#116: Taoism & the Neuroscience of the Self - Dr. Aldrich Chan

28:49And so what's going to happen eventually, it takes time, but eventually, you know, if you reach a state of that, some people like to call it the still point, At that point where the point in between thoughts, in between emotions, in between all that activity, it's stillness. It's very peaceful, right? And if you reach that place, eventually the self also starts to dissipate. Because, again, it's a process. And if you break down what the self actually is or is composed of, you'll find most of it is quite malleable and plastic. And so if the self disappears and it's just pure consciousness and you're watching the ocean, the experience of being one with the ocean is naturally going to come.

29:33Right. So it's a, I think, a nice way to sort of think about it. It doesn't need to be something so, so mystical or wow. It's something that will just naturally emerge. And I think that that's the feeling that we likely all had at some point in our lives before the separation really emerged.

29:52Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I love that. And I agree. It's kind of funny that we do call it like original nature or true nature. And we are kind of, that's kind of saying that it's not mystical or anything out there or metaphysical or anything like that. But even I would fall victim to the perception that surely it's something greater or something like that. It's beautiful because it basically, the philosophy will lead us towards the idea that all of us have this nature within us. All of us have the ability to reach it. It's our original nature. And so it's not like, instead of this idea of needing to, let's say, build or create a self in some way, it's actually the exact opposite where we actually discover the original nature.

30:48It's discovered rather than created. And I think that's a nice reframe and very hopeful and promising to lots of people who are suffering from all sorts of different ailments.

30:59Dr. Aldrich Chan:Absolutely. And even the word oneness, I find, is sometimes confusing because one implies two. But I feel like the one is kind of pointed to, like you could almost say nonness. I feel like my favorite way to phrase it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a Taoist researcher, Harold Roth, who I pulled a lot of information from, and he's also at Brown. And he formulated something, you know, there's first person perspective, second person perspective, third person. He created something called the no person perspective. and that's what it is but you know one one way just that i've been thinking about this also is that it's not necessarily maybe that the the self is is dissipated as much as perhaps that the boundaries have dissolved and so it's integrated with something greater than itself and that thing that is greater just so much greater that um the weight of the self and all of its troubles really starts to disappear and it feels like it's dissipated when really it's just, again, the boundaries have been changed or made transparent.

32:12Dr. Aldrich Chan:And when people hear things like this, like the usual question that will come up is, how will I function? What do you have to say about that? Could you still function as a functional adult? Yeah. So here's what I think with that. I like to go to Jill Bolte-Taylor. a neuroscientist who had a stroke in her left hemisphere. And she was only functioning on her right hemisphere for a period of time, right? Largely so. And her descriptions were beautiful. And it was exactly descriptions that people described when they are in these transcendent states, right? The timelessness, the borderlessness, this feeling of connection with everything around oneself.

32:56It's just a beautiful experience. And you're right. When people get into these states, at least fully engaged in these states? How can anybody function? But I think it's not so much about that because, well, because we have the DMN and eventually we return to the DMN. The DMN may be altered in some way, but the separateness will still be there, but we'll just be closer to that nature so that we can still feel the unity within us, yet act accordingly, Right. And, you know, perhaps someday in the future when we all evolve in some in some hopeful direction that that we can, you know, activate these states more intentionally and more at will.

33:39I know that there was recently a study that came out with a lady who was capable of doing this and literally just through meditation. And I'm trying to remember the name. Well, maybe we could put a post on that or something, but I don't remember. But basically, she's able to activate it on command. And so like she's under the scanner and first she's kind of doing her own thing. And then she goes into the meditation and you look at her brain activity. and it's almost identical to someone on a psychedelic. It's really impressive. And there are certain people that can do that. And I think people who meditate more and more and have access to that dimension of experience will be able to carry it more greatly with them into their present lives, but not necessarily be absorbed by it, right?

34:28We're not going to become the primordial soup, as some people like to say.

34:33Dr. Aldrich Chan:Do you have any theories on why meditation does look similar to psychedelics, yet there is no, not to say there's no altered perception, but there's no, there's not like whorthing fields of geometry or something like that. Usually, I mean, there could be, but. I mean, there are lots of people who, you know, who get into, you know, who do meditation retreats and meditate hours and hours on end, and they do see hallucinations and all sorts of challenges that they face and all of these obstacles. But at the end of it, the psychedelic, it's different than naturally induced states of self-transcendence, right?

