Brad & Gwyneth: The Truth About Stepparenting

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2:09When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast.

2:47bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers. Here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Goop Podcast. This is Gwyneth Paltrow. A couple of weeks ago, I did kind of a solo format, just some musings on transitions. And I was very moved by how many of you reached out to share that it meant a lot to you. It was kind of a test. We weren't sure how it was going to go. But it made me think potentially there were some more of these musings that might be helpful.

3:36The one today, you know, I've been thinking about family a lot, and I have a special family, which is a blended family. And it's another subject that many, many people have talked to me about. How does one step-parent? There's not a lot of literature. It's a little bit of a desert, evidenced by the fact that I made a ton of mistakes as a stepmother looking back. and if I could, I think I would have done things differently. And so instead of doing a solo pod, I pulled in my husband, Brad, my co-parent, my step-parent through thick and thin. And, you know, it's kind of a tender and layered topic.

4:23There's so much love and there's friction and sadness and guilt and amazing growth and can be very challenging and also very beautiful. So Brad is joining me today. I hope that for any of you that this is useful or applicable, I hope that you find it so.

4:48I thought I would rope in my husband, Brad Falchuk, who's my partner in step-parenting or on the other side of the line in step-parenting. Hello. Because I thought it would, I don't know, make it more interesting and robust and bring it to life more. I agree. So I think the reason why people are so interested in this subject, those to whom it impacts and affects, is because it's actually a pretty tricky arena. And I think it requires a great deal of, in the adult, of the adult, it requires a great deal of accountability, vulnerability, understanding your triggers. And nothing quite seems to trigger somebody, especially women, like stepmothers, I think.

5:54Well, it's the mythological, the stepmother. Right, the evil stepmother. What do you think that's about? Why do I think it triggers, why it can be triggering for women or why the evil stepmother mythology exists? Yeah, why does that archetype or mythology exist? Let's start with that. Hmm. Let me think about it.

6:20I think that it's a mythology because, slash a cliche, because it's actually hilarious how easy it is to fall into that trap. What do you mean? Meaning, okay, we're talking about stepmothers right now, right? So obviously in an ideal world, the relationship that you had your kids in works out and your kids never have to experience divorce or blending families or anything like that. But a lot of times that's not the case. And so you're coming into a situation where, you know, I'll make it personal, right? Like I came into the dynamic with you. You had two kids. I had two kids. And I think what seems to happen every time is like the dad is kind of in the middle, right?

7:23It's like the kids are having a hard time understanding, adjusting. They don't want to let go of the family dynamic they had. And the dad is kind of in the middle, right? Like trying to sort of appease both and play both sides. and you know the the woman is like hey you know your kids are having a hard time and there's this there it's very easy to take it personally right it's like i think for women they they come in obviously wanting harmony and good intentions and they you know it's like the dream that it all is like the brady bunch and it blends really well but the truth is i think the only place to kind of act out is against the stepmother, right?

8:10Because they don't want to push the dad away. Well, I mean, or they do. I mean, I think it's, or not, you know, maybe push away is the wrong word. I just think that, you know, that what are the roles of the mother and father in the family, right? And the family now exists. There's now multiple families that exist, right? There's the family that exists with the mother and father who are the birth parents. There's a family now that exists with the mother and father in the family who are now step-parents. And you're trying to create what are the rules of this new family? What is the energy of this new family?

8:52What are the dynamics? All these things. And it's new, right? Because these kids have all grown up in different dynamics, complicated ones. And ones, if a divorce happened, it means it wasn't a perfect dynamic. But it was familiar and it was designed by the two parents who were responsible for those kids. And so now you have this brand new one that the parents don't know what it is yet. Right. Because they're also in a relationship. They're trying to figure out exactly what their relationship is at the same time. because, I mean, obviously that's gone on for hopefully long enough that you have a good idea, but, you know, what is a dad in this family?

