504: The State of Email Marketing in 2024 | Email Expert Chase Dimond

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2:43Now let's jump in. It's like the more data that you can collect, the more you talk to your users, the better off the experience is going to be. And hopefully you're going to minimize people that end up snoozing and kind of churning off your emails.

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3:43All right. So Chase, this isn't the first interview we've done. We've done many with you. You've taught an incredible email marketing, e-commerce course on our platform. You are the absolute go-to when it comes to email marketing, especially when it comes to e-commerce. You've helped all of our students in our community and platforms so much. So when it comes to email marketing, you're the guy. So the first question that I ask everyone that comes on is, how did you get your job, aka how'd you find yourself doing the work you're doing today? Yeah, Nathan, pumped to be here and can't wait to get started.

4:15So for myself, so in college, I had so many jobs and internships where I was exposed to sales and marketing. So I was just a hustler in college. I was doing all these different jobs, internships, just trying to figure out what the heck I wanted to do. And after kind of taking some time to reflect on, you know, A, what I was good at and B, like what things or thing was working while at work, I landed on email marketing. And I really haven't looked back ever since. So I really started my career doing email marketing for SaaS, for newsletter businesses, for info. and I ultimately found e-commerce in 2017 and I've been almost exclusively focused on e-com email marketing ever since.

4:53So I just was kind of busy working, found all these different types of marketing disciplines and just fell in love with email because the way that you can communicate to so many people but in a way that feels very personal if you do it right. So if you do email well, you could communicate with 100 ,000 people in a way that feels like the email is almost crafted for them or for a few people versus it being like this crazy thing like social media. You put a post out there, you see all the engagements, you know, it's not just for you. It's a little bit less personal. So that's what I really found, you know, and fell in love with in terms of email marketing.

5:28Yeah. And look, when it comes to email and if you run an e-commerce business, you have to get your email marketing right because you could double your revenue just from without it right you could triple your revenue you can do all sorts of crazy stuff so um you've taught a course on our platform and you're really like the go-to guy when it comes to e-commerce especially for email marketing so i'm curious i remember last we checked you you generated over is it 500 million now in email attributable is 400 i can't remember the number exactly right we kind of stopped keeping count it's hundreds of millions of dollars we're sending billions of emails every year for our clients.

6:07We specialize with working with seven to nine figure brands. And to your point, email typically accounts for anywhere from like a quarter to upwards of like a half of their revenue. Email alone, that's not including SMS or anything else. So email still today in 2023 and beyond is insanely powerful. So I hope everyone really takes notes because I've got a lot of cool stuff planned for today. Awesome. So, well, let's kick off like when it comes to if you're advising a you know an earlier stage brand how would you recommend they get into email like let's just then i know you know what to share like let's just go yeah absolutely so one thing i want to preface is email is only as good as the traffic and the leads that you have coming in you know there'll be times where people reach out and like hey can you do our email marketing it's like well do you have a list do you have traffic and they're like no so i want to preface that email is only going to convert well if you have good traffic and you have leads coming through.

7:02If you do that, you're in a great spot. So once you've started driving traffic, and traffic could mean paid ads, you know, on Facebook and Instagram, it could be paid search on Google, it could be affiliate marketing, it could be influencer marketing, it could be SEO, there's so many ways to drive traffic. And that's not what we're here to talk about today. But if you find one or more of those channels, I would then focus on the following. So number one, we have to turn those traffic into leads. So we do that through an email pop up, right? A form on your website that typically pops up in the center or the full screen that asks for your email in e-commerce it's typically accompanied with an offer 10 off free shipping uh ten dollars off entry into a giveaway into a sweepstake so we need some kind of mechanism to collect emails and you want to optimize and test the offer and test the timing do you show it right away you show it after someone scrolled a percentage of the page you show it on accident test the different types of behaviors as well as the offers.