35:16I mean, you're taking a very strong substance that's acting on mainly 5-HT2A receptors and, of course, many others, but it has a life of its own, right? And so the difference between, you know, an inner cultivated state of being versus a use of a substance. I mean, substances in general, they tend to be more intense, rapid and pulsatile in experience for any drugs. Right. We have endogenous or it's not using big words. We have, you know, we have natural highs and there are artificial highs. and the natural highs are, you know, things like when you, well, have sex and have an orgasm or when you are experiencing a moment of pride or a close connection with a friend, right?

36:06All of these release certain neurotransmitters. But, you know, if you take LSD or take mushrooms or, you know, if you take drugs that aren't so helpful, like let's say cocaine or something, right, those will induce a complete different state. You know, I know lots of people are fans of Alan Watts. And, you know, I love Alan Watts also. He's an intellectual entertainer. He's amazing. But I liked how he described it, right? Where when it comes to the use of a psychedelic, a big difference is that it's like you're hopping on a pogo stick and it lets you hop, hop, hop, and you hop and you can see over onto the other side and see, oh, wow, this whole world exists.

36:46But eventually you sort of come back down, right? You may retain qualities of meaningfulness and acceptance and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, again, we're not becoming absorbed by the other side. Whereas I think instead of hopping on a pogo stick when we meditate, we're creating more transparent boundaries.

37:04Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I like that. That's a beautiful way to put it. And there's two ideas that I'd love to spend a bit of time on. The first is nothingness. In Taoism, that's not a void, which I feel I've heard that they need to, this was in regards to buddhism but they they might need to rebrand it which i find this quite funny but we could talk a little bit about that so it would be like a fertile space of unlimited potential and the second is the uncarved wood so the idea that your true nature doesn't actually need optimizing and both of these push back against i guess like modern uh self-improvement culture and for a meditator that already is like sitting regularly um what does it look like to practice like nothing with nothingness rather than trying to to fill it and what would like living as uncarved wood what would that look like for us in everyday life yeah so josh you mind if i take one little step back um before diving into that because that falls under the principle of creativity.

38:15And I just wanted to, you know, put it into context. So let me just mention what the seven principles are. I'll go back to creativity and then I'll dive into nothingness. Okay. Please. So, so like I said, that falls, that chapter falls under creativity. So does the uncarved wood. We also, so that's the C and actually it spells out the acronym CPR West, right? Which was a, which was a part of the reason for writing this book as well. And so we have creativity. The P is process. The R is relationship. The W is wholeness. The E is equilibrium. The S is spontaneity. And the T is transformation. And as far as I can tell, at every level from quantum all the way upwards, all of these principles apply.

38:58And so the paradigm for me is quite actually simple in the sense that, well, if we accept that creativity is a part of nature and not creativity like you're a creative person, you're in the arts. It's more so the fact that we are in the constant act of being created and recreated over and over and over again. And in fact, what's in front of us is nothingness. And this is kind of trippy for some people, right? Where it's like, well, every single moment that passes by, we're just inching towards nothingness, but something is recreated again or created again or existing, right? And so it's this fascinating, like, I'm not going to fall into nothingness, but potential is continually being realized, right?

39:37And if we accept that change is a constant process, and for me, change is the action of creativity, then, well, we have to stop clinging on to things like identities that we no longer actually are serving us in any way. Some people are, you know, thinking about the quote unquote, the golden days, or they're unable to let go of who they used to be. And it just causes more suffering and they're stagnating. Right. And for that is someone to me that is not aligned with the principle of creativity. Someone aligned with it is someone who would be more curious and open to the process of accepting uncertainty and change.

40:17So that said, we can go, I started with nothingness. And I think nothingness, I put it very early on because I think it's one of the things that really, like you said, sort of diverges from what Western thinking usually considers nothingness. And, well, you already said it, nothingness doesn't imply a void. it's better to be said as no thingness and you've heard of that one no thingness right it's not a thing it's not like a uh you know it's maybe something more abstract or in my in my own metaphysics it's it's an event and events are composed of of mental and physical processes that are constantly in a process that are constantly dynamic and moving and for for Daoists, this fertile expanse of potentiality is what nothingness is.

