548: He Made $20M in a Year Selling Supplements | Caleb Marshall [VIDEO]

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0:39Just head to omnisend.com forward slash founder without the E to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. I was chronically sick. Doctors labeled me with chronic fatigue syndrome, which is a doctor's polite way of saying I've got no idea what's wrong with you. Absolute exhaustion, inflammation throughout my whole body, pain, couldn't run 50 meters without being dizzy. If you cut out the crap from your diet and replace it with high quality nutrition, your life will change and an absolute miracle occurred. Within two to three weeks, I was feeling like a brand new person. We started out of our apartment, we brought the powders in and then we just filled them into pouches.

1:16We went from zero dollars to doing over$10 million bootstrapped in three years. And then when we moved into our facility, sales skyrocketed.

1:28Learn the proven methods and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder Podcast with Nathan Chan.

1:41We've got Caleb Marshall, founder of Tropeka, incredible supplements brand. He's come down from Sydney, all the way from Sydney to do this interview. So Caleb, thank you so much for taking the time, man. Thanks for having me, Matt. You're welcome. So let's start off with your story. You experienced chronic fatigue in 2011, and that's really what shaped this brand. Tell me exactly what happened. Yes, it was a very horrible period in my life. Between 2011 to 2014, for three and a half years, I was chronically sick. Doctors labeled me with chronic fatigue syndrome, which is a doctor's polite way of saying, I've got no idea what's wrong with you.

2:22And that's because it's an exclusionary illness. So they go down the list of different possible issues that you could have. And then they get to the bottom. They say, well, it's not this, this, this, and this. And they get to the bottom and they say, well, the only thing we have left is to label you with chronic fatigue syndrome. And what that looked like on a day-to-day basis was absolute exhaustion, inflammation throughout my whole body, pain. I couldn't run 50 meters without being dizzy. With the physical pain, I had emotional pain. I was depressed. I had suicidal thoughts at times. and one of the worst things was a lack of hope because doctors didn't know what was wrong with me and when i'd be healthy again and uh that led me on a path of self-discovery of like how do i how do i heal myself and in 2014 i found a thing called functional and integrative medicine and they look at the underlying they they try to find the underlying root cause of why you're sick in the first place and they also say things like if you cut out the crap from your diet and replace it with high quality nutrition as well as doing very other very important things like focusing on great sleep stress reduction exercise drinking clean filtered water all of that stuff but for the the biggest focus is cutting out the crap from your diet and replacing it with that high quality nutrition they say your life will change around your body has the capacity to heal itself in in the vast majority of cases and i tried everything else and i'm like yeah i'll give it a go and yeah I did that and an absolute miracle occurred and within two to three weeks I was feeling like a brand new person again I'd reduced that inflammatory load on my body and I was feeling and I wasn't getting those symptoms and I was starting my body was starting to heal and my housemate at the time was going through his own health issues and high quality nutrition changed his life around as well now on a side note I learned through functional medicine the The underlying root cause was long-term antibiotic use for my skin as a teenager that I used because I had acne.

4:24And so those five years of antibiotics absolutely destroyed my gut. And with that, that's where your immune system is. And so my immune system was massively compromised. Anyway, through all of this journey, as we were trying to get healthy and were getting healthy, we'd go down to the health food store in 2014 and realize the only people going into a health food store at the time were old people and hippies like no one was making health foods cool to anyone everything was in a brown paper bag and one of the best strategies in business is finding old outdated industries and being like how can you make this cool how can you especially in the world of social media where we realized like okay you and a fashion brand or an alcohol brand could make their products cool in 2014 but no one could make health foods cool and social media is there as an as an outlet for people to express their values and so we recognized that we're like let's do it on a on an absolute you know bootstrap shoestring kind of budget barely any money and so it took us two years to find the best product development experts to help us develop the best products We obviously were consumers of the products, so we really knew what we loved and what we wanted to do as well.

5:39And then all the other things that come with growing a business and launching. And so in 2016, we finally launched and we had a$0 marketing budget. We put all our money into buying inventory and getting the website up and running and all of that fun stuff. And so we're like, well, what do we do? How do we sell this product? And so I stumbled across a thing called influencer marketing and it was if you send your products to people on social media, which was the thing that we were trying to endeavour in doing anyway, then hopefully they might promote the product for free. And we did that. And because we were the first in the industry to, one, have an incredibly good product that was branded really well and the product did what it said it would do, so people had a great impact from it, we got so much free publicity because of it through these influences back then.