7:59That's number one. From there, you want to build out automated emails. So if someone enters their email into your form, into your pop-up, we then want to send them what's called a welcome series for non-buyers. Now this is three, four, five, six emails that's really focused on building trust and affinity with the subscriber and your brand, getting them used to kind of receiving emails from you, delivering whatever that value proposition you promised that offer, that discount, that free shipping, that content, and really just building trust through social proof, through UGC, through reviews, through any kind of press mentions, and highlighting kind of your best products that they should probably start with.

8:37These are our best sellers. These are what people say about them. So building out the core flow. So we just talked about the welcome series. It's also building out what's called the abandonment flows. So it's a site abandonment email, a browse abandonment email, an abandoned cart, abandoned checkout. these are different emails that are triggered based off some kind of behavior that happens so if someone's on your list they add something to cart but they don't start checkout or they don't make a purchase we'll want to send them an abandoned cart so each of the ones i mentioned the site abandonment the browse abandonment the abandoned cart and the abandoned checkout those are all kind of different levels and have different filters that are triggering those emails and all the email platforms you use this should be fairly simple to set up so that part shouldn't be too hard and then the last thing on that one before i talk about a few others is post-purchase once someone buys from you you really want to kind of confirm and reaffirm that they made the right decision that they made the right purchase so sending customer thank you emails sending a review request to get feedback and kind of reviews on your product sending cross sales and upsells you know what they purchased so you know what they like make recommendations that are going to be complimentary for them and beneficial for them and win back emails.

9:47So it's really important. You drive the traffic, you turn the traffic into an email, you automate these sequences, these automations of emails that are really high intent. And then from there, we also want to send ongoing weekly campaigns that could be things like product launches, flash sales, holiday emails, new blog content, different types of social proof, any kind of current events. and then from there along with the campaigns we're going to leverage what's called segmentation and is this making sense so far am i going yeah it's awesome this is awesome keep going man okay okay cool so along with the campaigns right we have to pick a segment or a list to send to so we want to pick things like folks that are engaged a 90-day engage so someone that's opened and or clicked in the last 90 days um other types of segmentation might be geography based so i'm in the united states i'm on the west side of it i'm in california the weather here is 75 degrees or higher and sunny year round.

10:43So, you know, in the winter here, you could still probably send me an email with a t-shirt or flip-flops and shorts as an apparel company, and I would buy. Whereas that same time of year in the winter for someone on the East Coast, let's say like in New York, you'll want to send them things like jackets, pants, beanies, you know, socks, those types of things. So leveraging geography, even leveraging things like gender. So if you're an apparel company, you sell things for men versus women you know send the items for men to men and send the items for women to women and there's all types of things that you can do which we'll kind of talk about a little bit later around like ai and predictive analytics to understand someone's gender based off of kind of census data so someone's first name is this what's the likelihood that that's male versus female are you not sure so there's some really cool stuff that you guys can do based off names and other kind of data that's available to understand someone's potential gender along with the cues and the signals that you have on your site what what gender is the product being looked at from this person here versus that person what are people adding to cart what are people kind of constantly doing and looking at so there's all these cues that you can use to leverage segmentation based off what people are doing on their site what they've purchased and whatnot and with all of the above you have to be a b testing you want to optimize you know the traffic and the leads and the emails and the offers and everything you're doing.