41:03And there are lots of ways to think about how useful nothingness can be, right? So, you know, in the Tao Te Ching, and just building off of the statements that it makes, a cup is, why is it useful? It's useful because of the, you know, the nothingness within it, or a room. It's useful because of the nothingness here. And it kind of changes the way that you perceive even areas that you walk into, where if I look at architecture now, I'm not just looking at where things are. Oh, here's a window and here's a bell and here's this amazing historical, I don't know, architecture. I think of how do they also position the, or how are the spaces within this place, right?

41:42And sometimes it can bring such beauty, like you walk in and some people say, oh, it's, I feel claustrophobic here, you know. That's the nothingness that's being, that's lacking, we could say, in the architecture. So, you know, so Daoists, they like to approach it from a practical way that's one practical way and of course um well i mean do you have any thoughts or questions at this point i don't want to go off on a no i re

42:08Dr. Aldrich Chan:i really like the emphasis on the space because i find that the things and like mental tension even bodily tension through meditation or these practices qigong and yoga it does seem to reduce the kind of weighting like for me it does feel quite physical and people have a problem with this because there is no there's not really a way to explain that i think currently but particularly like with head tension or like even objects outside of me people or if i do the weight it feels like it feels like things are a little bit thinner and everything just kind of close a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the techniques that we typically use to improve psychological flexibility in the psychological sciences is, you know, meditation where, for example, if you're feeling anxious, right, we can ask someone to sort of close their eyes.

43:08And what do we say? Make space for the anxiety within yourself, right? Imagine that the anxiety has a particular shape to it, right? And maybe you say, oh, it's a triangle and it's pulsating and it's sort of moving and it's like, oh, create more space for it and just observe it neutrally without action, without judging it, without anything, without assigning it labels and just watch and see if it transforms or changes. And a big goal of psychotherapy overall is increasing people's tolerance to suffering and holding ambiguity. And a big part of that is creating more space within oneself, becoming a larger container for these sorts of experiences.

43:49So it's also kind of an interesting intersection.

43:53Dr. Aldrich Chan:It really is. I've heard some people talk about like knots of like resistance or suffering as like an actual knot that if you observe closely, you might see. Usually it's very difficult to pinpoint any firm shape as everything's changing. Right. And that's perfectly fine as well. What other practices would you recommend? Do you practice Qigong or do you have any moving practice in relation to? Yeah, I practice Tai Chi. Every morning I engage in Tai Chi exercises and I also really enjoy the 108 form. So I like to do that sort of over and over again. It helps me get into greater flow states and it feels good.

44:36It feels good to engage in body flow based movements like that. By the way, if we want to get into it with flow, this concept of wu-wei, action, some people call it action through inaction, or it's really effortless action is also another way to put it. but they've done some pretty interesting studies looking at flow also where they would show for example someone who's so you know what's a profession where flow is quite common it's musicians right so they put people like improv jazz pianists and they would have them like play scales under a scanner and then they would have them just improvise and get into a flow state and they looked at what areas of the brain were active or deactivated and well lo and behold similar to what we've mentioned before you know other than of course regions required to be active to be playing.

45:27And one area of the frontal lobes that's related with the observation of conflict monitoring, many other cortical regions were also silenced or shut down. And so again, what was likely very active is, you know, well, the subcortical midline structures alongside, you know, some other peripheral regions. And flow states are fascinating because they're universal. they're universal and anything that's universal means it's been conserved through revolution which means that it was considered important and people might say well how can you say that me being effortful at something is going to be less beneficial for me than not being effortful it's like well let's look at the people who are professionals and when you when I'm a musician also so I play guitar and I've played live music and you know as soon as I become conscious of what I'm doing.

46:17Like I remember this one time I was playing a gig and I was playing a solo and I got into my own mind and I hit the wrong note at the very end of the solo. And I was like, oh no, you know, you know, but, but when you're in the flow state, much more likely to be more effective at what you're doing and more productive and people who have more flow states report greater levels of wellbeing. And so there, there is a lot of evidence to support that these flow states are highly beneficial to productivity.

46:44Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I remember that's such a good point. That's a scary, I remember reading Stephen Kotler's book, I think it's Catching Fire or something fire. Anyway, I think they reported like CEOs were having 800 % increase in productivity when in flow. and basically the effects of modern technology, notifications, because the ease of which you can be brought out of flow and as you said, the correlation between happiness and flow. I think the more flow you have, generally the happy you are, at least in that context. And it's funny that I reference as CEOs, but I guess that was the audience. Right, yeah.

