Burnout, Boundaries, and the Business of Starting Over

25:09So like as a consumer, how do we, how do we start to understand what is actually clean and what's not, or what's on the edge? I mean, I remember our first, one of our first people at Goop who we hired when we were doing our clean beauty had worked for you, Blair. And I used to call her, you know, from stores and be like, read her ingredient because I had no idea. you know it's like this is in the clean section is it clean she'd be like put that down and walk out of the store you know people still come to you with their sunscreen i'm like i know you don't want the ava benzo noxy benzo i'm not sure what all the other 90 things are but yeah no it's hard it's really hard i mean i think that that's one of the things the reasons that we went after the state and federal government on these issues is that there is no well first of all there is no clean standard and there was no such thing as clean but also consumers are left to their own devices to try to navigate these murky waters and understand what means what and what is clean and isn't.

26:09And I think that now, like I'm proud of the movement that we built and you were instrumental in building that. There were a group of us that built this clean beauty movement over time. But what's happened now, and I think this is probably when I think about what my opportunity is now with counter, it's how do we set a definitive clean standard once and for all? right and how do we all and it doesn't mean that i'm perfect and i can hit every single thing that we set but if we all really set a high standard how do we set that standard then how do we get the retailers yeah to come along with this because one of the things that's really hard right now for consumers is that every retailer is defined i mean i'm talking large big box retailers they're all defining clean differently and so how as a consumer and a lot of it is total bullshit and it is and it's it's serving their own their own needs not the needs i mean i've been in and you and i have worked with some of the similar retailers, I've been in conversations at times that are like, well, you know, our guests don't really care about that.

27:04I'm like, well, I think they would if they knew what was in that. And so they say, well, no, some of them only want clean. I'm like, no, no, you should just, if you all took a stand and started holding your brands claiming to be clean, accountable for what they're saying that they are, like the whole industry would move forward. It's true. I mean, you know, at Goop, for example, we, we have an incredibly stringent platform. Like, you know, I think we're, we are by far like the strictest and, you know, I have worked with brands to reformulate so that if they want to sell on goop, there are just certain things that we don't allow.

27:39My, my makeup artist in LA, Georgie right now is in the process of, you know, she's like, ah, you know, you guys are such a pain in the ass. I'm like, I know, but you know, I think it's super important and these hidden ingredients that actually are incredibly harmful. And to your point, like there's a reason that there are so many health issues and there's, you know, I mean, I think all of the endocrine, the fertility issues you're talking about, I mean, there, we, we used to slather ourselves in endocrine disruptors, you know, let alone like fire retardant on everything and, and, and all of the things that we, we breathe in, you know, every day.

28:16So I think personal care is like, I mean, that's. I mean, you put it on your largest. Exactly. Every single day, especially, you know, Someone says, people have asked me in the past, as an average consumer, if I am trying to navigate this and I have a limited budget, what would you do? And I said, first of all, I would be shopping fragrance-free because so many of the offensive chemicals are hidden under international IP law. And so they're not disclosed. And so at least you know you're taking out some of those harmful chemicals like phthalates that bind that scent to your skin. And they so closely mimic our endocrine system that the body doesn't know to reject it.

28:50you know and i've said you know think about like your body lotion if you're putting that on all over your body every day and if you can't afford it then literally just go put some coconut oil on or olive oil or something because those things you know they go into your skin and they're in there they're not coming out again right so i think that that they're i've always tried to help people prioritize their spend and their thinking when they're shopping with whichever brand yeah Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the beauty counter journey for a minute. So because it had a really interesting business model that you created and a ton of traction and the business grew and grew and grew, did incredibly well.

29:30Will you tell me a little bit about sort of the trajectory of the business? How did you decide to create this? I don't know. I find it so empowering. You empowered women to sell the products kind of, right? It was, you were very limited at first in terms of distribution points. It was really through women. You know, I think that when I started beauty counter, I wanted to almost create an underground movement because I felt like all of the shelves were controlled by the incumbents, all of the large brands you know those conglomerates controlled every single shelf across america and it doesn't matter whether it was in walmart or bloomingdale's or burgdorf government or anything in between so they didn't want the story of safe ingredients getting out there because they were the ones that were putting these chemicals into the products and you know marketing their you know walks for brex cancer all these other things that they were all doing you've got to be kidding me so i kind of wanted to create a bit of an underground movement and catch them by surprise i also think and you know this better than anyone that we we trust people more than companies and the government more times than not we trust our friends and i thought we had an important story to tell and it needed to start with education because at the time when i started beauty counter most americans like more than 80 percent of americans had absolutely no idea that there were chemicals of concern in certain of the products that they were using right and we'd only banned 11 ingredients in the u.s that you had banned restricted almost 1400 not all those are commonly used in personal care products but you know other countries were taking notice of this and i thought we need to educate and how better to do that in the light of fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care because these are the women's that are struggling with fertility these are the kid ones whose sisters have breast cancers these are the ones whose children are ill and they care deeply about these issues and so a friend of mine said you know if you considered like a direct selling model to which i was like hell no like you know i'd always heard about these people that are over promising and under delivering but when I started to look at it, I thought, wow, this is interesting.