12:08So that way you're driving the maximum impact possible. And with all of that, probably the least sexy, most important thing about emails, email deliverability, really making sure that you're being mindful of your email delivery. If you do those five or six things that I mentioned, you're going to be light years ahead of everyone else. Yeah, I love it, man. So there's a few things to unpack there. So you talk about, first of all, pop-ups and having some sort of offer like free shipping, you know 10 20 30 percent off some sort of coupon code is that the fastest way to build your list are there any other ways that you've found or any tactics that you would highly recommend that are cost effective yeah i'd say like for where our clients are right now you know driving paid traffic to a website a landing page whatever it might be and then capitalizing with the pop-up typically is the you know the highest converting kind of best thing that being said there's a host of other things that you guys can do everything from running like kind of partnered giveaways so say you're a brand that sells to men that are 18 to 35 go find three or four other brands that sell to that same demo that don't have competitive products their products are complementary not competitive and if you guys all kind of partner in promoting to your list promoting on social maybe running some ad spend you can end up with a larger list that being said you really want to do a couple things right to make sure that you end up with people that actually want to buy your stuff far too often i'll see like people do a giveaway and they'll give away a car or an iphone but that they sell a t-shirt right just because someone's getting your iphone or your car doesn't mean they want your t-shirt so when you do giveaways give away the thing that you sell make sure that people actually want what you're giving away i think that's one you know i think two is you know making sure that you've optimized your checkout process so that way when people add their email they're being added to your database you kind of can follow up with them there so i think like uh paid traffic giveaways you know optimizing the on-site collection is one there's also stuff out there that's i'd say in the u.s is kind of in the white and then elsewhere elsewhere you can't really do it it's kind of a gray or black so i wouldn't touch it but there are sites out there that can basically cookie your your website and based off ip address they can tell you people's emails it's kind of like this whole interesting strategy where it's kind of almost like retargeting right just having like a pixel on your side that you can retarget it's the same thing but it can actually provide email so there's a whole host of different strategies depending on where you're based and kind of how you feel about these types of marketing tactics yeah okay interesting um so let's talk about kind of you talked about segmentation what do you do with people that aren't engaged and how do you keep them engaged and how often should you mail your list yeah that's a great question so in terms of like the frequency the frequency really depends so as i mentioned um you know our clients do a minimum of a million dollars a year upwards to hundreds of millions of dollars a year um and at those sizes we're typically sending two to four or maybe three to five campaigns per week per client some brands more some brands less so if you have a smaller list and you have fewer skews you probably want to send maybe weekly or maybe twice a week so depending on list size the season right during black friday seven monday coming up obviously everyone's gonna be way more aggressive than normal so your frequency during that period of time might be daily whereas throughout the rest of the year it might be once twice three times a week you know the more skews you have the more skews and products you're adding the more often that you can send the more often that you're kind of testing offers and having different creative so most of our clients seven to nine figures send two to four three to five times a week but if you're a smaller store kind of just starting out i would start with once a week make it really manageable and then as your list scales as you have other things going on look at doing twice a week and then kind of gradually scale up by looking at the data and saying are my people enjoying these emails and then also having this thing called a preference page so what most people do is they have send emails and then they have an unsubscribe they don't have the ability for people to manage preference and that helps you basically keep people on your list to help them kind of set the frequency that they want to receive so they might only want to receive sales emails so if you're only sending sales email on a monthly basis they might only receive a monthly email however maybe they don't want to receive sales and they only want to receive education so allowing people to kind of self-select that's really important one other thing that's really interesting that we've done is this concept of what's called a snooze button it's similar to a preference page but the very bottom of the email almost towards the footer ahead of the unsubscribe it says um you know snooze your emails for a period of time two weeks or a month so people can temporarily opt out of your emails for two or four weeks whatever reason it might be maybe they're traveling maybe they're they're in their busy season so by allowing people to either manage preferences or pause emails for a small period of time we've seen that save a lot of unsubs so that's that's a big one and then what was the other part of the question you asked about frequency and then and then i guess um you know not just frequency but keeping your list engaged yes yeah so i think like with finding the right frequency and sending the right content mix so there's there's frequency and then there's variety right and those two go really hand in frequency is how often do you send and that's kind of what we talked about and then variety is well when you do send what are you sending are you sending sales emails all the time if so you're gonna have a lot of people opt out unless you're known for being a discount brand and people are signing up for daily deals or ongoing deals if you're just pushing shells down people's face people are gonna unsub so you really want to find that balance between education entertainment content and sales right i think people have different goals when they sign to a brand if you think about the company called chubbies right the ones that makes like those swim trunks and those board shorts at least in the u.s they're really big a lot of people found those emails was really funny and really humorous and really just enjoyed them.

