Who is buying the Palantir chore coat?

0:13Hello, and welcome back to the Glossy podcast. and everyone's hoping it's the sixth and last heat wave over in London. You guys have been pummeled this summer. Yeah. I mean, not like New York has been much better. It's been brutal here too. It's been bad. But I'm glad you're here because this week we are discussing a very fun topic that you and I have talked about a couple of times off air in recent weeks. Why are so many big AI and tech companies doing streetwear drops? Such an odd phenomenon. There's the OpenAI Supply Company, the infamous Palantir Chore Coat, all of which I think have been widely mocked and are kind of outdated looking in some ways.

0:58But you know what I'm talking about, right? Oh, yeah. I've seen the Chore Coat and the hoodies, basketballs, and I think there was a – what was it? Something else. There were some other things that were branded. But yeah, it definitely has divided opinions. And judging by the fact that it has sold through in many of the items, I'm very interested to see who would be actually seen wearing this and not just kind of collecting it to let it gather dust in a cupboard somewhere. It is strange. And I think a lot of these companies, particularly Palantir, but others too, have somewhat loathsome reputations.

1:36And to me, this seems like a clear attempt at kind of reputation laundering. But it also made me question, I mean, exactly as you said, who's actually buying this stuff? Is it just super fans of the companies? Is it targeted at fashion people who maybe aren't as into AI and then this is a way to get them into AI, which I can't imagine working? Very strange phenomenon. But to answer that, I spoke with Chris Eric Thomas, who is a style writer at High Snobiety. He wrote a great piece about this phenomenon a few weeks back, and it was a really good conversation. We touched on what's motivating these companies to drop these collections, who's buying them.

2:13We make some comparisons to tobacco company merch from decades past and how they kind of like use, you know, cartoon advertisements. I don't know if you ever saw there was like an old Flintstones commercial with like Fred Flintstones smoking cigarettes. So you'll hear my conversation with Chris. But before we get into it, I'd love to hear your thoughts, Zofia. Like, why do you think these companies are doing it? And who do you think is the target customer? Yeah, I mean, really interesting conversation. So I'm excited to listen to this one. But I think it's really interesting now that, you know, there's such a culture behind merch from tech companies, because I think, you know, still, even though a lot of these pieces are very kind of design led, and I think there's been some inspirations from like Virgil Abloh, there's a lot of specification around production, like maintaining the right weight for some of the t-shirts in California.

3:07I believe I've seen that on the Palantir site. There's a lot of interest and kind of deep work going into these collections, but essentially they are still merch for tech companies. And I think that when that kind of branding era came about in fashion where you had logos absolutely everywhere, and I think that you showed your allegiance through whatever logo you're wearing, now that has shifted to tech companies. And I think especially as the climate becomes more politicized and a lot of people are worried and concerned around AI, there's all these people who also kind of prophesying that this is like the next coming and it's something that they want absolute devotion to.

3:59So they follow these companies that use these systems and kind of create, you know, the next social order. And they think that, you know, maybe wearing some of their merch is essentially joining up and wearing the uniform, like all of that stuff. I do think it's quite interesting that a lot of it's quite subtle. Like I think we talked about it before, but, you know, Palantir is one in particular, like I would not be able to tell that that is Palantir from a distance. I think some of the other ones are very much more kind of in your face when, you know, everyone recognizes the chat GPT logo, like that's something that I would recognize, you know, on the street.

4:37But yeah, I'm interested to see, you know, who would rather go for something more, more subtle and, you know, not in your face rather than wearing, you know, a hoodie or a cap emblazoned with these logos that, you know, show a very kind of specific allegiance. Yeah, I think comparing it to a logo mania and showing your allegiance is a great point. So like I said, you'll hear me and Chris going quite deep on this topic. And it was a very fascinating conversation. So let's take a listen. I'm very happy that Chris could join us.

5:12It started with the Palantir chore coat. At least that's the first one that I saw. Take on the classic blue French chore coat, but made by and emblazoned with the logo of the mass surveillance tech company, Palantir. But OpenAI wasn't far behind with Supply Company. That's their merch arm, and they do regular streetwear drops. Anthropic had a pop-up last year in New York selling similar clothes. These are companies that, to put it lightly, have very questionable reputations. They have all faced massive criticism for things like their environmental impact, their training data that they've acquired illicitly, and in Palantir's case, helping to create mass surveillance systems and violating civil liberties.