6:36And I'm going much further than what your question said, but I might as well tell the full journey, well, a lot of it. But in that time, we didn't need to spend money in order to grow the business. It was an exceptionally great time to be kind of that first mover advantage around providing a product and a brand that people wanted to get behind and really enjoy taking. Yeah, I see. So talk me through like obviously working on your gut health and eating high quality foods helped change your life and your housemate's life. um like what was the first idea iteration of the product did you start with the hero product i know i've got some research here you put in sixty thousand dollars to launch your business and get the first line of supplements like what talk me through the details yeah so my housemate became my co-founder i should probably mention that as well so it was a really cool story there and we ended up putting in$60 ,000 each over the course of that two-year period.

7:47So we'd work 16-hour days. I was a tennis coach. I was getting healthy so I could work a lot. And I put all of my money over that two-year period into launching the business. And so the funny thing is the first thing that we wanted to do in terms of product development was kombucha before kombucha was cool. I still remember like making my own kombucha back in the day before it hit I think around 2017 it became pretty trendy so this is 2014 but we didn't have the money to start a kombucha brand yeah and and buy you know the MOQs and things along those lines so we're like well what else do we take well we love organic superfoods and so we decided to start an organic superfood brand and the funny thing that came out of that was we also as an afterthought just before launch were like oh we should also we take plant proteins we should create a plant protein product as well and that ended up being our hero product uh it's um it's a much bigger niche protein powders than organic superfoods so thank god for that and we essentially became the first company uh at least in australia one of the first in the world.

9:01I didn't know any other company that had a plant protein that tasted great. They all tasted like crap back in the day and was branded really cool and something that someone would want to show off to their friends rather than something in a brown paper bag. So yeah, that was our first products. Got you. So you launched with a plant protein, plant-based protein in the superfoods. What happens with the superfoods? Oh, they're still around and they're doing great. So they're in major retail and we export them all around the world uh but i just we went to our first our first love was oh we take superfoods you know greens powders immune supporting powders uh and acai powder yeah all organic so that was kind of the we're scratching our own itch we're like we want to be able to take these products as well yes and uh that's how it kind of came about but then we're like oh we can also do a protein here and we did take proteins and we're like oh we can make this protein taste a bit better than what we're taking at the moment through X, Y, and Z.

10:00Yep, got you. So when it came to the launch, talk me through your first sale. Like, was it through influencer marketing? How much did it cost to launch, right? You and your co-founder put in$60 ,000 from what, 2016 to 2018, is that right? Yeah, so 120 ,000 in total. Yep, okay. And that's just in stock? Sorry, from 2014 to 2016. Okay, so 2014 to 2016, you put in 60 grand each. and that was just in stock or? Website, the whole box and dice. Yeah, okay. Us wasting money trying to do, figure out what to do, you know, and trying to answer the question of what do we not know that we don't know that we don't know.

10:40Yep, okay. And talking to me around first batch of orders, what was MOQ, how many products did you launch with and how did you get your first sale? Yeah, so we started out of our apartment. Yep. And we brought the powders in that were already completed powders and then we just filled them into pouches. And so you don't know about how, like the funny thing is we have the highest level of product quality and food safety at the moment where Tropeka is with HACCP certified. but we had none of that back in the day but we always think like when you start out of your own apartment and your own house like your food quality and food safety when it's just the two of you is the highest it'll ever be it's like um one you live in the place but two it's the two founders doing whatever they can can to make the product the best it possibly can from day one so it was one of those stories where yeah we're starting out of our apartment but we were able to still produce high quality products that then we'd send to customers they didn't know that it was coming out of an apartment all they saw was obviously is fantastic and high quality and so that's where we started uh in terms of our first sale yeah i still remember our first sale that came in uh and it was through an influencer i still remember our first influencer who posted she posted around our acai and our immunity product and uh i think i caught i met i saw her at a trade an expo like a couple years ago a few years ago and i was like did you know you helped generate our first customer so it was like a special experience yeah yeah there you go and uh it was like sales booming because you were early days influencer marketing or was it like Talk me through that.

12:30Yeah, so it took us nine months to get out of our apartment. So I don't know if you'd say that's booming. I mean, it was booming for a company that was in an apartment. Yeah, yeah. So the trajectory of our business was we went from$0 to doing over$10 million bootstrapped in three years. So that period was booming. But I remember it was just the most perfect timing when as soon as we got out of our apartment into our first warehouse and first food facility, sales skyrocketed that next month. So it was, and then when we moved into our facility, the one before where we are now, sales skyrocketed.