9:32What is a mom in this family? And so the kids are, you know, forcing you to really make some choices about that. And that's hard because really what worked, I think, after divorce is, I think what probably really everybody got used to was what it was like to be just one parent with two kids. Right. Right. So that family really was cooking, right? Right. Now you've now worked through the pain of whatever the divorce was and living separately and all that. And now you've got a system going. You're like, hey, dad with two kids, this is working. We're good. We got a house. We're happy. We got our rooms.

10:14Mom with two kids, this is working. We're great. And now it's like, actually, actually, that's not what we're doing anymore. Actually, we're going to throw in another adult that's not your mom or that's not your dad, but is kind of there to be your mom or your dad in this family dynamic. And it's, of course, a kid would be resistant to that and push back. It's that they're losing something or they're threatening. It's a threat that they're losing something. Yeah, I remember. I remember that. But why do you think that, again, where does the evil stepmother come from out of that, that you just talked about, like that archetype?

10:54I don't know. I mean, I think it comes from what the mother means archetypally, right, in a family. That's what it means. So now you have a new dynamic that's there. And whoever the mother is, you know, the mother is sort of, I mean, how would you describe what the archetype of being a mother is? You would know better than anybody. I think, you know, to be maternal is to kind of embody, like, I always think about it. And actually, it was your kids who really helped me define this for myself, you know? I think, and it's funny, when I look back, it was definitely, we, like, traversed through some really rough, rough things.

11:42and I feel like when, and I think we should also touch on this at some point, like what the lessons are that you learn from your stepchildren because they've been really profound for me. And one of my most profound lessons that I learned from my relationship with your daughter, which is now so fantastic, is that I think there was a testing going on. You know, she was testing me all the time to see at what point I would reject her, right? And at some point I decided, like, I just need to be exactly that, the essence of maternal. Without opinions, without words, without corrections, like what does it mean to embody the essence of the maternal?

12:31And I really landed on this kind of image or metaphor of the sun. You know, the sun is incredibly warm. and casting off light and sunshine, ray of light, and doesn't need anything back in order to be it. It just gives off. It just emanates. And that's what I thought Izzy needed from me, right? I was just going to be that presence for her, always loving and forgiving in the face of, you know, if she acted up and show her that ultimately I was so there for her that she would not question my intentions or think that I was there to take you away from her. And do you think that the evil stepmother dynamic is more likely to be a threat to a daughter than it is to a son?

13:37I think so. And I do think it's what's interesting is that the and I found myself falling into this. It's like you could say ostensibly like this dynamic gets triggered by the child who is resentful or scared or any normal set of feelings that come around this idea that they're going to lose their dad or their relationship with their dad is going to change. and so they they push back they act out they're demonstrative in some way like behaviorally that's creates friction right that's the point of it and i think what also co-creates the dynamic is the woman or the mother or me and i fell into this trap a couple of times of being triggered by a child, right?

14:26Like it hits at something so core and so primal, which I think is like probably specific to each person, right? But to me, like, am I lovable? Am I accepted too, right? It's like my core stuff gets challenged by the child's behavior, right? And so I think like Like a lot of times the woman can sort of co-create that dynamic by not sort of aspiring to. I mean, it's interesting because it's like I've never had a clear opportunity to like ascend to my highest self more than in my role as a stepmother. Because? Because I think it required like a mastery over my own impulses, my own damage, you know, my own weaknesses, my own, my ego, all the things.

15:32You know, it was really like I had to talk to myself. I had to like actively remind myself to be the adult at all times. And there were like a few moments that were really, really hard.

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17:00Do you think that another thing that makes it harder is that you're trying to do all that stuff in a space where you're not sure if you have full rights. Correct. You're also trying to be respectful, to know that there is another parent who is not in this house who you want to respect and you want to be deferential to. And so you don't know how much of this can I embody, and you start figuring it out. But I think for a while it can be very restrictive, that thought. You don't have jurisdiction. right? You don't think you do. Right. You don't think you do, or you don't want to step on toes and you actually think that's going to make it worse.

