Make Your Offer So Good They Feel Dumb Saying No | Ep 884

0:01You want to present your offers at the point of greatest deprivation, not the point of greatest satisfaction. So if I walk into a restaurant and I'm starving and I say, I want a steak, I eat the steak, waiter comes back and they're like, how's the steak? And I'm like, oh, it was delicious. Thank you so much. They're like, great. You want another steak? I'm like, no, no, I'm good. They're like, oh, you don't like the steak? And you're like, no, I love the steak. It was great. It just seems weird. That's where you get these weird sales conversations. Hey, Alex, thanks for everything that you've done.

0:23I'm James. I sell custom branch railings to homeowners. We did 420 or so last year. I've read 10X is greater than 2X. And so last night it was coming to me again like do i really just want to double or do i want to try to 10x and so what i want to try to do is to develop a network of product specifiers architects designers contractors that can act kind of like a referral network i want to shift away from the minnows and to focus more on whales we had one client last year about fifty thousand dollars worth of hand rails and if i could get 10 of those in a year then i would double revenue just with 10 clients so kind of what are my best strategies to go about achieving that so where did you source the single whale this year?

1:05He found me. It's all inbound. It's all through search. Okay. So SEO or PPC? SEO. Okay. I just started Facebook ads about three or four weeks ago. They were going pretty good, qualified about half of the lead so far. So I would, so if you want to go whale hunting, then I think your initial thought strategy of finding the architectural firms and engineering firms and whatnot is a good one. I would probably try the outreach method as my primary way because you can be hyper targeted in terms of who you're reaching out to and the the key to making it work though is like what's in it for them to refer you business are you asking me that that's an excellent question all right so architects will typically in a plans like if they make a set of plans they'll specify what kind of tiles to use and what kind of windows to use etc so i've we've gotten plans in the past where it's like it's got the pictures from the website with the CAD drawings and everything on the plants.

1:59And so it's like how to persuade them to do that kind of in absentia. And I should also note that we ship nationwide. So this is not like, you know, a hyper-local. Are you shipping or are you doing installs or no? No, we haven't done any. You just actually ship product. Interesting. Got it. Then who are the decision makers? Well, right now it's been primarily residential is what it sounds like. Right. It's primarily homeowners. We've done some commercial work. you know but it's primarily homeowners who are you know looking for something different and so it's very what i call intentional inbound search it's like they're looking for something they're deliberately searching it out they find it you know we have a lead magnet kind of which is like 250 that's yeah right so it's that's the order yeah you know yeah well this is a fundamental change in business strategy so you're aware of that so with that comes risk because like if obviously the lowest or the highest risk adjusted return move or lowest risk i guess is to probably add in like if i were like tomorrow what i do i'd probably just add ppc in right now because you already have something that's working on seo i would probably see how can i get way more articles written so that my seo traffic can go up can i tackle more you know more keywords that's like that for sure will work and make you more money play.

3:16The going after whales for sure can make more money because why not add zeros to things? It'll just be a completely different sale and you'll have two levels of sales. So sale number one is going to be for the affiliates and then figuring out what's going to make it worth it for them. And then the second level is what's the, you know, what's the actual sale to the, to the whale customer. So who's the decision maker with the whales? Like the final decision maker? It's going to be the homeowner, whoever's doing the project. So you just want bigger homeowners? The architects have the ability to specify it and to put it in front of the client.

3:49So like we also did another one, which was about 60 ,000 for a guy that was doing a development of Airbnbs in Virginia. He put up like six yurt kind of things. Yeah. And you know, so I had two very... So both of them were architects that sent you these? The one was an architect and the other was a construction company. Okay. Yeah. So you're going to have to go B2B outreach is the, basically when you look at core four, that's going to be your, what you're going to do. And then they're going to be your affiliates. And so the million dollar question is what's in it for them. So my, my proposition would be, so there's three ways you can do affiliates, at least in the world of Alex.