13:14So there's been some really perfect, I suppose, divine timing in everything, which has been very special. Yeah. And look, there's a lot of supplement brands, superfood brands out there for anyone watching what advice would you give to compete in this market today you really need to come up with something that's innovative and when i say innovative what i mean is that every week i see a new company in the health and wellness space come up and it's the same thing and it's like do you not realize like what you're up against like company there are so many companies doing what we do they have the budgets that can just out compete you with cpa cpms they have the know-how they have the brand reputation and loyalty and following to crush you like it is so so hard when it's a saturated market the blessing with this market is it's a low barrier to entry so we were able to get in in the early days back in 2016 but the issue with a low barrier to entry is every man and his dog's trying to create a protein and superfood company at the moment so i'll give you some good examples of how to do it there's a guy on i can't remember his name but there's a guy on instagram and he was like the first to bring out cmos and there was no cmos like three years ago and he's doing a great job and it's innovative he's using his audience to promote a product that isn't saturated he's bringing a really high quality product to market and that's awesome to see whereas whereas if you don't have that point of difference you're just going to get flooded and saturated from competition so always trying to think okay what's different about this why would a customer want to purchase off me as opposed to someone else and then also being aware that first mover is great but also first mover on on the flip side is really tough and an example of that is we are first movers in a thing called beauty custard which is the world's first beauty powder it's you you mix it in with cold water and milk and it's you can have a delicious dessert in one minute and the issue with that is there's no other beauty custard on the planet so it takes a whole lot of education which costs a lot of money in order to teach people one why they should take it by this product and why they should use it in the first place.

15:40So although I say, okay, you got to come up with something innovative, you've also got to balance that off with what are your capabilities of educating an audience that one, you don't have because you're a new company to one, purchase the product, know that it's better to purchase off you than going and purchasing another health food product. And then on top of that, how to actually use it in the first place. So what would you say to somebody that's thinking of drop shipping something like Shilajit. Are you hesitating to take the next step in your e-commerce journey? Founder Plus has you covered.

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16:41Well, is there a business in that? Well, dropshipping is extremely hard. I've never done dropshipping, but I've listened to enough people who I look up to who have said like dropshipping is tough. And I mean, I can see the value in dropshipping to test a market. And I can also see, okay, SheLegit is trending really hard on TikTok and it's a great quality product, especially if you get the tar. So that thing's legit. I was taking She Legit four years ago. Really? Before anyone even knew about it, yeah. Okay. But, I mean, it's been used for thousands of years, so I'm not really that much of a first mover there.

17:17Yeah, okay. But, yeah, it's a legit product. It's a great product, but I could name a few companies already dominating that space. I was just at an expo a couple weeks ago and those Sheila Jit companies. So yeah, again, you're going up against competition. So if anyone's watching, listening or reading this and they want to create an incredible health and wellness brand in the supplement space, you need to create a brand, right? And like what has been key to Tropica in terms of brand building? Like you started with a great product. You've got a great story, right? That's a story people will remember.

18:01That's a story people will resonate with. It's an amazing origin story and it really shows the strength of your products. But what else do people need from your perspective to create a brand that stands out in this market? Well, brand is really just the reputation you hold. And you can hold reputation through a number of ways. We hold reputation by the fact that we have over 20 ,000 five-star reviews. We hold reputation over the fact that you can put the product anywhere on your shelf at home or even cafes do this and show it off as a statement piece. We hold brand through the fact that people want to tell others about our products.

18:41And one of our biggest acquisition channels is word of mouth. So brand is everything. Brand is what separates you from your competition. but brand is not a thing unless you build something foundational behind the brand in order to give brand what it's meant to give. You can have a bad brand and you can have a good brand and so the components of a good brand is all of those things that I just said. What about association? Do you guys have any sponsored ambassadors? Like I know that's a big thing. Oh, I can't remember that company but there was that guy. He was a bit funny looking but he was a real muscly kind of dude and he had an old ambassador program for his line of, I guess, powders and stuff.

19:25I forget now. He's come and gone. But yeah, like do you have an ambassador program or do you do anything like that? Yeah, we have – I mean we still do have influencers and ambassadors. We were very, very dominant in the influencer marketing space between 2016 and 2020 up until COVID And then everyone came in with dumb money, especially corporations, and started throwing massive amounts at influencers. And then also the level of trust that influencers once held has been degrading for quite some time. But we focus a lot still on areas where trust is still relatively high, like micros and nanos and those with smaller audiences.