47:31Dr. Aldrich Chan:yeah okay you will often hear these these meditative states being like effort effortless flow and i think that that is akin to what we were describing before and probably one of the best descriptions or something that somebody maybe that hasn't meditated might understand yeah yeah meditation doesn't need to be just sitting down with your eyes closed or eyes open but it could be moving i know in zen practice there's there's walking meditation you know in In Tai Chi Chi Gong, there's standing meditation. There's all sorts of types. And even I think that from the lab of Amishi Jia, she finds that people who are meditating by just walking and just paying attention to their feet, they also show changes in their brain functioning that seem to be akin to changes that they find in mindfulness practices.

48:17So a big part of it is finding an anchor to the present and continually cultivating the practice.

48:23Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I love that. And how else would you recommend people to get into these states or to increase their chance of achieving flow? Yeah, well, you know, the dark side of flow is video games. You've heard of this? Yeah. Video games are designed to basically induce flow states, which is why children can play nonstop. In Kotler's book, right, he has this sort of 4 % rule. If you're functioning 4 % higher, like he says, it's just a theoretical estimate. But whatever you're doing, if you want to engage in a flow state, do something that's 4 % more difficult than what your current capabilities are. Right.

49:01And so similarly, that's what video games do. You beat one level, it gets more challenging and it gets to a point where it matches you. And it's just slightly more difficult and it gets you right into that mood. But then it could become quite addictive in those sorts of circumstances. So your question, I gave a bad example. I don't want anyone to get addicted to video games. I mean, it's an important example. It's true. That is a way to get into flow. But, you know, like I said, engaging in something that is intellectually stimulating and emotionally gratifying. You know, it needs to be, it needs to have both components in order for flow to actually occur.

49:38And it can happen in really anything that you're doing if those, I think those components are very much engaged. There's also, of course, immediate feedback and all these criterias. But I think those two are quite central to finding it.

49:54Dr. Aldrich Chan:I'd love to talk about stillness and the idea of eustress. So that not all stress is bad and that we're looking for, I guess, look at some sort of dynamic set point rather than the absence of stress. So the wellness conversation keeps swinging somewhere between burnout culture and stress is the enemy. So what would you say is the more accurate story? And then practically, what's the difference between like productive stress and the kind that's actually pulling you out of alignment? Yeah, great question. So first, this is the principle of equilibrium that we're at now. And the principle of equilibrium, a little deceptive, because what I really speak about is a dynamic balance.

50:39So I'm a big believer, we could say, or thinker in regards to asymmetry being a little more important than symmetry, actually. Because if we think of complete static balance, then nothing's moving. But humans, we're always moving. We're always constantly on, you know, if you get in a biological perspective, if you're hungry, you seek for food. If you're thirsty, you drink some water, right? You're a little off the homeostasis. It moves you. It gets you to do something. So eustress is this sort of ideal proportion of stress that is actually helpful to you. So most people don't understand that the stress system becomes active, whether you are the vulnerable gazelle that's being hunted by the tiger, or if you're the tiger that's hunting the gazelle.

51:21Both of them have a stress response, actually. And when we say that stress can be helpful, it's because, well, when we are mild to moderately stressed, it can be very conducive for learning and growth, right? Now, you just said, what does that look like? How do you tell the difference? Well, for both of them, well, the stress system is active. So you do get this release of adrenaline. You do get a release of cortisol. You know, your heart might be racing a little bit. You might even have some sweat involved and other sorts of bodily expressions that are similar. The difference, though, with eustress is that you don't feel overwhelmed.

51:56You don't feel or think that you don't have the resources to handle the problem. You're confident in yourself, in your ability to handle what's in front of you, even with this reaction. And that would be eustress. The moment you start feeling overwhelmed, the moment you feel like, I can't tackle this, is the moment it starts moving over from mild-moderate to potentially major or, I don't know, high-moderate or something that can be more detrimental to your health.