31:32We can actually power up a group of women who can educate their communities, their friends, their family. They can earn a living. And for many of them do it while sitting in their home and taking care of their children or doing it through their Instagram feed or whatever. And it just found like, to me, it was like a more compelling direct to consumer model than just going back to the big box retailers who were not going to want the story to get out. Very disruptive and empowering again for, and and was it a commission based yeah they got paid commission and you know it's not dissimilar to affiliates today yeah i think that you know you were paid there were a lot of things that that came up in the old business that people didn't really understand they thought people were able to buy a whole bunch of inventory itself from their homes that wasn't the case we shipped everything through our e-commerce platform unless we shipped something like through our relationship with you all but they got a paid commission on the sales and then a very very small percentage of them built a team and they could get paid on other people's times but it was like a tiny piece of that and a tiny piece of the business but you know it's also interesting because people don't like that team building aspect of those companies but it's exactly like corporate america everyone builds a team right you know but anyway it was it was an interesting business model but we did also want people to have the choice just to go to beautycounter.com to shop with us at goop ultimately towards the end we had a partnership with alta so we were We're always trying to, or do collab with Target or whatever.

32:56We wanted to make sure we were reaching as many people. And then also used those women to power up our advocacy efforts. Because we really wanted them to help us pass new pieces of legislation on both the state and federal level. And they did exactly that. Right. I mean, that was incredible to watch you go do. I mean, you single-handedly cleaned up a lot of ingredients that are in personal care. I mean, there's probably still a bit further to go. but you made incredible headway. And I know it was the first law since the 20s. Is that right? It was the first time since 1938 that they had actually updated a major piece of federal legislation.

33:34It wasn't FDR was putting in something in place as part of the, oh my God, the Food, Drugs and Cosmetics Act of 1938 or whatever. And it wasn't until then. And we held about 2000 meetings on the Hill on both sides of the aisle. And I finally testified in front of Congress on behalf of our entire community. And I do think that we were instrumental in passing MOCRA. We're not the only reason it passed, but I think we really did help put that issue on the map. And it was so empowering for people to be able to meet with their member of Congress to tell their personal stories about why this matters, why our health matters so much.

34:09Because I think sometimes people forget your health is literally your greatest asset. Yeah. And I think, you know, we've been a bit tricked in terms of, you know, like, I think, I mean, in a capitalist culture, where, you know, profit is valued above all, I think, and cheap ingredients, which are potentially harmful, valued above all, you know, I think we've been sort of trained to lose that immediacy of like food being medicine or personal care being medicine, the things that we're putting on us. and eating. You know, it's like they've managed to sort of put barriers between, right? So I think it's so important.

34:51And it's been really interesting, too, to see the younger generation really clinging to this and really, you know, anyway, like my daughter's friends, like they are very aware of environmental toxins, which I think is fantastic because it's, you know, the consumer are the ones who move the markets, right? And those are the ones who are going to change an ingredients panel, right? If they stop buying something, then the companies have to listen. I think people forget how powerful, people think about voting in political elections, but they forget that every single day you're voting with your wallet and the choices that you're making, purchasing.

35:32And I do think that in many ways, we sold our souls in the name of capitalism in this country. And I think that it is incumbent upon us and brands, because I do think what you said is true. I think that brands can move a consumer market way faster than a nonprofit organization. People fall in love with brands. They are emotionally connected to brands. If Nike tells you to just do it or whatever, people listen to these brands. And so we have opportunities as brands to actually move markets in a positive way. And I do think that business and commerce can be used as an engine for positive change.

36:07I think you and I both feel very strongly about this. And I think we both try in earnest to do that. And there are a lot of people that criticize us and say, oh, you're fear-mongering or you're full of shit. But actually, no, we're just doing the best job we can to try to help prove to the world that you can have a business that can be financially successful, but that also can have positive social impact and take care of the earth. Yeah. And I don't, I think when you talk about, you and I have, both have kids and we have similar age children. I mean, I worry about this for them. So someone better start thinking about a triple bottom line and thinking about, well, what happened to those workers in the field?

36:40We did that whole mini documentary series on MICA. We went to physically audit our minds and we found four-year-old children mining the MICA that we were using in our products. And instead of hiding from it or switching to synthetic, we said, okay, how do we work with nonprofit organizations on the ground to help create systemic change? Because there was no other opportunity for those families to put food on the table. I mean, there's a lot going on out there. And fashion's certainly hearing a lot about it right now. But beauty and personal care is right there. Bit of a reckoning there. Yes.

37:19So you grow Beauty Counter to like$300 million in revenue. Huge number. And you get approached to sell it. you sell the company for almost a billion dollars, right? A billion, exactly. Somehow I admired him as a woman. I was like, a billion dollars is important to me. It was something that I felt like we need to demonstrate as women that we can hit these marks. Yes. So you sold to private equity. We were, all of us and all of your friends and all in the founder community, so proud. And I remember once being at a gathering with you with a lot of female entrepreneurs and you talking about your exit.

38:01And it was like this heart swell of like pride from all of us. It was such an incredible achievement and accomplishment. Do you remember that one? I do. I don't remember exactly where we were. And then you had, I think a similar story that a lot of people have when, you know, private equity, you know, of course they start out with all of the right intentions, like buying a brand and the value of a brand, the emotion of the brand that you're talking about and then set out to scale it further. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like? And then you lost control at a certain point. I just think it's so, there's so many interesting lessons for founders and CEOs in your story.