17:44You think that if you assert in my case, anyway, cause I don't want to make generalizations, but I thought in my case, like if I assert my boundaries or my expectations around manners or anything like that, it will exacerbate the situation, right? It'll be, it'll be inflammatory. It will cause more pain. You know, it will upset the other parent like it's it's a very tricky you feel like it's full of minefields and you know you want to be respectful but I do think that I missed an opportunity in like in being on tender hooks I think I made it a more protracted situation like if I look back at my mistakes as a stepmother, I should have just treated them both like my kids way faster.

18:40Right. Right. Like I was too worried about everyone's feelings in a way. Which is counter to what you're describing as this mother archetype, right? You were eclipsing yourself. You were saying, I'm going to give you some of this, just enough warmth that maybe everybody's comfortable with and nobody wants that. And so all that means is what's probably being read by the children is, okay, I am being rejected. Okay. I don't get as much as her own kids. It's not quite as warm. And so that could be also telling them to shut up, right? That could also be disciplining because - Just treating them the same across the board, right?

19:25You're going to get everything and you're going to also lose it the same amount if you behave poorly. All right. That's interesting. So like the idea that if there are four kids in a room and two, you know, two of them are my biological and two are yours. And I'm like, say to mine, like, hey, like that's not acceptable. Stop doing that. But around, but everybody knows like, right, that I love my kids fully. So I am disciplining them. But if I'm pulling the punch from your kids, it feels like I'm othering them. Yeah, you're not reading. They don't get the same equal treatment, good and bad. Right.

20:05And I think that's, you know, again, as you're building this new family dynamic, there is a dynamic of a family that you're trying to create. And everybody has to get the same thing from both parents. parents and I think also you're again building this civilization you know while also you know the hope is if you're you know if you've gotten divorced you've learned all the lessons of divorce and the second marriage you have is a choice you're making of somebody who you really understand the relationship and it's very deep and meaningful to you and you know it's not going anywhere. And so nothing can threaten it.

20:43And then something comes and threatens it, right? And so then something you realize, you're like, look, if for some reason we can't make this work, you hope you're with somebody that would eventually have to choose his children or her children over the relationship. That's who you want to be with, is to say, look, I don't know how to get this to work, and they're really struggling, and we're doing everything we can, I have to choose them. And so you know that in your head. We knew that in our head that if the one thing that could, I think we always believed no matter what, that we were going to be able to work through it, anything, no matter what it was, hard as it may be.

21:21But the part that's scary that becomes triggering is like, yeah, but this could really blow it. And our only fights were about Exactly. And kids that are looking to know that they can count on this can smell that. Right. And they're saying, okay, if that's where the trigger point, if that's where the pressure point is, I'm going to put pressure there because they also want to build this amazing new family. They do. Why wouldn't they? Who wouldn't want to be part of something great in this expansive new experience where they get these bonus parents? They clearly, if their parents love, there must be something great about them.

22:00And so I think it just, it's a very, very complicated soup that everybody is swimming in. Right. And the only way to manage it is both parents, both being their absolute best, but also something that numerous, I think, therapists that told us was the adult's dynamic with each other is the most important thing. Actually, you should never break up the relationship because the kids are having a hard time. Actually, what they need to see is you two are. There's no daylight between us. And so I think any time we really focused on that and really focused on those two things, which is like I am going to whatever's happening today that's causing trouble, I'm going to go deal with my shit about it.

22:48And also we're going to deal with our shit about it so that the kids just know that they can't mess with it. And that's a relief to them. What's an example of that, like dealing with your shit about it? What was an example? If you want to talk about my psychology, right? So if I have abandonment issues, right? And then we're in a situation where I need to manage an issue and I feel stuck between. And my brain is, oh my God, I'm going to lose all of this if I don't handle this. And it's spiraling out of control. and I get into this space of fearing of abandonment, I'm not doing anybody any good because I have to embody this father archetype, which is creating boundaries and being solid and being unmovable when it comes to the values of the family.

