Words That Win: How Supercommunicators Unlock the Secrets to Connection with Charles Duhigg

23:47or, you know, something that's, you know, you're going into it and going, gosh, I wish I didn't have to have this conversation, but I do. Yeah. Or sometimes they catch you off guard, right? We're like, I'm talking about one thing and all of a sudden I realized you're furious at me. Like I didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is they abide by the same rules, but the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by, by sharing something about myself. but if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window, right?

24:21Like you're, you are, you're fight or flight is going off in your head like crazy. You can't trust someone easily just because like they ask you a question. So, and this has been a focus of a lot of study. How do we make conversations in conflict better? And there's basically two things. The first one is I mentioned this looping for understanding, right? Asking a question, repeating back what you heard, and then asking if you got it right. That's enormously powerful in conflict. Because the first thing, the first suspicion I have, if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other, is you're waiting your turn to speak.

24:57You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? You're just waiting there. And like, I'm going to tell you my piece and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove, I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages, this actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy, is that it is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things.

25:30And the easiest thing to control is the other person. So you tell me your thing and I'm like, no, no, no, you don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence. You say something and you're like, I'm not even gonna listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage, that is the thing that destroys marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control. You have a need for control. We feel threatened. Can we find things to control together? So for instance, can we control the timing of this fight? Instead of having it at two in the morning, can we wait till it's 10 a.m.

26:07and we're both a little bit more rested? Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know, I'm going to take a second before I speak and I'm going to think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself? And the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself. So one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking, where we start arguing about like where we're going to go for New Year's. and then like five minutes later it's like and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money and like why are you such a jerk all the time right so a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything yeah the healthy way to do that is to say we need to have a fight like we have a disagreement on something let's control the boundaries of it we're talking about new year's eve if my mother comes up and your money comes up like we're just gonna set it aside that's another conversation, another day.

27:04But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling, we're controlling ourselves. We're controlling, um, the conversation, the environment, and we're controlling the boundaries of the fight or the, the conflict. We're controlling those as partners, right? We're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing, but you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other. That's outstanding. When you're talking about relationships and family where my, first off, I've made those mistakes. Me too.

27:35I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker now that you term it that way. Yeah. And so I think I've gotten better at it. I also think the longer with you, you're with somebody, you have more stuff in the sink. And so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation. Right. How long have you been married for? 26 years. Okay. So I'm coming up on 20 and there, and I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if, if I'm getting this wrong, which is there, there are these things, literally I can say two words and I know the entire fight in my, in my wife's head.

28:06Right. It's like, it's like, and sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like, I like, I'm like, I'm like, well, you know, it's cause like I earn more money than you. And then I'm like, Oh, nuts. I just stepped in it. Like all to kitchen sink it. All I had to say was literally three words. You brought the whole thing. Yeah. And so the The immediate thing I do is I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry. Whoops. Yeah. I did not mean to do that. Like, tell me what you're feeling because I want to give you a chance. But like. You know what? I've gotten better at that, Charles, with my kids too. Of saying, you know what?

28:36I'm sorry. Let me take that right back. Whereas before I'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad. It'll be brushed under. And no, sometimes you just have to in the moment go, I'm going to yank that one back. And not only are you connecting with them, but think about the modeling you're doing. Right. You're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like I'm absolutely certain your kids are going to copy that without even realizing it comes from dad. Yeah. You're making me think of young people when you say that. I want you to give you, can we teach this to young people?

29:03I'll tell you why I ask. Yeah. I have great conversations with my kids. Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart, when you're listening to this. But lately with my daughter, I love doing kind of dates with my daughter and I. She's a sophomore in college. And I watch her with other people. She's quite the conversationalist. But with me, and she's not disinterested, but when we're talking, there's a lot of, yep. yeah right uh-huh and at one point we were taking a walk on the beach over christmas and i said bella this is kind of a serve and volley type thing here like i serve and you return the serve and then i hit the ball back to you and you hit it back to me to your point of ask me something right you know so so it made me wonder is there anything different and maybe she's not even quite at that age i'm talking about but if i have an eight and nine a ten year old i i'm always blown away when I meet a child who is a tremendous communicator, makes eye contact, shakes your hand, Mr.

29:56Mylett, how are you? What do you do? Like when they ask, I'm like, automatically what I think, these are great parents. Yes. I think immediately, these are tremendous parents. So is there anything with young people that can, that these skills can be taught? Anything unique that you would say that goes with young people? Absolutely. So I think that there's two things. Let's talk about the older kids first, like your daughter's age. So I had a friend whose daughter just went to college and he had a conversation with her before he left, which I've now imitated and I love. He sat down with her and he was like, look, you're definitely gonna call us when something important happens in your life.

30:28But if that's the only time you call, then by definition, you're not calling us that frequently. Like we're gonna lose contact with each other. So what I want you to do is I want you to call me for the unimportant things. You had a bad day, but it's not a big deal. You ate something good for lunch. You're working on this paper and it's kind of interesting. We don't have to talk for more than five or seven minutes, right? But I want you to call me and tell me about the unimportant stuff. Because the important stuff will take care of itself. And so my son went off to boarding school. He's at boarding school right now here in California.

31:02And it's his first year there. He's in 10th grade. And I told him this. He calls me every day. I actually talk more to this kid with him at boarding school than I did when he was at home. Yes. So for older kids, that's the thing is to say this is a priority. Like conversation is something none of us are born super communicators. We can all learn how to do it. This is a skill you should practice because it's important. For the younger kids, it's a little bit harder, right? Yes. But I think for them, this is where the deep questions become so powerful. So my younger one, same thing. How was school today?