5:49And now they're all doing streetwear, which I find very odd. But to discuss that, I am here with Chris Eric Thomas. Chris is a writer based in Berlin. He's the style writer for High Snobiety, covers style and fashion. And a few weeks ago, Chris wrote a great piece for High Snobiety, which you should all go read. OpenAI's new merch line is proof that tech bros are stuck in 2022 was the title. And reading that is, it was a great piece. And it made me want to invite you on to the Glossy podcast to discuss this topic. So Chris, thank you for being here. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was a fun piece to write.

6:22It's very interesting to have that drop into. I think it actually came into our inbox. And they pitched you? Well, I think it was just a press release, but our team was just collectively like, what is happening here? Like, it's so clearly, you don't even have to like know anything about streetwear to see that it's not cool. Yeah. Well, there's a bunch of things I want to ask you, but that is one of them is like, who is this even for? And who's even, because all of the tech companies who are doing this have said, you know, in various places that the sales are good and people are buying it. And I'm like, but who are these people?

7:01But let's start a little earlier. So you got that press release. Was that the first time you had seen something like this from one of these big AI or tech companies? Or when did you first start to notice this as like a phenomenon? I also saw the Palantir chore coat through Kyle Chayka. He's a staff writer at The New Yorker. He does a newsletter called One Thing. And he wrote about the chore coat. and I kind of registered it. I read the piece and I thought, okay, kind of odd. But I didn't really think much would come of it. And then the OpenAI thing came and I really was like, okay, this is a full-on movement to try and make...

7:44Tech bros have already tried to be cool unsuccessfully for years, but this feels like a new chapter. Absolutely. And using fashion and particularly a specific kind of like early 2020s, like Virgil Abloh streetwear kind of fashion to, to launder their reputations. It's very interesting to me. The first time I heard about it was the Palantir chore coat also. And because I had recently like a year or two ago gotten a legit French, like blue chore coat, which I had always wanted. And I like got one from Paris and I was really excited. And I recently wore it to a bachelor party and all of my friends were like, bro's got the Palantir short code.

8:22And I was like, it's not, it's not Palantir. So it is, it's like, I'm like, I don't want to be associated with it. And I think a lot of people don't, but what's your, what's your initial take? I mean, you already said that it's uncool and I agree, but like, just in general, like what, why do you think they're doing this? And what do you feel like this is, what do you think their goals are? And do you feel like it, it's possible to achieve those goals through what they're doing? I think in kind of a twisted way, they almost, I think, I mean, I don't think they would put it out if they didn't think it was cool.

8:56And as you said, like they, people are buying it. Like I'm pretty sure by now, most of the open AI merch is probably sold out. I know even when I wrote the article, multiple items had sold out like the baseball caps. The thing is like these AI companies through the rise of Elon Musk and Donald Trump and these kinds of big tech people who are... Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel. These people who are cozying up to the government, they kind of exist in a vacuum where they think that they are cool. But it's kind of... I mean, the vacuum has customers, which is nice for them, But it is still not living in the reality that a lot of other people are living in.

9:48Yeah, it's kind of divorced from the context of streetwear, which is like what people wear on the street. Yeah, Palantir said in an article I saw that they have tens of thousands of customers for their merch line and that their sales are on track to double this year from the year before. my producer and I were talking about things like Marlboro or Camel, like cigarette companies making cool like dorm room posters back in the day. And that being sort of a way to get past people's defenses. Fred Flintstone smoking cigarettes like in a commercial, things like that. So like I think tobacco companies to me seems like a more like a pretty close analog from recent history of like companies that were widely criticized and like doing a lot of damage.

10:32but then like using merch and other tactics to kind of, you know, try to sweep that under the rug. Like, do you see any analogs in what other companies are doing or things that have happened in the past? It's funny. I was actually just looking at like Marlboro merch on like secondhand websites because they actually did produce some genuinely nice product, especially like denim. But I think there's a key difference between like an open AI versus like a Marlboro. They're both harmful. But AI companies, by definition, are regurgitating human produced products and they deal directly with creativity.

11:15And when you use AI programs, you're just regurgitating what's already been done. whereas these smoking companies who created merch were kind of trying to make their product seem cool which was you know cancerous cigarettes um but a cigarette wasn't trying to be like a creative tool in a way so this feels a bit more insidious in a different way than like public health um both are equally insidious of course but yeah this this kind of takes on an extra element by being a company that like, by definition, is trying to take jobs away from creatives. Yeah. And on that note, I mean, you wrote in your article that they're stuck in 2022.

12:06And it's interesting that a lot of the criticism of generative AI, as you said, is that you're just regurgitating something that's already been done. Why did you say they're stuck in 2022? like what 2022 what about the what was it about the collection about the products that made you feel that way yeah it 2022 and like this kind of post-covid era was when a lot of streetwear companies kind of smaller ones got their start and a lot of them aren't even around anymore like they're they were such a flash in the pan that it wasn't a thing but in that moment And it was cool to be like a Kith or an Emmy on Dior, for example.