18:04And they had a really unique voice. So also too depends on like, what's your tone and what's your voice. So I think there's like all these factors that come into play. Like, are you funny? Do you have a big list? Do you have a lot of different types of things to say? That really helps you get away with sending more emails. And if you kind of get into this part where like, you're not really sure why things are happening, people are unsubscribing, there's not a lot of engagement. The easiest, quickest way that a lot of people forget is just ask right ask people on your list like what do you want to see you know how do you feel about what we've been sending and even within the email you could have like something at the bottom that gives it says like click one of these things one star two store three store five star and let us know how we're doing so you're going to create this constant feedback loop i think a lot of times people are missing those feedback loops and the ability for people to self-select and kind of choose their preferences with those you can get away sending more emails and sending the right type of content, plus the segmentation we talked about, right?

18:58Like all of these things work together. There's no silver bullet. It's like the more data that you can collect, the more you talk to your users, the better off the experience is going to be. And hopefully you're going to minimize people that end up snoozing and kind of churning off your emails. Yeah. Are you hesitating to take the next step in your e-commerce journey? Founder Plus has you covered. With proven frameworks tailored to your business needs for fast results, a supportive community of over 30 ,000 like-minded entrepreneurs and weekly live mentorship sessions, Founder Plus is your key to success.

19:30Try Founder Plus today for just$1 for seven days and start building your dream business with confidence. You can visit founder.com forward slash start dollar trial or click the link in the description to claim your trial. So I'm also curious when it comes to how many email subscribers you have on average, how much should revenue have you seen? Like, and this is a very difficult question to answer because I know you talk about lead quality and where, you know, the engagement and all that kind of stuff. But what range, like if you have 2000 people on your email list, what kind of, you know, revenue could you expect?

20:06Is it a dollar per email? Is it $5? Like what's the range that you've seen? Yeah, that's a great question. It's really hard to say because when we work with all of our clients, the AOV, right, the average order value, the price that people are paying when they order varies we work with clients like the brand poopery that makes the spray for the bathroom that might sell like a five or ten dollar spray and we also work with a company called eight sleep that sells a three or five thousand dollar mattress right so it's really hard just because of um one like frequency right the more frequent you send you're probably driving less revenue per user um also too like the more expensive the product is you know the more technically that you'll make per user if it's a good email um so average order value lifetime value all these things like frequency of purchase is really hard the easier thing to share is kind of what i what i led with earlier was like about a quarter to you know upwards of a half of your revenue should come from email and or sms right those to kind of combine so i i think like you know if a brand has 2 000 people on their list you know maybe they're converting, you know, X percent or half a percent.

21:15And also too, like, it depends on if you're looking at campaigns versus flows, right? The revenue from campaigns is going to be a lot lower than the revenue from flows. For example, like your abandoned checkout, that's when people are furthest down the funnel. They've gone through the entire step of almost buying and then they just left. Maybe they got distracted. Maybe you didn't have free shipping. Maybe they're waiting to see if you're going to send an offer. Like the revenue per user there and the conversion rate there is going to be the highest like you might convert five or ten percent of the people that receive the email and then the revenue per recipient might be dollars or multiple dollars or you know tens of dollars whereas in a campaign that's more of like a batch and blast it's like a product launch um so it is a really hard thing to say just because there's so many different variables but 2 000 emails depending on your frequency depending on the quality i don't know you might be able to make hundreds of dollars, potentially to thousands of dollars on a given send, depending on how expensive it is and what you're selling and kind of how engaged they are.

22:16Like what's the open rate? What's the click-through rate? So all of these things kind of factor in. Yeah. Got you. Awesome. So let's move to AI. What AI tools are you using right now in your business? There's kind of four that I primarily use. I think the biggest one, right? The most popular one would be ChatGPT. I use that the most frequently another one i'm using is something called too short.ai and basically what it does and by the way i have no ownership i've got no vested interest in any of these but basically what it does is you could take your youtube videos and you can upload them and they'll kind of slice and dice them almost like a video editor they'll say like hey these 30 seconds these 45 seconds this minute look interesting so it's helping me take long form content and turning them into short form.