31:36Good. What'd you learn? Nothing. Right? Like, so, and, and so some of the advice is like, be like, oh, well, you know, did pirates show up today? And you can do that a couple of times. But at some point, if you ask them a question where, where you're asking them to tell you who they are, like, like, like, uh, I know that you said that you like science more than you like math. I'm just wondering, like, why? Like, what is it? Was it about science? Like, I mean, is science important to you? Like you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend and I'm just wondering like, what is it? What do you like about that friend?

32:11Like what is special to him? What's great about that is that first of all, it's clearly not judgmental, right? Whereas if I'm like, what'd you learn today? I'm kind of judging. Good point. You better, you should have learned something today. Very good point. But second of all, I'm matching him and I'm allowing him to set the stage. It's not that he's playing on my ball court. I'm saying to him, tell me your ball court. And that's powerful. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes.

32:44You'll never miss an episode that way. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Not available in all states or situations.

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33:30When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter. You're the expert because you know what fits your life. And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at GoodToKnowFacts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit goodtoknowfacts.org. You do a lot of gestures when you talk. Oh, yeah? I don't know if you noticed that. Well, you're expressive in your face. This may not even be in the book, but I want to ask you about it.

34:09So you're expressive with your face. You use your hands. And I'm wondering if nonverbal cues are part of being a super communicator. Because I've had people say, I'm really excited to be here. I'm like, you should tell your face. You should email your face and let them know that you're excited to be here. So I think a lot of it is i'm reading things you're not saying when I talk to somebody as well Yeah, and I think that's exactly right and and to be super communicator You don't have to have nonverbal right because there's people who like on the phone are fantastic If you're good at one thing, you're usually good at everything Okay, but but similarly with you like you you clearly should telegraph non-verbally or non-linguistically You telegraph your interest you telegraph what you're hearing And that's very very powerful and there's a kind of a science behind it And we've learned a lot of it from looking at laughter.

34:56So the interesting thing about laughter is studies show that about 80 % of the time when all of us laugh, it is not in response to something funny. Okay. Right. So we've laughed a couple of times in this, in this interview, but I haven't said anything that funny. Right. Like you just laughed. I'm not that funny a guy. So what happens when we laugh? What a laugh actually is, is it's saying to the other person, I want to connect with you. I'm going to show you that I want to connect with you. And then when they laugh back and 90 % of the time when I laugh, the person I'm talking to will laugh back.

35:30They're saying, I want to connect back. That's tremendous. So that's a non-linguistic communication. And what I love is actually NASA for a time. I was going to ask you this. Yeah. So glad. So they were trying to figure out how to find emotionally intelligent astronauts. Yeah. And like the problem is everyone who applies to be an astronaut, if you make it to the final stages, you're, you're like a golden boy or girl, right? A thousand percent. Yeah. You know how to answer every question. You've practiced everything. And they're like, we can't figure out who's actually emotionally intelligent and who fakes it really, really well.

36:00But when they're in space on a six month mission, the difference is going to matter a lot. Huge. So this one psychologist, he started realizing if I pay attention to how people laugh, most importantly, do they match my laughter? So he would come into a room and he would accidentally spill papers accidentally. He actually did it on purpose. and then he would laugh uproariously and he would watch what that candidate would do. Some candidates would be like, cause you know, you're supposed to laugh. Right. And then other people would be like, that's, I, let me help you with that. Like I, the astronauts who matched him, not just on laughter, but he would tell a sad story and see if the other person, if the other person empathize, if they, if they engaged in reciprocity, if they asked him questions about it.

36:46So that's non-linguistic, but it tells us whether that person wants to connect. And that's ultimately, I think when I'm making gestures, I'm inviting you to, I'm inviting you in, right? I'm saying like, here I am, like, I want you to see what I'm seeing. I hope what everybody's getting out of this is like, these are skills that can be learned. There's an art and a science to this. You said, I'm glad you asked that. I was going to ask you about the NASA thing. You also said emotional intelligence. So I just feel like that's at the root of what we're talking about here. So how big of a component is just being sort of, I think also, let me say this.

37:26So emotionally aware is another word that I would use as well. Emotionally aware is a part of having emotional intelligence. You agree with that? Absolutely. So I, this phrase, emotional intelligence is actually kind of a misnomer because it makes us think it's like IQ, You're either born with it or you're not, but it's not. Emotional intelligence is emotional awareness. If I say to myself and I train myself to say, a priority is noticing when someone else is feeling something and matching that and giving them the space for that. That is emotional intelligence. That's the thing that's going to make it feel like you understand them, that you can empathize with them.

38:04And it's not hard, right? It's just about making it a priority. there's a, there's in the book, a lot of examples of that. There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one, cause I want them to get the book. So I don't want to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book. This sort of illustrative of just, you thought was one of the more interesting stories in the book. So they have an understanding. Cause what's great about the way Charles writes this book is that there's like points and tactics. And then I like the story to sort of reinforce it. And I, for me, facts tell stories sell.

38:36I remember stories. And so I I like the way that you've weaved these into the work. And that's why there's so many stories in there is because it's, there's so much easier to remember. So one of my favorite stories is, is early in the book. It's about Jim Lawler, the CIA agent. So good. So Jim, Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times. He he's, he's awesome. He, um, he became a CIA officer when he was in his thirties and he wanted this so bad. He like, he struggled for the, like he just ran after this so hard. It was like, he was desperate to be CIA officer. They accept him. They send him off to training.

39:07And then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets. And he finds out he's the worst recruiter on earth. Like literally he would go to like parties and he's in like, he couldn't make conversation. He would like try and buddy up with people. And they're like, you're a spy, aren't you? You're trying to get me to be a spy. They're like, I'm going to report you to the, to the authorities. You're going to get deported. So he's like freaking out. Cause he's like, I'm terrible at this. And then someone in his, in his office says, look, there's this woman coming into town. She's from the middle East.

