can you pass the salt as if like, I doubt your ability to do it, or as if you don't know what salt is, it's the downward inflection.

30:32Can you pass a salt? So you want to make sure that you have a lower register instead of something that's really high. Same thing for like music. You take, for example, if you are always listening to fast paced music, it encourages aggravation. It encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust me, I like all kinds of music, but my point is if you start to, versus if you listen to something that's more easily listening, it will slow down your brain waves. It slows down your entire feeling of how you are reacting. So when you are able to use a voice that is lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in control.

31:14There's a difference. if I were to say, for example, I already told you I'm not going to do that versus I already told you I'm not going to do that. Like one sounds like it's grasping for control and it's not in control. The other says I am fully in control of this moment. Bro, you made me just think of my dad. My dad was a yeller when I was a young man. So he used his voice the worst possible way, right? Aggravation, stress, anxiety. He could take a situation that was a two and make it a 22 in like a second. However, as my dad got older, one of the things I noticed about my father, when I had a major life problem, like a big, big one, you know, like one of those once every eight or nine years, I'm in big trouble type things.

32:11And I would call my dad. He would slow down the conversation. His voice would get deeper. And there was this just his pacing and tonality calmed me down multiple notches. so much so that to this day, my father's passed away, that I have imaginary conversations with my dad when I'm under stress, where I am listening and mirroring that specific tonality of his, where he slowed it down and calmed it down and gave me a sense of peace about the conversation to the extent that it was so influential on me that I will have these conversations with him, even though he's not here because it calms me down.

33:00That's how powerful what you're, yeah, it's how powerful what you're suggesting is. That when your children come to you under stress or in trouble, I've worked so hard in those specific moments of just listening to them and slowing it down a little bit. Getting a little deeper in my register. Go ahead, you were going to say. No, I was going to say you're spot on and I love that. I think that is so, I mean, he was your, that was the anchor in the conversation. I find that same way with the kids. Like we never, for the parents that are listening, you never, you always want to be the person that your kids run to for help.

33:38And, you know, when, when they make the mistakes and if you always yell at them and raise your voice, they're not going to come to you. But when you can be a safe space and say slowly, thank you for coming to me with this, you That's going to just encourage that dialogue, the slowing down. There's a lot of wisdom in that. There is, brother. Well, since we're talking about kids, let's stay on one little topic. What if you're interacting with someone who's behaving like a kid? Meaning you're interacting with somebody who's emotionally immature. And now you've got to have a grown-up conversation with this person that you know is emotionally immature.

34:22and every time the conversation gets a little bit more stressed, their maturity level drops even further. What are some of your thoughts in dealing with someone like, because we've all got those people around us, we may even love them, but their maturity level to have a productive conversation is not always matching what we would like it to be. What do we do with them? Right. Well, let's first set out that you have to choose whether or not you want to have that conversation with that person, if that's the person I have the conversation with. because there's all kinds of different types. In my view, you need to be very clear about, I'm going to use the word boundaries, but not in a woo-woo kind of way.

35:02I'm using it in terms of gatekeeping your peace of mind, meaning you're going to use words that sense, establish, signal boundaries, like what you accept, what you allow. Those are the two big ones. So if I were going to say, I don't accept the way you're talking to me right now versus you can't speak to me that way. Like there is one says, if I say you can't speak to me that way to somebody who's emotionally immature, all they're going to do is go, well, yes, I can. Like they're not going to see behind the words. But if you, instead of beginning with you, you see how, if I say you can't speak to me that way, I'm just, it's like they have a remote control and they're pushing my buttons.

35:47And I'm saying, you can't press that button, but I gave them the remote. Instead, it's you want to have this idea of giving them a manual saying, hey, look, if you turn to page 76, paragraph two, you'll see I don't respond to that tone. like it's that's the kind of power that you'll be able to have when you use words like accept or allow it's saying i i don't allow people to speak to me that way um i don't i don't allow people to yell at me i don't allow people to disrespect me like there is um there is a sense of control that you're going to feel and a sense of confidence you're going to gain when you stop giving remote controls and start giving out manuals for how they are going to be able to speak with you that if we're going to engage in this conversation, this is what them's the breaks.

