Can Creating Something Small Heal Something Big?

0:00Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

0:30Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

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2:29People stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming. We turn to ourselves and that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you. and I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world.

3:12Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. hi it's cleo wade we've got a really special episode today with elizabeth gilbert who sat down with gwyneth a few years ago at in goop health in la it's one of our favorite goop podcast episodes of all time so we wanted to share it again with all of you as many of you may know elizabeth is the mega best-selling author of eat pray love big magic and city girls in their conversation in front of a live audience, Elizabeth and Gwyneth talk about creativity as a profound tool for healing.

3:55This resonates so much with everything I've been talking about here on the pod these past few months. I loved how Elizabeth explains how there are a lot of different ways to create in the world, even if you don't see yourself as a quote unquote creative person. As Elizabeth says, the universe has buried these strange jewels within all of us. And today she teaches us how to hear our truths, or those little whispers around us asking us to be brave and do the thing and do it with love. Okay, let's get to Elizabeth Gilbert.

4:31Hi, guys. Hi, phones.

4:37Everybody wants to capture the moment. I know. We'll give them a few poses.

4:45Thank you for being here. My honor and pleasure and delight. I was telling Elizabeth backstage that one of the sort of seminal moments for me in my journey towards, you know, what will hopefully be integration and self-awareness one day. Let's keep trying. Was your TED Talk that was many years ago now. Yeah, I think it was 2010. Was it really? Yeah, yeah. Wow, time flies. And I really recommend you all checking that out if you haven't already. It's an incredible study around creativity and fearlessness in a lot of ways. So at the beginning of Big Magic, you define creativity as the relationship between a human being and the mysteries of inspiration.

5:34Yeah. Which you touched on a bit in your TED Talk. And you also wrote, the universe buries strange jewels deep within us all and then stands back to see if we can find them. Yeah. I love that idea. So first I want to ask you about that idea. Yeah. What does that mean? Well, it's an idea that came to me from a poet named Jack Gilbert, who is no relation to me despite the name, but I think of him as kind of like my spiritual father and my poetic godfather. He was teaching at the University of Tennessee, and I met a young woman who took a poetry class with him. And she had come from a very disadvantaged background.

6:15She grew up in a flat-lined, cultureless, kind of not-at-all-enriched society where people just worked hard and suffered, basically. And she had managed to get herself into college. She was the first person in her family to get there. And she had been told by her guidance counselor to go study accounting or something that she could make use of and make money of. And she accidentally, due to a clerical error, ended up in his poetry class. And it was literally the first time in her life she had ever seen art. You know, this beautiful man who was this great poet. And there was something that it awakened in her.

6:49And she started writing poetry. And she was good at it. And one day he took her aside after class. And he said, I think you have a gift. You know, what do you want to do with your life? And she said it was like it came from the earth itself. It didn't even come from her. This voice said, I think I want to be a writer. and he just took her by the arm and he said, do you have the courage to do it? And he said, the jewels that are hidden inside of you are begging you to say yes. And I found that to be the most loving, incredible thing that somebody could say to a young creative person. And that's where I had the line, the universe buries these strange jewels within all of us.

7:24And then it's almost like a game, it's a dance. And that's why I think of creativity as a relationship, not between self and self, but between self and mystery. that there are these strange forces out there that want to dance with us. Ideas want to play with us. And they're constantly kind of whispering to us like, you want to do something? Do you want to make something? Do you want to try? And so for me, I feel a lot happier when I create with the idea that I'm interacting with the mystery rather than that it's all coming from me. Because if it's all coming from me, I feel like I can't support that.

7:55I don't feel like I'm big enough. But if it's me in a conversation with the divine, with the mystery, with some strange process that human have been doing forever, that somehow makes it easier. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like this was something that you talked about after the success of Eat, Pray, Love. Yeah. And saying overtly that how does one, somebody came up to you and said, well, what are you going to do now? Not somebody, everybody. Like as if your life was over. Yeah, yeah. And so you really had to almost dissect your relationship with creativity after a period of paralyzation, right?