39:36She works for the foreign ministry. why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there? So he bumps into her to a restaurant the next day, right? Bumps. Okay. And he introduces himself as an oil speculator, strikes up a conversation, takes her to lunch the next day. They start sightseeing together. He sort of develops a little bit of a relationship. He goes and he says to his boss, I think I'm recruiting this woman. I think she's going to be an asset for us. And then he, and his boss is like, that's fantastic. I'm glad to hear it. He goes, he has dinner with this woman, Fatma and he says I'm not an oil speculator I work for the CIA now Fatma had been telling him she comes from a he never told me which nation but it's pretty obvious which one it is right she comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution and so the the fundamentalists have all taken over and she hates it she's like she's like they're making women wear hijabs or telling us we can't go to college I want to fight this but I don't know how and so Jim Lawler says to her the most practical thing possible He's like, we want the same thing you do.

40:37Like we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. Work for me for the CIA. And she grabs the table and starts shaking her head and she starts crying. And she goes, no, no, I'm not going to do it. And just has a meltdown. And she says, they kill people in my country for doing this. I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship. because if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're going to think I'm in the CIA. And she just bolts. And Lawler's like, I'm terrible at this. I'm such a bad recruiter. So he goes back to his boss and he tells him what happened.

41:16His boss is like, dude, I already told Washington, D.C. you recruited her as a spy. You're going to get fired if you can't close the deal on this. This is your last chance. That's why we gave it to you. So Jim spends all this time trying to figure out, how do I, what do I do? And he, he keeps on calling Fatima and eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner a couple of nights before she's going to fly back home. And she says, yes, cause he says he's taken to a expensive restaurant and he has a notebook full, full of ideas on how to convert her. And he knows none of them are going to work.

41:52Like you cannot trick someone into taking a suicidal risk. Right. Right. It's just not going to. So he goes to dinner and she's in a, she's really down. Cause she's like, you know, I came to Europe. I thought I was going to learn something about how to, how to be more myself or how to change the world. And I'm just going home and I'm the same person. And what he starts doing, trying to do is cheer her up. He tells her little stories. He, um, reminisces about when they, you know, went sightseeing together and she just gets more and more glum. And finally dessert comes and they're kind of by themselves at the table and Jim thinks to himself like should I try to like recruit her again and he's like if I do that she's literally going to stand up and walk away so what he decides to do is he decides like this isn't going to work I'm giving up I'm just going to have a real conversation I'm going to be honest and he starts saying to her look I know how you feel because I feel exactly the same way I like I wanted this job my entire life and it turns out I'm terrible at it I am so disappointed in myself and i don't know how i'm gonna go home and tell my dad that like i failed i got fired by the cia and he talks this way now what he's doing obviously without even realizing it is he's matching her he's matching right she was she was glum and he was trying to cheer her up that's not matching yep he was matching her and she's she's listening to this and she starts crying and he's like i'm such a jerk and in the cia you have to report every conversation so he's gonna have to write up a memo and he's like those guys are going to fire me within seconds like they're just going to laugh and he reaches over and he pats her arm and he's like I'm so sorry I did not mean to make you cry I am sorry and she says no no I think I can do this wow and then and he's so inexperienced he actually the first things out of his mouth is like no no no you don't have to do that like you don't have to like because he wasn't trying to manipulate her he was just trying to finally wasn't yeah he finally wasn't trying to manipulate her and he's like no no I don't want to put you at risk you don't have to do it and she's like she says no no what you want is important.

43:56I think we can do this together. So for the first time, she was able to hear him. She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her. Next day, she goes to a safe house. She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle East for the next 20 years. And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches it today. It's one of the best stories ever. I love that story. Let's go. I'm going to pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there.

44:30So when you say matching, was it that she was in an emotional conversation and he wasn't? Is that what you mean by that? That's a huge part of it. Okay. He was also vulnerable. But he was also vulnerable. So she was, not only was she in an emotional conversation, but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting, right? Okay. Instead of saying like, oh, you shouldn't feel bad. I'm going to cheer you up. He was saying like, look, you feel bad. Like, let's just acknowledge that. and that matching feels good because it feels like someone's hearing us. I think it's a huge thing.

44:57I don't ever like saying gender specific stuff because I don't believe it, but I do think by and large, those two elements, women are better at naturally, meaning I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be. I just, and I don't even like saying this, but I just, I think in general, most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often more often so that when there is an emotional conversation you're in, we just want to fix it or solve the problem or be the savior or be valuable or be important rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge it's not always men and women, right?

45:30It's definitely not, but it's more prevalent, I think. And I think what's happening there is we're following, falling back on what's feels comfortable to us. Right. It is for sure. So, so if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off, it's not so much that like, I actually think we should be practical. It's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion. There you go. And so I'm shining, I'm going back to my safe place. There you go. And, and actually that safe place is emotional, right? Like, like, like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem is like, it really bothers me that you're upset.

46:05I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I want to make you feel better. I feel like that's my job and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like that is emotional, right? Right. I'm just, I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation because that's my, That's my safe space. That's my pattern. That's how I hide. Yeah. That's a zillion percent right. I told you we're going to go a bit long, so we're going to. Absolutely. Okay, let me ask you this. This is a hard one. And so I keep using the term nonverbal. I've used that. Let me couch it a little differently. Okay.

46:34Literally nonverbal. Okay. So types of communication that are not done verbally. Okay. Mail. Written, email, text, whatever. Yeah. I have found for me, if I'm transparent with people, I feel like I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator. I've also found my friends that are hyperverbal people in general, again, another generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason, when I write or text, it comes across as harsh, curt, sometimes aloof. My writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style does. And I'm really not very good at that. So what about tips or keys on that.