52:22Dr. Aldrich Chan:as a tip I love the the pointer to welcome any any feeling of overwhelm I think fun just immediately when I welcome a feeling the space between me and it I guess is increased and then the resilience or ability to change or just move with some form of wisdom I think is increased And what you just pointed to, Josh, is really important because the other part to this is if you find a way to face or confront what you initially considered as overwhelming and you viewed it from a different perspective and you, let's say, made space for it or whatnot, you can convert what you considered previously a major stressor to one that's mild or moderate, in which case you can convert it and make it actually productive to your well-being.

53:14But there are definitely, and that happens a lot. That's a lot of what we do in psychotherapy with individuals, right? When they think that something is too great to handle, but they definitely have the ability to do so. And it's learning what the threshold is. And then there are times when the system is just not working for you. And you are overwhelmed and there is a reality to it. So that's also important to acknowledge.

53:34Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, that's well put, actually. I remember specifically on a retreat that I was on, I was thinking about asking a question to the teacher. And like public speaking, I would say is by far my number one fear. And I was watching the absolute terror in my body and doing the same thing, just welcoming it. And I recognized that the anxiety, the fear was what I would have considered. It was excitement plus resistance. like as I welcomed it it just increased and it looked exactly the same it felt exactly the same as excitement but previously there was just a bit of resistance and then that was in that moment it was just both combined that was creating anxiety and how did how did it come out your question did you asked it eventually yeah the the question came out good I mean the fear the fear came back and I was trying to stay as much as I could with the body right um but it was reduced like it's never the same it's never the same but I think I've probably spent I don't know 30 odd years um pushing down the fear of or pushing down and not asking a question so there's quite a bit of conditioning to undo that I mean you and a lot of other people sure it's always nerve-wracking you know uh in a sense you make yourself a little vulnerable when you ask a question right you.

55:03And also when you are extremely nervous, and I know it sounds like it didn't happen to you, but for some people who have speech tear, you get so nervous that you ask a question and it didn't come out the way that you were thinking about it.

55:17Dr. Aldrich Chan:Definitely happened. Well, in those situations, it's interesting, like from a brain perspective, usually when we're speaking, blood's flowing to an area in the left hemisphere called the Broca's area, which allows us to produce speech or or at least permits or expresses um but what happens in in speech terror is that the blood is rerouted and it doesn't get sent to that area and it gets sent over to your fight flight system which then holds you back from being able to articulate clearly oh wow yeah yeah okay yeah that that makes sense because yeah it'll usually end up some condensed version of like you're just not getting across the key point or something like that right but hey every time you do it it gets easier and easier you know so yeah yeah i mean it's an incredible it's such a good fear to get over a lot of mine is in context i don't know what it is about retreat but i actually feel more fearful then and if i was just in a room i think it's the silence like the holding of silence and then you're just one time a day speaking some questions and right yeah well josh you'd be a great psychoanalytic client where they use silence silence it can be used as an intervention yeah right right but what do you do for your practice or your practices have you got like a main teacher or what kind of stuff well yeah so so i there are a few things that i do i am an i'm obviously i'm a clinical neuropsychologist which means i conduct assessments looking at basically drawing out a comprehensive cognitive profile, helping people identify what their strengths and weaknesses are, and that helps inform treatments and the best recommendations that they can have to live a fulfilling life, we could say.

57:05I also provide psychotherapeutic services. And then I do run a meditation practice. It's a small closed group with just two, three people at a time. I'm an adjunct professor for Pepperdine University. I'm teaching for doctoral students and master's level students. And recently just started a role with a neurofeedback company, which I guess I can't disclose it yet because the contract hasn't been fully signed, but I'm getting on as a senior science officer for them. It's about meditation and it has a Taoist flow to it as well. So it's been really interesting. So, yeah, those are all the things that I do.

57:48And I have the public education platform and I love writing, of course.

57:51Dr. Aldrich Chan:And so, yeah, amazing. And what type of what's like a Taoist meditation or what would be one that you practice? Yeah. So I put a bunch of them in the book, actually. And I also put scripts in there that people can can follow along. For me, I just I like the simplest one. You know, I've tried all the complicated ones where you visualize this and that. And at the end of the day, the easiest one for me is really stillness, stillness meditation, quiet sitting. And, you know, I basically connect my, align my mind with my body, with my breath. And so when I connect my breath with my mind, every time I inhale, for example, I capture what I call nets, which are narratives, emotions, thoughts and sensations.

