Ambition and the Future of Work (with author Samhita Mukhopadhyay)

24:36You know, both in pop culture, you know like everything from like loving Beyonce right and like Beyonce standing on a stage saying feminist to these products that are marketed to women and the kind of millennial women's market and so I was I was really interested in that and then also yeah I just felt like we were lumping everything together it was like there's toxic bosses that's one thing there's toxic work environments and then there's just like the ethos of the girl boss and you know Sofia Amorosa and what she's doing who like she's moved on you know I mean she's now trans you know young entrepreneurs and she teaches people how to get investment and you know she's still doing the work she's still doing what she kind of believes is you know her bigger mission and so I just found all of that really fascinating and I also I guess I felt this might be controversial to say but I felt I'm excited I don't know empathy but like as a manager I could also understand how easily things can go wrong and I don't think that it's always because you're just some like racist you know what I mean?

25:36Like, I just, it felt like it was more complicated than that. And that's not to say that there weren't, like, most of the kind of cancellations happened with people that come from a really specific cultural background, right? Like, fairly affluent white women who had access to capital, who had the networks to raise money. But also as a manager, like, there are a lot of things that happen in the workplace that are really challenging to manage because we're not trained in how to manage those environments. I write a lot in the book about management and us being more reflective about management. And I really wanted that to be an opportunity to really rethink, like, what does a feminist business actually mean?

26:10Like, what does it actually mean to have something that not just like has women at the top, but like is truly in the way that it's structured, in the way that it's worker centric, that is like truly for the people. What does that look like? And so to me, that was really a jumping off point also to investigate that. FanDuel's got an offer you don't want to miss this NFL season. New customers can bet just $5 and get$300 in bonus bets if you win. That's right. Pick a bet, bet$5, and if it wins, you'll unlock$300 in bonus bets to use all across the app. You can build parlays, bet player props, ride the live lines, whatever your style, FanDuel has you covered.

26:47The NFL season is here. The only question is, are you ready to play? Visit FanDuel.com slash sportsfan to download the FanDuel app today and get started. Must be 21 plus and present in Virginia. First online real money wager only. $5 first deposit required. A bonus issue does not withdrawable. Bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. One thing I thought was so cool is the way that you kind of went into talking about hustle culture also. And what it really left me with was when you mentioned in the book something about how we're, you know, left to kind of be on our devices all day long in the name of our personal branding.

27:33And I really wondered how that affects management also like this idea that, you know, even when you think about, you know, 15 years ago or 10 years ago before social media was something that a CEO would think they needed to do for themselves, whether they're personally branding for, you know, their personal life or whatever, or their CEO life or all these things where they are feeling this constant need to also be in this place that creates like burnout and disillusionment. I mean, I remember I had a friend, a CEO friend of mine where they were going through something with their company and she called me and it's a fairly large company.

28:08And I was like, the first thing you need to do is get offline. Like your algorithm is not the world. Like at best, it is like a very, very niche feedback loop. And like, if you don't get off, you can't manage this situation or these people. But I was thinking about how much kind of mental fatigue and frustration and overwhelm that was causing this person because instead of, I think, back in the day, people would maybe be a CEO and then maybe once a year, if their publicist worked really hard, they'd have a feature in Forbes or Time or whatever. But now that even all of these weeklies or dailies and minute to minute, you know, kind of clickbaity things.

28:53At the end of the day, even the ways in which capitalism structured these work environments, these are like private sector jobs. And there's kind of no private sector people anymore because of social media. And I thought, and I really thought about that for a long time after reading, because I think your chapter about hustle is right after your chapter about girl boss. And I was like, God, it's just so crazy because does the hustle of the personal hustle that actually you take, also had to take a job as a CEO to be depersonalized, right? Like at the end of the day, so that you're like, oh, I'm not, I don't, you know, necessarily maybe own this company, but then also at the same time, culturally, there was this wave of every single person I knew, and especially women wanting to be called a founder as almost a validation point.

