493: Media Buying Is Like Dating with Phoenix Ha of Ad Beacon

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3:06Hey Founder fam, welcome back to another episode of the Founder Podcast. Today we're sitting down with Phoenix Ha. She's the CEO of a company called AdBeacon. They're a leading data company which allows advertisers to stop burning ad spend and start scaling faster in a post-iOS 14 environment. And she's going to go behind the scenes of what's actually working across industries from the data that she's seen to support it when it comes to paid advertising. So today's a masterclass on everything ad creative, social advertising, and really how to succeed post-iOS 14. Please welcome to the founder podcast, Phoenix Ha.

3:49So the first question that I ask everyone that comes on, sticking true to FounderForm is, how did you get your job, aka how did you find yourself doing the work you're doing today? Tell us about yourself, how you started AdBeacon and everything else in between. Yeah, great question and also honored to be here. So thanks for having me and I hope whatever insights come help people. Actually, really funny story. I come from a modeling background. I was a model first since the age of seven. And I got to learn all about marketing from the back end of, you know, just on the runway all the way to the back of manufacturing and supply chain, fascinated by it.

4:25But as I grew up and learned about marketing, I had no interest in it. I literally had no idea that I would be in marketing today. But as a true metamorphosis or a butterfly, like that's just where I landed. And it just seems to make sense. It clicked. So fast forward after working with really great brands during the creative agency boom, like Nike and Disney and Modelo and all these really great collaborations, I actually landed in-house with brand at Supra Footwear. So became interim marketing director there at 23. Had no clue what I was doing, but learned and got gritty and scrappy with it.

5:04I worked with K-Swiss a little bit and then kind of decided, you know what, hail Mary, I'm going to leave everything and I'm going to go into small business because why make a great cushy salary when I could go into small business? And when I did that, I learned a lot, a lot of really incredible stories with how hard it is to make money with such a small budget. And through that, I think kind of trickled into where we are today. So I saw an ad for paid social, had no idea what paid social was. I thought people were paying us to be social and fell in love with it because it was finally something that I could do where I took the creative side in terms of experiential marketing and global marketing, all the way down to metric based marketing, right?

5:46And have quantitative data to pair with qualitative. So in that very short amount of time, I became the director of paid media at a agency in California. And through that, just dug and dug and dug, started speaking at events on iOS 14.5, which was the biggest problem and still is a big problem. And while I was learning about that, I learned about first-party data. And in the space, I was like, wow, there's a lot of cool solutions here, but none of it is built for my team. And this is not what I need. So again, another Hail Mary, we made one and we created a solution. So that is where I am today.

6:22I'm the CEO of AdBeacon, a first-party data and optimization platform here for media buyers and brand owners to scale and feel comfortable post iOS. So that's where I'm at now. Awesome. And you're also an instructor of our Facebook Ads 2.0 course with Jordan Maynard and Nick Schack. We updated that course and it is incredible. If anybody watching, anybody listening, make sure you check that out because it is amazing. So let's talk about ads. You know, it's 2023. What's happening right now? Like where is the landscape at from your perspective when it comes to winning in the ad game, especially probably Facebook ads, like for e-commerce founders, that's a big driver, right?

7:06Facebook ads. Yeah. So for Facebook ads, I'm seeing deep discounting right now in like all the holidays that are leaning up to the FCM and the things that we're seeing in general years past were very subtle. And now what I'm seeing is very deep discounting. So 40 to 70 % off. It's basically saying to everybody, we are going to go hard this year. And last year wasn't as hard. Last year was like 25 to 30 % off site wide, which to a lot of people was not that deep, right? They were expecting more. So what that tells me is that we absolutely need to build our lists. We absolutely need to drive qualified traffic earlier than ever and make sure that we hold those lists in for LTV throughout the year.

7:53Yeah. Okay. So I'm curious, you said that the landscape is becoming more competitive than ever. How do people get ahead? Like how do people win from your perspective from when it comes to media buying? I allude to a couple of these things in our founder course, which I have a deep heart there. But there are a lot of tactics in order to do that. And the main, main ethos behind it, or I would say pillar is how do you get people to your website now when ad costs are at the very low in comparison to that of peak? We know that peak is going to be very expensive, right? That's the height of when people are buying media.

