This is how Russian spies kill on British soil

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0:38Marina, hey, it's Olly Dougmore at The New Statesman. Really looking forward to having you in our studio and looking forward to our conversation. I think a lot of our listeners will have an image in their heads when you say the words Alexander Litvinenko to them. And I really want to talk to you about the story, his story, your story, what it means. And I mean that in the most sort of historic sense as well. I don't just want to talk about the poisoning and what happened afterwards. I want to talk about how you guys got to know each other and what led you up to that point. Like I said, I'm really, really looking forward to meeting you.

1:17I will see you soon. Take it easy. I'm very happy. It's very nice. Because I would love to tell my story. Every single people know it's a picture, it's an awful event in November 2006. but it's a lot of things happened before and after and I'm very happy to share it with you. You may succeed in silencing one man but the howl of protests from around the world will reverberate, Mr Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life. These are the words of Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko written from his hospital bed days out from death after an excruciating month suffering from radioactive poisoning.

2:03I'd guess you remember this certain chain of events with one image, the snapshot of a frail but defiant Litvinenko covered in wires, staring from his hospital bed. A small pool of blood beside him on his pillow. 20 years later, Putin is still president. Over a dozen Russian-linked deaths on British soil have been deemed suspicious, and Litvinenko's wife, Marina, continues his howl of protest. I'm Oli Doug Moore, and you're listening to The Exchange from The New Statesman. And I hope you enjoy the conversation. Marina Litvinenko, hello. How are you? Hi. How are you? Yeah, not too bad. Thank you.

2:39I'm really looking forward to talking to you. I want to talk to you about Alexander, Sasha. And I obviously want to talk to you about your book as well, Over Your Shoulder, A Life in Fragments. Let's start. Let's begin at the beginning. You were born opposite the Kremlin. Talk to me about your early childhood, your relationship with your parents and life in the Soviet Union. Yes, thank you to ask me. Because every time when we're talking about event, Alexander Litvinenko, London, November 2006, people started to realize just what happened that time. But of course, many things happened before. And of course, I was born.

3:21I was born in Moscow and I was born in a state which now does not exist. It was Soviet Union. And it's very interesting to talk how you grow up and how you change your country with your life too. From Soviet Union to Russia, from Russia to another Russia now under Putin. And I think it's very interesting to talk how country changed, how you changed, and how many things have changed in a good way, in a bad way. And, of course, talking about Soviet Union, mostly people remember it was a country that other world described as enemy. It was a fight, fight between communism and capitalism. and I was born in a part what was supposed to be enemy for all but we've been so much isolated from other world and I as a child I believed I live in the best country and I should be just a privilege and happy and this was for time when you became maybe teenager and you have more questions but not enough answers and something what you really know it looks like very bad but why people say no it's right.

4:40And this is what might happen to my country too. And at the end of 90s, when I was already in the late 20s, country started to change dramatically. And people have been so happy to accept this change. And this is what happened to my generation, but generation of my parents who grow up before the second world war who've been i would say fighting for their life all time they were not maybe able to fight for freedom they did not understand what does it mean to be freedom what does it mean freedom of speech of election they never needed but younger generation already started to change country. And we embraced everything, all changed, even if it was very difficult to change for one day.

5:41It was exactly when I met Sasha, my husband, Alexander Litvinenko, because crime, some dangerous moments became quite crucial. and this was all what became as a new part of my life but already with Sasha yeah I want to talk to you more about your your first meetings with him and and actually I have questions as well about that transition and that moment of change just interesting listening to you talk then about your time as a teenager and when you started to question things about communism and I just wonder what it was that sparked those things in your mind you know what was it more uh popular culture things like fashion and music?

6:21Was it political? And was it, you know, seeing both what was happening on a geopolitical level, perhaps within Russia as well? What were the kind of moments that triggered you to start questioning and wondering about the communist system? Of course, when you are a child, you are just happy to be in some rules, to join organization, we're all obligated to be pioneer. It's just no questions. If you're not a pioneer, it means you are a very strange person. And after you became like a teenager, 13, 14, you became a young communist. And again, if you're not joining this organization, it looks very strange.

