Grief Treatment and the Robot Games!

0:01Alice Fraser: We are the glossy pullout section for the audio newspaper for a visual world and per our filing a science and technology podcast judgment pending in a court of law which court and under what law you need not know that is not knowledge for such as you our listener. So welcome to join us here today. Our first guest has been described by the Royal Society as a promising young man and the buyer of the Royal Society's insurance company as a young man who has broken a lot of promises. He was raised during a barn raising instead of a barn by accident. He can identify any bird by the sound of its regrets.

0:34Alice Fraser: He is currently under observation for blasphemy by three separate competing popes. He is Tom Neenan. Hello. Yes, thank you for joining me. Is this one of the first times that we exist in a world where there can be more than one pope simultaneously? I believe so. I think there's still at least an ex-pope still knocking around, which is still exciting. So, yes, all of that is true. Yeah, I love I love a multi-pope situation. It just feels like it gives you options. This is the market, you know, market demand increases performance of popes. It's a bachelor for popes. Love it. Love it. If it's a pope monopoly, it's not fair.

1:11God is the one who gets to choose and all the rest of them have to turn up with their shiniest red shoes.

1:17Alice Fraser: And then if they don't become pope, they have to click their shoes together and wish to go home. And then God will send a cyclone. Our second guest arrives as she always does in forefront of an ocean wave of her own making. She once stared into the void and the void blinked. She holds the world record for holding a world record, a trophy she stole from the guy who'd bred the biggest cannibal slug and refused to return. Somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains, a retreat of silent monastics keep her opinions in a jar to consult before their weekly death matches. She is Tiff Stevenson. Welcome. hello thank you at last someone who's introduced me as i wish to be introduced i'm sick and tired of these you'll have seen her on mock the week and heard her on the bugle yeah i don't know i feel like the telling me where i'll have seen you is is you know that's presumptuous at best it's pointless and my jar of opinions is very full nice some might say overflowing.

2:17I don't know what the equation of blue balls for opinions is, but I've got that.

2:23Alice Fraser: We are opening this week's gargle with sad news, which is the death of Dolly Parton. I know it's a science and technology podcast, but if those boobs weren't science, I don't know what counts. In light of current working conditions, if you are a union negotiator, you could do worse than an anchoring tactic that begins with nine to five. Remember the good old days when working nine to five felt like exploitation. What a treat. Yeah, I feel very sad about it because not only was she a musical genius and apparently an extremely nice person on every front, when my niece was born in Peckham Rye seven years ago, she got a free book from Dolly Parton.

3:07Alice Fraser: um isn't that amazing in london an australian kid born in london and dolly putton was like you might like reading well i saw i think it was courtney love who described her as the greatest american and you're like yeah like all the ideals of what you want if you you put them together in a perfect american dolly is it and she's just timeless and she cuts across the political divide and culture wars and just lands in the intersection of pure. And you can't ever, you know, like from one big blonde, big blue, I can't even say it, big blue blonde icon to another. The only article I didn't appreciate was I saw something, it might have been the New York Times, who said she was perhaps best known for her outsized bosom and gaudy outfits.

3:53And I'm like, no, no, babe. You don't get to override that with a skill. Also, she knew what she was doing. You're never going to have the joke over Dolly, should I say. you know, it's, they once said to her, there's rumors that you've had your ribs removed because your waist is so tiny. And she went, oh, no, no. It's just that nothing grows in the shade. I was like, you're not going to get the joke over Dolly. Dolly's going to have the joke. And that's why we loved her. It was just like, she's a genius, but pure and kind hearted and put a lot of good into the world. And, you know, if you're going to have a hero, that's the kind of hero, if you are going to do celebrity worship, make it around someone who's who's contributed as much as she has well yeah and i mean i think

4:35Alice Fraser: you know the the way that she performed drag of herself was like simultaneously satire on expectations about women's bodies and also like just showing this like desperate vulnerability she was succumbing to these pressures that we all feel about how we ought to appear in this like cartoonish idea of womanhood and so she was like it was it was really inviting because we're all like, yeah, you do feel like that. You do wish you'd look like that. And she did look like that, but in the way that we all know that nobody looks like that. I thought it was very smart. She was a smart lady. You said that obviously this isn't sort of appropriate for a science and technology podcast, but lest we forget two things she did.