20:10And we do both in-house and work with an external agency there as well in order to do that. but that's just one piece of our puzzle. Our main focus is performance marketing these days. But we try and encourage our customers to be our influencers. So again, like acquisition, word of mouth is one of our greatest acquisition channels. So the question is, how can we as a business help people tell other people about our products? And there's a range of strategies from what everyone now does, but it was innovative back in the day many years ago, which is give some sort of incentive for people posting on their account on social media for their next order.

20:56And yeah, there's different programs that you can use like Shopify Collabs and whatnot that allow you to have a system in place to help people and create as little friction as possible to be an ambassador for your company. Yeah, so if you were to start a brand today, would you start with performance or you'd start with influencer or what would you do to get traction? Assuming the product is great. I would start with performance, pay to play. Absolutely. I mean, organic is so tough even for influencers. Like there's just a growing amount of competition across content And it's going to exponentially scale in the next year and two years off the back of AI.

21:49Even Mark Zuckerberg came out a couple of weeks ago and showed his video version of AI video content that people will have access to next year. AI is going to create scale that will be mind boggling. And so the only way that you can guarantee getting eyeballs is through pay to play, which is performance marketing. And I'm completely happy as a company figuring out, okay, what do I need to do in order to produce great creative that I can then send to millions of people in order to convince them to purchase my product? That does not mean that you shouldn't look at a whole bunch of different strategies, including influencer marketing and ambassadors.

22:34And you should have an ambassador program for your existing customers. But it's not the glory days of influencer marketing anymore and hasn't been for a long time. Okay. So even with the emergence of TikTok, TikTok shop, you don't see, you know, you guys would ship internationally, you guys on TikTok shop? So no, we're not. So that's a great point. And funnily enough, I should have said this earlier, like treat what I say as well with a grain of salt. Things change so quickly, right? And so I don't hold firmly to any beliefs. Like it's, what is it, October 21st, 2024. You could ask me this in December and my opinion could completely change.

23:19And that's what's so important that you stay up ahead with the trends and know what you're doing. so at the moment tiktok shop isn't available to australians but i'm going to be the first on tiktok shop when it's available and yeah utilizing creators to incentivize and provide a commission is a great idea i mean we do that already through shopify collabs and it has success and also take what i say as a grain of salt because like our business is structured in a certain way like i could be saying all of this stuff and i could just suck at influencer marketing these days i could try tiktok shops and tell you that it's not good and i could just suck at it i see plenty of accounts that say hey i made a hundred thousand dollars last month on tiktok shops now are they telling the truth maybe not maybe they are and i think the only way for you to get a definitive answer as a founder is you need to dig deep into things test and see if it works for your business and that's the other thing everyone sells different products so you need to have an answer that applies to your company not someone else's company including mine yeah no I agree um one of my mentors once said to me this thing around situational stage advice right like it was early days founder and uh I was like oh man like um do you think I should just be responding to every comment on Instagram because like that's what Gary Vee does.

24:49That's what Gary Vee says to do, right? And he's like, Nathan, you've got millions of followers on Instagram for founder. Gary Vee has millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars in salary that he can afford to pay people. So he has the time to do that. He's like, you don't, right? And that's where you have to be really, really careful when you listen to a podcast like this because people can just take something it's like that's the gospel that's the truth that's how it works at the end of the day every single channel works it just depends on your execution do you agree with that so true so true and and who are your employees within your business and what are they what are their strengths and that's the question you need to be asking yourself if you do have employees and you're not just a founder by yourself like i've got to be asking myself every day okay is our front office marketing department and the agencies that we work with are they set up to effectively execute on this channel or that channel what's our type of what our creators and our create in-house creative team like what kind of creative are they really good at are they really good at video are they really good at pinterest images you know should we be on pinterest and spending money on pinterest because everyone wants to talk about tiktok and everyone wants to talk about meta well i can guarantee there's companies out there killing it on pinterest 100 i know one yeah right we're not killing it on pinterest doesn't mean that pinterest isn't great right so you need to know your product but also you need to know your team and you also need to know the type of product that you're selling even within an industry to really make an informed decision so talk me through trapeka's growth what can you share with us around any numbers around you started this company what almost a decade ago now um well yeah you started you started 2016 2016 yeah you started in 2016 so almost a decade now um you know can you talk us through what you can share around you've gone from zero bootstrapped the business still uh you know zero to ten million in three years where you guys are at now?