7:03Or your person just not allowed to join this. You committed some very bad things. And this is all what was as a stamp on you. If you are not being on this position, it's something wrong with you it's just a few people who refused and they've been very brave because they are just cut everything what might be in the future not any career you can't join any good position or any job we all knew this and this is what we are talking now about of limit i always saw we i have a limit i just allowed to do this from that to that only certain people from uh i would say privilege level we did not have corruption what we're talking about now but we have a privilege and if you join this level or this position and you have everything what you might be dream in soviet union but not all other people but we didn't know this for sure and we were just happy people tried to do uh very hard work it looks like we always survived it's just sometimes people might raise voice and ask what something happened to us i'll tell you one event happened in 1962 but about that people started to knew only after Perestroika because it was all covered but this was a huge event in the south of Russia when people from factory went just outside and asked for their rights because salary became very low but price of some important product for food became very expensive and this was very serious clash and some people even died because it was army involved but they never heard about this And this was for some time when it was all covered because it was a very strong position of KGB.

9:10Never ever any jokes, never ever any interest. They tried to prevent. But again, you can't keep this for a long time, particularly when you try to bring Soviet Union to open world. And for my life, this first event, it was Olympic Games. in 1980 we were all preparing to invite people all around the world to moscow of course not everyone came because this was war in afghanistan what soviet union started and we did not have united state we did not have great britain but anyway it still be a big big celebration and this is right again the question why we can't live all your life not just a few days during Olympic Games.

9:58And, but for, again, for people, life was not only surviving because it was very difficult, but someone joined dancing, some doing some musical exercise. It was a lot of sport, but in a certain level, what we just allowed to. Yeah, it's, I guess, inevitable that at that time in your life as an adolescent person, when you're becoming more of an individual and you're starting to ask questions about why things are the way they are. It's almost inevitable that clash is going to come at that point. Let's talk about meeting Sasha. I mean, when you met him, tell me, what did you know about him? Did you know what he was doing, what he did for work?

10:38There's also an evocative story in the book about bananas as well on one of your early dates. So tell us that story. 1993. Years are quite dramatical. after Kekachipe. It was some, we call, putsch. It happened in 1991. And when it was a decision to change this direction, Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union, just tried to make some reconstruction of the Soviet Union to make it a little bit easier, controlling by security service, open some economical ways. But some people in Russia and in Soviet Union didn't want it. And this was some serious clash, but it's just accelerate all ending of Soviet Union.

11:32And finally, we have collapse of Soviet Union in 1991, and we have a new Russia and another 15 different countries. What was before? One country, Soviet Union. It was a very difficult time because before that it was full control of economy. We never ever have a private business. And people never ever became extremely rich so quickly. And because you have rich people, you have a lot of money, you have crime. And this crime became enormous. This was first Sasha's, my husband, position of work in the new security service. He didn't work in KGB before 1991. But he started to work for this new system without name.

12:20Before FSB called FSB, it was three different names. And I've met Sasha through my very close friends. They claim some crime against them. And this was high-profile crime because people who asked for money, they did work in security service. In this case, Sasha started to investigate. And before I met him, I heard about him. He was so funny. He was so easygoing. He could make a joke. And when they decide to go to, not to celebrate, but say happy birthday, Marina, they decide to go together. They were not sure how they're safe. And Sasha said, OK, I can go with you. And how I met him on the day of my birthday.

13:14and after we became family, I always told him, you are my birthday present. So sweet. Tell me about that moment and that transition then. You're mentioning the fall of communism, the potential corruption, the crime, the oligarchy that came out of it. I mean, how did you feel about that moment? And actually probably really importantly, what did Sasha think about that moment and that transition as well? Till, I would say, 1994, it looks like chaos, but it still be absolutely every year. We could buy something we never ever saw in a shop. And technology changed very quickly too. Investment to Russia as a state and to Russia economy was absolutely enormous.

14:08We saw on TV program, again, never been created during Soviet time. This was all so fast. And sometimes you could not notice some critics or what is wrong. But of course, watching TV and crime chronic was absolutely awful. It's like you could not believe it happened in your country. But again, ordinary people were suffered because price of everything. You can buy, but if you have money, but you have money, only you have a job. And not all job was very well paid. And this is, again, this was a lot of different situation for people who became extremely rich, for people just who lost job because it's nobody interested of this job anymore, like privatization.