5:14One, she helped fund one of the vaccines during COVID. So if that isn't science, I don't know what is. She also wrote Jolene on the same night that she wrote, I will always love you. So she must have found a way of bending the space-time continuum to fit at least 30 years into one night in order to, because no one has that level of genius in one night. So clearly something was going on there where she like had Groundhog Day to herself or something to create two perfect songs. So yeah, she was science all the way through.

5:44Alice Fraser: Also the first cloned sheep named after Dolly Parton. Yes. Because it was cloned from a memory cell. Is that right? Yeah. Did you have to dig to the back of your memories to grab that? Yeah, that just popped out of my, like, 2000s brain. I was like, there's a fact. Hello.

6:06Alice Fraser: Our next story is thematically linked in that it is the new trend for grief-based exercise or emotion-based exercise. There are now workouts for grief, rage, anxiety, rage cycling sessions, anxiety, yoga, and fitness initiatives that meld sort of therapeutic emotion with the exercise. And apparently they are going off, particularly in the Americas. Tom Neenan, you enjoy doing bicep curls as self-medication against anxiety. Can you unpack this story for us? Yeah, so yeah, sort of fitting for a weird time with some weird emotions flying around, that being both the death of Dirty Potton and the fringe.

6:54We are the end of the fringe where some of us are right now. It's yeah. So apparently there are these that they've developed these different kind of very specific kind of tailored exercise routines for various emotions and things. I mean, the headline was that they've developed one for unbearable grief, which is a big word, which is a lot to deal with. Here's my little take, which is that I think exercise is always, you know, it floods your body with a lot of, you know, a lot of very positive chemicals that do help. It's never doing the exercise, which is the problem. It is getting the kit on and going outside, which is the thing.

7:39Being halfway through a run is fine, but waking up and doing a run is impossible at the best of times, never mind around unbearable grief. So while I think it's probably good advice, it might be one of those sort of pieces of advice where it's easier to sort of show it works on paper than to actually kind of initiate it in practice, if that makes sense. But nevertheless, you know, I do think it's promising and I guess it's a way of kind of healthily medicating yourself out of some negative emotions. but like there's a lot of science that I think works kind of on paper I'm not going to tell someone who's just lost their entire family in a you know in some awful tornado that that the only solution is to go for a jog I am gonna I'm gonna sort of let them find their way out of it of getting abs in this difficult time exactly yeah so I think it is it's one of those I think if you can get it to work for you, that's brilliant.

8:40But also, hey, we all process emotions in different ways. So maybe also get time. Time is the best healer. And then exercise is the second best.

8:51Alice Fraser: Time under load, more like. Nice. Yeah, I watch jocks on YouTube sometimes to decompress. Do you even bench, Alice? That's my question. uh yeah yeah i mean time under load is also my is also my drag name

9:15Alice Fraser: uh tiff have you have you used exercise to express or uh exude emotions i've outsourced my emotion to uh chat gpt that's me no i i i read the article and i think the unbearable grief there were some people talking about losing children. And it was a woman who was like exactly what Tom was saying, kind of going, none of this is going to work for me. I don't want to meet up with a group. I don't want to do any of this. And then found someone locally who was, I think she was, was an athlete who was a runner who'd also lost a child. And then they went for a run and then they built this group. And the group is called Emotion.

9:58And it took me six reading of the article to realize that was, emotion because they separated the e they tricked me say it out loud um but um but yeah everyone every single person who sort of joined the group had resisted the idea it's like with depression you know that just getting out of the house and moving your body will make you feel better but yet there's such a there's such a resistance to doing it um and yet it works every time so you can do it in the five stages if you want with exercise for grief you can like you can start with denial so that's um that would be a bit of delusion like i don't need to go to the gym followed by a steak sandwich that's the first stage uh the second stage is is is anger so punching things is always good like a giant inflatable trump you can work on that with whatever you want uh bargaining that's where as tom briefly mentioned you get into the gym outfit you maybe take a selfie in the gym outfit but you don't go i do find this phase is very good for getting a script written um uh you know like i will do everything i can to avoid going to the gym so to the point that i'll actually sit down and do some work so uh and then there's depression and that's where you realize that you get to the gym you realize that men will hog the weights and the steam room and the sauna and that you've paid 120 pound a month for this and you're probably not going to go that much.

11:27And then the acceptance is you do some squats, you go for a run, you immediately feel better and then you forget about it for a full six months. So that's the five stages of exercise that you can use for your grief or any other emotion you're struggling with.