8:34Yeah. And really connect to the idea of these muses and these things that are around us that you just said whisper to us. Yeah. Why do you think it's so hard for so many of us to hear those whispers? Well, there's only one reason and it's always the same and it's fear. And that is nothing to be ashamed of. So I just want you to know that that never, ever, ever goes away. So just relax and enjoy that idea. It never goes away. I just published my ninth book. I will continue to write books for the entirety of my natural life, and I fully expect that fear will be my companion through the entire thing.

9:11So if you're looking for some kind of miracle where you're never going to experience fear again, if you want me to tell you that you're never going to experience it again, I can't because I still do. But I think I've come to understand fear in a way. certainly fear and how it relates to creativity. So do you mind if I try to explain my theory of it? Okay. So, so fear is the oldest part of our brain. It's the reptilian, like way back and deep in the cortex part. It doesn't have any imagination. It doesn't have any creativity. It doesn't have any perspective. It's a very rudimentary brain function.

9:43And all it knows how to do is feel the alarm and shut everything down. Like that's what it does. And that's its only job. So before we had consciousness, before we had self-awareness, before we had love, before we had creativity, we had that. And that's why we're here, because we had this survival instinct that was like, whoa, I don't know what that is. Stop. And so fear's job, entire job, is to stop you from doing things when it doesn't understand what you're doing. So anytime in your entire life that you do something where the outcome is not clear and where it's never been done before by you, your fear has a job to do.

10:20And that job is to say, don't do that because that's probably going to end in our death. Like that's literally what it believes because that's the only function that it has. And that's why it's so scary. Like that's why if you try to sit down and write a poem, it literally feels like you're going to die, you know, because there's this part of your brain that's like, this will certainly end in my death. And so like the very first thing I have to do when I, for instance, sit down to try to write a poem is that I have to feel that reflex. And then I have to say to my fear, so far, no one has died from me writing poetry, but I understand you.

10:54I understand you. So there's this understanding that I have of how fear works, and I accept it. And I don't fight it, and I don't try to get it to go away because it's impossible. I mean, unless I had some kind of weird brain surgery that took it away, it's always going to be there. So the first thing to do is to just have empathy and understanding for the fact that that is the natural reaction. And it's not just for poetry. It's anything new, anything new that you're ever going to do that you've never done before where the outcome is unclear, your fear only has one job and that is nope, dope, don't, don't, don't, death, murder, mayhem, back it up, shut down, stay on the couch, be safe, don't die.

11:29And so the relationship that I've established over the years is just a very loving conversation with that. Very maternal way that I speak to that because I know that it's just not that smart. So I just talk to it like it's my dumb cousin who just isn't that bright. And I'm like, I know, I know it's scary, but you know what? I've got, mommy's got this. And I always invite fear to stay with me because as soon as I say, it's okay for you to be here and you can stay with me and we're going to do this together. It just relaxes and it goes to sleep like a toddler in a car seat. So that seems to be the only way that I've ever been able to deal with it.

12:03That's actually a very powerful tool. And I think, I think a lot of us, if we were able to invite in fear or spite or anger or anything. Shame, as you were talking about, that's the really hard one. That's the million dollar one. Right. Yeah. If you can just say to all of those things, I've got all the room in the world for you, sweetheart. I have all the room in the world for you. You can stay. You can stay. You're allowed in the room. It's hard. I agree. It's hard, but that's the only way I've ever been able to move forward through any of that stuff. To me, it's really interesting that you always articulate the creative process, because when I hear you talk about it or when I read your words around the creative process, it really, to me, feels like you're talking about spirituality.

12:48Yeah, I am. And I think so many of us define creativity as like painting a picture or writing a poem or like having a skill or thinking like, well, I'm not a creative person. So this like I don't understand what that means. So can you tell me a little bit about your broader definition of creativity? Yeah. Okay. Here's what I think. I think that I don't really know what's going on. And in that regard, I probably have a lot in common with you. Like, I don't get what the literal fuck is going on. Like, what are we? I mean, you guys, it's profoundly weird experience to be a human being. Like we're on this ball of debris spinning around a star in the middle of emptiness at 67 ,000 miles an hour.