22:59So taking long form YouTube podcasts and turning them into Instagram reels or TikTok videos or YouTube shorts. So that one's called Too Short AI. There's a bunch of those out there. For the agency, for like calls and whatnot, we're either using one called Fireflies or Avoma. And those essentially are taking call notes and transcribing kind of the dialogue of team calls and client calls. And they also have things like sentiment, like who did all the talking was the sentiment positive was it negative um and helps you also set reminders so we're instead of having our account manager that was responsible for writing and typing all the notes before and how to be super present on kind of writing things down and not present in the conversation it kind of gives them the time back and the ai is not going to be tired or miss anything right so the whole thing gets recorded with ai and then the last one would be something like a mid journey to create like images and whatnot that are kind of cool and unique so those are like the four that I frequently use most often.

23:56Yep. And when it comes to e-commerce businesses, I guess, you know, what do you see as the biggest challenge to implement AI? Yeah. So I'm going to answer this one about my own business and then I'll kind of answer any questions about kind of e-commerce and I think where email's at and where it's going. I think the biggest challenge for my own agency, which is a marketing agency, I think is a couple things. I think one is like headcount, two is current process, and three is buy-in. So we have over 100 team members right now with varying level of experience. So some people are using in their spare time, and they've got a really good grasp and understanding, while other people have never used it.

24:35They've heard of it, but they've never used it. So with that, it's just been really time-consuming and expensive to have like the training and resource allocation with everything else we've got going on. So I think at the agency, it's something that we're going to adopt. It's just a matter of time. And I think the other thing that we've kind of been going back and forth on is like the optics with clients around us using AI. So like we're a premium agency, we charge very expensive fees, and everything historically has been done by hand. So I think there's kind of some fear from some of the partners and kind of some of our leadership on how clients would feel if we were using AI for some or all of the work.

25:09That said, personally, for me and all my other businesses, whether it's like my personal brand, or some of the businesses that I own that I have one employee three employees five employees we're using ai pretty religiously because it's way easier for me to train them and teach them and kind of change the process for one or three or five people than it is for us to go change the process for 100 plus people in different parts of the world with different jobs with different seniority with different experience so i think like the big challenge is just around like process and training and kind of just having everyone have like a level playing field, if that makes sense.

25:45Yeah. And when you said about like some of your other businesses that might not have like as big a head count, how are you using it? What does that look like? Yeah, it's interesting. So I think it's kind of like a double-edged sword in some regard where I think a lot of the reason I'm not hiring more people at these smaller businesses is because we're using AI. With the agency, when AI kind of has come around, we already were so big. And I don't want to say bloated in a bad way, but we had so many people that like, had we not been that big, AI probably would have been rolled out and we probably would have been able to do more with less and therefore probably not hire nearly as many people.

26:18So in terms of like the current people right now on my team, a lot of it is around like content creation. So taking like long form emails or blog content that we've wrote and then repurposing that for short form tweets or for Twitter threads or for LinkedIn carousels. So a lot of like how we're using other businesses is really around like content creation, content editing, proofreading, ideation, formatting. So I'm taking a lot of like content I had and it's been like, these are all the ballpoints. These are all the things that I think about email. Here are five types of emails. Turn this into a table or, you know, kind of just some of the formatting and some of the ideas or, hey, will you kind of quickly fact check this?

26:56Will you read this? Will you give me some thoughts? Or, hey, I wrote this version. Write me three other subject lines for it. So a lot of like how I'm using on the personal brand other brands is like here's my ideas here's my thoughts give me your feedback you know give me kind of some twists on it give me some things around it other things to have used it for is like big data sets it's like here's like the analytics of all my posts show me and tell me like where the trends are when i talk about what topic what are people resonating with so for a long time a lot of my content specifically was e-commerce email marketing and then through ai i've learned that my posts are less specifically to e-commerce email marketing and just generally my marketing, they get a lot more engagement reach because it reaches a broader audience.

27:37So a lot of like my pivot on like my personal brand, my other brands in terms of like content and kind of ideation has just been by leveraging data that like I otherwise couldn't understand because it's just too big. There's just too much. I don't have a data analysis background personally. I don't have a data scientist on my team. So that's how we're using it a lot in terms of like being a few people creating content across dozens of channels every single day. Yeah, interesting. So I have to know when it comes to AI and email marketing, just even in general, not even just e-commerce, but would love to hear like, how can people best use AI to automate things?