58:37Anything that's happening and I just blow, like I help facilitate them out as I breathe out. and it's just this continual act of filling and emptying, filling and emptying. And eventually I get to that still point and I like just remaining there for extended amounts of time. And so that's the one I really default to. And of course, I see Tai Chi as a meditation as well. And that's something that I also do quite a bit. But, you know, beyond that, I love playing guitar and playing.

59:04Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I'm constantly surprised by just, well, I do Qigong, which I think is quite similar to Tai Chi. Yeah, quite adjacent, yeah. And it amazes me how much happier it makes you. Like spontaneously happy, which, yeah, my logical brain is like, how is this, like how am I substantially, like during a meditation I might go that way, I might not, and I guess it doesn't matter, but Qigong in particular has a real ability to bring up my mood. And just, you know what, Josh, I really think that seated meditation may not be for everyone. I think that, as I said, I view the mind as part of the brain. The body is part of the mind, right?

59:51And so some people need this movement. And that is one of the big mismatches also, is movement in evolutionary theory. You know, hunter-gatherers, they're moving 14 ,500, 20 ,000 steps a day. and a modern American, at least, is moving about 4 ,500 steps a day. It's barely anything and it leads to all sorts of problems. And so we need to increase step count. But Qigong and these movement-based meditations, the complexity can add to that intellectual stimulation component that can just bring up the endorphins and all sorts of other positive neurochemicals that can make you feel better.

1:00:29Dr. Aldrich Chan:if a listener was to take one one thing from the conversation and build a daily habit around it for for say a month or a week and what would you have them do and what would you expect to shift anything specific perhaps that's worth for you or your clients actually i mean i think a very important part is that's a i feel like there's so many i can i can say i think a very important one, though, is uncertainty, how people work with uncertainty, because it plays a role in everybody's life. And, you know, there are different ways in which uncertainty can be confronted. One of the ways that usually people confront it is when they're presented with uncertainty, they go straight into threat detection mode.

1:01:19Their fight-flight system is very active, and then their frontal lobes are looking for the threat and all these what-if conditions, right? But that's just one way you can approach it. I think we can totally shift that attitude by inhabiting a different mode of experiencing, a process-oriented mode. One where we're really looking at uncertainty as just information. It's information and energy. And when it is uncertainty, we can approach it from an exploratory perspective. And there are benefits to uncertainty as well. when we are uncertain we become more alert when we're uncertain we engaged with the possibilities and uncertainty i always love this one where people say well certainty is the death of a question certainty is also the death of adventure because without uncertainty there is no adventure no spontaneity and fun and in the life that we have to experience and so it's really appreciating the uncertainty and inhabiting an intentional stance of uncertainty.

1:02:23And by doing so, it can really help you face uncertainty with far more confidence and comfort. You know, one of the great popular stories that I love to share in relation to this is a parable from the Huaynaanze about the farmer and his horse. Have you heard this one, Josh? Yes. Yeah.

1:02:46Dr. Aldrich Chan:Do you mind if I share this with the audience? Yeah. So this is a paraphrase, of course. I'm not going to get it exactly right. But there's a farmer. And he and his family are famous diviners. They can predict the future. I'm giving you the legit story because there's also other ways that people have described it and worded it. So there's a diviner and he's a farmer. And he has this beautiful horse. And this horse escapes one day. And the horse escapes. And everyone from the village runs over. and they're like, hey, we're so sorry to hear that your horse has ran away. You've lost such a prized possession.

1:03:25And he looks at them. He's like, no, this will be a very fortunate event. This will be very fortunate. And they're like scratching their heads like, what's going on? This guy is crazy. So they walk away. A week later, the horse comes back with five other horses. And so the stock's even greater now. The villagers stop by and they're like, hey, it's amazing all these horses have come and and you have your your beauty back and the diviner looks at them and he's like no no this is going to be very unfortunate this is going to be very unfortunate they left scratching their heads what's he talking about right a month in the the the farmer's son is training one of these wild horses and gets thrown off the horse and breaks his leg the villagers came by to express their sympathies and again he says no no this will be very fortunate This will be very fortunate.