11:42Alice Fraser: Yeah. I mean, what would you prescribe if someone came to you with an emotion, Tom? An emotion-based workout. Yeah. So if someone comes up to me and they've got ennui, I suggest a walk. Basically, you start at the southernmost tip of the United Kingdom and you just carry on walking to the northernmost tip of Scotland. And by that time, you'll either experience complete ennui and sort of completed it and finished it, or you'll just be so tired you want to sleep. That is my advice. Well, I don't have ennui. I have a toddler, so I have wee on me. What I've been doing is because I only have a limited amount of babysitting and I'm at the fringe, so I don't have time to go to the gym with the babysitting time that I have, is I have been squatting my children and chest pressing them, which turns out to be an incredibly effective workout because they are ruthless personal trainers.

12:42Alice Fraser: and I'm completely incapable of saying no to them when they're like, ha, ha, ha, again, mummy. So I'm going to failure in a lunge with a two-year-old strung around my neck. It's quite fun. Fun. And now it's time for your ads. Your ad section now because you can't be what you can't buy. And this part of the show is brought to you by Gnome Inadequate and naming a species for someone you love. Do you remember how you used to be able to claim a star Well, this is a naming service where you get to immortalise a loved one in the annals of scientific record. We just discovered that there are a fuckton of as-yet-unnamed beetles and shit, and you can call one of them the same name as your aunt.

13:24Alice Fraser: Please note all charismatic vertebrates and floofy cute things were claimed by 1911, so current available nameable stock consists of mainly thousands of pretty indistinguishable from one another beetles, some parasitic wasps, and one thing we haven't got a category for because everyone's just calling it, ah, yuck, what is that thing? That thing could be your mother and I'll let you decide which one between her and it lays its eggs inside living caterpillars. Certificate extra. And this part of the show is brought to you by the Automotive Dealership of Theseus Annual Car Care Plan. Do you have a car?

13:57Alice Fraser: Does your car exist in linear time? If so, at some point, it will at some point go to ship. That's why you need the Automotive Dealership of Theseus Annual Car Care Plan. Our car part, one car part per car port replaced per annual service over 30 years. Never purchase a new vehicle. Automotive dealership of Theseus annual car care plan. Keep driving the same car even when you're the moving part that gets replaced. Oh, it'll always be you and the car. Always. This part of the show is brought to you by the VOIP Pro Protocol, Frozen Frame Edition. Suspends your video call at the precise moment your expression last flattered you and holds it there for the duration of the call, ideal for reviews, funerals, and the meeting about the restructure that you're about to have with Kevin.

14:44Alice Fraser: Audio continues normally, and we take no responsibility for your words whatsoever. And that's your ad section for today. Although it's not the last we're going to be talking about products because Brett Adcock, who is the CEO of a tech company, has just revealed his new business coming out of what he calls stealth mode, which is the hardware service where they're trying to build home butlers has now become a software service where you get paid to do your housework with a camera on your head, thereby training domestic robots into the future. I assume they're paying people out of venture capital money.

15:26Alice Fraser: I assume that there are serious privacy concerns that they have not contemplated in full. I assume that there will be lots of, let's be honest, men who are ordering these head cameras and using them to film themselves joking off. It's called Index. It's called the largest and most diverse robot data set in the world. And I assume they will then sell that on to fucking everyone and their aunt. Tiff Stevenson, you've been replaced by a robot. Can you unpack this story for us and film it while you do it? Yeah. I might send a robot out to do my gigs. Collect that suite. I see that as being the future, actually.

16:10Sending out either my clone or just my robot to gig to an audience of robots. Robots stand up. Maybe that's the future. We're just outsourcing everything else. We're outsourcing our personalities, our, you know, sports, all of it to the robots. It's supposed to be the jobs we go on, but our creativity, everything's going the way of it. So just, like, let them have it at this point. Look, I feel so torn about this because on one hand I think we should have,

16:38Alice Fraser: like, if we're going to have technology to this degree in our lives, then maybe, yeah, it should be vacuum cleaners and stuff that's going to fold your laundry for you, and wouldn't that be a treat? But if the only way through there is via them filming your penis, your personal penis, I don't feel good about that as the route to technological utopia is technological dystopia. It feels like you can't have one without the other. Tom? Michael McEnterabyte. Sorry, I just had to get that out of my head. That was...