14:57And Sasha working in this subject, very high profile organized crime. This is all became very quickly because private business need to be secured. And police was not able to do this. And this was a lot of gangsters who could come and make this offer. I can protect your business if you will pay me. And not any other will come and ask for money for you. But after a few years, it became even worse because police and gangsters started to work together. It was negotiation, what business and how they will control. And of course, for Sasha, as a top level of security, this was a lot of work to do, to find.

15:48But businessmen must make a statement. But not all businessmen were happy to go and ask for help because they're better to pay gangsters or corrupted police than to make this is all things doing well. And this is what was for Sasha. And he tried even to write down one very special statement to show how all this criminality, how all this business and how even security service started to build a very new, I can't say elite yet, but the power. And next step, what they're going to try to do, to reach politics. And he said it might be a very dangerous movement. And next election to parliament, it was a lot of people with a criminal past elected.

16:41This is how Russia system started to be created and move, how we call now mafia state. Okay, well, let's talk about Boris Borisovsky now, you know, a central figure in your family's life. Tell me, who was he to both the FSB and the Russian government, but also who was he to Sasha and what did Sasha think of him? First meeting happened in 1994. Boris Berezovsky, not oligarch yet, what now familiar word, but he was not oligarch at that time. he was already very rich man. He created car business. He, as a mathematician, former academical guy, started to create a system how to make a market of domestic cars more effective.

17:34Could you believe just a few years before that, a family in Soviet Union, even you have money, you should wait for six, for seven years to buy a car. And this was Lada. It was not even something specific because having some car as a Mercedes, Volkswagen, it was a miracle. Some people could do this, but not ordinary people. And Boris Berezovsky just creates this business and makes this possible. And of course, he has a lot of profit. And I mentioned already this criminality and some this kind of business was controlled by gangsters. And this was Crosspoint. and this was an attempt to assassinate Boris Berezovsky first time in 1994.

18:17My husband, Sasha Litvinenko, was in a group who investigated this case and how they became quite close. Boris Berezovsky liked him very much because Sasha had this ability to make people feeling easy. He was, what I said, funny sometimes. But from another side, for officer of FSB, it was a good decision to keep Sasha close to Boris Berezovsky. And from one side, secure what situation around him, but from another side to monitoring. And any communication Sasha from Boris Berezovsky was write down a statement. It was not like a friendship. Would you like to go for a drink or for food? No, no. It was all being organized.

19:06But in 1995, when Boris Berezovsky started to became an oligarch because he bought a TV channel, he bought a lot of newspapers, and he became a media magnate. And Sasha saw from him as a very serious move for real change of Russia. and Sasha saw not idolizing him but people might be a good power from just moving Russia forward and Boris Berezovsky was a person you it's so funny I'll say some word from play of Lucifer is a Lucifer made a play based on Luke Harding book very expensive poison and this was exactly this line, you don't know who is Boris Berezovsky, you might love him, you might hate him, but you can't deny him.

20:02This is exactly what about Boris Berezovsky. He was very fast, he was very smart, he was talking just like so fast. But anyway, for Sasha, it was quite a new image of a person who might help Russia to move forward. We've had Luke Harding in the chair that you're sat in, and I would encourage listeners to go back and listen to that episode as well. A very important journalist. Okay, so 1996, Sasha is sent to Chechnya. And you write, quote, For the first time I was seeing doubt in Sasha. He was always so sure of himself, so certain he was on the right side. Now there were questions, and it made him restless.

20:48What changed? Sasha joined the army when he was 17. It means he was put on a track to serve to his country. The country has changed from Soviet Union to Russia, but Sasha still served. And he always believed what you said. He did right things. But war in Chechnya, not from the very beginning. This war started in 1994, but in exactly the point in 1996 when he saw this insight, when he met young Chechen people, it was just the teenagers who fight against Russian soldiers. And when he took a statement from this guy and this boy said, all of us now fighting. And for Sasha, it was a very serious moment, he grew up in a conversation with his granddad who fight during the Second World War.

21:48And for Sasha, it was just like a reflection. It's just they fighting as children during the Second World War against Nazis. And he started just to think what is wrong, what is not right. And this all came together for seeing this war inside, for seeing what's happening inside of his FSB. Because everything became very corrupted. Not a real place for helping people, but making money and sometimes even committed a crime against ordinary people. And this for Sasha all started to make this feeling something wrong. Yeah. And I mean, that really came to a head, didn't it? In 1998, shortly after Vladimir Putin becomes head of the FSB, Sasha and four other officers give a press conference, don't they?