28:21Like give us like some really good hacks, man. What kind of tactics or something that someone can take away where it's just like, boom, that's crazy. Yeah, I think it's a couple of things. So in terms of like today, I think like predictive analytics is a really interesting kind of predictive analysis is a really interesting one. So, you know, what is that? Essentially, it's AI, machine learning and data science. And it's leveraging it to make predictions based on the past to help influence the future. So here's a couple examples. So with predictive analytics, you can analyze past behaviors and try to understand what each individual person on your list is most likely to engage with with your emails.

28:57so allow you to pick the right content for the right segments like with a lot more degree of certainty right right now with marketers a lot of times we're kind of guessing and we're hoping for the best like with predictive analytics it's basically going to say these 5 000 people that have engaged over the last 30 days they engage the most with the content on current events and these 5 000 people over here they only engage with emails that mentioned offers and these 5 000 people over here they only wanted to read the blog post so just like i mentioned before around like asking people for their kind of preferences a lot of people just frankly aren't going to tell you their preference they're just not going to click fail to form and do his preferences so when you use predictive analytics it's basically just analyzing their behavior and making that assumption and that answer for them and that's how we're going to treat them and it kind of goes back to like the whole like henry ford thing right like if henry ford had asked people what they wanted they would have said faster horses right instead of cars a lot of times too like what people actually do within an email and what they actually think they're doing there's kind of some discrepancy so by looking at the data it's super important another one could be too like send time when are you sending the email it's super important because with how worldwide and global a lot of people's lists are my people in in the u.s but there's you know four different time zones you have people in Europe and Asia and Africa, etc.

30:19And everyone has different time zones. So me sending at 10am my time, PST, isn't the one size fits all for everyone else. Maybe we should be sending it at 7am everyone's local time, or maybe we should be sending it at 10pm everyone's local time. So by analyzing the behavior of each of your subscribers to understand when they're opening and they're engaging with your emails is going to help you understand when to send it for each person in the future. And then a couple other things could be around like content recommendations. So, you know, recommending content and products and services based off their past behaviors and preferences at scale is actually really, really hard.

30:56A lot of these recommendations that people are giving just aren't the right recommendations. They're doing like a one size fits all versus making sure that the content is super tailored to each person. So I'm like really excited about leveraging the data set historically to make your best guess forward and along with kind of future testing to serve people content and having content be dynamic and that's super relevant so like i think like emails moving towards allowing people to convert and buy within an email through amp and by leveraging ai to send people the right thing so that's some of the stuff that you can leverage right now to have these insights to drive more conversions when you do this you'll notice a big difference in your conversions.

31:39How do you do that though? Like what tools, like, yeah, can we get into specifics? Yeah. So like, for example, like Klaviyo is probably the big one that most people know in e-commerce, right? Sanlain is another one that people know, you know, Jimmy Kim, great guy. Like Klaviyo is investing a lot of money into their predictive analytics, right? So if you go into Klaviyo, you could kind of do these things directly and natively within the tool. So one of the things I mentioned before was like understanding people's genders. If you go into Klaviyo, you can do predictive analytics for gender. And what they're going to basically do is they're going to analyze all your people on your list.

32:12They're going to look at their names and they're going to take that data and compare it with census data. And they're going to say the name Chase. Maybe we're not sure if that's a guy or a girl, right? It could be either. But the name Paul was always a guy, right? And the name Veronica was always a female. They're able to take this really big data set of like the likelihood that someone is male versus female or unknown and then from there if you're sending an email to men the top half of your email should be products for men and then the second half should be products for women but if you're selling to women it should be the opposite women's content should be first men should be second and just by like these small adjustments and edits we've been seeing lifts and click-through conversion rate and at scale i mean we're emailing 50 000 people typically on the lowest side for our clients upwards to like five or ten million if we're able to lift conversion rates by a couple points you know in each email if we can lift it by 10 or 20 over what it was it's pretty significant in terms of revenue we're driving so schools like klaviyo and i think send lane has it they're rolling out a lot of these tools are kind of natively building it and that's kind of like in terms of like the future of e-commerce like in terms of people like getting access to this i think the technology needs to continue to improve there's some of it today like we're actively doing the things that I just told you about today.