17:12Yeah, so this is the main thing, which is I just don't like the idea of any company being in stealth mode. I find the whole thing of like just sort of quietly collecting lots and lots of footage, quietly collecting lots and lots of data, maybe not even fully disclosing, because I guess you don't have to if you're in stealth mode, why you're doing it or what you're up to. I, you know, like if I was in stealth mode as a private citizen and I was collecting data, say, on people, that's, I think, a crime that I would be committing. so I know that obviously it's always one rule for us for corporations but I don't think any company that I guess is an actual registered company should be allowed to be in stealth mode and not really reveal what its ambitions are especially when those ambitions involve filming you in your own house and invading your own privacy I know it is technically if you've asked to have one of these it is with consent but you don't know what you're consenting to so that's quite strange isn't it yeah it is strange and upsetting and if the metaglasses

18:20Alice Fraser: have taught us nothing else it's that people don't turn off their cameras when they stop doing the thing that they are meaning to be filming and that there are probably underpaid men in let's say uh the subcontinent who are having to look at again your personal penis and not having a good time with it yeah um yeah yeah yeah look i yeah i leave my phone torch on There is no way I would remember to turn off my head camera that's helping me fold laundry when I go to do a poo. I'm just saying. It's like on set when you've got, you know, a mic pack. You're always pissing for a crew of like 30 people.

19:03You're very lucky if you remember to like hold in a fart. You're like, oh, yes, I can hear everything. My stomach's humbling. I'm burping. this is this is you're getting the full smorgasbord you're getting the full tiff's demons and experience also there's a clue in this because isn't the man didn't you say the man's name was uh ardcock brett adcock is brett adcock um which does sound like a character from fizz magazine that is he's giving us clues already about what is it what his ambitions are yeah it does sound like normative determinism.

19:38Alice Fraser: It also sounds like a, like a sort of his cheesiest chat up line would be something like, you look happy. Would you like to add cock? That is solid. That is solid. I'm not saying it will work on me, but there's someone it would work on for sure. Now it is time for your reviews. As you know, each week we ask our guests to bring in something to review out of five stars. Tom, Nina, what have you brought in for us? So I'm up at the Fringe, which maybe explains a sort of slightly poorer quality sound that you're experiencing. Apologies for that. But I was reminded of reviews that, you know, reviews happen constantly at the Fringe.

20:20And I was reminded about 10 years ago, there was a play near my venue about the scientist Schrodinger. And what this play was able to do at the end of the month is basically collect all the reviews um every single one of which began with an uh a variation on the line of before i saw this play it was either a one star or a five star play every single reviewer did that and so i would say like in terms of you know i i think criticism is a skill and i certainly you know i think that there are people who do it very well um some not so well But I do think that, yeah, creativity and ingenuity in criticism is always welcome.

21:08So I am going to give I'm going to give criticism three stars because that is the most annoying review that you can give a critic. But yes, I was just reminded about reminded that everyone had the same idea and also then had the gall to probably review other shows and say that they weren't very original. So, yeah, that's my memory.

21:30Alice Fraser: Yes, I think that critics in Edinburgh specifically, because this is the thing, heaps of people are just getting free tickets in return for reviews for various websites, and then you have professional critics. But I think that if you are reviewing, let's say, in any kind of meaningful or serious way, you should have a poster with your face on it posted around among the show posters, and you should have reviews of your reviews by the people who have received the reviews. because I have previously received five-star reviews that I would call three-star written in terms of level of quality.

22:09Alice Fraser: And also, you know, less good reviews where I've been like, yeah, fair cop, you know, that's well written. It's crazy. I don't even know. I've said before, but I believe this to be true. like when British people watch shows we set our expectations like Americans go in excited going this is going to be awesome and British people go this will be shit so um and anything that exceeds that level of expectation is a bonus so I don't think we should have a star rating I think we should use the Bristol stall chart what type of shit you're going to get is it going to be lumpy Is it going to be hard? Are we dealing with liquid tonight?

22:51We're hoping for like a three or four, you know, like a smooth snake. And that's how the reviewing system should be, I think. Get rid of the stars. Yeah. You just want painless. You want quick and painless is like the ideal one beyond there. Yeah. One flush. Lovely. Tiff, what have you brought in to review out of five stars? Well, I'm down on the south coast. So I'd like to review the sea headline is very watery can recommend, especially if you want to salt max, which is a new thing I've invented, which is normally where you eat three packets of crisps in a row, get really swole, but you can just do this in an easy way.