38:44I, you know, I, I always remind people because, you know, when you look on the surface of someone's brand or the person, they seem, everything seems always seems so great and successful like you know it's like oh I remember one of my friends said something about about the brand and they're like god they were just like an overnight success and I said overnight success is like 10 years 24 7 that's overnight success yeah yeah it's hard yeah so when I sold the brand it was May 20th was the day we close of 2021 and actually that was a really important day for me because it was my father's birthday my dad died a really long time ago of cancer right so you and I have had that in common I was in my 20s when he died.

39:21And so I just thought it was really cool that it was his birthday. And I remember that, I mean, I cried that whole day. I was so proud. I mean, I still, you know, it's like as a woman to have started a business and sold it for a billion dollars, it was just a huge moment. And to have represented all these amazing women to get to where we were was awesome. And I felt so proud. And then unfortunately for me, I think that it was, it happened concurrently, like exactly at the time that the world opened up. I think you and I talked about this this summer where everyone had come out of the pandemic, where they were really inwardly focused.

39:56The only thing you could really spend money on was your food and your skincare and things like that. And what happened? Well, we were selling through women and many of them went on holiday as they should, got out of their homes. People redirected their spend to retail and to travel and other things. And our business stumbled that summer. One of the things that's been said often about brands and mine in particular at the time was, oh, we used to have this COVID bump. I'm like, no, I think we flawlessly executed COVID. I think we nailed it. What I don't think I flawlessly executed as a CEO, I didn't anticipate what it would be like for both our sellers and our clients when we came out of the pandemic and they had to reimagine how they were doing business.

40:35And we had a hard summer. And that October after, you know, five months later, they told me they were going to remove me as CEO and that they were going to look for, you know, a more established beauty CEO to come and replace me, which was very hard to hear. Right. I mean, I was, I mean, I remember exactly where I was. I was on my way to parents' weekend for my daughter's eldest daughter Phoebe's parents' weekend. And I was in the airport and I remember just, you know, hanging up the phone and like crying all the way up there. Cause I didn't want it. Cause I really felt like I was capable of running the company.

41:07And I felt like for eight years I'd done a pretty damn good job. And I did recognize that we weren't growing as quickly, but we were still growing and everyone else was struggling too. So that was tough. Yeah. And so then how did you, how did you manage through that? Because you still had a role at the company, like what internally, what, what was that like for you to sort of have to forcibly shift into something else and still be a team member? And I'm just so curious about like your, the inner workings of you during that time. Yeah. I mean, I look, I don't think I'm very good at it. You know, I had to do that when I sold my company of Martha Stewart was all of a sudden it was Martha's company and everything was about Martha and I was like it's hard when you know and I think that's partially ego and partially just it's hard to watch someone else take over your baby and tell you it's almost like having I mean I haven't experienced this but but but you have but it's like having somebody else help raise your children and you're like well like I know them better than anybody like what do you mean you've made that choice for my my child and again maybe they're doing with the best intentions but It's not your, it wouldn't have been your decision.

42:15Right. So it's very emotional and hard. So I really wanted to publicly put on a good face and smile and say that I was welcoming in this new CEO, but I was dying inside. And quite frankly, he came in and wanted nothing to do with me from the very first day. He canceled our first meeting. And arrogance, again, I think assumed because he had been a seasoned beauty CEO that he knew better than I did. Right. And I think one of the great learnings for all of us is it's so easy to come in from the outside and look at, I could come into Goop and I could look at all your problems and be like, why did you make that decision?

42:51Why did you do this? I could have done it. But the reality is you don't have the context. You don't know what happened in that moment or why that choice was made. And of course, some of those decisions were bad decisions. But also sometimes listening to people that built it, understanding who has the institutional knowledge is actually very valuable. And so if I could say anything to founders, one is, you know, recognize your worth. You may not be the best operator. There may be a better scaler in terms of operations. But your gut instinct is right about your business. And I think that that was immediately ignored, which was really hard, which is why we basically couldn't work together.

43:27Right. Right. And so at some point he was no longer there, right? Well, he had me removed immediately. So he and I only worked together for, I think, three or four months. And then I was gone and I was gone for two years. And during the two years, he made some really poor choices that led to a place where the board called me back in, in the fall of 2023 to say, would you come back in as CEO? We think you're the right person to lead the company. And what was that? What did that feel like? I mean, I mean, you were like on a beach or chilling. Finally, it was like, I tried to say this to like friends of mine.

44:03It's like, you are totally in love with your boyfriend and your husband or whatever. Well, this is what it was like. This is actually how this all went down. So I'm in love with my husband and he leaves me for this brighter, shinier, hotter woman. But we got to go to the family weddings together. We've got kids who got to smile in front of the whole family and act like I'm thrilled that he's now married to this woman and smile in front of my children and act like it's all good. but meanwhile I'm seething with anger and then like let's just say two years later he decides that girl isn't actually his one and he really wants me back right like you've got to be kidding me I just got over you like I finally got over you and I and you know because you saw me and I was crying I was going to therapy and I was like I was doing anything I and everything to try to move on yeah this was such a huge part of my identity and I was still in love with the business yeah and working with the women and then the second I'm like okay I'm out I've got this I'm And finally, you know, Mark, my husband was finally like, you got to move on.