29:38Did you ever noticed that? Like, it's like all of a sudden everyone's thing was like, and founder of, and it could have been anything. And it was really interesting to me. And, and, and I, and by the way, I don't, I'm not even meaning it in a negative way. It just was interesting. Cause I was like, wow, that must be overwhelming for every single person I knew to feel that they needed to have ownership and represent something and then have to be in that all day long. And then want to take on management when perhaps they're not even managers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and that's something that I do find fascinating about entrepreneurship in general is like the things that draw people to run a company, you know, whether that be they're very charismatic or they have a really good creative idea or they have developed a product doesn't necessarily mean that they are good managers or that they're a good team or that they're, you know I mean we see this in I mean I think we see this especially in creative industries right someone who's like really good at the creative piece of it and then all of a sudden they're like we're going to give you a team and you know it's like setting them up to fail because they're creative when they work on their own but when it comes with other people they like absolutely don't know how to delegate they don't know how to do many of the things that are kind of required to successfully manage a business and that was one of you know that was one of my conclusions is really thinking about like you know if you want to start a business and you want people there like Like people should be a big part of your priority, like how you manage people, how you talk to them, how you develop those teams.

31:01And I think that is really different than having someone who is a charismatic leader. So they have a big social following, they have a big platform. And then all of a sudden they're like, and now you're going to have a business, right? Now you have to run a business. Well, or you're running a business and then someone tells you you need to have a big platform and a social following and a this. And then all of a sudden it's hard to be people-centered when you're person-centered. and all social media does is really center ourselves. Like I'm sure you know how it feels right now when you're in book mode and you have to be on social media probably 30 times more than you ever are.

31:32And you're just like, oh my God, I'm so sick of myself. I always in that way, right after a book, I'm just like, thank God I can just stop looking at myself. But I never, I guess, thought about that endless secondary work of the personal branding that people put on themselves on top of their day jobs. You know, and I think that's so it's so challenging to find any type of harmony in that. And yeah, absolutely. And then create a harmonious environment for others. Right. And it's largely unpaid labor. Right. I mean, all of the book promotion you're doing, it's like you're not getting paid a per diem to do that.

32:10Right. And and and I mean, the truth is like your platform is giving a lot more marketing than any of the dollars likely that, you know, sorry not to get you in trouble, but, you of us, like how the way that we use our platform is, you know, that really benefits these corporations, right? It benefits whatever creative entity we might be part of. And it's just expected. One of the things that I've really been feeling the last couple of weeks is how much I have personally had to do to make sure that I have a big social media presence and to make sure that the people that I follow have access to the book and the people that I want sharing the book.

32:41I mean, all of those little pieces of labor, like that is unpaid labor. And, you know, and I think that that is part of what's extended our workday. So it's like, you know, last night I'm trying to go to bed and my partner is a TV, former TV producer and he's in bed. And I was like, I forgot I need to make one more video. I like 11 o 'clock at night. And I was like, I'm sorry. We had to like turn all the lights on and like, yeah, it was like terrible. And he's like, okay, okay. You know, and I was like, okay, like I just, I need to make one video for my launch. And he's like, I totally forgot all day, you know?

33:09And that's like, it was like 10 o 'clock at night, you know? And so it's like this third shift. And there's this great book by Jenny O'Dell called How to Do Nothing, where she talks a lot about that, which I think I quote her in my book, where, you know, she really talks about like every minute of our day has become maximized as something that we can do for profit. And so, you know, I do feel for a lot of brand managers that are, you know, running a business and they feel that that is, even though we don't even concretely know how much that actually helps your business. The thing that probably helps your business more is having a really good culture at work, creating a product that people like, making sure people are engaged and feel included in the workplace.

33:45Yet, for whatever reason, because it's right in front of us and we're like kids in a candy store, we're like, oh, I have to be really on social media. And that's the thing that's going to break through. It's really interesting to me to think about these companies that, and you talk about this so much, which is this idea that we have to, you know, scale so quickly and take in so much investment. And then all of a sudden, not only are you not maybe a manager, but then you have 45 other bosses because you have like a board and 30 investors and all these people to answer to. And then you feel like you can't do da, da, da, da, da, da, all because you wanted to grow really quickly.

34:18Even I have friends now raise it. They're raising money. They raise money to think about, and then I'm going to sell this for so much money. And I'm like, gosh, you know, are there any things where people think like, well, I'm just creating a family business. And I hope that it's something that can stay in my family forever. Or I'm creating something because I think it's such an important product that I hope to have a lifelong customer base. Like, you know, and I do think there is something about these like interesting kind of old school products like that, whether it's like stockings or whatever, where they're like, we don't mess with the formula because we know our lady and we're going to just be going to her forever or whatever it is.