23:35You can just walk into the sea and just absorb that soul, get your salt levels up, get salt maxing. I didn't enjoy, here's some things I didn't enjoy the presence of a man on a jet ski. no one needs to mow the sea and that's what that felt like for the swimmers around it just just feels like a man going along mowing the sea backwards and also there was music that sound could mean a lot of things and when something's going wrong at home the hardest part can be figuring out what the problem actually is at thumbtack you can upload a voice message or a photo and our ai powered search will help diagnose your project plus the pros we know have over 14 million five-star reviews so you can hire with confidence thumbtack we know homes hire the right pro today

24:33playing out of the jet ski so i find that like euro like euro beats like euro club music i was like no this is unfair not in dorset

24:50but here's here's things i did enjoy i did enjoy witnessing a man in his i'm gonna say late 70s early 80s walk out of his house in budgie smugglers across the car park and then just dive straight into the water which was confident and impressive and i'm like that's the life that's what you want you want to get to that point i think when i'm in my 70s uh early 80s i want to walk out of my house and dive into the sea that's what i need that um uh you will need to wear a swimming costume if you've not if you've not been to the sea before and you want to swim in it you have to wear a swimming costume um and if you are a woman people will have opinions on what that should look like and whether you are showing too much or not enough skin and unless you can swim sort of like a victorian with some kind of box-like curtain around you which is my my preference i've got my own private beach overall a positive experience five out of five beach dependent

25:44Alice Fraser: five stars yes i think i think if somebody's in a jet ski playing music you should be allowed to go out with a harpoon not on another jet ski like keep it fair you have to be in the ocean but you should be able to full battleships i think you should be allowed in a battleship to take out a jet ski zero beats pumping out of it oh look like this is the problem i think they are sort of the epitome of something which is that they look like if you were on them they would be so much fun but in order to be on them you need to have like quite serious disregard for anyone else around you've got to have a guy with like questionable tattoos who looks like he doesn't truly understand consent that's normally when you go on holiday and you go on a jet ski i have done a jet ski once i did rent but you go out i've got no problem with it if you go out you just you just need to not hug the shoreline which is what this guy was doing you should go out out out and then you're not in anyone's way and then you can cut up and down and that's maybe he hadn't invented navigation yet and therefore needed to keep the shoreline in sight.

26:53Alice Fraser: That's my big beef with Odysseus. Well, that would have made the Odyssey way more interesting. If he's on a jet ski. Yeah, yeah. Made from his own bones. And instead of a Trojan horse, it's just a massive can of monster that they wheel in as like a treat.

27:17Alice Fraser: now it's time for apparently the thing that's been holding back people who are complaining to councils all along has been uh time and energy uh apparently councils and other places are being flooded with ai complaints uh this is the future that technology has served us there's been a surge in AI complaints to schools, councils, anywhere that has a complaints form, apparently, is just being absolutely bombarded with people who, I guess, were annoyed but not annoyed enough to put any effort in. Tom Neenan, you like a complaint. Can you tell us more about this story? Yeah, I mean, I'm struggling.

28:03I don't like it at all. I'm very much an AI skeptic. But like when they were, you know, when there's things where they say complain to your MP and then they sort of give you a template and they say, here's the template for you to kind of say, here's what you should say in order to complain to your MP about a certain piece of legislation that you might not agree with or something else. Is that not, I mean, my only concern is if there are people behind the complaints and if the complaints actually happens, then absolutely, you know, that I think that is okay. even if people are using AI to do it, because I think maybe not everyone has the wherewithal, the kind of knowledge of what you need to put in an email as a complaint to get a response, because some people might just fire out something just being like, my bins were knocked out or something.

28:50But it doesn't trigger the right words that are probably meant to initiate a response. so i as long as there are people at the end of them i don't mind if it is just like bots are suddenly you know how they tend to like hallucinate if they're hallucinating like late collections of bins and things like that well then that then we're we're already in a dystopia and a council is bogged down fixing problems that don't exist um but if people are using sort of ai to complain to their council on their behalf because of legitimate issues i'm like oh that's okay isn't it but please alice prove me wrong and do so in triplicate um and send it uh also says cc in uh my local mp as well well i think the problem is that the only

29:37Alice Fraser: the cost of doing instead of a one-page complaint uh generating a 27 page complaint with uh references and citations and so on quotations is is basically zero to the user obviously it's larger to the environment and actually to the AI companies who are now basically paying money to their users because they haven't figured out a way to make the models profitable yet. But especially with China keeps on showing up with models that are more or less just as good as the leading US models, but are being offered for free for reasons that are potentially political. And, you know, in terms of who's going to have the global influence over a world that is controlled by AI.