22:44And they echo Boris Borisovsky's claim that his assassination had been ordered by the security services. And they do that publicly. what was your life like after that press conference how did it change it it's quite changed before this press conference because uh started um like march of this year to 1998 until this press conference everything started to be shaking we started to lose stability but it was not as bad as it all started after this press conference because Sasha honestly told me, now we are under control. We can't openly talk on a landline and something might happen to him. This was the worst I could hear.

23:39He said, I might be arrested. I might be killed. I say I just don't accept any of this but I try to think okay maybe not maybe nothing will happen but it took another four months when just Sasha was arrested and put to prison and this is of course all a case they just created Sasha didn't commit any crime but what I heard from prosecutors they said he shouldn't go to press conference. Everything what he did openly criticized. Now he just received punishment. And I think you were followed around Moscow as well, if that's right. You were tailed. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So that's the secretive nature of, I guess, life at that point.

24:35You leave Russia in the year 2000. Am I right in saying that at the time you didn't actually know that that was you permanently leaving? You know, you didn't know that at that moment in time. No, I didn't know. I didn't know what Sasha is planning. I didn't know even he asked me to travel to Spain for holiday. It was some kind of security rules. It was not too much for me. I just follow what Sasha asked me. But when we started to discuss about my not return back to Moscow, So, of course, I was shocked. I was not really ready. I didn't know where to go. I even have no imagination where we're going and what might happen to us.

25:22Anatoly, our son, was six years old. I never asked him, would you like to move, to leave his grandparents behind? And we were very close. and we lived in a very happy big family as much we can be big but at the same time all in russia changed so quickly so dramatical and put in as a new elected president changed a lot of things and boris berizovsky became as an enemy number one and he was under arrest i mean he was not in Russia at that time. But if he decided to go back to Russia, he would be arrested. And for Sasha, it was the same, a very serious message. He might go back to Russia because when we talked about this whole plan, he was not in Russia already.

26:20He was able to get out. But he said, Marina, without you, without Anatoly, I'm going back because you are my family and only this whole movement and protect you. And this my decision to protect us. And I said, Okay, I'm not going back to Moscow. I didn't know what I'm going to say to my mom. I didn't know what I to say to my dad. I just was thinking, we're going to save our family. Yeah, I think so much of the popular imagination about the people that work in security and intelligence you know it focuses on the things people see in films and reading books right you know it's james bond and it's explosions and helicopters and all that and i think sometimes it's overlooked but i also think a lot of the time people wonder about the sort of emotional toll that that takes on the people who are directly involved in in it whether it's you know the extent to which a husband tells his wife what he's doing at work or vice versa wife tells their husband um and in extremists you know it can mean things like you've just very emotionally described you know moving away from your family your friends and sometimes not even having a full picture about it and and knowing that that was happening i mean what's it like a marriage like that right where sometimes for your own safety even your husband can't always tell you things that, you know, most of the time, when I talk to my wife when I get home from work, I tell her everything that happens.

27:57And obviously, if you're working in security and intelligence, you can't really do that, can you? It must be so hard. I was trained, I would say, and when I, not complained, but when I said to Sasha before, why you can't come home exactly the time you promised? He said, I can't. Then when he came a little bit emotional and I just said why so emotional he said he told me okay would you like me to walk around home for two hours come down and then came back as a normal I said no better come like this and be with me um we did not have a mobile phones before and this was a pager This is quite interesting.

28:45And I had pager and always watching for messages from Sasha. And sometimes it was not even message for one day. And when I asked him after that, Sasha, it's quite nervous. I mean, nervous when you did not text me. He said, Marina, I couldn't. But if it's not three days, any messages, it's OK. It's all fine. After three days, you might start some rice questions. If something happened, you will know it immediately. You know, this was every time like this. And it's quite strange. This is all difficult moments. But Sasha was a very, very good person to feel me safe. He really tried, even extraordinary situation, to done everything.

29:36I should be safe. because I trust him. Even I might ask after press conference, but what is he going to do? It's all bad. Even after saying I might be killed or arrested, Sasha could make something to feel me relaxed and safe. This was his extraordinary ability, really. Stay with us. We're going to take a quick break. And if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button so you never miss a conversation.