33:30But if the tech comes a little bit further, and it becomes a little bit more universal, where every single ESP, every email platform, right, has this, then it's going to be so easy for this to happen. And I think the future is like, AI is automatically analyzing data, it's automatically recommend recommending things. And I actually even think too, that like a lot of these ESPs are going to take tools out there, like copy AI, or Jasper AI and build them in or integrate them in. And it's actually going to write the copy and it's going to create the designs for you and it's going to give you these different types of things and then for you as the marketer you might be able to say hey i want this or i want that so i think like that's the future is like this tools set getting a little bit more robust this automatically creating things and almost like you have like an email template where you can kind of create and drag and drop modules i think templates are going to be created for us and copies can be created for us and it's up to us as the final sayers of this to be like cool this looks great as is or make these changes or combine these two versions right so i think that's like where it's at where it's going so i think it's going to like empower people to take responsibilities that they otherwise needed to offload because right now like the process of getting this whole thing that we're talking about done is is really time expense time extensive and really expensive right now as a marketer you have to come through data you have to share the learnings with the copywriters and the designers you have to then come up with the angle you're going to take.

34:52The copywriter then writes the copy. The designer then does the design. And then it goes through all these iterations and this feedback. And the current process right now is so inefficient. It's not quick. And I think AI is going to allow these things to just be super quick and in real time. And one person can have the power of five people. So this stuff is a lot of it's possible today. And part of this end part, I think, is what's possible in the future. So, man, look, I could talk to you all day about this stuff, but we have to work towards wrapping up i've got one last question and that is if you could boil it down to one tool that could give e-com founders a competitive advantage using ai what would it be how would you go about it like yeah yeah that's a really good question i'd say like the the two the two right because there are two different things i'd say like chat gpt is insane for editing and ideation and copy and first draft i think that uh paired with your esp so whether it's klaviyo or send lane like those compared together is really powerful right um having some of the stuff that can't be done in the esp is done through chat gpt and some of the things that can't be done in in the other so i think like chat gpt plus your esp klaviyo or send lane it's super powerful for the data for the copy for all these things i think you could be pretty unstoppable with those two yeah and then when it comes to chat gpt how do you best train it and i know like you've got to run soon but like yeah how do you best train it man because it's it's not enough just to like type in write this email you know because people can tell and it's the copies and like good yeah i think one like comes with like understanding like how to create prompts and then two is just giving feedback and then they recently rolled out the ability to kind of set like universal rules so like for example before what i would do is i would just keep the same tab open for my twitter posts and i'd have a different tab for linkedin and i would be just every day feeding it these are the tweets that i did this week that did well this is what what each one got so i would just feed it the data i would feed it examples right and the other cool thing too is somehow chat gbt has known who i am so i'll even ask them saying write tweets like you're chase diamond and it's pretty crazy to see the feedback and they'll be like and they'll use emojis i'm like no no no i don't use emojis no emojis and they'll use hashtag like no hashtags so i've kind of just like started with you know basic to decent prompts and then just given a lot of feedback over time and then i've sent my kind of global rules for it so that way it learns and it knows and then all i have to do now at this point is like you know next one and it can create me a table pulling from my blog or it could create me a table pulling from something i upload so it's pretty crazy like once you train it enough like it gets pretty good.

37:35So you would say that majority of the content that you're putting out is created by AI? Created, edited, updated. So I wouldn't say like AI is the end all be all of my content, but all my content touches AI in some form. So a lot of like what I found that works on social media, this is away from like e-commerce email marketing, like a lot of what I found on LinkedIn in particular, dude, over the last 12 months, I've had 110 million impressions of my content on LinkedIn, all organic. And what I've basically done is I've gone to sources like my Twitter, I've taken my top posts on Twitter. And I say, Hey, edit these to be more on brand for LinkedIn, right?