44:53And I did. And then they called. Of course, it's like, this is like dating 101. The minute you don't care about the guy anymore, they're going to call. So I think that, you know, they called. And at first I was like, well. And then I just said, no, I really, I don't, I think I've actually like, for my own emotional well-being, I don't think I can go back there. But then, you know, they really said they need you. And I thought about that community of women. Right. And I thought like, I owe it to them. And we still have work to be done. And so I went back in in February of 2024 to try to turn the company around.

45:24At that point, what was the revenue number? Half of what it had been. So when I sold the company, it was close to$400 million. And when I came back in, it was just over$2 million. Wow. Okay. And it was no longer profitable. But it was just too late. I mean, honestly, it's funny because at the time, you know, quickly made the decision not to continue to invest or the private equity firm. And I was really upset with them at the time. and it's funny I've spoken to them since I realized now they saw what I couldn't see because I was so emotionally attached that it just was too late it was and what what does that mean it's too late how I just think it was that there were there'd been so many decisions made over a period of time that had you lost trust with the customer I think it was a couple of times I think that we had I think we had degraded the brand a little bit because we were it was constantly on promotion right you've seen this happen brands of course when brands aren't doing well then it's like let's just discount more and more so i think there was that lost trust loss with the women right because we had gone from being a very emotionally driven purpose-driven community with a female founder to a very corporate transactional right so i think that was really hard for them and there had been changes made to compensation a lot of things had changed some of which i agreed with but it was still really hard and then i think that from a branding standpoint i think again they kind of decided they wanted to change all the branding and remove the founder from it i just there were a whole bunch of things that went on.

46:44And I just, I think that, that it was, it wasn't going to work, which is, which is why we went into foreclosure. I mean, we were, we were in breach of our debt covenants. I didn't even really know what debt covenants were at the time. Now I do. I know a lot about all these things now, but it just, I think it was just a little too late at the time. So did it, the company file for bankruptcy? No, we actually, actually, we didn't filed for bankruptcy, but we did go into foreclosure. Okay. And we had been honestly, from the fall of 23 straight up until when we went into foreclosure, we had been trying in earnest to find a home for the company to either find a financial sponsor or a strategic to purchase it.

47:25Or, you know, that we talked to a couple of direct selling companies, like we've been talking to anyone and everyone. And there were people that sort of, excuse me, were circling around it, but no one actually put in a viable offer to buy the company. Right. What do you think the, like looking back, what decisions, what were the wrong decisions that were made by the leader at the time? What would you have done differently when you look back, you know, at the person who took over and the decisions that were made then? Like what would you have done differently? well first of all i would never have removed all the people that had all the institutional knowledge including the founder that doesn't mean that you can't put the founder in a different role but i think to not talk to the founder listen to the founder understand the founder's original vision and all the events that led to where you are i think that's just that was unwise i think the poorest decision in my opinion was trying to take a purpose-driven community-based business that really where people really believed in what they were doing and were emotionally attached both the products and the purpose and the advocacy efforts etc and try to turn it into a traditional big box corporate beauty brand and use an old school beauty playbook to meet the needs of the consumer.

48:51And when you take an industry disruptor and you try to take an old-school beauty or any industry, it just doesn't work. Right. No, I've seen that as well at Goop, like people coming in and trying to apply an existing playbook or one that worked for them at a previous place. And I think it's very rare that that works. I think every brand is so unique. I mean, unless it's, you know, literally just like the same factory in China making the same things. And, you know, it's just how much money you're putting behind something. But if it's a real brand, you know, it requires, I think, a degree of contemplation and adaptation and flexibility.

49:37Like, you have to always create a new playbook. And I think you have to always create a new playbook for yourself at every iteration of your own business, right? Because markets change and algorithms change and consumers change, etc. So it gets foreclosed. You watch your business that you founded kind of fall apart. And then you get the brilliant idea that you're going to buy it back. Yeah, brilliant or crazy, yes. Or both. You know, so I was on spring break when this all went down and it was sort of like over the weekend, Thursday was the drop dead day. We were going to go into full liquidation on the Thursday.

50:26And on the weekend, I remember my daughter Georgie saying, mom, like, you just cannot let this die. She was using her like last vitamin C serum that we had. And she said, mommy, you've worked so hard. Like, you just can't let this die. Like, you just can't mom. And my son, JMO, had been trying to sell the fragrance that they put into the market. I mean, my son literally only posts lax things in his friends' sports things, but he was buying it and trying to sell it to his friend's mom. And they just said, you can't let it die. And I just thought about all those women that had worked so hard to help build it.

51:03But I was scared. I mean, I was petrified. Do we have enough money? Can we afford to do this? Et cetera. And then I got a phone call on the Sunday night from my lawyer who said the banks have just called. And there is no deal. You are the only possible deal. Do you want to buy the company? They want you as the founder to take this back. They believe in what you did. I mean, it's actually quite an extraordinary story. Wow. I mean, I really respect the guy from Bank of America that called to say, this woman built something special. We want her to have it back. We're going to lose our money either way, basically.