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31:08I mean, so you all eventually became British citizens. And, you know, to talk about the politics in that moment, you know, around the turn of the millennium, it's a time of warming relations, right, between the UK and Russia. Tony Blair met with Vladimir Putin in secret in St. Petersburg. Talked to me a little bit about the process of applying for political asylum and what it felt like to be, I guess, the people in that moment whilst these big geopolitical changes in the relationship are happening at quite a macro level, what it felt like to be a family underneath it, beneath it. Yes, and exactly.

31:49We had the political asylum. British citizens we became in 2006, just before Sasha was poisoned and killed. But in 2000, why we didn't go directly to United Kingdom? because they've been refused to accept. And the moment when Sasha was waiting for his travel document in Georgia, it was easiest way to escape from Russia and his situation because he did not any other travel documents. He was not able to travel abroad. But to go to Georgia, he at least might be with other help to have these travel documents. And it was a request from people knew us and knew Sasha to British Embassy in Georgia to give us like a green light.

32:43But it was not. Because for Tony Blair then to make some clash, conflict with Vladimir Putin was not planned. And this was for us red light to go to United Kingdom. Why this was a lot of movements going to American embassy. Again, this was not direct line because they said we have to wait. Then we went to, in Turkey, we traveled from Antalya to Ankara, Baykar, from Ankara to Istanbul. And only in Istanbul, we started to discuss where, what is next. and when we finally decided to go to United Kingdom because we didn't need a transfer visa and of course it was risk but we landed in Heathrow Terminal 3 and Sasha with the help of our very good friend Alex Goldfarb because we did not speak any English and Sasha said I'm officer HGB and I'm asked for political assignment This is all what happened in 2000.

33:54I mean, how safe did you feel at the time? And particularly once you're in London, you know, you've arrived because, you know, Sasha wrote a book, didn't he, talking about the apartment bombings as a false flag operation and justification for the Second Chechnya War. that helped bring Vladimir Putin to power and was working with both the British and Spanish intelligence services at one point for helping to deal with organized crime. Yeah, I mean, how safe did you feel in the United Kingdom? From the beginning, we did feel very safe. And I would say it was just like some fair tale. When Sasha said, we are in kingdom, we are under protection of the queen.

34:43and we just an island exactly and another thing it was my my dream destination as a former ballroom dancer it was my dream to go to UK and particularly to Blackpool because this was the biggest the most famous ballroom dance festival and Sasha after that he just told me it was your dream you have it now why are we here now in UK but of course it was a joke Sasha tried to be accurate. Sometimes he could just ask me, not let Anatoly go himself to school. And Anatoly, he was already 10 years old and he was very unhappy when I should take him to City of London school for boys. Because all boys did travel from different parts of London.

35:34But I took him to school and I met him after school. Again, was it like a special security? just in case. And Sasha believed of his professional skills. He few times prevents some kind of things when it's connected to another people. And he knew he might do this for himself too. We have some not very pleasant case when people try to throw to our house in Maslow Hill some cocktail molotov and police was involved. This was a year before all happened. But again, we never had a special protection. We never have bodyguards. Only things that we have, it's different names. And when we apply for political asylum, we decide to have different names.

36:26And I think, again, when Sasha decides this to do, he knew. Russian authorities always try to make people abroad who particularly escaped very difficult. And they put names in the Interpol, like a red notice. And when you travel under your name, you would be always stopped if it's in a list. And it might take a day, two days, and another worse situation to be extradited. and this was a very smart things and how we became family of Carter and I think when you when you got your asylum as well you you went to Blackpool didn't you and you celebrated you actually you went and visited right yes it was the first time it was absolutely incredible because I've met some my friends ballroom dancing is so international and some people I did dance before already lived in United States, some of them in New Zealand, in Europe.

37:26And to go to Blackpool, it was so nice just to watch dancing to very famous names. And of course, met your friends. Okay, so let's talk about the poisoning. And it's, you know, it's the part of the story that I think most British listeners will be very familiar with because of the picture. You know, it's on the front cover of the book. I think it's lodged in many people's minds. You know, Sasha looks gaunt. He's looking directly down the lens of the camera, you know, the small pool of blood on the pillow next to him. And I want to talk about, yes, that picture, but also kind of the story. And it broke the public through the image.