47:17So what's going on there? So, so it's interesting if we were having this conversation, um, about a hundred years ago, a little bit under a hundred years ago when phones first became popular, what we would be talking about. And there were all these articles that said this, no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone. Well, because unless you can see someone, you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice. You're, you're not like, like telephone communication is basically going to be for like sending over like grocery orders. Now, you and I are both Gen X, right? Like when we were kids, we were on the phone for like seven hours a night.

47:48100%. I can have, I have a friendship, I have friendships where I only talk to the person on the phone. So do I. And I still remember the phone numbers of my friends when I was a kid. I don't know anybody's phone number now, but I know Andy Quirin's phone number. Yes. Right? It's like in there. Right. It's true. And so what's interesting is if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone, what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone. When you're on the phone, people tend to over enunciate. because they know that they can't see us, right? We tend to explain ourselves a little bit more.

48:18And when we make a joke, we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke. We know that they don't have the visual signal. And so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio. So now the thing is, we've been talking on the phones for over 100 years. We've been communicating face-to-face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982, right? Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to, how to communicate digitally. We have not though the rules about how that channel is different have not become intuitive yet. So the solution is we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing and we have to say to ourselves, okay, and these are the tips when I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face.

49:06And then study after study has shown this, that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like 70 % higher response rate. Okay. Because, because I need to signal it, right? If I'm now, if I'm texting you, I can be short, but if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends, like it's going to, it's going to rub you the wrong way. Right. So part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel. Right. So we treat email and text and slack and everything exactly the same way.

49:45But the truth is, if you just take a second and you say like, oh, I don't have to say please necessarily in this text because it could be short, but every email I should like bend over backwards, be a little bit more polite. It works wonders. Brother, I'm such a bad emailer. I'm so lazy with emails. I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it. You know what I mean? Nevermind a thank you. I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived. And I've had a lot of people, even that I've worked with, you know, even like in the podcast space with like, man, when I met you, you're so nice and kind, but I read your emails.

50:12You're scary. I'm like, really? I didn't mean it that way. I'm just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else. I thought email was the faster way, but you're a hundred percent right. The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to that right there was huge for me. And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like if you say to your employees, like, look, I just want you to know, I'm going to send you brusque emails. Cause like I'm moving a mile million miles an hour, you should not read anything into that. Yeah. Now we know the rule. Well, now I've pre-framed it, but I don't do that.

50:40Yeah. And I treat everybody like they should know better and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice long, you know, six paragraph email and I reply with like seven words. Right. And I wonder why they feel dismissed in a conversation. That's my daughter. Yep. Yeah. Uh huh. Right. That's my, that's the extent of my email. So you're a thousand percent right. My son texts me K. He doesn't even put okay. He just That's K. I'm like, how much lazier can you get? I relate to that. But that setting the ground rules, setting, like figuring out the rules together, we can do that in a conversation too.

51:10So if we're talking about, say, race, right, which is a tough topic, if I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this and I just want to acknowledge, it's going to, it will likely be awkward. I will probably make mistakes and say things that I don't really, I'm not saying it the right way. You're probably going to make mistakes. Like, I think just as a ground rule, like, let's just say it's okay to say things and forgive each other for not getting it right. So now we've established that now all of a sudden that conversation about race feels so much easier. Right. We're both open.

51:44We're both vulnerable. We've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts. And the other thing is if you don't create that space, then you're really not saying what you really think either. And it's not an authentic exchange. That's exactly right. I agree. When you ask for permission, I'm going to ask you two more things. Sure. Okay. You said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I think I heard you say was, help me understand this, right? I love that and totally agree. So, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also, what about, the conversation's been over to me.

52:15When I think, when I feel the most listened to, you and I had lunch together. Okay. And you did that. But 730 that night, I get a message from you. You're gone. I'm gone. And you say, I just want to tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much. And the way that you spoke about your wife or what you shared about blah, blah, blah, I just want to tell you it was so meaningful for me. To me, that's like what you've suggested on steroids, that actually after the conversation has ended, I come back later and say, not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said and it made a difference to me.

52:48I just want to share that I do that. And I think that's a way of me saying I really value and appreciate what we discussed. And it feels so good. I've gotten an email like that from you and like it felt really good to get it and it was a great conversation Right, but like to know that it was meaningful to you and it's much like laughing It's you saying like I want to connect like you wanted to say something and I think I jumped in front of it Oh, I was just gonna talk about this looping for understanding these three So so looping for understanding there's three steps to it. You you ask a question hopefully a deep question Repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say and then step number three ask if you got it right ask if you got it right because and it's that third step that we often forget to do and is the most powerful okay because what i'm saying when i ask you if i got it right and i i do this all the time i'm like like let me tell you what i hear you saying and like like tell me if i'm getting this wrong is that we are saying to them not only do i want to understand you i acknowledge that i might have missed something and you you might have phrased it in a way that doesn't actually capture what you want.

53:54And so like when someone says that to me, when they're like, tell me if I'm getting this right. And they repeat back what I just said, I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like, no, no, no. You like, I did a bad job of explaining like the, the thing that like, I really care about because you didn't pick up on it and you were listening. I need to get better at that. And that feels good. That's outstanding. All right. Last question. First off, let me say this. This is awesome. Oh, thank you. And I, both times we've had to interact together like this, it flies by for me. And frankly, that's because you're a super communicator.

54:26As are you. Well, thank you. And the quality of your work, listen, guys, there's a lot of books. This man doesn't write a ton of them because they're so good when he writes them. There's so much in here, even in today's podcast. I hope you understand the value of getting good at these, what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world. So this is a broad question, I'm just framing it differently. I want to finish with it. And thank you for that, by the way. It's true. My guest today is writing his 88th book, and he's also one of the greatest communicators who's ever lived.