12:52Like this kind of street where aesthetic was at its peak. Supreme was kind of on the way out a little bit. And other companies had kind of taken their place, other fashion brands. and that aesthetic is still aped by quite a few people, but it is also incredibly dated. And I find it ironic that companies that bank on being able to predict the future through AI or kind of be living in the future are still stuck on this very dated 2021 era aesthetic. Yeah, I mean, it's very appropriate. in a way. And I was trying to find the answer to this and I couldn't find any good information. I'm wondering if you know any more about like who who is making it in terms of like, are they hiring fashion people for design?

13:50Palantir has like a head of vibes guy who I read a pretty grading profile of him, but he does not seem to have a fashion background. Like he said, he had to learn it in order to start up this merch line for them. So like, are you aware, like are they hiring like actual designers or are they just like i don't know using ai i guess i'm not aware of them hiring actual designers it really does feel like they are putting in almost like a prompt into their own programs asking for a streetwear aesthetic because even the photo shoots looked so low effort to like slap research onto a t-shirt or like these thinking caps.

14:33It's very like it's kind of low effort in a way that they think is cheeky and funny and ironic, but it just reads as culturally tone deaf. Yeah, and the thinking cap that you mentioned, that was Anthropic, I believe. Yeah. And from their pop-up last year. Yeah, it's interesting. I was going to say, I think their pop-up was also called like anti-slop zone which yeah or zero zero slop zone or something yeah which which you would only name it that if you think you're being funny right and i'm like so you agree that slop exists and that you're like that's kind of what it reads to me and that's and the other thing is like i'm sorry to interrupt but i feel like the another ironic element of this is that their, the branding is also, you know, supply company makes me think of like a, like a Buck Mason type, like we're crafting things that are real.

15:35And I'm like, isn't that the opposite of your whole thing is, is replacing the real with the imagined? Like that's, that feels, I don't know. It feels like it kind of two-faced in that way to me that, that it's sort of like, you are aware that you were creating, you're like contributing to a world in which like craft and human effort is disappearing and being replaced by ai slop and then you're like making this merch line that the whole thing is like it's all like real i don't know that just seems contradictory to me yeah we talk about craft a lot at high society actually because so many brands now are incorporating handcrafted elements whether it be like artisanal weaving or these kinds of things like old fabrics from ancient India.

16:23There's so many ways that people are incorporating handicraft into their clothing lines. Carhartt has a luxury label now. So these AI companies are kind of tapped into what the trend is, but they don't seem able to understand that they're culturally irrelevant. Right. So, I mean, I do give them credit. They do seem like they are marginally aware of the trends of fashion. Like, as you said, with craft. But by definition, an AI company, I mean, not by definition, but like an AI company just, there's no way it's going to be cool to a majority of people. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. And I also think there's a there's like a dead zone for how dated something can look where it's like if it looks really dated, it kind of wraps around to being cool.

17:21Like if it's if it looks like it's from 20 years ago or something like, oh, it's kind of like being, you know, it's it's like embracing the style from an earlier era. But like five years too late is like the worst time to be. It just feels like you missed the boat. Yeah, I guess if they had done something where they had actual humans make their collections look a bit worn and vintage, it might have had some kind of interesting element to it. But it really just, the merch looks like something you would get at a developer conference. Well, I want to ask you also, So moving away from just like these specific kind of odious tech companies, how do you feel about branded streetwear drops in general?

18:12Like I remember years ago, Cheetos doing like a sneaker collection or something. And obviously like Cheetos is I don't think has quite as dark a reputation as like Palantir, for example. But I feel like there's always been something a little weird about like corporate streetwear collections. I mean, what's your take on that phenomenon? I think it can make sense in some ways, but it is sometimes a bit odd to see a McDonald's collaboration with a streetwear company or this kind of thing. I think that trend also ironically had its peak in the mid-early 2020s at the same time that this opening eye collection looks like it's from.

19:00So it seems like they're kind of stuck in this like big branded brain kind of amalgamation of taste. But now fashion has moved on from that. Like streetwear still does big branded clubs, but they are more into working with smaller designers or smaller brands that are more niche that signify cool in a way that like you're not going to get from partnering with Taco Bell. or McDonald's or this kind of thing. And the times that I've seen people who are really stylish and wearing like a really brazen corporate logo, it's often kind of unofficial. Like I remember like Frank Ocean used to wear the PlayStation logo or whatever.