38:12But how did you come to understand what happened? I mean, I think publicly that picture comes out and then everyone goes, oh, my God. But what about you? When did you realize? When did it become clear what happened to you? First of all, we need to say it did not happen in one day. He was not poisoned and died. He was poisoned 1st of November, deadly poisoned. And investigation proved he attempted to poison Sasha what happened even before, two times. But 1st of November, it was a dead dose of polonium, and he died 23rd of November. It means from 1st to 23rd of November, Sasha was constantly in pain.

38:58He could not eat. And what we see in a photo, or what we say iconic, This was afterwards this all day, all time, every day. He hardly can just drink water. His body didn't accept any food. He was in pain. And it became just worse. But it was difficult to prove till he started to develop these signs of radioactive illness. Because for such it was obvious he was poisoned. And he tried to tell me this immediately in the night when he started to feel so bad. But for me, again, it was so difficult to believe. They finally found him and they tried to do something bad. And we tried to discuss maybe it's food, maybe something like a season flu.

39:57and when it became even worse in the second night because Sasha stayed at home ambulance came to us Sasha was checked but they even try not to approach him very close because girls who came to us they said it looks like a seasonal flu you better keep him at home because in hospital situation might be even worse give him more water it's all going to be fine but for me it was strange his temperature of his body was very low it was not as a high it was not fever he always asked for like extra fresh air it was quite to say it was the same taste as now but it was already crispy cold and he asked please could you open the window and after two nights he became even more terrible and starts to be other signs of illness and how we call to another ambulance.

41:01He was taken to hospital. And here, I believe now we will find what happened to him. Even if Sasha is still saying I might be poisoned, but after all tests, after all checking, doctors will know what happened to him. But I was wrong. They make some kind of stability he a little bit uh they stopped his sickness he can talk he can even walk a little bit but we didn't know it's it's not finished on only in 10 days after everything happened he was checked and only because i said something wrong for what you're doing it just doesn't prove it's not e-coli bacteria in his colon it's not other things it's not reaction on antibiotics but what why he became worse and that was first time when he was tested for poisoning and tallyum was discovered in his blood and this is only day when investigation of poisoning started and the same time he was transferred to university college hospital but this has became just like very fast and every day changed his health every day changed his image and when i saw him in in intensive care unit i couldn't believe it's the same person what i saw yesterday and this was exactly time when photograph photograph how does to say when it was request could you make a photograph of sasha i was not sure i would love to but sasha was how you say it he was a very strong and very determined and he said yes we have to take this photo.

42:58And maybe he already in his photo tried to send this message. What this man he blamed of his death, Vladimir Putin, what the state is capable. And he tried to do this before he died. Do you understand how impactful, how powerful the photograph was going to be? No, really. I didn't expect any support. I did expect support from friends, from, okay, it was medical staff who tried to save Sasha. Of course, from police, we started to develop very good relationship. But I didn't know what would be reaction and why people will support us, really.

43:57You mentioned that Sasha named Vladimir Putin. And he gave a statement from his hospital bed, didn't he? I mean, what did it mean to you to hear that? It's still a very brave thing to do, you know, in that condition. I think a lot of people would think about themselves there. You know, it's not a, it's not really a position of strength, is it? It's a position of weakness. You're in the hospital, very, very sick to possibly do the bravest thing, which is to name the person responsible. What did you think when he did that? it's all just unbelievable and something special about sasha about his ability to see a future i don't know how does it call and sometimes things what people couldn't believe when he said about putin about what might happen to russia of course it was not some mysterious ability It was absolutely calculating and understanding the system, what these people capable.

45:02He'd been working and serving in this system since he was 17. He knew people from inside, in army, in security service. And when he asked for photo, when he agreed to cite this statement as a person who died already. I was so disagree. But we need to mention another thing. All this time he worked very hard with police. He made few statements to describe what happened, what time, what place. He already tried to investigate his case, what became the background of all this investigation after he died and particularly after polonium was discovered and we know now it's traceable and because sasha said where he went who he met this is was all possible to check and this is what sasha did with all these three very serious points photograph statement and this police investigation sport we know that within months the two men that the police wanted to question were back in Russia.