54:58John Maxwell, welcome back to the show, brother. Ed, it's so good to be with you. You do something you talk about in the book. We might as well just start there. You have the ability to take really complicated things and make them seem simple. Yeah. And you talk about that as actually one of the laws in the book of being able to be a great communicator. Is that something that you do? I'm sure you do it intentionally, but do you do it naturally? Well, I do it intentionally. Let me say this. I was a good student, but I wasn't a great student. And so a lot of times when I was in college or in a classroom, I would want the professor to break it down and make it much more simple.

55:37I would look around the room. I said, am I the only one that's having a hard time here and not maybe grasping and learning like I need to? And so really, as a student, I worked on helping. When I would hear a talk, I would say, how could that be reduced so I can apply it to my life? And so it almost started as a student. And I learned to reduce things and bring them down. And I tell people all the time, I'm a communicator, not an educator. An educator takes something simple and makes it complicated. I mean, that's just who they are. I mean, honestly, if you're in the education world, if you're not confused, they're not pleased.

56:13You know what I'm saying? And then a communicator takes something complicated and makes it simple. And so my whole goal is to make things very palatable for people. One of the things I teach in the book is the fact that if you have to keep explaining what you just said, you haven't said it right the first time. I mean, and how many times we have a person explain and explain. I just sit there and think, why didn't you take some time on the front end to simplify this so that everybody can apply it to their life? And there are three, real quickly, there are three kind of, I take the simplistic. I start with simplistic.

56:53And simplistic is not good. It's fast and it's easy, but it's not really deep and helpful. And it's a half truth. It's never a whole truth. So if I say things like experience is the best teacher, that's a simplistic statement. But it's not true. If it were true, then as people got older, everybody get better. And I know a whole bunch of people, they're getting older, but they're not getting better. The experience isn't helping them at all. Although experience is not the best teacher, reflection and learning from that experience is the best teacher. Wow. So how do I get from experience as the best teacher to reflection and learning from experience as the best teacher?

57:37Well, you've got to go from simplistic to complicated or complex. In other words, you've got to wrestle with the statements. and you've got to contextually take them from every angle until you can come to something that is really solid and something that is really true and something that really works. And so just as simplistic as easy and fast, you know, complex, complicated is slow and deep. But once you come through that, and it takes a while to do that, once you come through it on the simple side now, Now, it's fast, but it's deep. In other words, people can grab it real quick, but then they go home and they think about it, Ed, and they just can't get away from it.

58:25Like when you wrote the book, The Power of One More, that is so simple that you can grasp it immediately, but you have to spend a lot of time on it to work it out in your life. What a great point. Yeah, what a great point. So here's the issue. I think in communication, when I was young, when I was a young communicator, I saw that I had charisma and I saw that I could probably get by on stage with having fun with people and enjoying them and making them laugh. And I came to this decision, am I going to wing it or am I going to work for it? And I was tempted to wing it because I could wing it and I could get by with it.

59:15See, here's the challenge. When you're gifted in a certain area, you can wing it and still be successful. Right. You can be in that top 20%. Yes. But to work for it, that's a whole different game. And in the law of simplicity, you have to work for this. You have to work for – work simple is hard work. But if you work for it, you can get in the top 2%. Yeah. And so what I tell people all the time is the tendency and the temptation is in giftedness is you don't give it all because you just don't have to give it all. I mean, it's just it comes. But because you don't give it all, you do well, but you don't do very, very well.

59:58But if you would just work on that area of giftedness, you'd get that top 2%. And you know as well as I do. If you're in the top 2%, whatever it is, you own whatever you want to own. The world is yours. And so simple, I decided at a very young age, in my 20s, I was going to work for it. I was just going to work for it. And I spent a lot of time. This morning, I write every day. This morning, I was writing, and I was wanting to make a statement. And I worked on that statement probably for 40 minutes. And I would write it, and I said, no, that's not quite right. I've got to work. No, no, it's still in a fit.

1:00:34And then finally, about 20 minutes later, I thought, okay, I got it. There it is. There it is. So I get up and I make this statement and people say, oh my gosh, the guy just flows out of him. No, no, it didn't flow out of me. It didn't either. It had to cook and work it inside of me a long time. But I get it to the place where it flows out of me. But it doesn't flow. Good stuff doesn't happen automatically. I am very, very excited about today's program because I've got a legend with me here in the fitness industry and in the personal coaching industry as well. and that's Bedros Koulian. So, Bedros, thank you, brother.

1:01:09Thank you, sir. Thank you for having me. I told you earlier that you're a world-class communicator. And at first, when I was driving here, because I watched your videos, I listened to you talk, and I appreciate great communicators because I'd like to think I'm working on being one myself, right? You're a great one, but you're being very modest. Well, like you, I hate hearing the sound of my own voice probably. Like, we'll watch this back and there'll be a million things I wish I said or did differently. And that's always the case with me. But, see, it's interesting that struck me. I'm like, well, he's in the fitness business.

1:01:36I wonder why that was so important. And then I started to think about it. Is there really any business where that's not critical? So talk a little bit about, I'm sure even with your Fit Body Boot Camp franchisees, the ability to communicate with people, to persuade, to influence people to do things for their own betterment. How important has that been in your journey? And do you think it is for entrepreneurs? I think there's some guys that think, well, I'm a tech entrepreneur, so this doesn't matter. You're still going to have to market something or hire people or persuade them to join your firm.