51:36But we think she deserves. It wasn't just Bank of America. It was JP Morgan. It was a syndicated, it was syndicated debt, but, but either, but anyway, they all, they all came to me and said through my lawyer, we want her to have it back if she wants it. And so I sat down with Mark and my kids and, you know, I was just like, Oh, like, can I do this? Like, it's so scary, but we decided to do it as a family, you know? And then I did it. And then I literally had like a full blown sobbing, hysterical, like panic attack, like two days later, like, Oh my gosh, like, Oh my gosh, what have I done? Because you know there was so much we bought the assets but there was all this debt that had been on the business and you know I mean there was just so much going on I thought oh my gosh I mean like what have I done I mean I was I do remember sitting on the floor at my house with my family and with Lindsay Dahl who had been one of my partners I mean just hysterically sobbing thinking why did I do that why did I do this like I'm really I was genuinely scared because the complexity of the business and what I had taken on and what was I going to do with it I mean it just was I was petrified, genuinely petrified.

52:38So take me through what was the next step and the subsequent step. So the next step, so that was, I think I purchased the business on the 19th of April of last year. And I made the really difficult decision on May 1st to shut the business down. Well, I made the decision maybe the day or two before, and I had to let go of all the associates of the company. There was no money left. So there was no severance. I mean, I had to tell all the women who built their lives with us that, that we were shutting down and, you know, it was, and then I had to, of course, receive the backlash from that, which was hard.

53:15And, you know, you've, you've, I don't know how you deal with it, but it's hard to be publicly, you know, just, you know, cause it hurts and you, and you, you, you're trying to do the right thing and it's, you know, you're disappointing everyone. Um, but I felt like the only way that I could be, the only way forward was to let it die and to start a new company and to begin anew. I just, it had to all be re-imagined. As I said earlier, it was, it wasn't working anymore. And the complexity was extreme. I mean, and the cost of trying to turn it around would have been, would have so far exceeded anything that I could raise in any short period of time.

53:51It would have been tens and tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars a night. That just wasn't going to happen. Right, right. And so I made the difficult, but in retrospect, I genuinely think the right decision just shut the whole thing down as hard as it was at that time. And then did you retain the formulas and the product? Like, how did you - I bought the assets, so I was able to retain the formulas. We had inventory that we were able to sell down, which was great. You know, we got locked out of our office immediately. So there was all this stuff that, because we owed money for rent, but actually technically you're not supposed to do that in the state of California, but they locked us out.

54:24so I never could go back in and get anything so I had kind of what I had digitally but but I was able to get you know we had our customer database and we had our formulations and we had some of the old assets so did you did you set out did you go back to the your commands and start over with the formulas did you every single one of them well there had been this huge skew proliferation and then also all these new contract manufacturing partners because of course mine weren't the right ones or whatever so you know he had added all these other ones in and you know I think one of the things I've learned in business is you you want to be really important to a few people not just not important to a lot yep because when things go wrong which inevitably they do you want to have that relationship so I actually went back but I had to renegotiate every single thing because there was an inordinate amount of debt and so it was the same conversation over again and where are you getting the capital to do this at this point so i so i put in a bunch of my own money and then i raised a little bit of money and from some of my old investors and then one new person i mean i literally did all this in about 48 hours wow and then i started calling the manufacturing partners and i said look this is we're in a shit situation i am so sorry you're in this position.

55:47I don't take responsibility exactly for where we are, but here's the deal. I would like to move forward with you. I'm going to greatly reduce the number of, I'm going to dramatically reduce the number of SKUs and the number of people with whom we work. And if you want to play ball, you're going to have to work with me because I don't have the money to pay you right now. And I'm not going to ever have the money to pay you. So it was actually incredible testament, I think, to the brand we built and to how amazing some of these companies are. I mean, there are a lot of companies out there like you know and I and you know what I'm gonna say who they were because you know people don't also in our industry ever talk about everything's a secret right yeah and like all these guys came to the table and they're like we got you Greg wow I mean it was amazing like I literally when we launched like I was so appreciative of what they did and that just shows the power of relationship and people and because there's no way we would have been able to do this without all these companies because they were losing their shirts too because they put all this money they were owed all this money they had you know batched up all this product that could no longer be sold and it was it was hard but they were amazing people were really amazing to us i mean i i and so many of my old teammates that were no longer with the company like they came back and they said we're gonna help you and all of you guys like everyone rallied it It was just super nice to see people rally around you when you've gone through a difficult time because it also just saw the power of women supporting each other.

57:14It's been quite a journey, but I feel so appreciative of the outpouring of love from anyone, from the warehousing people to the... Amazing. Not DHL. They weren't. They were terrible.

57:35Well, you deserve it. And I think what you built and what you're building now, really extraordinary companies and so women positive and in so many, you know, from so many directions. So was there a decision around not keeping the name beauty counter and going to counter? Tell me about that. You know, I, I really felt that the only way to enter the market again, And you and I both know this, you know, the market is, well, first of all, the beauty market in general is completely saturated. And now there are a lot of million brands claiming to be clean, whether they are or not is a whole other story.

58:10But I think that I felt that the only way path forward was to reimagine everything from the packaging to the branding to certain of the formulations. Of course, we have some of our tried and true favorites to the business model. Like I didn't, you know, it's 2025. I launched in 2013. What was innovative in 2013 is it's like antiquated. today. Right. So I really, I gave myself last summer to take the time to think. And I said to everybody, look, I'm, you guys are, we have a small team, you're going to get paid, but I don't really know what we're going to do. I don't have a plan right now. Like, you know, I didn't have a strategy.