8:32So how do you drive people to your store as much as possible, as frequently as possible for as cheap as possible? And then the next is going to be how do we create a qualified group of people coming there? So that's key. And how you can do that is a variation of ways. I would say, you know, are you a type of storefront where you can do Instagram lives, where you constantly bring people to your, let's just say your Instagram account, Facebook account, and you can retarget down the line. How do you build a community now? How do you bring people to the stores? I've done weekly deals in the past. I've done something called Holly deals in the past where you just drop new, I would say drops of t-shirts and shoes to get people excited.

9:13But again, that number one pillar is excite the customer. And then the last part right there to get ahead is keep them loyal and have brand equity and buy-in. So how are you going to do that? You can get very creative with. Yeah. And so do you think that people should like, while, while it hasn't got to Black Friday, Cyber Monday yet, and traffic is cheaper, they should be building their list, like running lead ads or just training the pixel just like, you know, because, you know, post iOS 14, you know, tracking isn't as powerful as it used to be. Like talk us through that. And let's, I'd love to hear out more on ad, like tracking and ad beacon as well.

9:53Yeah, absolutely. So building lists is essential. And that's why my heartbeat is towards and is first party data, because that's data that you own, right, which is why we have AdBeacon. And while you're building that traffic to your site, we're storing that data, and that's purchase data. So I wouldn't necessarily say building just lists for email, while that is very powerful, very, very powerful. I want purchase data, and I want purchase history and who those people are to be able to, I would say, efficiently target them for upsell opportunities down the road and also during Black Friday, Cyber Monday.

10:28And how you do that is so important. So like I said, we've done giveaways is a big one, but then you can have it gamified where you say, if you buy these items, you get more points towards the giveaway. You incentivize people to come and of course, make the deal good enough. And customization is key. Something that we did in the past that was very successful is we did collaboration with a local artist and we had a denim jacket. And in that denim jacket, you know, if you bought things from the site, you had X amount of input, or I would say, points towards that jacket, right? And you got a customized jacket from her, from this designer, if you want.

11:10And in so we built up that list. And again, they still bought and it could be a small item, whatever it may be. But again, you're building it to your point. Yep, got you.

11:48every$1 they spend, which is an insanely good return on investment. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50 % off your first three months with the code founder50. Just head to omnisend.com forward slash founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. And then what about the tracking side, right? Like it's a whole new world now. You talk about first party data. What should e-com founders be thinking about when it comes to like their stack? Because there are a lot of tools, right? There are a lot of tools nowadays that, you know, make pretty big claims around helping you post iOS 14.

12:31I'd love to hear your take and view of the world. Obviously, you know, your bias creating AdBeacon, but yeah, talk us through that. Yeah. I mean, I built a platform made for media buyers specifically, right? Everything from UI to UX is for media buyers so they can navigate it. That's just one layer of it. There's something to be very weary of with all these different platforms that you're speaking to. One is some claim to be first party data and some claim to be a full stack platform. It's kind of the minutiae of the conversation and you have to be careful. First party is key, right? Because that's your data and we track from start to finish.

13:05First click to last click. We have a full customer journey, which is aka proof behind your efforts, behind your ad dollars. Some, I would say, platforms claim to be full stack. And you have to really deep dive and understand, are we just pulling existing data from these platforms and putting it all under one place for just a roll-up? Or do we have a separate set of data that we're tracking to, I would say, compare to, let's just say, Facebook, to really understand the difference in which it's reporting versus what we're reporting, we're being ad beacon in this case, and then to really track it down to the customer journey.

13:41Why it's so essential for BFCM, which is now apparently coined the Cyber 5, is it's because now I understand the efficiency of each channel, omni-channel. What if I understood that maybe Facebook was best top of funnel or first click, and I understand that Google is best last click? You would know how to tap into those channels more efficiently and effectively. You can also create lists that segment that as well and then send it back to Facebook and or Google via OCT offline conversion tracking. There's so many benefits you have to having your own data. And as data privacy increases and regulation increases, it's only going to get harder.

14:19So the sooner you start storing this data, the sooner you start being on a platform like AdBeacon, you're going to be in a much more stable position year round, especially during Black Friday, Cyber Monday. Yeah. Okay. And then when it comes to, I guess, media buying in general, more than ever, it's about creative, right? I'd love to hear, like everyone wants to know, like everyone wants to know, like, is there a formula? What is your formula? What makes a memorable ad? How can people get ahead? Because creative is so key these days. That's such a good question. And, you know, we talk about qualitative versus quantitative, and this is where things kind to get a little blended and fun.