1:02:03How important is persuasion, articulation, communication? It's a lost art these days, unfortunately, because we text so much. I saw a study, a video. The professor took two students from the same class, college students, put them back-to-back in a chair without their cell phone, and they said, communicate. And it was very awkward and clunky. Hi, hi, how are you? Good, what are you doing? Okay. Handed them their cell phones. They're still back-to-back. And you could see their screens. And they started to communicate, Ed. with emojis, exclamation points. So verbal communication, physical communication, the art of getting your message across and influencing others and painting the word picture so that they can be all in on your vision is a lost art.

1:02:45Now, English is a second language to me. I had to learn this language first, then I had to learn how to communicate with it second. Everything I've wanted in life, whether it's building this franchise, networking with amazing people like you, has been an outcome of communication. I communicate through video, through podcasts, through blog posts, through Facebook Lives. You name it, we communicate. And if we can't articulate well and draw the word picture for others to get on board with our message. That's interesting. That's what we're doing. We're drawing a word picture. If I say, imagine if, Ed, you're sitting in a room that looks like a library, that looks very old-time library, with a beautiful oil painting of an amazing dog across from you, which right across the way, there's my dog.

1:03:25This man has an oil painting in his office. So, look, there's pictures of his family in here somewhere, I'm sure. But the main picture in this office that I'm staring at is of your dog on the wall here. With a crown on, is it her or Ed? Is it a her or he? It's a her. It's a her. We're staring at Cookie. She's watched this entire interview. But imagine if we weren't in this room and I said, Ed, imagine if, and I started to draw this word picture to you. Yes. You would picture this room. Yes. And we need to get better at that level of communication to draw word pictures because when people can see it in their mind's eye, they now commit to it mentally and emotionally and are willing to buy into your vision, your agenda, whatever your thing is.

1:04:04So without communication, I believe that we are lost as leaders, as entrepreneurs, as teachers, as politicians. With communication, we can lead the masses hopefully to a better place. Wow, so good, man. One of the things I notice about you and your ability, by the way, I love that word pictures analogy. I'm going to steal that from you. The other thing that you do really well, and I want people to hear this because they're experiencing it, but I want you to know what you're experiencing. You can't transfer energy through text or email. You can transfer information. You can't transfer energy. You can't transfer word pictures.

1:04:35So one of the things you do in an exemplary way is you transfer energy. The way you communicate makes me feel something, right? Like strength, intensity, passion, empathy, whatever it is. Great communicators can transfer energy to people. You can't transfer to me something that which you're not already experiencing yourself. You can't give me what you don't have. The reason you're such a gifted communicator is you're experiencing these things yourself. You've already won. You've already been successful. You already feel these things. And I know, by the way, I know people will probably leave comments and messages, but what if I don't have the gift that he has?

1:05:07I just want to reinforce to others that English was a second language to me, and this is a learned behavior. Yeah. I should say something about that, too, because I'm using the word giftedness. And so here's what I think. I think that everybody can get to a point of being super great communicators. I also think someone like you, you were born probably with the ability to have this, and you refined it and refined it and refined it. I think all humans have the ability to give energy. Some are better at doing it with a spoken word. Some are better at doing it with a look. Some are better at doing it with a touch.

1:05:36But we all have the capacity to transfer energy to one another. I just think one of yours is with the spoken word. I just think you're excellent. I think everybody can develop that skill. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, too. It's an honor for me, everybody, to introduce this man to you. because today's going to be an absolute treasure with the great Les Brown. So, Les, thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you so much for having me. You are the messenger and you are the message. That's me. You got people who are speaking out here. It's been hijacked with speaking to sell. We sell people on their greatness.

1:06:12We sell people on the things that they need to do now, the methods, the techniques, the strategy, to create the next greatest version of themselves. And when we do that, we know that when we make that kind of impact, we know that we're in the place of what Leo Toy Story, the Russian author, he said, what in the meaning and purpose of my life that will not be undone and destroyed when I'm gone? And the people that listen to your program and their mind and their vision has been expanded. You give them a vision of themselves beyond the adversities of what they're experiencing in this place where we are right now.

1:06:54And help them to begin to live their life from a place of optimism that they're going to impact other people. And those people are going to impact other people. And this work that you, as much as you have chosen this, you were chosen for this. And this work will not be undone. You're going to impact generations yet on board. Thank you. My gosh, I'm getting chills all over. One of the, I want to, I want, I, I'm always watching you. Right. And so thank you for that. Like sincerely, I, you, someone or something could not be more special to me than what you've just said. I want you to also watch something with less everybody.

1:07:35He speaks greatness into people. I really believe that that's a, it seems small, but he speaks greatness into people. He speaks to their better self. All of his messages always end with, there's greatness in you. And I just think that all of us should just be conscious of this. I'd be making a huge mistake. I have the greatest speaker I've ever seen on my show. Is there anything you would impart onto somebody who's listening and says, I'd like to be a better communicator? Are there a couple keys that the best ever would share with me about how I could become a better communicator if I'm listening or watching the show right now?

1:08:11You know, Serena Williams is considered a dominant tennis player on the planet, but she has a coach. Muhammad Ali said, I'm the greatest, but he never won a championship without Angelo Dundee. Michael Jordan considered one of the great basketball players, but he never won a championship without Phil Jackson. I was with Maya Angelou. I had the honor of spending a day with her. And she said, it aggravates me when they say that I'm a gifted communicator. And I said, why? She said, show me a gifted heart surgeon. I work at this. She said, do you see these books around here? I said, yes, ma 'am. When I was raped and I went into a catatonic state and didn't speak, my grandmother brought a lady here to help me and to tutor me.

1:09:12And she said, I want you to start there and start reading these books and give me a report. And she said, one day she came to this lady and she had written something she was very proud of. And she went, and this lady said, you can talk, read it to me.