34:51And then I think now there is this culture of like everything I build, I'm building to sell. And do you think that is creating this emphasis when met with this, our transparency culture, if we can write on glass ceiling or whatever it is, or we can, you know, you know, it's, it's much easier and there's more pathways for exposure when companies environments are toxic or employers are toxic or all these different. And we have more language, I think, than we have in a really long time that we feel safe and okay to use. But is it, do you think it's also that it's that we're trying to, everything's supposed to be a boom?

35:29Yes, absolutely. And the, like to find the next big gold rush and like, what's the next product that's going to get us. But I also, I mean, that's a really interesting point around like, you know, brands used to have like key products like Oreos or Doritos, right? And that's what you focused on and that's what you made your money on. And now the market has, what is the word for it? It's fractured so much. And so, you know, now there's 17 different types of Oreos, right? Literally. Like every time you go to the store, there's another type of one. You're like, am I even going to like this? Do I like Oreos on their own?

36:00We're fine. Like they didn't need like sprinkle. They're a great cookie on their own. Yeah. Or for me, like my, my greatest company inspiration is Hallmark. I mean, it's still family owned and it just slowly over years and years and years became something more and more and more all while being like, and obviously problematic in its own ways in like the television sense. And I mean, it more of like the greeting card kind of business, but you know, you used to think like, Oh, you know, were you able to foundationally build these things where also people worked there their whole lives and you hope that your employees, because also the thing is, is that if we're building all these companies that we hope to sell, when we think of our own exit, we are subconsciously thinking of all of our employees exits, right?

36:42because and that we leave them and we don't stay with them whereas these kind of old school businesses they always thought about like oh you you'll work here for 50 years and then you'll retire you'll you'll be here for 35 years but if we are hoping to exit all of our companies within 10 years or five years or this or that or whatever so that if we can scale quickly enough where does that leave even the long our long-term care thoughts for our employees at every level and tear. Absolutely. I mean, I do think that is kind of fundamental to the breaking down of the American dream, right? The idea that if you work hard, you know, you get a job and you can pay off your student debt and you can buy a house and you have a retirement plan.

37:24And like those three things are actually just largely not realistic for most young people now, right? Like you will be lucky if you can get a job, if that job lasts for long enough. I mean, this is especially true, I think, in white collar industries and creative industries, right? I mean, look at the state of digital media right now. I mean, it is so hard to find a job or a newsroom that's consistent, that's not having a strategic pivot, that's not having a series of layoffs. And that has created a freneticness. And there were drawbacks to having one job for 50 years, right? Like, there's something exciting about, you know, the ability to work at a startup or the ability to come up with new products or the ability to come up with solutions to problems that we're facing that like living a modern life or creating.

38:03But there's no check and balance to that, right? It's just they get created in, you know, infinitely. And you see this constantly people getting jobs, and then like half of the workforce being laid off, because they realized that the bet that they took was not the right bet, you know, and I think that that has created a sense of instability. And I do think that's where a lot of the frustration is, because, you know, when you're working in an environment like that, when you know that your boss is not invested in you for the long term, you are not invested in that job. But that is when you have like quiet, that's when you quiet quit, because you're like, nobody cares about what I have to say here, nobody cares about what is going to happen to me in the long term.

38:37And that's why I talk so much about Chani's business, right? Chani's business, right? Because they take very seriously that although they're a startup, they are a very employee focused startup. And so they understand, as we all know is true, your workers, your people are your most valuable asset. They are more valuable than anything else, right? And so they invest in them. And I think that that's a model that a lot of people are scared of because the model we understand of capitalism right now is exploitation. You work somebody as much as they are willing to work. They are anxious about work. So they're going to do what they need to do because they got to pay their bills.

39:10And that's a very easy person to get, you know, you know, get them involved in a way that makes them even work against their own self-interest. And so I do think that has to be a little bit of this turn in this moment is it's going to be harder and harder to fill these businesses with willing employees because people are getting really fed up with not being treated well. And the move that needs to come is like, what is a values-based business? Keeping all the creativity, keeping innovation, keeping the ability to start an interesting and cool business, but have it actually be a values-based worker-centric environment.