14:58I would say, number one, you have to think of it like this. I always relate media buying to dating, right? When you're meeting all these people, and I'm going to say men in my case, I meet all these men, there's a lot of noise. And until I meet the one person that makes everything quiet and silent and makes me focused, will that person get my attention? And it's the same thing with an ad. If that ad doesn't bring a little bit of quiet to the noise and get someone's attention, you're already losing. And you have to have a gut check with yourself, right? This is the qualitative, where you look at it and go, would I even buy from this ad?

15:34Is this something I would even care about? Because often we get into this machine of constantly creating ads because we know in our hearts we have to make more ads, but we don't like the ads. And if you don't like the ads, I guarantee you most people won't. So is there a formula? Sure, there's a framework of what we've seen really great ads become. But I think the best framework is the one that you create of what would make you put dollars behind the concept. And not to go too, too far on a tangent, but I had a really great analysis this morning of competitors just in my free time. And I look at just CTA, just go to the headline and look at the headlines and go to your competitors and see those headlines and say, do you like their headlines better?

16:19And would they make you move? And what I mean by move is there's some headlines that are very, I would say, inspirational, right? Better data for a better tomorrow. Or you can have one that says 20 % increase guaranteed or your money back, right? Which one would you move on? And that's the gut check you need to have. And then as you test, there is the quantitative. So that would be my answer during this time is find the quiet. Yep. Got you. And what have you found from your experiences working when it comes to creative, more native, more high production value? How long should videos be? I'd love to hear.

16:57Yeah. So things are changing, right? And I have a hypothesis as of right now that static is coming back heavier than ever. And the reason why is because of the rise of TikTok. So it's a highly saturated video market right now. Pre-COVID, I would say you would go in and you would see video ads and high production, and that was what was hitting for a very long time in Facebook. Then it phased into UGC, which is user-generated content. And I always say about 15 to 30 seconds max, nothing over 30 seconds, a minute max max, right? And then there's always exceptions to the rule, but that's pretty heavy because short attention spans.

17:36But since TikTok has taken over, UGC is highly saturated as well. So the consumers are getting very smart. They understand when something is an ad pretty quickly. So if you're able to navigate it, I've seen a lot of success in creating native ads that you don't even realize are ads. And it takes you to a very uncomfortable place. So a great example is on my TikTok. I did, it wasn't even meant to be an ad, but it woke me up. I came out of the pool. I walked over to my fridge. I put my phone on record and I grabbed an alcoholic popsicle from my fridge that I got from Target. And I literally came up to the screen.

18:21I was like, I got this popsicle. It says 6 % alcohol. It's buttery smooth. Like if you ever say I spend too much money at Target, you're wrong. Closed it. Sold out at all the targets in California. And we used a very similar framework for a company called the Coconut Cult. Not my client, just as a heads up. I really just genuinely loved the product. I tried it. I barely talked about the product, maybe a couple hints here and there. I think as media buyers, we constantly say we need a CTA. We need to set every value prop under the sun, but that's actually not the framework now. So what I would say is two, three things, make it natural, talk to your best friend, close it abruptly and see what happens.

19:05And again, that was an example that completely sold out online and in store and they had to get two more facilities to fulfill. It's a powerful thing, but just a different framework. Yeah. Interesting. And I guess when it comes to like the ad game, right, you get fatigue over time. So when you said about like always creating more and you've got this mindset, you always have to create more. When you're working with a brand, what amount of creative do you aim for? How many angles, how many hooks, variations? I know we're getting quite technical, but this is really helpful for people because it can be quite intimidating too.

19:43There's a couple of different tactics I like to go after, but I'll give you the simplistic one and I'll give you a little bit more complex one. So there's two to weigh out. One is I always like to just go after six ads within an ad set, right? And you have copy version one, copy version two, and you have one type of ad and you always have to have a control, right? So if one thing's going to change, the other cannot. And what I mean by that is if it's the same image, you can change the headline, but not the copy, right? You have to keep things consistent for that A-B testing. I like six at a time within an ad set if you're spending less than$200 a day in that ad set.