30:20Alice Fraser: But we don't need to get into that because we're talking about science and not politics. And those two things are never connected. But yeah, I think it is basically that people who might otherwise have thought about sending a message and now sending a message, people who might otherwise have sent like handwritten angry note that was four lines long are now showing up with documents and citations. And it reminds me of the promise in the law, which was of the paperless courtroom that everything would be able to be digitally rendered. And instead it meant that what was happening was people were printing out thousands of pages of emails, many of which were duplicates and wheeling them into court on massive trolleys.

31:01Alice Fraser: So it feels like, yes, this AI promising to make less work has in fact made more work for everyone. Tiff. Listen, if we're British, if we're going to democratize one thing, it's going to be complaining. i'm here for it i'm here for it i do i do think it allows people to it opens up access because people get ripped off people get done over and they don't know how to have the recourse and i often feel like it's people with money that are able to afford someone to represent them or represent themselves so i think this is i think this is a really good thing if we could do it with queuing as well if we can work out a way um we could take all that is british um and and combine it into one democratized um i don't know how how do the councils know is it because the letters open dear council i'd like to play a significant role in shaping it is important to note that in today's fast-paced world a testament to shed a light on my bin collection apparently those are the most famous phrases in AI and the word delve.

32:06If the word delve is in there, let's delve into this. It's probably AI written, but I don't mind it. I don't mind, but I still think there are people who will be kept out of it, you know, like, you know, older people who haven't got to embrace the technology yet. Although my mum is watching a lot of those AI fruit soaps. so maybe maybe she'll get around to learning how to just fire it all into chat gpt um you know when she's raging at something on telly i once was on the receiving end of like 10 minutes about a show she didn't like and i was like write them a letter because i have a day to be getting on and that was that wasn't anything that had been done to her that was just some entertainment that she didn't agree with.

32:55She was like, well, baby, I will. She got really annoyed at me. I was like, write my letter. Oh, God. Stop telling me.

33:02Alice Fraser: Remember when fruit soaps were just something that you got at a fancy B &B? Oh, yes. Lush used to do them. Lush, not Lush, not Lush, the body shop. The body shop used to have a fruit soap and it smelt of the fruit and it was shaped in the fruit. And I can't remember if it came on a rope, but it was one of the most exciting things about getting a bit of pocket money. Yeah, tiny, tiny little ones that look like a lemon or like grapes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Flashbacks to fruit soaps. And now they're like weird blueberries with tits trying to like suggestively like. Seduce a banana. Is it fair to say that you can complain to your council using AI about everything apart from lack of water resources and the massive data center that's just been put over your local park.

33:52Those are basically the only things that there's hypocrisy there.

33:56Alice Fraser: That brings us to the end of this week's episode of The Gargle. I'm flipping through the ad section at the back. Tiff Stevenson, have you got anything to plug? I do have things to plug. I am going to be doing a little run of European gigs at the end of this week. So on Saturday, I will be in Rotterdam with my new show at Club Haag. and on Sunday I will be in Luxembourg at Carlitos Comedy Club and Monday I will be in Brussels so if you want details for those you can check them out on my Instagram or just Google Tiff Stevenson in any of those countries and it will pop up a link so Belgium Holland and Luxembourg check those out it's exciting and Tom Neenan where can people find you?

34:40I'm not sure when this comes out but we're nearing the end of the fringe but I would say if you want to find out what I'm up to, probably best to follow me on Instagram, at tpneenan on Instagram, for things like a few people who got in contact about commissions, because my show is about art. But if I'm doing sort of London runs of my shows and things like that, then probably find information there.

35:01Alice Fraser: Wonderful. And you can find me online at patreon.com slash alicefraser. It's a one-stop shop. You can sign up for free in there. It's just a mailing list. If you subscribe for money, you can join my writers meetings, which I run every week, twice a week. If you are wanting to work on anything, and I also run regular salons where we just have a chat about ideas. That's patreon.com slash alicefraser. And otherwise, this is a Bugle podcast, an Alice Fraser production. Your editor is Harry Gordon. Your executive producer is Chris Skinner. I'll talk to you again next time.

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