36:39These are the rules. This is how we're going to go through that instead of going, oh, I got to deal with this person. No, you don't got to deal with them. They have to deal with you. It's so good. I want to ask you about that. So I do consider you such an expert of this. This is a hard one. what if you've already been with someone so you're in a dynamic with them where you have accepted this way of being communicated to so it would be a little bit off-putting at that time to say something like um i'm not going to accept you communicating with me this way is it just as simple as changing a couple words and saying listen i know i have accepted this in the past but i am no longer going to accept having you or is there something else you would say In other words, you've established a dynamic.

37:27It's been five years, three years, 10 years, and that's it. You're not going to do it anymore. So that's a little bit harder than the first time, right? That's why I'm pushing it here because I know people listening are like, I would do that the first time, but I've been with this guy or I've been with this lady now for six years and I have allowed them to walk on me verbally this way for quite a while. that's the toughy and i'm wondering what you would do in that case so what i would do is i would make it very clear right then and there i would begin with something like i've made a choice and that choice starts today or i've made a decision and that decision starts today um it is a this is my a bright line of how I'm going to move forward.

38:16So even if it's as simple as I, you don't have to go, well, here's what I don't want people to do. What I don't want them to go is, hey, I know how, you know, we've been talking in the past and, you know, I know you've been talking to me that way, but I'm not going to allow that anymore this time. Like that is only the people that are intelligent, the people that are and know that they've been taking advantage of you will continue to poke down on you and they'll make fun of you for saying that kind of stuff. But that's what I don't want. That's more weaker position. Instead, it is a, I've made a choice and that choice is going to be instated for the rest of this relationship or the rest of this conversation.

38:59So whenever you can say I've made a choice or I putting this into action, you're using action verbs that say, I have made a decision and this decision is going to be how we move forward. not a just a random you know you're not going to talk to me that way but either way even if you do people are going to find ways that the people who enjoyed you not having boundaries are the ones that are going to be upset by them so it's it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong it just means that it's working so it's you're going to have people that are frustrated that you're changing the dynamic regardless. Let's take it one level pass and then I want to ask you some stuff about in the book as well.

39:41All of this is in the book, you guys, by the way. It's also in his content, which is basically, here's how you know content is good. When I started on social media, 99 % of my videos were me in my car with a camera in my hand, not driving. Here's some content. And then it went viral. It's exactly how he's gone. And that means it's the content standing on its own, not the curation of it. or the music behind it.

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40:49Want to keep tabs on that instant offer. With OfferWatch. Want to have CarMax pick it up from your driveway. You want to get it done to it. You want to do it all. So, want to drive? CarMax. Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. Okay, let's escalate further. You're with a narcissist now. You're with a full-blown narcissist. Now, these are, in my opinion, the most difficult people in the world to communicate with. That and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissists in the first place structurally?

41:28Is there anything that you know if this person is a narcissist, this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them? anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist you're playing a game you you are on the board and it's a game of either praise or provoke meaning that if you are not showering them with praise ed they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise they always want that from you. It's that sense of control, whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you.

42:14That's exactly what they're going to do. It's a game and it's a rigged game. And the reason why I say it's rigged, because it looks beatable. We've been in those conversations with narcissists and then on the other side of the table and you go, if I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm going to get them to understand. I'm going to get them to apologize. eyes. I'm going to get them to see the light and go, Oh my gosh. Yeah. You're so right. I can see how you were upset by that. They're not going to do that. They don't narcissists. They don't do empathy. They might know it hurts.

42:47They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is it, you're just not going to play the game. You do that by one using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with. So if you were to just to say, got it, noted, I hear you. Something as simple as that, it just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. The longer your answer, I tell this to all my clients, so it goes really for any communication, but the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get every time, the more that you're going to have to say.