39:42Yeah. And in that, you have to acknowledge the disparity between the boss and the employees in payment. So it's actually much easier to solve if the person at the top didn't decide they needed to be 150 times more wealthy than like their average employee. Do you know? And I think that something about Chani that is also so, you know, that she wouldn't be able to be employee focused if she was not, was having the belief that she doesn't need to have 20 times the wealth as her employees. You know, you give something up in order to do that. And And that's a really important shift that I think is really hard for people to have because we are so built in our kind of American dream exceptionalism that they're like, well, if I had the idea and the whole world tells me that I should have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

40:36That I think is also the hard part. That's almost like a spiritual shift on top of everything, right? Because you have to let go of so much ego and specialness and maybe your ego and specialness was your drive. So how do you divorce yourself from the drive that like, how do you create a company or a thing that large and then put it down long enough to say, and all these people who weren't there from the beginning and weren't, and all these stories we tell ourselves are deserving of this because these are my values. Yeah, absolutely. And fundamental to that, right, is the idea that, you know, a lot of wealthy people believe that they worked really hard for that wealth and that's why they deserve it, right?

41:13And so that's like part of that disparity is that like we believe that poor people, like it's their fault. Like we don't actually think it's a systemic issue. And that is, I mean, middle class people believe that, right? Like that's not even something that's like endemic to any particular class. And I think that that type of bootstrapism is really easy to then, you know, I mean, I think Amazon is probably one of the most egregious examples because their profits are more than enough to probably pay every single person that lives at that, you know, that works at that company,$80 ,000 a year. No question.

41:44No question. Right. And then some. And, you know, I think that's where this bigger question of like a redistribution of wealth. Obviously, Amazon owns Whole Foods and they recently bought one medical, which is like my medical provider as well. And there was, you know, I had talked to one of the nurses and she was like, yeah, we're trying to organize against this because we're really afraid of what it's going to do to our patients and privacy and all of these questions. But like, nobody cares because no one can beat the kind of money that Amazon brings in and, you know, and to buy these like multi-million dollar businesses.

42:13And so, you know, I think to me, that is the most egregious example of this kind of model of late stage capitalism and exactly the type of example that like we seem to ignore, but then focus on like the wing. And you're like, no, that wasn't great either. But like, Let's talk about these businesses like Uber, like Amazon, all products I use, all products I use because they're convenient and they're affordable. But why are they those things? Right. Like, why? Why is it so why is that like so cheap for me to get to Midtown on an Uber? Because there is an exploited underclass of labor that's allowing that to happen.

42:47And so I do find that like where we put our attention of where exploitation and late stage capitalism is happening is is a little, you know, sometimes it can be a little off kilter because we really need to be thinking about like, what is it that we can do to hold a company like Amazon accountable versus, you know, what our interest is. And I do think that part of that is like, some of these are targets we can reach. And whereas a target like Amazon feels so unreachable. What do you feel like you're learning the most from like the next generation when you have conversations with them around around feminism and capitalism and redesigning workplace structures.

43:24Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I do think that there's a, I think there's lessons to learn from every generation. And so obviously I've had a lot of exposure to Gen Z and like young millennials as a manager, especially at Teen Vogue, where I was, you know, managing much younger people. And, you know, I think one of the things that was so valuable for me that I write about in the book is just the fact that these employees are not actually willing to go above and beyond unless they have a really clear idea of why they're doing it. Whereas for my generation, I, we just felt like you work hard and then later in life you can play hard.

43:55Like it's, you know, you sacrifice everything and that's what it means to, that's the cost of success. And, you know, and that's really the premise of the book is like me finding out that that cost of success actually wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And it didn't get me the success that I would have had hoped it would get me to. They feel very clear on that. They feel like we know we've seen what your generation has been through. And I don't mean boomers. I mean like older millennials and Gen Xers are like, We've seen what you've been through and it's not the success. That's not the life we want.

44:21We want a softer life. We want a different life. But I wouldn't say that they necessarily work less. I think that that is just the media's oldest habit of trashing young people. We just love to trash young people. I wouldn't say that they work any less because they still have to work. They still have to hustle. But they are a little bit more values driven in my experience. And that's statistically true, that they are interested in the impact that their work is making. They want more meaning. They take more ownership of their work. They need a little bit more space to feel empowered and to feel included.

44:48like the traditional kind of top down model of management and leadership does not work. I would say what I think that I think the other side of that is that it's really easy to complain about right now. It's really easy to complain about work and to be miserable about it. And I think, you know, and, you know, post your little like Twitter Marxism memes and be like, I'm a lazy girl or I'm a trad wife or, you know, and, you know, I wouldn't say that's the majority of people. I think that's, again, something that the media loves to focus on. And it's like, come on, There's like four trad wives out there.