1:09:41she said you can talk and her mother was standing there and didn't intervene and her mother always defended her and this woman who wrote i know why the caged bird sings she said you can talk talk now and the reason she stopped talking when she told on her uncle the man the neighbor who raped her. They beat him to death. And she felt personally responsible and went into a catatonic state. And on that day, she said, she said, speak, you can speak. And she started reading on that day. And that lady helped her to get her voice back. She had swallowed her voice because of the trauma of feeling as a young kid, I caused someone to be killed because he raped me.

1:10:42And that was heavy for her. And so all of us are born the same way, dumb, naked, and speechless. We can learn. I didn't do what I'm doing now for 14 years. I told Mike Williams, I said, Mike, I can't speak, man, like Zig Ziglar. He said, you can. I said, look, Tony Robbins and all those guys. He said, Browning, you go hear those guys because it's in you. That's in you. And sometimes I feel that you have to believe in somebody's belief in you until your belief kicks in. And I was at an event. I think it was a Bob Proctor event. And a guy was speaking, man. And here I am there, and all of us had moments when we feel a speaker is just talking to us.

1:11:37You've had people who say, you, you, you, you, you were talking to me, and, and this was my day. And this guy was speaking, he stopped. He said, hmm, there's somebody here who should be up here holding this mic. I'm standing in your dream. and you've convinced yourself that you can't do it, that you don't have what it takes. And I'm here to say that it's not what you don't have, it's what you think you need in order to do this. Mind you, you know, I'm here thinking, I don't have a college education. And so then he went on speaking. He said, I'm going to say this, and I'm not going to say it anymore.

1:12:19You're out there squirming in your seat right now. he said he was looking over the audience and I'm saying to myself is this guy looking for me and then he said the reason I'm standing up here and you are seated out there squirming in your seat I represent the thoughts you have rejected for yourself man that's like he punched me in the gut I jumped up I had a dime I went to a pay phone I called Mike Williams my mentor I said Mike he said Brownie, what's wrong? I said, listen to me, Mike Brownie, calm down. No, I'm not rejecting myself anymore. Do you hear me, Mike? I'm not rejecting myself anymore.

1:13:01My mother has breast cancer and she needs me. And all I got is my voice. I can't get a job. I don't have a college education. All I got is the ability to talk to people. I got to use my voice to help Mama. No job is going to pay me enough money to get the help that she needs. Most people don't know. 95 % of people who filed bankruptcy do so because of medical expenses. And when he said that, I said, I got to speak. There's an African proverb that says, if there's no enemy within, the enemy outside can do us no harm. Shakespeare said, the Fort Debrutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves, and we are underlings.

1:13:58I was living a small life and you can't fit a big dream or a big voice in a small mind oh my gosh come on by the way what's crazy is God's so good I gave a talk this weekend I gave one quote which was that African proverb you just quoted but my gosh that story alright everyone I know you want less here four hours I do too this episode is brought to you by Marshalls where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers at Marshalls hustle hard, working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff.

1:14:40Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop online at marshalls.com.

1:14:50When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow The Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way.

1:15:27The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. And I think you'd agree with me too, whether it be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called The Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming how we talk, listen, and interact. And I'm really excited to get into this topic.

1:15:59So Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first. Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat, or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican, something like that, you know, these hard conversations, what are some of the keys in being better at doing it?

1:16:32So it's actually a productive experience. There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very, the conversation will remain difficult. There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions. And we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobled and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly, we can say, okay, what's driving my opinion?

1:17:11And we sort of can open our hand and go, this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking. This is what my standards are. There's four archetypal questions in the book. This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. Here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with fists and fists coming at each other. Yeah. You also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself, is to fall in love with asking questions. Right. You're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement or you got to talk about something different.

1:17:54Like I've used I've used politics as an example because it's the big one. Right. Right. Like they're good. I'm right. You're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions. right right and and the the idea of whether i'm doing it to myself and asking myself what's driving my opinion what's driving my judgment and why am i so hooked on the thing right we can also the questions help us like each question help us open someone else's hand because we can ask but what what do you what do you really want what do you what do you desire here what do you want out this.

1:18:31What are your standards for measuring this opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist, right? But we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we're rewarded for raising our hand. And then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room, right? And that's a counter to the opposite effect is asking questions. Well, this notion of raising your hand was my next thing. So you're reading my mind. And I think one of the art forms of being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening.

1:19:12And that's why questions matter so much. And you're precisely right. In school, the teacher's still talking and asking the question. We're taught. We're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me, I want you to speak to this. To me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand, you know, metaphorically when most other people are still talking and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person?

1:19:43Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I want to say something and rather finishing and letting them finish their statement. Yeah. So our brain is spinning our answer. And so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person right and and part of that that actually the main reason that is we are we get addicted to our position our ego and our identity gets addicted to i believe this and if i believe this is true then that is that defines who i am and that that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter uh you know in defensively you know and and can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion.

1:20:29I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what's driving this other person's thinking. But if I just want to go back for a second, everybody, first thing to ask yourself is what's your ability to ask questions and to ask questions without judgment as someone's answering you. In other words, can you learn this, the art of not raising your hand metaphorically when someone's talking and be fully present with their answer absent as much as you can of judgment? We'll talk about triggers in a little bit because you have some brilliant stuff in there on triggers, which I teach in other areas of life.

1:21:01I never thought about in terms of a conversation. But the one thing that opened my eyes and why I wanted you on, among many things, is this idea of there's four conversations. Right. And one of them is storytelling. But take the time on this and elaborate. What are the four different conversations and what do they mean? So these are four types of conversations. They organize the book. And the reason they work well to do that is they each conversation has its own lessons to learn, tools to try, practices to try on, because each conversation demands different skill sets. And they're all interconnected.