27:02What can you share around either valuation, top line revenue, any major financial milestones that you'd like to share just to give people an understanding of scale? Yeah. So, I mean, we don't disclose our numbers. I don't even know what our valuation is, but we're an eight figure a year business. We're growing, which is great, growing across retail, e-commerce and exports. and yeah still 100 % owned by Blake my co-founder and I and bootstrapped and loving it yeah awesome so talk me through I guess the early stages that first couple of years of getting the business up and going talking about the hard times were there any times you felt like giving up were any times you thought isn't going to work?

27:50Yeah, so Blake and I, we've never felt like giving up, but we've certainly had plenty of occasions where we know things aren't working and won't work. And we've learned a lot through our mistakes. One of the biggest dangers in business is not knowing what you don't know. And so I think so much of what you're trying to figure out in those first couple of years but even now is like what do i not know that i need to ask someone to tell me what my blind spots are that's where mentors are so great but mentors don't have to be anything official right so from how to send freight domestically and internationally when we first started we're standing freight internationally after like eight or nine months how to set up operations how to create a facility that's able to scale with the systems around it to ensure we maintain food quality and food safety how to become certified organic how to have the correct inventory system because we're manufacturers how to be great at hr all of these were massive challenges that you know that we had no idea how to do it so i asked a heap load of questions and that has been one of the best ways to expedite success, finding people who are smarter than you and being like, what do I do here?

29:28And one of the great places to do that as well is like find a provider and then ask them heaps of questions because it's in their economic incentive. If they're providing a service to tell you about their service plus the other peripheral things of which there are many around their chosen topic. So for instance, we have consultants around inventory systems. And so I ask the question, okay, what else would they know? They would know potentially operations, systems and operations, freight and operations, connecting different systems within a company from the website to the inventory system to the shipping system.

30:09And so these experts, they'll provide you with one service, but then you can ask those questions because you've engaged them to learn more about the service. And suddenly you get free mentorship while also paying them to do a service. Yeah, look, I think consultants, agencies, always great to learn, find out what they're doing with other clients. But then at the same time, over time where you can, you want to bring that internally it depends though they did once again situational stage but yeah I agree that's a great way to learn especially when you're paying for a service and they have experience and exposure to other markets and other industries to find out what's working so can you give us an example I guess if we go a little deeper Caleb I'd just like to go a little deeper like in those first two years you know um you started with influencer marketing was there anything there that where it was just like wow this is not working right or was it just like fully like smooth sailing the funny thing is i have an incredible ability to forget things that were painful yeah i think that's true and i think i think you need that as an entrepreneur I can't remember.

31:29Like I have a really good memory, but even my fiance is like, man, you forget things about traumatic events in business like from two weeks ago. And it needs to be water off a duck's back. So, I mean, I look back at some of the things that were really traumatic that still I get like some PTSD from and that's like moving warehouses while being bootstrapped. It's not like you have all this cash flow to then put into building and constructing a new facility and then not being able to have any downtime and moving it all across and the costs involved in that and the legalities around CDCs and OCs. And you've got HACCP and you've got ACO certified organic and USDA certified organic to keep happy and all that.

32:17So they were a couple of my most challenging moments in my life that really I wouldn't wish on my enemies. But besides that, look, we started from absolute rock bottom, like no money. And then during the times when I was sick, I was riding around on an old push bike that I had to get repaired. I was flat broke, chronically sick. So anything, any sale was better than what I had. that doesn't mean that every day wasn't like working my ass off 16 hours a day across tennis coaching and this new company to get it into a space where we could actually start paying ourselves it was close to a full year before i stopped being a tennis coach entirely about yeah about 10 11 months so the irony with it is you're working 16 hour days doing something very unhealthy and stressful while running a health food company trying to preach to be healthy but that's the sacrifice you have to make our central mission in our company is to positively impact millions of people in their health I know how much it sucks to be unhealthy and I want to do whatever I can to make millions of people healthy and by blessing so many people and my team has that same vision we're able to to you know have ourselves blessed at the same time when you impact so many people i remember when i was early days founder man i didn't sleep some nights i was having so much fun did that happen to you 16 hour days that's pretty long man it is i was doing 80 hour weeks above 80 90 hour weeks yeah well 16 hour days monday to friday and then i dropped back to about eight hour days on the weekend yeah but yeah i love what i do like i still to this day i have the same passion it's like i can see someone watching netflix next to me and i have no interest i want to work i love building stuff i'm i have entrepreneur the entrepreneurial spirit running through my veins and it's fueled by a lot of pain in my health back in the day and how powerful it was my life turning around so that i could not only not be practically bedridden at some time but now being able to live a life full of energy and full of purpose and passion I'm so incredibly grateful.