43:24Like you've sent that text message to somebody and it was like a paragraph and you're like, oh, this is the best, most poetic like put together texts I've ever sent. And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle. And you're like, they didn't even address anything that I said. Yeah, that was the point. So you said too many things. You need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation. Or what I also like to do, and this is a go deep moment with me and you here, is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like they just have the ego of just out of control, that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion, is you use their thoughts about their reputation.

44:18So if I'm questioning a witness and I know he's a narcissist, I might say, and you think the jury's gonna like that, And it might just be me and him in the room. I say, and you think the jury's going to like that? Well, well, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, if you think others are going to be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it because they really don't care about you. They care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment.

44:54that's very good what about exiting a conversation i'm i'm not good at it uh not good at it well socially i socially uh i'm regularly telling a friend or my wife like don't leave me alone too long because i don't know how i don't i don't i i have several skills communication wise but one of them is not like we've sort of tapped out this conversation we've maxed this one out let's let's sex it gracefully. So whether that's on the phone or in person, the only thing I've ever stumbled into is starting to speak in the past tense, but I'd like to know your strategy on that if you do that as well. But like, what do you do?

45:35You don't talk about everyone's been there. They're a cocktail party and you get bumped into this wonderful person. You're eight minutes in. You're like, I'm going to be here all night if I can't somehow rotate out of here. Yeah. How do you do it? Well, you can just do what we do in the South. I think we just slap our thigh and go, well, yeah you're just good you know better get better get moving all right um no it's um a real easy trick that um i like to teach is that you just loop it so whatever you began talking about at the beginning so let's say it's family or work whatever it's typically something very surface level like that you just loop it there at the end so if you started talking about family that means you're going to end with, well, I'm glad to hear the family's doing well.

46:22I'll, you know, I'll, I'll see you around or I look forward to catching up later. Have a good evening, whatever it is, you just kind of close a loop of whatever you first started talking about. There are some people that also, um, like a method of, of acting like you're the one kind of inconveniencing their time when you're like, all right, I want you to get back to it. You know, all right, well, I know you're busy um that cuts both ways sometimes if it sounds really disingenuous if it's like what do you mean i don't have anything going on it's just me and you in the corner here if um so you kind of have to feel that out i feel like but for the you ever you for the past tense like i gotta tell you i've enjoyed this so much it's been so good to see you do you do that i mean and be sincere about it but it allows by past tense phraseology at least for me if they are actually listening, which maybe they're not, they go, oh, we're at the end of this conversation, not in the middle of it anymore.

47:19Yeah. Whenever you can say it was, or it's been, anytime you can use past phrases, that is, it's just saying, hey, this is our signal that the conversation has now ended. We are now talking about it as it's now happened in the past. I'll see you when I see you. Yeah, definitely, definitely. That's, that's a great way to do it. Okay. A few more things I want to ask you, can you reframe a conversation after it's over? So it's done. You and I've been texting or we had lunch, let's say, or a sales call that didn't close or whatever. Do you believe that post-conversation you can reframe its meaning to some extent, meaning with a follow-up text or a follow-up phone call?

48:01Are you a believer? I do a lot of that, frankly. So like throughout my day, when I have interactions with people, I really love in the evening circling back with that person. And, you know, I enjoyed our it's been being sincere, whatever it was. I enjoy our time so much getting to know about your high school basketball career, you know, the new business you're starting. And I like to frame or stamp a conversation and its meaning afterwards, post framing a conversation. What do you believe about that? I think it's critical. I think what it does, you put the perfect word on it, a stamp on it. It's a great way of, I've always said, put a bow on it to be able to just kind of package that conversation and now say, let's set it off to the side.

48:45Now it's almost a memory. Now it's more than just the transaction. It is now an event that has happened that you and I can both look back on rather than just an exchange of hands and a handshake and back and forth. If you're able to thank them, show words of gratitude, then you're able to wrap up kind of maybe one sentence, half of a sentence of what you were able to achieve in that conversation. And three, you want to add on just a little bit of something unique, maybe something that they didn't think you listened to, something about maybe their family or something about their favorite sports team or the name of their dog, you know, something like that, that allows them to, it just feels you're sending the message of, Hey, I actually listened to the person and see you for a person, not just as for what you can give me, that's going to solidify and put a bow on it and put your stamp on it.