23:39Right. And unafraid, you know? And so if I'm not doing those things, you melt down, right? You're cut off and flying out to Mars. The kids are melting down and everybody is sort of in a confused state. And so it doesn't take much. Like I said, it's at a dinner table. It doesn't take much. It's not even what is said. It's how it's said to say like, okay, everybody shut the fuck up. We're doing this now. or it's just managing, again, being really clear with everybody, again, what the values of the family are and saying, these are what we're doing, and then us living up to those values. Would you recommend that people kind of, that the parents sit down and sort of articulate the values of the family that they're trying to create?

24:32Yeah. I think we did that, right? I remember we asked them all once, what do they think, what do we think the values of this family are? And we all had different things and some of those things were a little bit were interesting some of those things were yeah i guess we don't say they are but that kind of is that and oh yeah and um but i think we needed to know and i think we needed to stick to it and we also needed to 100 commit to the truth which was you and i are never breaking up we're not going anywhere so this is the family right and we're allowed to invent it and create it in our image right which is healthy and communicative and accountable and fun and delicious and present right these are these are all things that this is what we expect of everybody and when they go out into the world they can be who they want to be but when they're we're together as a family this is what we expect of them.

25:31And I think it helped because then you can just say, that's not it. What was your philosophy around being a stepfather? Well, I mean, in my specific case, it was a little different only because you and your kids are so complete and close in that way. It's like, it's really, I mean, it was much more about finding a way in than it was about anything else. You know, you guys are, you know, They really look to you for everything. And so it was just being not needy in that way and just being steady to say, like, I am the masculine presence in this house. Yeah. And I represent what that is, which is steadiness and calm and curiosity.

26:23You know, it was like, okay, so they know when this is a dinner table, they know what's going to happen at that dinner table, right? They know we're going to have conversations. About World War II. Or about any particular subject or something, news that was going on in the world that day or astronomy or something to get their brains sort of ticking and having to think about things. And also know if they had a problem, that they needed advice, that I would be there for that. But that I just wasn't, I didn't need anything from them.

26:57what have you learned about yourself from being a step parent i just think it's i think it's because you have to be so thoughtful about what it means to be a father as a step parent which you don't in the same way you don't really have time i think as a as a parent when you're raising kids, you're just sort of doing it. And you're trying not to do what your parents did in the bad ways and trying to do what they did in the good ways and unconsciously doing what they did in the bad ways anyway. That as a parent to a stepkid, you're like, well, what does it mean to be a dad here? Like, what are the fundamentals of being a dad that's going to be necessary?

27:36And I just want to do those. And also, you're not enmeshed with the kids so you can actually see them. Right. Like with your own kids, you're so tied up with them that you think you see them, but you don't. So when they're kids you just love, but you see them completely, you can give them what they need a lot more easily. And you can help the parent that is genetically attached to them and who raised them before you got there help point out like, oh, I think you're missing this. Because you're so tied up with them, I think you're maybe missing this and sort of help guide in that direction. You've been very helpful to me there.

28:23And you to me. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I think both of us, you know, so much of parenting is just paying attention and just noticing, you know. I think that's right. I think we both do our best to notice. And I do think there's value in talking about what we were saying about how do you be a mother, be a father to stepchildren while also being respectful of their mother and or father at the same time? Because it is a tricky part of it that I think we both manage to handle very, very well. and thankfully our ex is also handled very very well yeah but what do you think i think it's because i also think it's much more complicated for a mother it's a much more much more dangerous area than for than for dads unless of course you know you have a dad who's the kid loves to play baseball and you're great at baseball and their dad is great at being your then it can get a little tricky about you know who's playing catch with the kid but for moms i think there's so much more to to what do you think or what's the question how do you both do what we're talking about and embody that sunshine maternal treat them as if you know as if they're your own because they are and yet not ever threaten their birth mother.