19:46And it's like, I don't think that came from an official PlayStation and Frank Ocean like drop or whatever. It was just like, you know, PlayStation's fun. You know, it's cool logo. I feel like there's an organic element to like wearing a big corporate logo. And then the corporations then see that and they're like, well, we'll just make it official and like make some money off that instead of someone buying a t-shirt from our company Retreat from a thrift store in which we like make no money from it. Yeah, also there was a big boom in people buying merch from like failed banks from the banking crisis, for example, which lends itself a bit of irony.

20:26whereas the OpenAI merch came from what was originally just an internal shop for the employees. And now it is available for everyone to kind of align yourself with these companies. Yeah, I got to say a little bit tempting fate on their part because it's like people are into merch from failed companies that collapsed under their own weight. So we should make merch too. Yeah, it's a little bit funny there. Another thing I want to ask you is just, and I feel like we've touched on it a little bit already, but it seems like people are buying this stuff. Sales are happening, at least according to the companies.

21:08Who is the type of person who wants to wear an OpenAI snapback or an Anthropic or like, you know, the Palantir short coat? I'm trying to imagine the type of guy that is that. And it's like, I'm struggling a little bit to figure out who the demographic is. Who, like, not necessarily who they're targeting, but who's actually buying it. So I don't know if you have any insight on that. I don't know who, I haven't seen anyone out in the wild with one yet. Me neither, yeah. I do feel like there is a subset of the population that is very pro-AI. like has the Google or the Apple like Vision Pro on the airplane, these kinds of subset of people who are really into tech.

21:58And in a way, like I also love tech in certain ways, but they either don't care about the insidious nature of the companies or they just find it semi ironic to wear it. But there is also the people who genuinely wear it and either work for the company, or they might maybe know someone who works there, or they just find the values of the company and the things that they're espousing to be aligned with themselves. Some people really do think these AI companies are the future and aren't the the harm isn't outweighed by the good of them and so I could see that kind of person being like oh I'm gonna wear this research t-shirt or this I'm gonna get the open AI basketball you know yeah no I was thinking kind of the same thing I'm sure there's lots of people who are genuine you know tech accelerationists who love everything that Anthropic and Palantir and everyone is doing and want to support it.

23:06I was wondering how much of the balance is between genuine and ironic. You know, is that a significant amount of sales for them? Obviously, we don't have the numbers. And then also the line between ironic and real. You buy it as a joke, but then you're kind of, actually, it is kind of cool, you know? And then I'm like, then it's working. Then that's exactly what the goal was, right? And you are kind of, if you are buying it ironically and you wear it, you are kind of co-signing their values. Like this is why people wear, this is why Logomania, for example, is so interesting because if you wear a big Gucci logo, you are aligning yourself with that brand.

23:46if you wear an open-eye merch, you're aligning yourself with that brand because now so much of our personality comes from the way we outwardly present ourselves. And so I think that is part of the reason why these AI brands are making merch because it's one thing to use AI like ChatGPT or clawed on your work computer, but no one really knows that you're using it unless you tell people. But if you're wearing their merch, then people know that you're aligning yourself with them, ironically or otherwise. Yeah, you have to make it known. And I wonder if there's a little bit, maybe for some people, wanting to kind of court controversy a little bit, like, oh, you're mad that I'm wearing the Palantir short coat or something like that?

24:39Yeah, it's a bit edgelord. It's a bit edgelord to it. Yeah. Particularly the Palantir one. I think that, I mean, I think all of these companies, there's a lot of very valid criticism of them. I think Palantir in particular feels pretty, it's like, I mean, they would be like wearing a t-shirt of like an arms dealer or something. It's just, it's pretty intense thing to rep. This is a random digression, but I promise this is related. I recently was listening to some music from the musical Rent. And there's a song. I don't know if you ever saw it or listened to any of it. I promise this is related.

25:12There's a song called La Boheme. Or no, sorry, La Vie Boheme, where they're talking about the bohemian life. This is from the late 80s, early 90s, I think. And they're listing all these activities that they do that are part of their alternative urban lifestyle. And it's like doing yoga, drinking beer from a local craft brewery, being vegetarian and like eating like like noodles or whatever. I think all these things that like back then were very not mainstream and that would signal that you're kind of like an artistic alternative counterculture kind of person. And I was listening to it now and I was like, all of this stuff is very basic.

25:51Like this is like yuppie things to do now. and it just is funny to me how something that started as kind of like underground or counterculture over time can just be like not just mainstream but like almost boring and streetwear I wonder if that is going that way I just feel like the streetwear explosion in the last 10 years has been so huge and now you have like the most mainstream of mainstream uh companies kind of cashing in on it. And I'm like, the reason it was cool originally was that giant corporations weren't touching it. You know what I mean? So there's, I feel like that passage is interesting to me.