4:29So you have, they sell you shit for you and they, and they get a commission. That's option one. That's typically my least favorite option, but it is an option option two is that you give them some morsel of something that you sell that they can sell for a hundred percent markup they could keep all the money but you get the introduction this is my favorite way of doing it the third way is that you basically allow them to just bundle in your free thing with their services you know with architecture firms it's not like they're going to bundle in a railing for their service but just for everybody else like those are the three things so it's like they bundle your, your, basically your lead magnet in for free with their thing they sell.

5:07So it makes, it enhances the value of their overall package. You give them the things that they can upsell your lead magnet for an amount of money that they can keep a hundred percent of, or they just sell your stuff and they get a kickback. Is there a version for this where they can just upcharge? Like you can do a small portion of this that they get a hundred percent of a hundred percent. Like, I don't think so. Like maybe some kind of contractors or architect discount? We wanted them to be stupid to say no. Yeah, because like the generic like you get 20 % kickback is just like everyone does it.

5:36Like who here does 20 % kickbacks for anybody who refers your business? You can raise your hand. I'm not going to be upset. Okay. And so the point is, is that and you probably no one here has referred anyone else business. And because no one cares. That's that's kind of the point. And so it has to be an irresistible offer. And so if we give away the lead magnet or something, think about it as like my CAC for a$50 ,000 customer is the cost of the lead magnet. And if I close one out of three introductions, then it's 3x the cost of lead magnet is my cost to a customer, which is usually pretty darn good.

6:09But it sounds like an irresistible offer to the architecture firm because they're like, we can just sell this and keep on a percent. You're like, yep, just make the introduction and I'll deliver that. And then when you talk to the customer, you're like, yeah, I'll deliver that. Here's one rail, but you need 10 more and then you make the sale does that make sense i'm not entirely sure like people would order the entire project okay it's not like you can just like i can't just ship you a sample and be like hey look here's a yeah then you're gonna have to do the commission-based structure which is not my favorite but that's probably the way you're gonna have to do it so either you can do the discount i mean i would say guys i have 20 that i can play with here so you can take all 20 and give them no discount you can take a 10 discount and then they get and and you get 10 % kickback.

6:47Like, this is what I got. I'll make it work whatever way you want, but this is my bare bottom price. Okay. And I think that's what, like, that's the outbound strategy. So should I then in turn raise prices for direct to consumer? Yeah, I love that. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Love that for you. My name's Cody. I sell roofs to people. We did 140 million last year. Trying to do 250 million this year. Trying to figure out how to follow the principle of giving away more guarantees and bonuses when I have such high hard cost and such a high ticket item. Yeah. Well, what are gross margins right now? 40%.

7:24Gross. What's net? 10 to 15. Okay. Got it. Do you want to sell it or do you just want to keep it forever? Well, I actually just sold my roofing business and now we're part of a PE firm that now I'm directing that entire. So are you the platform? Yes. Okay. So you're the platform and how many tuckens have they done? Eight. got it how long has it been since they started about three four years i just got acquired 30 or we just closed 30 days ago and now they're trying to roll everything into my brand and i'm yeah yeah got it okay so sorry go back to the original question if you don't have like better context on this whatever so how do i give a you know follow the principle of give away more value make the you know offer so good it's it's you gotta feel dumb saying no when i have such high hard costs i you know i can't really do a money back guarantee i can't really give away more than a roof.

8:13Well, the question is, is that the constraint? Is that the thing that's limiting the growth of the business? In my theory, yes, because if I create a good enough offer, then I could roll that offer out to the eight other brands and that would be the biggest amount of leverage that I could deliver in the shortest amount of time. And is everyone insurance-based? That's why they acquired us because we're retail. So you're the only guy selling just new roofs. Everyone else is doing storm chasing and damage repair and shit like that? Correct. And what they want us to do is bring the retail model to the other brands and add another layer is we sell everything 100 % virtually.