49:39That's going to say, this is something that, that, uh, that will last. This episode is brought to you by Marshall's where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard, working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces. Because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop online at marshalls.com.

50:06What's the other application of your work other than what we're discussing now? So I want people to have reasons to get the book as well. So one is these interpersonal communications, these one-on-ones, anything public speaking wise. Like, is this your pace and tonality from stage or do you pick up the pace, for example, when you first walk out any other applications of your work? I'm just thinking of stage speaking another another forum for it. Yeah, definitely. Public speaking is is useful because I all of my lessons that I teach can also be applied to storytelling. But my pace, you've already picked up that what I do in my social media videos have to be very fast because that's the way social media is.

50:47if you're going to keep it less than a minute, you have to find ways to take 30 pages and turn it into two sentences. So you have to go a lot faster. On stage, I'm this speed, but I'm going to change and be more dynamic. And by dynamic, I mean, my highs are going to be higher. My lows are going to be lower. So you think of a symbol, like you can barely tap on a symbol here a little bit. You can hit it too and have a big crash. So you have to find ways to get in the pocket in your communication. And I love music. I play music. So that's why I like that term. You have to find the pocket. So anytime a band's playing together, there's a part where you kind of start bobbing your head.

51:30You're like, oh, this feels good. Like something is hitting there. Everybody's on beat. Everybody's in sync. They are not going too fast. They're not rushing it. They're also not dragging. They are in the pocket of the song. And so when you find that you can be in the pocket in your communication, whether it's in public speaking, whether it's interpersonal relationships, whether it's what I see a lot of these managerial roles. So this is a lot of consumers in my content are people that have people above them, like supervisors, and also have people below them, and also have this other opportunity to communicate.

52:06So let's say like teachers, they have faculty, they have students, and they have parents, or nurses, they have administration, they have patients and they have other nurses you know other people and doctors they have to all communicate so it's uh these principles that i teach in the book applied to just about everything that you have that is giving you the power of what to say next and so when you can find that you're getting in the pocket of your communication that means you're having the confidence of saying exactly what you need to say at the pace and tone of exactly how you need to say it and you feel good and you feel at peace at where you're at.

52:46You don't have one thing I've noticed about you. You're not one word reliant. So I want to ask you about that. Just a couple more hacks, you guys, before we wrap up. But I, a lot of people will overuse. You just did a piece of content I loved on people who say like, like, like, like, like, like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like. In my case, I have this reliance on literally. I overuse the word literally, right? I've just noticed it listening to my stage speaking, listening to a podcast. I literally use literally too much. So let's just take somebody even who uses the word like, I mean, and by the way, and everyone listening right now, you probably have a phrase or word that you use way more than you realize, right?

53:29They do. And so I'm wondering about any strategy or tactic. We could even stay on like if you choose, but should people be aware they do that to some extent as well? And um i want to say literally so i'll just let you answer well yeah yeah so yeah they're all uh adverbs they're all adverbs words in an ly um or they they try and do things in sentences that add a lot of fluff so like is one of them so just literally essentially i have a best friend who always start a sentence with. So basically, those are both adverbs. It's very easy to do because we use that in social casual conversation. If you want to eliminate using the word like all the time, swap it for the word because.

54:19It forces you to move the conversation forward. So instead of saying something to the effect of, I didn't like when you said that, like it really made me feel less versus I didn't like when you said that because it made me feel less. It's adding the cause and effect in there. Like it's just a fluff filler word. Literally is, as you know, also a big ad word. And what they do is they just water down your sentences. They don't mean anything. My one that I have is just, which is not great either. So you can tell the difference of somebody going, hey, just want to check in versus I wanted to check in.