45:16They just have like a lot of followers. Like how many of us can really be trad wives? But, you know, what I'm really interested in is like this, this disgruntledness that I think a lot of young employees may feel about the workplace. Like where can that energy go to? Right. Because just complaining about your workplace and just being complacent or resigning yourself to doing a job or quiet quitting, that is actually not the stuff of a meaningful life. That is not going to make impact socially. Right. That's not going to actually move you to a place where you're going to find happiness. And I'm not saying that you necessarily will always find happiness at work, but, you know, there are moments like we all know that if you're miserable at work, you're miserable.

45:51And so where can we put some of that energy? And that's that's what I'm really and that's where I think like elders do have a lot to teach us in terms of workplace organizing, in terms of work life balance, in terms of, you know, what people like Dolores Huerta have done to like, you know, redistribute wealth and to create better working conditions for people. And so and you're starting to see that, right? Like many of, you know, I use the example of Jazz Breezak, who's a Rhodes Scholar, you know, Ivy League graduate, had all of the opportunity, you know, and literally was sold the like, you're doing all this so you don't have to work at a Starbucks and then ended up working at a Starbucks.

46:24but they had become radicalized and, you know, by socialist teaching. And so they helped organize that Starbucks. And to me, that is like exactly where this generation is at and what is possible with this energy, this frustrated energy that so many people I think are feeling right now about the workplace, which is how do we collectively, a union is not realistic in all of these environments. That's just true. You know, it's just true. And, but what are the different things we can do to make our workplaces better? You open the fridge, there's nothing there. So what's it going to be? Greasy pizza?

46:55Sad drive-thru burgers? Dish by Blue Apron is for nights like that. These are the pre-made meals of your dreams. At least 20 grams of protein. No artificial flavors or colors. No chopping. No cleanup. No guilt. Keep the flavor. Ditch the subscription. Get 20 % off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com slash terms for more. How do you think that this relates to our current political landscape? Something I'm so interested in is the absence of young people in government. I feel like the last time there was a lot of really centered energy around this was maybe AOC or someone like that, where you're like, wow, someone who looks unlike the others, who feels that they're kind of ushering in this kind of new generation into the Hill.

47:45Because I do think that the ways in which we're feeling disillusioned in the workplace and this blend of workplace and personal life always being the same thing now in a way, which you also write about because you're always online and it doesn't end and it does melt into the next thing. How do you think that relates to the ways in which we're engaging with politics at every level? Yeah, that is a very good question. So I think, well, I think it's, there's a lot of different ways. So I think, first of all, like what we're seeing with this kind of anti-women's ambition, I think is fully locks into the attack on women's bodily autonomy, right?

48:26Like one of the greatest, you know, legal, you know, milestones for women was the, you know, Roe v. Wade, the decision on Roe v. Wade and the flexibility that gave women to enter the workforce and to have be able to make decisions over their own bodies. And now we're kind of seeing like a full feminist backlash. And that's reflected in government as much as it's reflected in society, culture and in the workplace. I think the other piece of it, you know, I think it's really interesting, and I hadn't really made this connection until you asked the question, is like, why is it just 80-year-olds running against 80-year-olds?

48:57And I do think that that is a metaphor for the way that power has been collected by a few. And just the most basic stuff, lack of mentorship, lack of distribution of resources, lack of building a real ground game, right, for some of these incredible voices. I mean, you look at the state level and you're talking about AOC, you're talking about Jasmine Crockett, you're talking about Jamel Bowen. What is his first name? You know what I'm talking about. You know, you're talking about these incredible, this incredible new crop of young legislators that just do not have the resources to build a ground game the way that, you know, bigger players and, you know, more kind of story politicians are able to.

49:35And to me, that is a type of redistribution of resources, right? Literally, why is it the same people that get the same fundraising that get, you know, and why haven't they been able to successfully mentor? How is there not another person other than Joe Biden to run? Like, how is that even possible? Like, you have all of this incredible group of people. And three generations below at this point. It's a huge gap. And I think that, I think, is really one of the more shocking things to me recently, because I'm like, gosh, where is that? And then, and in a world where there were, there are girl bosses, right?