8:43So no in-home appointments. It's all digital. And so that's the vision is taking that nationwide. Centralized sales virtually. Right. So you want an irresistible roof offer. I want to blow the roof off. I feel like if I were in your position, the first thing that I would do would be centralize everything first without trying to change. Basically, I would take the model that I already know works. What was your revenue before you did that before you were acquired okay you're doing 20 so i would like in terms of introducing levels of change so this is actually pretty good for everybody like i i will typically not try and change like five things at once and so you centralizing all sales is going to get cost efficiency improvements and you're going to be able to have higher sales utilization so you probably cut off the bottom third of the sales force that's low performing that alone might give you a 25 lift in general because the best sales guys will take more of the sales and you'll have centralized all the costs like we have centralized all the costs right and so you'll have an increase in revenue and a decrease in cost that's paired that would probably be my first step the floor part of the acquisition deal that's the only way i did that position is if they were going to give me full control and centralized sales so but like i wouldn't i mean i know the question is about roofing but like that's what i would do first and that will probably take you six months or more realistically in terms of in terms of the offer to roofs an offer that's worked really well in home services is instead of being a money back guarantee, I position it as a profit guarantee.

10:09So it's like, listen, you want your thing to be on time and on budget probably. And so I guarantee that I will deliver it on time and on budget, or I'll give you my profit, which is 20%, whatever. And that way it's like, you're not underwater and you still have 40 % gross margin. So you're not really losing on the deal. But then people are like, okay, so he's got skin in the game. And so that's a way of closing significantly more deals because the two biggest obstacles that, well, you would know this, but in most home services, it's on time, on budget. And probably for roofs, it's like, and how much am I going to be displaced?

10:39How much is going to interrupt my life? And so I would put my guarantee around those items and then just have a marginal amount that's back. But it's really just because all they don't. So the big thing, which is right with guarantees is that people don't want their money back. They want the roof. And so they just want to know that you care enough to make sure the roof gets delivered. And so that's really the solve for the guarantee is it just pays down risk of them not getting what they want and so as long as that gets accomplished you don't have to do with money back you can just do it with some money back that gets them to say yes does that help yes make it perfect hey alex hello thank you for the content you create my name is mohammed fatale i'm the founder of el fan what i'm the founder of el fan so el send yeah okay so basically we sell tools to creators have to make more money and we also simplify how brands collaborate with creators okay i mean tools like software so software and serve agency tools so we have a music label a creator agency for big creators and then a platform as well.

11:32Okay. So I'm coming to that just in a bit. I know the focus topic. We made around 4.3 million last year. And basically my goal is trying to get to 100 million. All right. Now the issue here is... What's the split between the three in terms of revenue? 1 million for the creator agency. Okay. 1.3 million for the music label. And then the rest is on the brand side. And the brand side is you basically being an agent to do... Exactly. Connecting it both. But basically what I've been doing is that I realized that disruption of AI that's kind of coming in. I also saw the scalability, what we were doing, because I've been in the YouTube space for a while.

12:05So a lot of these services aren't going to be scaling as much. So in the past two years, I've been taking that profit and putting it into a tech platform. Basically, it's like a creator store where you can sell your services, digital products, but also items that you love. So the skincare that you use, the hair cream, the shoes, and you'll earn a commission. And we use all of that data to make it easier for brands to know what creators to work with. Because right now in influencer marketing, It's like a spray method, right? I'm going to pay. I have no idea how much conversion they're going to actually get me, but our integration shows you for a thousand clicks, they get you these number of visitors and then they end up buying.

12:40My challenge here right now is that I'm trying to scale that business, but my business model is we make money when you make money. So on the brand side, we get a 15 % commission or a margin on all the spend. And on the creator side, we get around 8 % from whatever they make with their fans by selling these digital products and courses or affiliate links. Okay. My issue here is I got 40 ,000 creators, but only 1 ,000 are making money. Right. And I've been kind of struggling between going on a SaaS model to be able to scale. Because when I do any social marketing, we get a creator that comes on board, but they don't make money right away.