1:21:39We're generally without knowing about the conversation. We're just in conversation like fish and water. And as soon as we get, wait a minute, there's storytelling, there's collaboration, there's creativity, and there's commitment conversations. Already, we have a different lens to think about conversations. If I took you to spend six months with the Inuits in Alaska, and they taught you there's 27 names for snow in those six months, when we came back to New England, you would never see snow the same way. Because all of a sudden you have distinctions about snow that allow you to see and perceive and have a different story about snow.

1:22:20right conversation is the same way if we can begin to think about different conversations and different ways to listen and different ways to ask questions and why it matters we can't be in conversation as innocently right yeah yeah we go oh i get i need to wake up here a little bit because i'm locked down and i'm creating a fight because i'm locked down right So that's why the four conversations are just the beginning to say we can start looking at conversations with a better lens. Yo, so good. The four he said, by the way, I just want to make sure you get it, are storytelling, collaborative conversations, creative conversations, and commitment conversations.

1:23:01I want to give you a compliment on how your work helped me a little bit on the storytelling part or listening for someone's story. um i have a friend who i was watching two friends argue one's very right wing and one's very left wing both these dudes i love i love both these guys and i actually understand the perspectives of both of them and so the conversation was actually about welfare and uh taxes and my left-leaning friend was you know they were kind of arguing at first and you know that you know you should be paying your fair share you don't want to help the underprivileged you don't know what this is like and the other guy's like wait a minute you shouldn't be lazy and you get a job and it should be temporary and the normal position they're both really getting ingrained in it because of your work i'm like wait a minute and one guy that was for welfare i said i said john i said brother really what's the story like why are you so passionate about that welfare should exist right god wanted to build a bridge between these dudes and anyway john who by the way you resembled John visually.

1:24:03John says he's a really strong, masculine guy. And he goes, well, man, you guys don't know this, but I was on welfare. I was a little boy and it saved my family. And there was a time where as a little boy, I was actually with my mother on the street begging for money so we could eat. And it was a horrible existence. I was a scared little boy and it was traumatic for me. And thank God my mother got on welfare. And you know what? My mother stayed on welfare for quite a while. And my mom didn't really turn her life around, but I did. And now I'm a major league tax player. And I know you, buddy, over there on the right side, like all the taxes I'm playing, but you don't know what it's like not to have food.

1:24:43And I watched him tell the story and I had to force it. And I watched my right-leaning friend And listen, and the judgment level, which is what you talk about, the judgment level was so far reduced. This is the case, ironically, where the story served us. Yeah. And because I kind of forced it because of your work to listen. And that kind of comes from questions. And it goes to my next point with you. You talk about triggers often. This welfare conversation from my friend was a trigger why he was getting angry with the right-leaning friend. Like, you're not sensitive. If you don't care, he's triggered by that thing.

1:25:22So talk a little bit about in ourselves evaluating our triggers when we're listening to somebody. The storytelling conversation is the first one for a very good reason, because unless we begin to understand the stories we tell ourselves, right? Some help us, some harm us, right? But until we understand our storytelling patterns, and I use patterns in a very particular way because it takes sting out of judgment. The patterns we have around stories and patterns we have around how we get triggered, the patterns we have around reacting to people, we didn't even choose those. They're unconscious patterns by our family, by our culture, by our teachers, by our friends, just our social stuff.

1:26:08So we have patterns, right? So we can start looking at the story I'm telling as a pattern. I can then look at myself with less judgment. And in a way, what your friend did was he was able to reveal his story about his childhood. And there's a couple of things happening that he's revealing. He's opening his hand. I'm concerned because I know what it's like to be on the other side. I have my standards say that, you know, we can afford to help take care of some of these people because they do need it. And, you know, so so he revealing his hand and also it begins to show some vulnerability. And so if I show some vulnerability, the other person or in your case with that conversation, as your friend shared his story, that vulnerability changes the other person that reduces that tension.

1:27:06all conversations where there's tension, they're somehow involved in that is a judgment of the other person. What does one do? Because it's hard. You're like, this guy's crazy. He's out of his mind. What a bozo. You know, like it's very difficult to do. He really believes this crap. You catch yourself mid-sentence already raising your hand going, this dude is, I got to, let me fix this guy, right? Let me fix this. So what do you do when you're starting to feel this judgment or, a second. Because maybe the guy is crazy. But what I found out in my life is you're not going to change that person by attacking them.

1:27:42You're not going to change that person by somehow being more authoritative than them, which we'll talk about in a minute in business about the power dynamic. But what is a practice that I can do when I'm in mid-judgment almost of somebody going, what in the world are you talking about? Is there something you do? What's a technique or a thought? One technique I like, and it's sort of a metaphor of if something's coming at you and you really dislike what's going on, your automatic pattern is to react. Yes. Right? Because it goes into your system, goes through your brain, and the pattern pops out.

1:28:22Very little effort on your part. That's right. That's right. It's triggered. So the idea is to begin to name your patterns. so if you have a pattern of where a certain person kind of person or a certain kind of conversation whether it's politics or sex or abortion that is a trigger for you just be totally aware of that pattern and name it in fact there's there's a thing called voice dialogue where you can actually name that voice in your head like there's um there's snobby chuck or there's intellectual chuck or there's hurt little boy chuck yeah you know you can sort of name it and if you can name the patterns and become familiar with it very good then you might be able to catch it before it enters your body it loses its power over you when you become aware of it and name it yeah yeah and then you can catch it and then if you catch it then literally in the book those four questions that i that peppers through the book yeah just ask yourself is there a power issue here If I have a strong judgment, what standard am I basing that on?

1:29:32I mean, standards are in every judgment we have. This is the Ed Mylon Show.