50:08Like, and I mean that even in the sense of identifying that there, there, we would, you know, call ourselves girls at that point in time, because there was, it was because a lot of them were young, right? You know, we even opened this conversation by saying writing is like an old prune scheme, but you know, this, this idea of, you know, Forbes is 30 under 30 and it was filled with women and, and all of these companies run by guys who have, you know, made a billion dollars before 40 or all these different things so it's rising in certain ways and then women are not you know being taken down in certain ways and there's this like wave and it's just really kind of that you're saying of just this attack on women's rights and and that kind of a whole idea of feminism which is really interesting I think too or like you know and so it's a really interesting time I think to notice where there's no political leadership by younger people and or you know yeah in that national right it's crazy yeah absolutely yeah I mean and you even look at I mean to me I was like the most excited about Stacey Abrams right and you know and the ways also that like I mean Bernie lost so many times and he just ran over and over and over and for whatever reason it's been determined that her career is over she's not a serious contender when you know to me she was one of the most promising candidates of the last couple of years as like a possible next generation of democratic leadership so yeah it's true I mean I do I really do think it's like, you know, and I do think this is part of the backlash, but it is also, you know, the left not having their shit together in terms of, you know.

51:40But do you think some of that is just this fatigue of us feeling, you know, I feel that there is a, there is a kind of political fatigue that most of us have. And I think a lot of that is from this exhaustion in the workplace met with this exhaustion in the personal life. And then the personal branding, whether you have a personal brand or not. I think people think they just need to make sure that they showed their like, you know, dog and kids by the end of the day too. I mean, all these things, you know, of thinking that you have to constantly be concerned with how other people are looking at you or observing your life.

52:14You know, don't you think at some point that was just going to like run into, oh, and I have no energy left for this. So whatever happens to me happens to me. Oh, a hundred percent. And, you know, I think the disaster, the disasters that are constantly being forecast around us, right. Climate disaster, famines around the world, civil wars. I mean, things do not feel hopeful at the moment. It's crushing student debt, inflation, like things do not feel stable right now. And so if you're walking into the job market right now, yeah, you're already coming in with a certain amount of anxiety, you're feeling exhausted, you're trying to navigate all of these different questions, and then you're not sure, like the political representatives do not actually represent the reality of your life.

53:00And so, yes, absolutely. I think that has caused a real disassociation. I think it's to be seen how much statistically that's actually true. I think we often assume that people are feeling a way that they may not be feeling. You know, I think right now everyone's like, oh, the Democrats are definitely going to lose. And I'm like, we don't, it's like too early. Yeah. And again, that's what I'm also like, your group chat's not the world and your algorithm isn't the world and where stay is not the world. But you know, it is interesting that in a time where there was such a rise of like a boss culture that it didn't translate to people wanting political power post that, because there are a lot of young people, girl boss or boy boss or them boss, whomever boss, like who, if you still sold your company, you know, it is interesting to me that there weren't more people kind of running for office after that, but maybe there's also just the burnout fatigue or you're getting to enjoy those years.

53:57Like you thought you would, but you're going to do it at 35 instead of that. No, exactly. 65. Yeah. And people don't necessarily know. I mean, we did see a big upswing of young people running for office post Trump, right? But it's true. A lot of people got exhausted and those young people are now like, you know, they're in their 30s. So, you know, I do think that there, you know, there are moments, but I think those onroads are hard. I mean, you need money, you need access, you need relationships. It's really hard to run for office. And so, you know, I think that, you know, there's obviously incredible organizations that are trying to change that, but it's also not sexy.

54:31Like people are like, who are these people? They're not doing a good job selling it. Civic engagement is not sexy. It's much sexier to be an Instagram influencer. It's true. I'm dead. Well, I want to thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. I loved your book and I hope everyone will read it because it's really funny too. And it teaches you so much and it gives you so many things to really sit back and kind of think about your own life and your friends' lives. And it is very hopeful. So I want to thank you for writing a hopeful book at a time that doesn't feel so hopeful because while you're able to point out these kind of issues and problems or ways in which we've, you know, been, you know, women who have been victim of being ripped apart at such an unfair level for trying to run these businesses.

55:24And at the end of the day, it, you know, but I, I think that when you are able to really alchemize those kinds of experiences and and help us contextualize them in such a beautiful way. It does kind of give us hope and it makes us wanna think about how we can make all of our environments better. So I wanna thank you so much. I love this book. Thank you. I really appreciate you engaging with it and yeah, all your support. Thank you.

55:59That's it for today's episode. I really hope you'll pick up a copy of The Myth of Making It. We'll see you next week. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening to the Goop Podcast.