13:13So it's not like, you know, and the longer it takes you to recoup your ad spend is not usually a good metric for scalability. So I'm kind of pivoting. should I go into a SaaS model where whatever I make from the creator, I'll just be like, hey, just pay me that price and I take 0 % from you. And then I just charge the brands the commission to collaborate with those creators. This way I can scale the business in a much faster. Say the last part again. So instead of me making percentages from creators, I provide them the same tools that a lot of them make money and I keep 0%. Okay. But then let's say they have to pay like 20 bucks a month.

13:48Sure. but then i still make my money on the upside on the brand side by connecting them with these creators okay so switch to a subscription switch to the subscription yeah okay because right now like i have 40 000 creators who signed up but i'm really making money off a thousand right and it's free to sign up and you only get paid if they get paid yeah so you're in a prosumer audience so if you look at like shopify for example it's super it's if you look at the amount of people we've tried to build marketplaces, almost all of them fail. And it's my opinion that the best marketplaces do run as SaaS.

14:21And then once they get to scale, they can kind of push more marketplace like Shopify, for example, like it's 29 bucks a month or whatever it is, because they know that the vast majority, like they make more money charging$29 a month than getting 4 % on zero for the vast majority of stores. But people continue to pay for the hope that someday they will make money. And so I think the idea of switching to SaaS is not a bad one. I am concerned about the four businesses that you have. So, because in order to win at SaaS, you have to be like all in on software. And so the alternative to that would be instead of letting creators come on for free, you would charge them to come on, which you could do.

15:03It has like a one-time setup fee and then maybe increase the likelihood that they win either path would work but if the ultimate goal is that you want to build a network of creators then you want to have the lowest barrier possible on the creator side so i'm still thinking of a free tier and a paid tier with some minor benefits but then if you really want to make money you got to end up paying subscription exactly yeah yeah you'll have to play with the feature set because that's always a a bitch it just path of least resistance to getting to 100 mil yeah so i think i think adding the subscription for the base and still maintaining the revenue that you get from the the the sponsors makes sense i would maybe push back slightly on the hypothesis that they can't convert anything because it dramatically decreases the value of the network from the sponsor side what do you mean some people will pay for impressions yeah and so those guys can for sure deliver those and so maybe there's like two tiers that you can sell you have another product on the ad side or the media side that's just something to consider perfect thank you that's you just validated my thoughts so oh good i'm glad i'm digging the right way no i think it makes sense yeah either have to basically you have to position as higher ticket and do premium awake level onboarding and then select only for the really good creators and that would be like you charge five or ten thousand dollars and you really get them set up or you basically flip the other way go freemium and then it's all based on like basically media arbitrage where you're just running tons and tons of ads to get people onto the platform and you just know what your average revenue per platform user is perfect thank you hi i'm mauricio i sell corporate training focus on soft skills to large company through soft skills what you help who do soft skills which i train companies in soft skills okay and coaching etc We do 1.3 million in revenue on a project-based model.

16:52I would like to be at 100 million subscription-based model. And what's stopping me is a project-based model is more lucrative. So I feel like stuck with these whales that doesn't want the subscription model. So project-based isn't bad. You just need to demonstrate. So this is the concept of recurring versus reoccurring, right? And so if you go project to project, there's nothing wrong with that as long as you can demonstrate that you have a high renewal rate between those things. And so I'm in general, I do like having kind of project based stuff because typically you can price two to three times higher than you can for a subscription.

17:30And so you have usually way better cash flow because people are willing to commit to a certain amount for this period of time versus, you know, this forever, which is what a subscription feels like, even though realistically we know that it's not that, that, that case. So you want to get to a hundred million dollar subscription business. you have a$1.3 million non-substration business. I would say, I don't think the limit to your business is that. So we'd have to dive a level deeper and say like, what's stopping you from getting to 10 million with your current model? Real quick, guys, I have a special, special gift for you for being loyal listeners of the podcast.