46:25Their names were Andrei Lugovoy and Dmitry Kovtun and you'd actually met one of them before at a party. Yes, I've met Lugovoy, yes. And since then elected to the Duma. I mean, how did it feel to watch that person go on and start a political career? I always said it looks like a succeed. He killed my husband. He was granted this position. But for me, like all world know he's a killer. And you just can't say it. I don't care. Like every time watching to the mirror and see yourself as a killer. What happened to his personal life? I know his wife, he was in 2006 together and his son divorced. This is just a separation.

47:21And it might be this reflection of his ex-wife for what he did to bring even a child for meeting with Alexander Litvinenko in the moment when Sasha was poisoned. And I don't think he is the happiest person. I mean, I don't feel nothing, I'm not feel sorry for him. But I think he already been punished just to have this image of person who killed, who used radioactive material, and it stayed with him for all his life. In 2013, Boris Berezovsky, who we've spoken about already, and I said it earlier, was a pillar in your family's life. Very important person for you, particularly in the UK. he died it was ruled as a suicide but he did have many powerful enemies um what do you think happened to him i make some correction please it's an open verdict yes it's a two version he committed suicide or he was killed and when this was in quest it was not actually proved strongly enough for coroner to choose just one version.

48:38I believed he was killed. Why do I think so? And KGB and then an FSB, you don't have a timing for order. If Boris Berezovsky was ordered to be killed, it doesn't matter when and how and he would be killed. situation was so obvious he was damaged after he lost his case against abramovich and uh he was in depression and this is was just uh some one might say it he was uh uh absolutely without money it was not exactly like that he was not as rich as he was before but he could live and he had plans and this is what all happened 23rd of march 2013 i believe was finally finalized his life because this was ordered to kill him so just to be clear what you're saying is that those intelligence services if at any point in the past it's been decided and there's an assassination order has been given it doesn't matter whether it's the next day it doesn't matter whether it's 20 years into the future, that order is permanent.

49:57Like it's hanging over that person for the rest of their life. Absolutely. Yes, you're absolutely right. You spent almost a decade fighting for a public inquiry into that killing and the government resisted, citing international relations as a reason perhaps to resist it. And you had to go to court to force the issue. I mean, what was it like being told that the British government was essentially prioritizing its relationship, its diplomatic relationship with Russia over finding out the truth about what happened to him. Yes, it was very upsetting because I felt quite supported for all time when it was investigation with Scotland Yard, when we apply for inquest first, and I was supported from first coroner.

50:45And then when Sir Robert Owen was named as a second coroner who will take this inquest, everything was going well. And first time when 2012, Sir Robert Owen said, we definitely have evidence against Russia state. It was no more a criminal case. It was a political case. And his all started to change. And feeling support from a law team, from the court, and suddenly not be supported by politicians was very, very upsetting. And keeping narrow inquest just without research and proof Russia stayed behind of this crime. It was not reason. We need to move to public inquiry to make this all possible, to use all documents, not even in public sessions, even in secret sessions.

51:47This was my idea. And I was so grateful. I always was navigated and saying, okay, we can go to public inquiry. We can do this. But I always think you might relax, Marina. You've done everything. But if you feel tired, if you just don't feel energy enough, just okay. But I said, no. If you have this door, we can open. Let's go to this door. And when we received this refused, signed by Theresa May, which is not allowed, we're not granted by public inquiry, of course I was crying because I have no idea what we're going to do. And they say, you're consuming her. It's a very good idea. I didn't know how to do this, really.

52:36But if we have this chance, let's go. But it was a lot of worries about my funds because we changed direction. And now from public inquest, we're going to another jurisdiction. And when it was rules, I might lost my money if I lost case. It was another issue. I thought, what I can do? and my lawyer ben emerson told me marina you've done enough it's just okay you should not be punished from government and lost your own money and i have just a question how much how much we have to pay it was like about 60 000 pounds a lot was my second question do we need to pay immediately like one lump and he said no i said okay in this case let's go and this was my uh um last maybe disappointment because next time when we went to the courtroom and it was decision in our sides it was already kind of victory we have no more uh nobody can stop us after that But it took another almost five months before we received this all right for public inquiry.