58:46So brave, which is so weird. But I mean, I didn't have a strategy because I literally made the decision in 48 hours. So I said to everybody and to myself, like, I'm going to for myself the next couple of months to think on this and to talk to people. I went out, you know, I talked to you. I talked to, I called on a whole bunch of people. Like you were super helpful. I called, you know, Bobby Brown and got her advice on how she started her new brand, whatever. I just was talking to people that I cared about that had done different things in and out of the industry and tried to gather as much information and then made the decision, looked at where I felt we had an opportunity to come back into the market.

59:18Yeah. One of the things I felt strongly about was that we were always counter to the industry. And Beauty Counter was named that name because it was the intended double entendre of going counter to the beauty industry. But I thought it was also limiting. And there was positive and negative biases towards that name. And I thought just limiting, you know, counter felt right. It felt right. And we all felt really good about it. It's a great name. And I just thought, and then, you know, we reimagined all the packaging because I felt like it needed to be fresh and new. Right. And more cohesive. and I didn't like where it had gone.

59:49Right. And then I just really looked at where's the white space. And I think one of the things that I felt strongly as I looked at the products we sold and to whom we sold them, and as a woman who's well into her 50s now, I think that older women are largely ignored by the industry. Yeah. But yet we're loyal. We have the money to spend and we care about our health and we care about, we are making more conscious choices for the most part. And so one of the things that had gone wrong with the brand was they're trying to be everything to everyone. And so I really decided I was going to lean towards that older demographic because that was really who we had in the first place.

1:00:23I mean, yes, we had younger people using the product, but in general, she was sort of 35 up and maybe even 40 up. And so I thought, why not really lean into her and give her something that she's going to love and not worry about being everything to everyone right now? So what are you doing differently now, this time, this go around? Well, I'll tell you one thing I'm doing. I'm really focused on profitability because I don't ever want to worry about money again. because you and I both know that with, with like, you know, at the time, you know, when we were all building businesses like over the last decade, but that until a couple of years ago, it was always growth at all costs.

1:00:55All they wanted you to do was grow until they didn't, until they wanted you to be really profitable. And that's not just like my private, that was, that's across the industry. So one thing I really, really focus on in money is not my strong suit. Ask my husband, I like to spend money, but it's like really being very careful in the choices that I'm making, really focusing on new and in in technology that's easier for people to use way less skews i mean i think when i came back in we had something like 235 skews and now we've launched with 19 and by the end of the year with color cosmetics we'll have about 31 to 35 i think that's the right amount yeah yeah yeah let's do a few things well right i i think i'm doing that differently i'm not letting some what which was happening not looking at what other people doing I keep saying like guys we have to build business on our own merits and not copycat of the brands and whatever like what can we do well what can we do really well and I've said to the team if you don't feel and I have the confidence to say this now if you don't feel so strongly about that product that you'd literally be willing to risk your job over it and I'm not saying your job is at risk but I want you to feel that strongly about the products we're putting into the market then let's not do it yeah so I think that's different and I think I'm different I mean You've known me for a long time and you've seen me in insecure moments and really insecure moments.

1:02:09I was really insecure for a couple of years after Beauty Counter when I was out. I didn't know who I was. I remember showing up at an event, a gathering that you and I were at in Utah. And I remember this so distinctly. You gave me a hug and then you quickly turned to someone else and I was like, am I not important anymore? I mean, it's crazy how your mind can go there, but you start to feel this way. And so I feel calm. I mean, not every day, but I feel calm. I feel conviction. I feel high level of humility but I also have confidence that we can do this it's not going to be easy and it may be a lot smaller but I want to reimagine the business model, the distribution, I want to meet the needs of today's consumer and I really want to uplift women as I do it and democratize it for women that's incredible it's amazing to hear you talk about it are you going to use the same are you going to use consultants again?

1:02:59yes we've named them brand partners this time We're brand partners. We're not, people aren't building teams anymore because that became complicated for a whole number of reasons. But I think that we really do believe in community-based commerce. I believe the brands and communities are kind of one and the same. I mean, Goop is a community. Yeah. You know better than anyone. I mean, it's not, I mean, yeah, you're a brand, but it's about values. And it's about what they're seeking to understand and learn. And they look to you and they look to your brand for that. And I think similarly, people knew what we stood for.

1:03:30They knew that we were walking the walk and we were transparent and they wanted to associate. And so I think I believe that, you know, the most influential people are always your friends. And women listen to other women. So I do believe in that business model. But I wanted it also to be reimagined. And I also wanted to have like some of our own stores again. And we're super excited to be launching in Goop in a couple of days because that partnership's always been really great for us. We're excited too. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it's funny because over the years people used to say, are you guys competitive with Goop?

1:04:00And I said, why do you always say that? I feel like we're alibis. Yeah, completely. And we're all trying to help each other. And we've shared so openly things. There are a lot of brands out there that want to keep their things secret. I'm the opposite. I want to work with other brands because there's so much room for all of us to be successful and all of us to help women along the way. Great. And tell me how the brand partners reacted because I remember there was a lot of upset like you've touched on before when you sort of collapsed the model and the business so are some of those women coming back into the fold yes and some are not and some are not okay and you know I tried to be really respectful at a really difficult time especially to those women who had built large teams and really relied on the income I mean it was a very difficult conversation but I did try to be crystal clear to say the opportunity that you have today will be different and if this is your you know if you are relying on this income I encourage you to consider other companies and we actually spoke to other companies in the direct sales world to try to help create soft landings for other people because you know one of the challenging things when you build through independent consultants is it's not so easy it's not like the corporate world where you can just easily just go from one thing to the next and get paid the same amount of money it doesn't work that way and so right those are difficult conversations but I do think that we have it was funny I was looking I did an analysis.