1:04:13And then, you know, a few months pass by and the son's leg is still broken and an army comes to recruit people. But because his son's leg is broken, he doesn't get recruited. And later on, they figure out that the battle he would have been recruited to, nine out of 10 people died. And so the villagers stop by to share how fortunate he is. But he says, no, this will be very unfortunate. This will be very unfortunate. it. So it's a fantastic, a fantastic parable. And, you know, there's a maybe version to this where he says, oh, maybe, maybe, you know, that could also be powerful. But I like this idea of, and it's one of the things that suggests in the Dao De Jing is like when you're in times of peace, that's when you should really be training yourself to make sure that when times of war come that you're very well prepared, right?

1:05:01Or you think further into the long run. This is the benefit of the default mode network, by the way, because it allows us to simulate future scenarios, right? I use the term motes to describe it for mental time travel, others, and the self for the functions of the DMN. And if we can simulate it in the future and think about all these possibilities and so forth, can we also use it to our benefit as opposed to just using it in a way that detracts from our experiential well-being, right? Like, who knows? You just don't know that a tragedy that can occur could actually be beneficial in the future, right?

1:05:35And something beneficial can also be tragic. And so it's sort of maintaining this curious, process-oriented, discovery-oriented, curious approach to the world. I think that that can be quite powerful if it's integrated appropriately.

1:05:52Dr. Aldrich Chan:I actually hadn't heard that version of the parable before, so thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, that's a little closer to the actual text. I wonder, that would probably be one of the perhaps the oldest iteration of the because it appears in other traditions too is my understanding that might be one of the older ones I'm sure, I mean it's such an effective one it's gone through so many things the Huayna and Zodo is a compilation of all sorts of other texts so I wouldn't be surprised if it came from something else but that's the oldest version that I could find yeah, amazing so the fit mind exists i guess to bridge real science and traditional contemplative practices ideally kind of depth over reach and transformation over information so as someone that's doing both where do you see that bridge being most like poorly built right now and what are the well intention mistakes.

1:06:53Yeah. So I'm speaking through the perspective of a neuropsychologist. And so that's where it's going to move forward in. And the final chapter of the book is really tackling this. And actually, we're currently working on a publication that's going to formalize my approach as something that can be useful. And I'm calling it the neurodynamic approach at this point in time. So one of the things that it does is that it reframes mental health conditions that some conditions, not all, but some conditions out there, a lot of them actually, but not all, need not be understood in a shameful way. They don't need to carry the stigma that they carry.

1:07:36And so instead of feeling shame, instead of feeling there's something wrong with you, it's viewing it as you're misaligned with the principle of nature. There's nothing wrong with you. What we need to do is help you realign. So that's one, I think, very powerful perspective. You know, if we go to mismatch theory, for example, one of the common cited cases for me that I bring up is ADHD. Some people who have ADHD, they feel dumber at school or they feel insecure and they feel like there's something wrong with their thinking. Everyone, all their classmates are ahead of them. Firstly, you know, people with ADHD tend to have IQs that are relatively similar to their peers.

1:08:12It's just that their attention is poor. But the question is, is it poor? Or could we understand it differently? Because if we look back at our evolutionary history, ADHD could have been very beneficial in an unpredictable environment, right? And so if we have somebody, for example, lightning struck a tree and there's fire, is it the person that's going to be very controlled and conservative, that's going to realize that they could, you know, catch this fire onto another piece of wood and use it for cooking food? Or is it going to be the person who's stimulus bound that has problems, quote unquote, you know, regulating their impulses, that's actually going to go up to and be like, oh, look, this is pretty cool.

1:08:46Let's try this out. You know, it's probably the good HD person. Right. And so it's, it's, it's, it's kind of, I'm kind of confronting this deficit model where we're always focusing on the problems and are focusing on the potential strengths that may be involved, especially when viewed from that perspective. And, um, and so, uh, you know, these seven principles that I came up with, they're all invitations. They're all invitations for different ways of being in the world, right? And these invitations, if you align with them, if you accept the invitation, as you accepted the invitation before asking the question, right, they can really empower your capacity to survive and flourish in the world.

1:09:26And the word I like to use is potency, which is a word that's typically and frequently used throughout the Taoist literature, that, you know, you're no longer swimming against the current, but you're swimming with it, right? And so there's this potency moving forward. You're no longer, how would I put this? You're no longer crippled by uncertainty, but rather you're moving into it. You're playing with it. You're having a dance with it. You're facing a tragedy. And yeah, you'll feel emotions. Yeah, you'll feel sad. That's totally fine. Even Zhuangzi feels sad. But for how long is it necessary for you to engage in self-inflicted suffering?