26:27Do you have any thoughts on the progression of streetwear? I mean, I remember years ago, people telling me that like streetwear is dead. It's becoming very too mainstream, things like that. Do you have any thoughts on like that progression? And is there a way to still engage in sort of a cool or, or like genuine way, even when there's so much like outside interest from like the most uncool companies. Yeah, I think streetwear is such an interesting subset of fashion. Like it's the opposite of high fashion, which is unattainable for most. Like streetwear literally comes from the streets. It comes from black culture.

27:06And so it's ironic that we've gotten to a point now where like an AI company has not only co-opted a dated image of streetwear that was popular in 2021, but it's also co-opted a movement that has roots in Black culture and now has had all those roots almost completely obliterated by being attached to Palantir or OpenAI. I think it's just very interesting to watch the progression. I think streetwear is still very much a thing. I don't think streetwear will ever go away because it's in the name. It comes from the streets. It's very tied to reality. But also the streetwear that a lot of people are seeing isn't just what people are wearing.

28:12It's the big brands co-opting it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. I mean, there's still, I think, a pretty recognizable difference between streetwear and just regular clothes. And there's still, I think, a vibrant community, especially thanks to publications like High Snobiety and writers like yourself who kind of like maintain the, not the walls necessarily, but like the structures of the genre, I guess you'd call it. But yeah, I think it definitely can transform over time. And I mean, one more quick thing we should mention, and then I think we can wrap up, is the other reputation laundering things some of these companies are doing.

28:51I don't know, did you see the OpenAI brand trip from this month? No, I'm scared to know what this is. It was just, they invited a bunch of influencers, like a classic brand trip. They invited a bunch of influencers to a nature retreat outside New York City, and they all like made content. And the content was very boring. And it was like, you know, kind of lifeless, you know, affirmation content of like, I'm using ChatGVT to like follow my creativity or whatever. Much like the clothes, though, massive reaction where people are like, God, these people are such sellouts, you know. And I'm like, who did this convince?

29:26And I had the same, I mean, we already talked about it, but I had the same thought about the OpenAI fashion. I'm like, who is this convincing? Like you said, I think there are people who are already, you know, into these companies and into what they're doing and they want to buy it. There's maybe a little bit of ironic interest of wouldn't it be funny? But I'm like, is there anyone who was like, you know, I wasn't into OpenAI, but now I saw this cool shirt and now I am. You know, I don't know. I don't know if it's possible for it to do that, you know? I think there's at least a few people who might be convinced by an influencer going on a nature retreat with OpenAI.

30:03It is easy to be cynical, but we get so much of our culture now through social media, maybe even most of it. And so seeing maybe your favorite influencer on this branded trip will convince you, oh, AI is not that bad. This person is doing it. This actually happened. Shein invited a bunch of influencers maybe a few years ago to their factories. I think even maybe last year. yeah I think it was pretty recent yeah and the reaction was the same it was like who is this for but at the same time I'm sure it convinced a few people like as much as people rail against AI companies and would not wear their merch I know so many people who use the tools either in bad ways or as actual like research tools these kinds of things I just think the merch itself is a way of trying to almost like there's this term taste washing that Kyle Chayka came up with where tech brands are so desperate to look cool even though they don't need they don't need to like they have so much money they're making so much money or they just have so much money to begin with so like do their chip factories that they don't need to be cool.

31:28So it is interesting that no matter how big a company gets, they still feel this almost sweaty need for validation from people. And I think the same applies to many of the people who run these companies. I can think of several of the executives who radiate desperation. and it's interesting that, I mean, coolness is one of the hardest things to, you can't buy it. You can't make people, you can make people do a lot of things. You can't make them like you or think you're cool necessarily, at least not through brute force and spending a lot of money. But anyway, I think that's all the time we have for this episode.

32:09But Chris, thank you so much for being here and sharing your thoughts. I mean, it's a really interesting topic. And like I said, your piece, I thought was really good on it and I'm glad that you could come in answer some of our questions. Yeah, it's been great. I could talk about weird AI company March drops forever. Well, if there's more in the future, maybe we'll bring you back on and we'll do a part two. Amazing. Thanks for having me. Of course. Thank you, Chris.

32:39And thank you for listening to the Glossy Podcast. Don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen to this, because that helps us out so much. And don't forget to subscribe to the Glossy Podcast to hear interviews with industry insiders, and we can review segments where we break down the news. The new episodes come out every Friday. Until the next time, thanks for listening.