1:05:25We have a hundred, I think it's like 120 people that have shopped with us from the very first day in March of 13 of the old company who are still shopping with us now. It's not a ton of people, but wow, it's a long time to shop the same brand. And I think that there are a lot of, there are thousands of women that we chose to limit the number of people who could start because I wanted to work out the kinks and get it right and co-create some of it with them. But we do have quite a few people that were representing us before and that are back and are really passionate. I bumped into one this morning and she said, I'm just so happy you're back.

1:05:54Thank you. Because it meant a lot to a lot of people. Absolutely. Yeah. What you built was incredible. And it is incredible. I feel very bullish about this, this beautiful second incarnation. I hope so.

1:06:15So as we're on the Goop podcast, you know, I want to talk to you a little bit about kind of maintaining sanity, maintaining energy, drawing boundaries. I think it's so difficult as a founder. And I have to say, I think not to pat myself on the back, but I have been working in therapy a lot around this issue like this. I think we all do get so burnout. We are laden with so much responsibility and it's very, very hard. I think when there's so much on the line to draw boundaries for yourself or create, you know, 20 minutes in your day to walk outside or whatever the case may be. So have you consistently found yourself throughout your career in stages of burnout?

1:07:05Are you in one now? Because you're literally back at square run right now. And how are you approaching that? Like it's so unsustainable. We know how stress impacts, You know, you talk about not putting chemicals on your skin. Stress is as dangerous. So how are you approaching that now? I think that I don't feel burnout right now, but I am feeling a little overwhelmed. Yep. How do you define burnout? Well, I think for me, burnout is when I feel apathy. Like I'm apathetic and I feel like it towards anyone and everyone in my life. and my work. Right. Where I just feel like I don't, it's not even an energy thing so much as it's just, you're done indifferent.

1:07:53Yeah. And I can, and it's in my, and I can feel it in my family. My family can feel it. My husband can feel it. My work is just kind of meh. So I think that one of the things, because the majority of the people that are working for counter, I had worked with before and not all, but a lot of them are. And we promised ourselves this time around that we wouldn't work at the frenetic pace that we were working at in beauty counter because it was and you know people used to always say it's a marathon not a sprint but but yet when you have the pressure of institutional investors which by the way everyone does and this isn't specific to any one institutional investor the pressure's on 24 by 7 yeah and so I think that I have worked really really hard recently on myself for the last couple of years and on learning how to confidently say no to things that I used to.

1:08:45And again, I think some of that's because I'm more secure than I used to be, but also knowing what really matters. And when, when I was out of work and I was no longer the founder and CEO of this beauty company that people knew about or didn't know about, I, I found that I didn't know who I was and, and I had to lean hard on my friends and my family. And it reminds you that that is really what matters, right? Is yourself, your family, your friends, et cetera. So, and your, your inner life, your relationship with yourself, a hundred percent. And you know, I, I feel for the first time in a very long time, very at peace with who I am.

1:09:22I feel really good. And that's taken me a long time. And so I think that right now I'm saying, I think when you talk about creating boundaries, cause you do, I mean, you do you were like you guys are out of my house like we're having dinner done and we all give you shit about it but like the reality is like you have to create these boundaries i remember when i was running beauty counter before i used to say to people they would meet me at school and the mom some mom very kindly would say oh you're georgie and i or you know phoebe's whatever we're in the same class would you want to meet for coffee in the beginning i would say yes and then i would blow it off blow it off blow it off and then i'd finally meet and i'd be resentful because i didn't have time and then I got to the point where I would just say you're gonna think I'm really rude but I'm just gonna tell you it's it's not gonna happen because I can only focus on my family and on my business and on my existing friendships right now and I'm so sorry I don't mean to be rude I just don't think at this moment in my time I have the capacity to take on a new friendship so I can tell you that we'd have coffee but we won't and good for you people were taking it back at the beginning but I got comfortable with it because I and I've also gotten comfortable with saying, no, I can't talk to your daughter, sister's boyfriend's friend's girlfriend that wants to think about what they might want to do in beauty on Saturday afternoon.

1:10:35You know, there's only so many hours in the day. So I am trying to be, be, be thoughtful in my choices of how I'm spending my time work-wise, be as efficient as humanly possible with my work hours, far more decisive. I'm not second guessing myself. I remember one, one of the people that worked for you at one point in line, she worked for me, you and then me again at different points of time. And she said, one of the things I loved about Gwyneth is she's super decisive. And I'm trying to be very decisive, clear in my communication, because if you're not, if you're indecisive or you're trying to keep everyone happy or you're blabbing on in a meeting, like it's such a time suck.