18:08Layla and I spent probably an entire quarter putting together our Scaling a Roadmap. It's breaking scaling into 10 stages and across all eight functions of the business. So you've got marketing, you've got sales, you've got product, you've got customer success, you've got IT, you've got recruiting, you've got HR, you've got finance. And we show the problems that emerge at every level of scale and how to graduate to the next level. It's all free and you can get it personalized to you. So it's about 30-ish pages for each of the stages. Once you enter the questions, it will tell you exactly where you're at and what you need to do to grow.

18:41It's about 14 hours of stuff, but it's narrowed down so that you only have to watch the part that's relevant to you, which will probably be about 90 minutes. And so if that's at all interesting, you can go to acquisition.com forward slash roadmap. R-O-A-D map. Roadmap. Yes, we are now aiming to smaller companies on the subscription base. Yeah. And the whales are staying the same, basically. So that's our strategy to like this year, we're aiming for a 40 % of subscription, subscription, a base model from all the revenue. 40. 40%. Yes. Is subscription already? That's the goal. No, it's the aim of this year.

19:24Okay. Got it. And you said you have whales. Yes. And you have small companies. Smaller. Yes. What percentage of companies are in either bucket revenue wise? Nowadays, it's like 80, 20. So the whales are almost everyone. Just do more whales. Okay. I'm serious. So how do you get whales? We have an outbound sales team. Okay. And we are pretty good at it. So we get into a whale and then sell it to more departments. Yeah, of course. So what's the limiter on your outbound team? People. Okay. HR. HR is a well. So recruiting. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So if you had twice the outbound team you have now with equal skill, would your business double?

20:15Yes. Great. So what stops you from doing that? You don't have a recruiter? Yes, but it doesn't work. Okay. So you have a bad recruiter. Yes. Okay. So hopefully this like line of reasoning was fun for everyone, but that's what we have to work on. Like, you know, like the rest of the stuff that we talked about, it's basically irrelevant and you need to go get another recruiter who's good and can get you outbound guys. basically and you will continue like my advice is to continue increasing the outbound team until you can't handle the sales anymore okay that's it and whales and whales fundamentally like it's not uncommon for them to be work on projects for just extend the terms so if you if you sign you know they're currently doing six-month engagements try go for 12 or 18-month engagements okay that make sense yes yeah and that's that that's just as valuable like if you have like a five-year contract with a fortune 500 it's recurring as far as like an investor would be concerned it's the same thing make sense yes all right hopefully it's simpler hey my name is joshua i'm actually a chiropractor as well like chris i have a great product that i would love to tell you about self-cracking yeah yeah yeah that's funny yeah yeah so me and my wife we run a family chiropractic center in the uk cool and our current revenue is around 750 we'd like to get it to 2.3 perfect the model and then scale okay this is what is currently my predicament so we averaged 48 new clients per month last year consistently from two main two main channels referral and facebook meta okay what was this what so it's 35 referrals 65 okay yeah that's got it yeah and excuse me sorry i'm a bit nervous thanks you're 35 65 referral versus meta you did 48 customers per month yeah the issue that you have 750 you want to get to 2.3 yeah so my question and i think what's stopping me is determining where i should be focusing because we get great results for clients like they get but you know even if they have an amazing result like a lot of those clients leave which is fine and then they come back when they need us it's terrible yeah and i'd love to have more clients to stay with us longer term from like a membership perspective and when i look to our churn retention rates our gross retention rate is 47 and then our our net retention rate is 74%.