54:01And unfortunately, first event as a war in Ukraine happened 2013, annexure of Crimea. And this is all started to be together. Yeah. So the 2016 report finds that Putin probably, quote, approved the killing. 2021 European Court of Human Rights rules that Russia is responsible. I just, I can't help but wonder whether you feel like there's a degree of naivety or ignorance in British politics and British politicians. Because obviously, you know, your husband, Sasha, is poisoned. And then 2018, Salisbury poisonings happens again. The Russian state is demonstrating to Britain over and over again that it is willing to murder people on British soil.

54:51And actually, in both instances, whether it's Polonium, Novichok, you know, there's a possibility. It happened in Salisbury, right? The unintended consequences. British citizens, people who aren't the intended targets, die as a result of their actions. And it all just, it just feels so naive to me. I don't know whether the British state, British politics, British security service are kind of in denial about the reality of the violence that Russia is prepared to conduct or implement on. How do you understand and analyze that fact? I would call this not naivety, but normality. Everything what British government and British state try to do with Russia, it looks normal.

55:33But when you accept all this money, what flew to UK and OK, as a normal, you believe this is so good with investment to British economy, Russian people buying property and everything. But it was Sasha's concern in the beginning of 2000. With this money, you will have more troubles. It was difficult to believe. It's like you have business. Why you have to do something wrong when we're doing business? But in this time, it was maybe difficult to understand. You have business with KGB. It can't be normal business. every time when you're talking to Vladimir Putin, I would say not Vladimir Putin, but with this system, you've been recruited.

56:22You're not taking as a strong part. You always will be looking for what your soft side, it would be always looking what to do with you. And of course, with all this money, infiltration to British politics, to British economy became enormous. But how you could predict? because everyone believed Russia is moving in the right direction. And when you open your hands and you say, this is welcome, that did not happen. I mean, you say, how can you predict? Sasha did in a way, didn't he? I mean, he wrote before he died. I'm quoting him now. If you don't stop this monster, he will start a war and millions of people will die.

57:10I mean, you were in Ukraine when the war broke out in 2022. You've mentioned it already. Your husband seemed to have a pretty good idea of the direction of travel. He seemed to understand what was going to happen. He knew if you not stop Putin, it would be what he said. And Putin looks unstoppable. And for what we have now, it's even more problems and a difficult situation than even before. If that's the case, then what you're doing now, publishing this book, it's a dangerous thing to do. It's a brave thing to do. but putin has so many enemies now like i don't think me is the enemy or kind of enemy but for what i'm doing it still be a kind of justice one day when it not just a case of alexander Litvinenko.

58:13Not only case Skripal, what happened here in UK, many, many other cases, what Putin did against Russian politicians like Alexei Navalny, who was killed in prison, Boris Nemtsov, who was just shot down opposite Kremlin wall. This is all cases, of course, against Ukraine, Georgia, many other countries will bring together as one big solid case against Putin, against FSB, against all this what Russia state, not Russia country, committed all around this world. And what I believed would be final justice. What is your life like now? I mean, you don't seem scared to me.

59:04there's a big smile there for listeners who go on watching this there's a very big smile from Marina there this is exactly what was my policy from very beginning I knew um to be a widow is not my way and I knew Sasha never would be happy for me just to be a widow you always want to be as happy and to live happy life. Anatoly was 12 and it was just what I promise every time to be and help to our son. And I just decide we have to live a happy life for all of us. And talking about Sasha, try to bring what Sasha tried to do. It's exactly the same what he might want it. And I'm so blessed. I be able to live my own life as well, to keep my activities, what I'm happy to do, traveling, on the countryside walking, of course, dancing, meeting friends.

1:00:09I all have it. And I just can't be an unhappy person. I maybe realized after I received tests for Polonie because I was contaminated too. and this was a big moment when I received the result and it would be saying you have one year you might have two years, you might have just very soon but when it was said you have some trace of polonium but it's not damage your life and of course it's not as big as it was for Sasha but we can't predict for how long what might activate some cancer or else and I just decided you have to live your life every day and feel you have to just help you. Maria Litvinenko, thank you so much for giving us your time and speaking to us.

1:00:58I'm very grateful. Thank you for having me. You've been listening to The Exchange from The New Statesman with me, Oli Dugmore, and my guest, Marina Litvinenko. The podcast will be back next week.

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