55:01You remove the word just, it doesn't sound nearly as hesitant. The biggest thing with adverbs is you find a way not to use them. Like literally there's not a, there's not a flip or a word I would say, you need to replace it with this. It's just not using the word. That's a lot easier, easier said than done. I'm trying to catch yourself and there's nothing wrong with them I mean, casual conversation, it's when you're wanting to be assertive, when you're having to have a really important conversation that literally kind of just clogs up the sentence because they don't know what to do with it. They hear it.

55:34There's a difference between if I were to say, so like, I mean, literally, if maybe you don't think this way, but so I was just thinking like, but essentially, and you're like, what are they saying? Versus just scrapping all of that and getting right to the point. What if you are all just a little bit better at all of this? I just want you to think about it Just if you had a tool chest full of these things That you're just a little bit better at all of these things You're a little bit more persuasive your content on social media is a little bit better You're a little bit better in front of a crowd your interpersonal relationships flow just a little bit better Think about the implications of this in your life.

56:10And is there much? Are there many things you could do that could increase the quality of your productivity and your happiness more than what we're describing right now or instantly because I don't believe that there is literally no pun intended so last question regarding silence so I've watched you today and you listen quietly you don't do a lot of what I call emotional nudges uh-huh yes right you don't speed me up you listen to the end of a sentence. I just want to give you a whole package on the topic of silence. My opinion is that the best communicators I know utilize silence better than other people, meaning the following.

56:55I'm going to throw the whole package at you. My best standup friends, when they watched me speak, the advice they would give me, the ones that have been on the show is, Ed, a little bit more silence. Make the point and be quiet. Let the audience clap. Let them have the emotion before you move on to the next one. Don't talk over the punchline is one of the rules in comedy. Listening quietly, processing information after somebody speaks. All of this whole package of just silence and its actual unbelievable ability to be communicative to people is the part that I wanted to finish with. And maybe in my mind, the most important part of communication, just stage interpersonal personal persuasion, presenting, all of it, listening, silence.

57:39What does that mean to you when I say it? Silence is, without a doubt, the most powerful tool anybody can have in their communication because it may be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication. Silence is always communicating something. And even some of the best, I would say your best attorneys, your best lawyers are ones that don't try and step over the witnesses answer. They are listening intently. That's when I know I have somebody on the other side I need to worry about because they're not writing down notes. They're not looking for their next question. They're just looking and listening.

58:18And when that's happening, I'm going, oh, okay. Now, now I'm in with somebody who's who can play. So it is anytime you're listening to somebody, if you begin to kind of really engage, I know that goes different for different types of people and their personality, but when you can just sit and listen, it's saying I'm 100 % devoted to this moment. I'm not wishing I was somewhere else. I'm not trying to speed this up so I can get out. I'm not trying to focus on me and what I'm going to say next and my story that I'm going to share that's going to be hopefully better than yours. It is just an appreciation for letting you shine, letting the spotlight be on you and me having this sense of wonder to say, what can I learn from this moment?

59:03And when you begin to have every one of your conversations with this mindset of having something to learn and not something to prove, better things are going to happen in your life when you start to slow down and realize where you're going. I love where we went today, brother. You know, I really wanted to have him on for a while, you guys. And I wanted to do it in person, which, you know, I don't do a lot of them like that lately just because of my health. And this exceeded my expectations, especially because we had to do it through Zoom. I really love your work. And I think the application of it, Jefferson, from young children all the way to somebody who's been married 35 years wanting to make their marriage better and everybody in between can benefit from your work.

59:49And so I really want to thank you for being here today. And you're one of the people I have on that halfway through the interview, I know I want to have him on again. So at some point, promise me we'll do this thing again, but we'll do it in person. In person. Absolutely, man. I can't wait. It's been an honor, brother. Yeah, I can't say enough good about it, about you and what you stand for. So thank you for your legacy that you're leaving. Likewise, brother. Hey, guys, you got to get the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. You just got a little sliver of it today. The book is loaded. There's no wasted pages.

1:00:21It's like the stuff I write, you guys. It's not full of fluff. It's a strategy and a concept and then specific tactics. You're going to love it. All right, everybody, share today's episode. God bless you. Max out. This is the End Myron Show.

1:00:53Thank you.