22:41So once we've done expansions, upsells, and everything else, it brings it up. But we still lose a lot of, we leave a lot of money on the table on the, because we're losing. You lose half your customers. Correct. But you keep a little bit more revenue. So you're talking revenue retention versus Yeah. So I'm like, which one do I focus on? Do we expand the marketing and just keep pumping the machine? Because I literally feel like you, I've got to a stage in my business where I'm still in the clinic, still serving patients. I love my clients. yeah but like you know even if they've had an amazing change in their life like it's like you with the weight loss like i've got to the point now where i'm like man like this doesn't excite me anymore like i know i can help serve more people if i can just become more of the owner rather than the operator i've stepped my shifts down from you know five days a week to like two now and if you made more money you'd definitely be happier so not necessarily that was a joke okay so you have a location you're doing 750 what does it cost to open a location we own the building well outside of real estate what's the cost to outfit the location oh outfit it so we so we're pretty lean like we outfitted our current one that was a hundred thousand okay got it what's profit we kind of keep it we've kept it low the last few years but we yeah it's like it's like 13 okay 750 yeah so you need to fix that yeah okay so it sounds like there's a lot of like you know owner's earnings and stuff well what's sd so seller discretionary so what do you make plus the profit of the business so me and my wife we draw 100k uh-huh each no total yeah you have 13 on 75 so another 100 so 200k on 750 yeah okay got it so whatever that's 20 30 30 ish margins okay so you want to get to 2.3 why 2.3 because this is what we worked up for our build like our practice we could if we were at capacity okay so that location can do 2.3 million okay so the issue is we have to solve retaining customers now if you keep 50 of customers like if let's say you lose half your customers you're one but then after that they stay forever that's fine we just have it's like in next year you'll double if that isn't the case then and you lose half of those customers the next year and then half of those the next year kind of thing i would see what we could do to improve that that being said you're in a business that traditionally is marketing heavy it's kind of like weight loss because like people get fixed and then they're like yeah deuces so the the strategy that i've seen that has worked really well in the chiro space is basically going significantly higher ticket number one and number two niching down in terms of the different problems you solve.

25:21So this is like neuropathy, diabetes stuff, those types of like kind of segments and having more targeted advertising for those avatars and selling significantly higher price packages. And that's typically how those businesses will get to like a few hundred thousand dollars a month just with one like very small store. And so typically that model is a, you run ads for some sort of free workshop, free dinners, free whatever. Pretty much how we built our business. Okay. okay like because we really then what's the ticket price that you're charging it's different based on the well you've shown 50 customers a month and you're doing 60k so the the average is around like it depends because every plan is different for the client so we don't just give like a here's your plan no i know but if i just did simple math i'd say 60 000 a month 15 new customers average customer is 1200 bucks yeah okay so it's not the same model because i'm talking ten thousand dollars right does that make sense yeah more yeah so i think you have to get niched down in terms of so like if you're doing all those things i think you probably need to add a zero to your price tag we're already the most premium in our like area like well then it won't change you'll still be the most premium okay and which one would you focus on them would you just focus on like just filling the front end or would you try and fix because you talked about like fix the chair and like get it to less than three like or would you double down on both like would that be well if you keep half your customers you're pretty close to three so again you're pretty close to three if you keep half your customers right when we track it it varies between three and seven on the depending on the month i mean are there things that you could do to improve it sure i think you have more of a model issue okay like you obviously get a car customers and you're doing a decent enough job keeping them if we need to improve how much money this thing makes it's either a pricing thing basically it's an offer and pricing thing is that you need to charge more so that you can make more money.

27:11And then once you have the cashflow, then the expansion becomes pretty straightforward. That goes for basically everyone. Like a lot of times it's like, you know, we're doing 20 % and you have what I would consider is like a normal business. It makes money. We work hard, but there's no, like, you never feel like you really can like get ahead. It's usually because there's some significant hole in the business and you're decent at both sides and i think that the issue is that you just need to be making way more money okay which is i think you need to add more do you sell physical products and consumables not really do you sell like braces and orthotics in a care plan it will be based on like yeah we do adjustments massage it might be like traction whatever yeah so the the key is There's two models that have worked really well.

27:58One is where you basically upsell them some sort of machine that they can take home and do other work. And there's a big markup on that. And the other is supplements. Because you can sell a year's worth of supplements or six months worth of supplements up front, make a really good bit there. And it doesn't increase your operational drag at all. Because you just make the sale, give them the product. Does that make sense? Yeah. That's what I would add in to justify the higher price so that you could make more money per customer, which will then make you more money overall, which then fixes the model, which then allows you to scale.