1:11:10Yeah. And then I'm trying to really focus on what I'm eating and putting in on my body. I exercise all the time. I really think releasing endorphments that, you know, I'm trying to be careful. My, my consumption of alcohol and sugar abuse, these things all add up. They do, especially at our age they really do yeah you know we've talked about this whether it's menopause working fatigue it's like and trying to be present and and i'm not very good about this and i'm trying to get better about this like putting my phone down and looking my daughter in the eye and georgie especially be like mom i get off that phone but you know just because we're addicted to these things so they were built to be addictive i know but it's like putting it away and just being fully present for dinner or whatever that walk is with your friend you have to be you have to.

1:11:54I think the quality of your life starts to erode so much if you're, you know, and you hijack yourself like with busyness and you're not present, you're not in your body. And then your body starts to bark at you. Like you're not listening to yourself. It's a slippery slope. It is. I also think that I've learned to calm down when the shit hits the fan. Like we were going to launch a couple of weeks ago, we launched on June 25th and one of our top newest, most exciting products fell out of stability and for people that don't know the industry that means like the that oil and the was separating from the lotion and it was making it a little bit runny and it was perfectly safe for health but it wasn't the experience that we had wanted for the customer and the old me would have flipped a switch right just freaked out and i was like okay well what's plan b right so that so we sent out an email to all of our customers saying sorry some of you already bought it it's not going to be here for a couple months it is what it is we're being transparent and and not allowing myself to go crazy over things that I cannot control.

1:12:55Because that creates so much stress in your body and in your entire community or your team that is unnecessary because stuff is always going to go wrong. Every single day something goes wrong. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. It's sort of how you are reacting to the problem at hand is everything, right? It's like, and I think when you get to where you are as a founder, you know that ultimately it's going to be okay. And even if it's not okay, it's okay. Like look at everything you've gone through and, and here you are today having just launched, relaunched this beautiful brand and it's okay.

1:13:34And it's going to be okay. Yeah, I agree. And I think the other thing that But I do think is, and I don't mean to play the like mother female card, but I do think we hold ourselves to these standards that oftentimes are just like unrealistic. And what I mean by that is, and I used to say this to the women when they were selling it. You know what? I actually sent my kids with lunchboxes once with literally nothing in them. I just screwed up that day. you know and there are days when I'm having a huge fight with my husband and I don't feel like going to work and I'm tired or I look like shit yeah and we don't have to present perfection to the world like the world is not perfect we're not perfect mothering is not perfect marriage is not perfect life is not perfect and I think somehow we feel as women that we have to do it all perfectly all the time and we just don't and I always say like you can have it all in life just get off have it all on the same day or even in the same month or even in the same year and there are moments in time where you're going to lean into your kids or you're going to lean into your spouse you're going to lean into your work it's okay yeah it's okay it doesn't have to be perfect all the time it's never going to be perfect no and us trying to strive for perfection if there's one thing i can do as i'm aging is try to help younger women know that like it's okay not to be perfect yeah you're never going to be i know and the beauty industry is is setting a standard up there that is just unrealistic.

1:15:00Yeah. Because they're air-touched and they're, you know, different filters. We're talking about social media. And it's causing so much harm to women thinking that they're, you know, this, they have to be this one. They can't beat them because that person actually isn't that either. No, it's true. And I think it's causing a lot of anxiety in the younger generations and a lot of body dysmorphia. I mean, I think we obviously had all that in our generation too, but now it's like on steroids because all day, every day. And as you say, they're designed to be addictive. And so much of the message in social media is like, you're not enough.

1:15:38Like you buy this and you could be that. One of the things that we said internally that we are committed to is not creating problems that our products will solve. Right. I mean, that's what we do, right? Oh, you've got wrinkles. Let us help us with your fine line and wrinkles. Well, is having a wrinkle a problem right no it's just part of the aging process and it's inevitable yeah and i think that and you know there was that whole what's uh is it america ferrera that did the whole line in barbie's like you have to be this but not this and this it's just like we need to as women embrace where we are in life yeah pump each other up and yes beauty can make you feel more confident more sexy or more fun it's fun yeah but it doesn't mean that you're not good enough as you are that's right we've got to give ourselves a bit more grace 100 and and that goes women to women too it's not just beauty industry and it's not we often you know we'll say well the men no we do it to each other and we and one of the things that you're so you are so incredible that when it is pumping up and lifting up other women and other brands and other founders like you've had such an enormous impact on the lives of so many people and not because you're an actor not because you've started goop even yes all those things but it's it's about you lifting up other women without asking for anything in return it's it's it's something that if more people were doing this like the world would just be a better place because we need more women empowered and we need need more women to have the confidence that they have a voice that matters and i i applaud you and appreciate you for doing that even even just having me on this podcast i'm like having me talk about my story I hope my story helps other women know that they can do it and it's going to be hard but they've got this yeah I mean what what more can you say that's perfect thank you for doing you're the best I really appreciate it and I and I do mean that I really I have to say like this the last couple weeks have been super emotional and I think that you know when when you post and stuff like it meant a lot to me because I didn't ask you to do that and and it just it it means a lot because I, I try in my daily life to like, if you always ask me like, why'd you post about someone else's beauty brand?

1:17:48I'm like, cause I actually use the product and I love it. Like, why would I not? Right. Right. Like, why are we not helping each other? Right. But you know, not, not enough people are. So that's true. Well, I'm, I'm so, I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you.

1:18:06Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of cadence 13 studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.