1:10:03And can you accept it? And maybe something better might come along.

1:10:07Dr. Aldrich Chan:Yeah, I feel like you started to touch a little bit then on play. You talk a little bit about play and how we can bring that back into our lives. It's something I'm certainly missing. Well, hopefully I can help out in some way. I think play is a very major, major system. It's not just important for our well-being, but it's actually considered a primary emotional system in the work of Yak Pengsep. Because play, if you look at children playing, it helps them, they'll naturally form social hierarchies. It teaches them empathy, because if you're being antisocial, you're going to be left out of the group.

1:10:48There are many ways in which play leads to improved qualities. And let me ask you this, you know, the best teachers that you've had, the best professors as an adult that you've met and the most influential people, they tend to be people who are playful and can make you laugh, right? You remember the classes that the professor cracks jokes and you laugh and you enjoy it and it's stimulating, right? Play is just not just an emotional system, but an activity that we all must engage in that also brings out our true self, right? When we were playing, truly playing, were spontaneous with each other, right?

1:11:28And if you remember, you know, if you haven't played for a while, you may not remember too well, but as a child, how many timeless experiences playing with toys, right? Or playing with friends where like the time, just like, you don't know where it went, but you had such an amazing time and you were just completely yourself, right? Allowing your intuition to express itself. And intuition, not just impulse. Impulse does not take context into consideration, or as intuition does, right? And so with spontaneous play, it can benefit an individual in all those different ways.

1:12:03Dr. Aldrich Chan:I think play, now that I think about it as well, could often be, you could remove some of the learning curve into flow because if you're doing, well, it depends how difficult the challenge is, I guess. But playing, anybody can play. At least I'm thinking in the context of a toy. You don't have to be a professional toy player to play with a toy. hey you could i play cornhole with my friends sometimes and i sometimes we get it we get really into it and sometimes i get into flow states just throwing the stuff back and forth into a hole it's it's it can be in the simplest activities you know yeah absolutely i feel like yeah the simple ones are so beautiful and fun i think partly because of the the barrier's entry being a lot of that Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:12:48Dr. Aldrich Chan:So you frame each of the principles as an invitation to a way of being rather than a rule. Yeah. So if a listener could only accept one invitation this week, which would you offer them? This limitation is rough, Josh. Well, creativity invites psychological flexibility. That's what I've come up with. I think process invites attunement to the moment, a balance between immersion and perspective. Relationship invites compassion and alliance and connection with others. Wholeness invites integration and openness to perspectives. Equilibrium, I think, invites cultivation in the form of eustress. And spontaneity invites, well, playfulness and intuition.

1:13:40intuition. And then transformation invites co-creation, co-discovery, committed action. You know, and so I think all of them are very central and they're all connected. I think that people listening, I don't like to limit it, but, you know, people have different dispositions and whatever calls out to you most, I think it would be, you know, beneficial for you to check out. And I also wrote the book in the form of a national park so that, you know, there's main entrance and the main entrance is sort of reading the author's notes and you know understanding what Taoism is and what it isn't and then after the sort of sad theory which if you've heard this podcast you probably don't need to read it anyways you can just jump around to

1:14:22Dr. Aldrich Chan:whatever chapter calls out to you and for anyone that does want to go deeper on the book or to find more about you your podcasts your practice and where where should they find you yeah so my most popular account is instagram right now um and it's at dr alder chan um and actually it's the same for um for facebook and my website my website and my youtube also and then my website is dr chancnc.com amazing and what about the the book is that's available everywhere well right hello yeah you can just look it up online or you know it's sold in amazon but if you don't want to support Bezos. There are alternate ways that you can buy to search it online and I'm sure you'll find it.

1:15:10And keep an eye out. The paper that we're working on now to formalize the approach is coming soon. And so that's also going to share more about how this can be more formally applied with more practical tips.

1:15:22Dr. Aldrich Chan:I think it's a really important book. I thoroughly enjoyed reading and yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us, Aldrich. Thank you so much for having me, Josh. It was a great pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. If you enjoyed it, please, if you could give us a like, a subscribe and hit the notification bell, that would really help us out. Or just share this episode with a friend, share the course with a friend. Anything would go such a long way. Thank you so much and I hope to see you soon.

1:16:01so