20:17that's my preference, right? Now let's, I would say I would, now that's six ads per ad set. I usually use the same six. If it's going to be evergreen, it's the same six. If it's specific to a, let's just say a product, again, another six. So let's just say there's three products, three, you know, you can do the math. That's what it would be. I never go over six really, just because things get very complex, but the ad fatigue aspect. So I look at metrics just to see over a three and seven day period of time. I don't like it to go over seven days. And if the metrics speak to a decay in data or a decay in performance, that's when you start to A-B test the new creative versus the old.

21:00Sometimes the new creative will kick in a resurgence of the old and sometimes the new creative will kick out the old completely and you have to respond to it data-wise. The second side on the more complex is going to be every audience gets its own ad. So if you're saying that you're only going to speak to cowboys, maybe your ads need to be towards cowboys, right? And if it's broad, it's going to be more broad. And again, six, but that variation really depends on your methodology and your tactics towards that. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying this episode and learning a ton. As you know, in this series, we interview some of the greatest founders of our generation to find out how they did it.

21:41However, if you're thinking of starting your own business and you want to hear from some incredible stories from everyday people like you or I who are actually in the trenches, only been building their business for maybe one year or two years, like they're building right now and they're really in the early stages, but they're getting success. You should come and check out our new podcast from zero to founder hosted by our community manager, Molly Flynn. These are in the trenches stories from our very own successful students that have gone through some of our programs. People just like you who are deep within the process of building their very own successful business.

22:20These are the founders of tomorrow. You can find the From Zero to Founder podcast on all platforms. And remember, it's founder without the E. All right, now let's jump in the show. But when people are starting out or in the early days of media buying, running ads, when it comes to creative on the phone, like still works, right? Like, you know, you don't need to have like a studio like we have or anything like that, right? No. No. I, my best performing ads, I had an erectile dysfunction ad. I hint, I think actually we popped it up in our founder course. the company was spending so much money. If you work in telehealth, it's big spending, right?

23:07And we had the budget for high production ads and we had done them, but they flopped. And they were great ads, Nathan. I would look at them and laugh and think that they were the most fantastic ads, but it was the one of me squeezing toothpaste out of a tube that just drove incredible conversions. and our cost per acquisition was so low in comparison to this highly produced ad. So absolutely, you can do things with your iPhone or Android, whichever you choose and have fun with it. Test it. Yeah. Any other advice you'd give to founders when it comes to creative and winning on the platform? Yeah.

23:44Think outside the box. Lukewarm doesn't get you anywhere. Be shocking, obviously, within your core values and obviously something that's palatable, but nobody moves the needle by not thinking outside the box. And it's the ads that make me smile that are the best that I know are going to convert in my gut as a media buyer. And sometimes they're from smaller companies that are just trying to claw their way up for some ad space, but they're doing it and they're cutting through the noise. So my very broad stroke at this question is think differently. A great example, I'll say this right now, is crypto.com did a Super Bowl ad.

24:24And in the US, Super Bowl ads cost so much money, upwards of however many millions. And are you familiar with this ad? No, no. Okay, good. I'm teaching Nathan now. So it's this QR code that was just bouncing from the corners of the screen. That's all it was. it was genius it was so easy but it was outside the box and it cut through the noise of all the feel-good ads and all the ads of these big companies like budweiser crypto.com was the only one that was being tweeted about and talked about so some perspective what about hooks is that the most like that's the key thing right or key absolutely key you have five seconds to get someone's attention.

25:13And so for example, that coconut cult ad, you know, that video of the coconut yogurt, I believe that the hook was what drove people to stay. And all it was was, so apparently I can only have two scoops of this and that's it. What yogurt do you have that you're only allowed to have two scoops? Never. So people are like, what is this? So think of the hooks definitely outside the box and kind of jarring. Don't go the route of, well, everyone's asking me about my skincare routine. That's a saturated hook. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about AI, tools, hacks. What can you share with us that you're seeing working, particularly in a, I guess, a creative paid media perspective, like any, anything you can share mid journey using mid journey to create ad, create like, yeah, talk us through like what, what's working, what things, what things you could share with the founder community.

26:11Yeah. I really like pencil.ai. Um, you know, I won't lie to you. I know the people there too, but again, I support good thing. It's like great products and great platforms. Pencil.ai is great. And, um, mid journey is fantastic as well, but again, the human touch always wins. So even the AI, uh, platforms, and I can't think of the name, the ones that have like almost a human generated image where they're speaking to you, like I'm seeing those ads on TikTok. I know they're not getting engagement. It's not working. So I think it's still a handshake between human and AI as of right now. You can't rely solely on AI.