28:30Gotcha. That makes sense? Yeah, cool. Thank you. Rock and roll. All right. Thank you. Hey, Alex. My name is Nacho and we sell surf coaching to intermediate and advanced surfers. Okay. We do 700 a year and we'll like to be 5 million. Okay. And what's stopping us right now, it's basically our lifetime value to CAC, it's 3 to 1. but that's because we change our program our online program we change it from two months to yearly okay so we can raise the price yeah exactly and also have a longer time window so hopefully exactly yeah so my question is how would you go about the the ascension process once they finish the year or even do it before they end the year yeah well it's definitely not at the end of the year.

29:21So you have four. So there's four places that you can do Ascension upsells. I'll walk through these. Okay. So these are kind of the spaces that you can do the upsells. And this is the order for your business. If you already sell something expensive up front, which I'm guessing is now the annual, then you can ignore. Well, I mean, honestly, no, I'm going to say it. So you can immediately upsell people. Hey, now that you bought this thing, do you want to get something else? That's if you want fries with your Coke. So that's that type of upsell. Now, if that's not the nature of the upsell that you have, then this is where you'd begin offering it.

29:57So you can ignore the first one and the other four will apply. Okay. So 24 to 48 hours, that's probably when you have some sort of onboarding call, right? Boarding. There you go. And so the best upsell that you can tag with this is more help with that thing you just bought. And so either that more help or better help. So that would be like a higher qualified coach. This is a master's level three coach. He only coaches people who are whatever. And so if you want, it sounds like you might be a good fit for that. Do you want me to set you up with a call there? Right? So you can immediately ascend people who just bought.

30:26Number one, that'll also help you offset CAC, bring up cash forward. The next one is when you have some sort of milestone. So they get up on their board for the first time, or they do their first flip or whatever, you know, whatever big milestone that somebody might have, you know, within the first 30 or 60 days of being inside of your thing, right? At that point, you say, hey, we'd love to hop on a call. Let's see what else we can do to help you like, you know, capitalize on the momentum. And that's when you say, cool, let's take this next level. So milestone, you know, it's a milestone for them.

30:52You're saying let's capitalize on the momentum. Let's keep the party going. The halfway point is what we position as a feedback meeting, which is like, hey, we want to check in. We want to make sure that things are going all right. And the nice thing with the feedback meeting is that you have one of two options. So they're unhappy or they're happy. Here's the cool part. if you're unhappy then it probably means that you need more help from us so you should buy our other thing that has more help than the thing that you have if you're happy then if you like that you're going to love this seriously and then finally here what's this last chance so this is going to be the smallest percentage of sales and so for many of you right now this is where you try to do your ascensions and the reason that you're not getting as many as you want is because you're waiting till here.

31:39You have to like, that is literally the last chance you've already lost most people. So you want to, you want, so there's these, these buying windows that occur for a customer and you want to present your offers at the point of greatest deprivation, not value. I'll say it again. You want to present your offers at the point of greatest deprivation, not the point of greatest satisfaction. So if I walk into a restaurant and I'm starving and I say, I want a steak. I eat the steak. Waiter comes back and they're like, how's the steak? I'm like, oh, it was delicious. Thank you so much. They're like, great.

32:10You want another steak? I'm like, no, no, I'm good. They're like, oh, you don't like the steak? And they're like, no, I love the steak. It was great. And they're like, why don't you have another steak? You're like, I'm good. I'm satisfied. I'm fine. And they're like, well, then why don't you, you don't like my restaurant? What's wrong with you? Right? And all of a sudden it just seems weird. That's where we get these weird sales conversations. But if I wanted to sell two steaks, when the person walks in the door. I'm like, are you starving? They're like, dude, I'm famished. I'm like, cool. You want two steaks?