34:45Have you ever experienced burnout? Not during Trapeco. You could call chronic fatigue syndrome when I was sick burnout but I'm so proactive on looking after my health and so proactive on recovery and I know what I need to do to look after my body and I put myself through the fire so often mentally that I reject all thought of burnout

35:15and I think and I truly believe that if people aren't looking after the five key fundamentals of their health which is cut out the crap from your diet and replace it with high quality nutrition drink clean filtered water get great sleep i get great sleep every day or i aim to stress reduction and finding ways to meditate or reduce stress and exercise i truly i know that they're the foundational elements of great health and that so many cases of burnout are because people aren't focusing on all five of those things and that's something that I do every single day and I'll need to continue to do that and be very disciplined around it.

36:02Yeah, look, I was going through each of your five things because I went through burnout and I wouldn't wish it, like same as you, I wouldn't wish it on my, not that I have any enemies, but like I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Like I remember thinking I could have all the money, the success, all these things that we you know inherently strive for like the you know the greatest business in the world but you don't have anything if you don't have your mental health and I went through a period where I'm sure same as you guys COVID just absolutely boomed and it did for us at founder and I was like you know what like I'm like I just and you couldn't do anything but work and I worked work work work and then when things started to come back early 2021 I was just like I don't even want to go to work it was really really really tough and I look back on those five things that you shared and I wasn't really doing any of them and then it's it's no wonder that happened and like up until that point I had no off switch and I loved work and there's a part of me man that perhaps I haven't like fully ever got back to that ever since then and it's it's really really tough like so with your chronic fatigue um that that came obviously from the food and nutrition but were you working super hard as well and and did you live a very stressful life or I wasn't working very hard uh pre-2011 I was at university yeah I had stress in my life but the main thing was the long-term antibody cures.

37:43I should also say, by the way, I know my limits. Like I'm not working 16-hour days now. Yeah. I mean, occasionally I might get up to 15 hours but on a day-to-day basis, I'm working Monday to Friday 12 hours. Yeah. Actually, no, working more than that. 13 hours, maybe 14 hours. And then I'm also going out and reducing stress throughout the day. Like I live on the beach. I'm able to go ground in the sun, exercise, be by myself, mentally refresh, have deep breaths, and do the things that I need to do in order to look after my health and put myself first because I can't be a great leader without putting myself first.

38:24And so it's really important to know your limits. If my limit hits and I recognize that and suddenly I can only work eight hours a day, then I'll work eight hours a day. I won't go and work 12-hour days because that's what I'm meant to do. I'm just very grateful and very blessed that my body is capable looking after those five foundational elements of great health. My body allows me to work 13 hours a day, Monday to Friday, and then on the weekend I might do eight hours a day, six hours one day maybe. Yeah, got you. Thanks for sharing, man. And look, when it comes to expansion, you said you guys are in over 70 countries, right?

39:03Can you talk us through kind of partnerships and the retail side of that that's allowed you to rapidly grow and what you've had to do there? Because I think iOS 14, you talk about performance marketing, post-COVID boom, then iOS 14, a lot of e-commerce brands or strong performance marketing-led companies really took a big hit, right? Massively, massively. Because it's only natural, right? you have one channel you just keep doubling down right and so i found that out of my successful founder friends the ones that you know particularly we'll talk in the context of e-com the ones that were just really focused just on performance versus how to performance and retail they were able to work their way through it now facebook ads is back better than ever and it works really world still not as easy as that what it was but it you can make it work again it was really really tough there for one some period of time unless you had a really good aov and just like yeah like you had a solid brand but now that the the brands that really stood the test of time that didn't take too much of a hit were on the they had a strong retail arm so you guys were one of those no so one of our we we do now yeah one of our biggest mistakes in business was not going into retail early enough we had the majors in australia all of them from 2018 saying hey we want you stocked and we chose not to off the back of a little bit of stupidity just saying look our brand is premium and there's not a place for that in a major supermarket or a major retailer and also we were dominating online why go into retail and the margin is good sorry margins aren't good yeah exactly right um but also like cannibalization of product sales and things along those lines we were thinking about but that was a dumb decision and it was a dumb decision because history shows us that covid came and then again every man and his dog wanted to come in start a health food company during that time and all the major corporations and all these just companies even outside of your industry that are competing with you in the meta auction came in and drove up CPMs and CPAs.