13:37We are made out of meat. And yet we have consciousness. We are the only thing on the planet that is like us. Like nothing else feels the way we feel or reacts to life the way that we do. Like we have a lot in common with other life forms except for this insane amount of consciousness that's so unprecedented. presented that nothing else has ever had. We don't know how to use it. We don't know why we have it. We're here to be like, we keep looking for things like us out there in the universe and we're not. It's weird. And then they drop you here into a family and you're like, what? Like you, like you wake up one day and you're like, this is my mother and my father and these are my siblings.

14:17And then all this stuff happens to you and all this loss and all this pain. It's so weird. And, and I don't know what any of it is or what any of it means. But the one thing that it, there's one thing that appears to me, which is that we do seem to be living in a universe that is in a constant and unending state of creation. There's this kind of old fashioned view of creation that creation happened a couple, you know, however long ago, and then it ended, you know, like God made it and then it stopped and we've just been bouncing around inside of it. But the, but what it appears to be, if you look at physics is that it's not ended.

14:50It's, it's, there's this ongoing thing and, and galaxies are being born. There's a thing called star nurseries where stars are being nursed into life and new planetary systems are being made. It's never stopping. And it's never stopping here either. And so we are not witnessing that. We're part of that. So we are from that. We come from that. We work into that. And so if the energy of the universe is a constant creation, when you are in creation yourself, you're in alignment with it. And that's why it feels so good. Because you're in the river of the thing that is happening from here to the outer extent of the universe always.

15:30And when you're not in creativity and when you're not in creation, you're against that flow. And that's why it feels like depression. And that's why it feels like despair. And that's why it feels so heavy. So for me, the best way that I can feel healthy, which means a sense of belonging, not just belonging to other people, but belonging to this whole weird story that's happening that we're in, is if I do creativity small c on a small scale. So if I make something, then I'm also creating just the way that the universe is constantly making something. And for some reason, that feels deeply good at the soul level.

16:02And when I'm not doing that, I'm stagnating against a power that wants me to create with it. Does that make sense? So for me, it's profoundly spiritual because I feel like there's no greater way to connect with capital C creation than to engage in small C creation. And that C can be as small as you want. That can literally be like cutting a picture out of a magazine and pasting it to a page. Look, I created a thing. You know, there's something about making something with your hands and doing something that just makes you healthy. And I think it's what we're supposed to be doing so that we don't despair.

16:36Yeah. Or even, you know, I think for those of us who aren't creative in those terms, you know, the idea that we can be creating ourselves by being in integrity, by having the difficult conversation, by leaning into something. By growing. By growing. Like that's, is that creativity in and of itself? Totally. And maybe it's the purest, the absolutely purest definition. You're bringing yourself into being. Right. And the only other thing I know beyond the recognition that everything seems to be in constant creation is that for some reason, and I will never know why, I was entrusted with this one to take care of.

17:17I was given stewardship over this soul dropped into this body, into this family. And that's the one that I'm apparently supposed to be taking care of because they gave it to me. And so I think that like nourishing creation in terms of taking care of that thing that you've been given yourself, your body, your soul, your spirit. I think that's also a way of being in alignment with creation. Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

17:48It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness.

18:18Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. So how do you reconcile grief? I mean, we were talking about it earlier, and you lost your partner recently. Yeah. How do you, as a person who is looking at the universe in that way, how do you reconcile it?

18:55How do you incorporate it into your creative process? Like, what does it mean to you if you could look at it in a more agnostic way? I think that the greatest creative challenge of my life has been my grieving of Raya. And I think that grief, this may be a weird thing to say, but I think grief requires enormous creativity because what it wants to do, what grief feels like is a shutting down and despair, you know, which is a crushing of yourself. And so it requires this kind of very brave and very enormous creativity to figure out how am I going to live without the one person that I always said I can't live without.

19:43So that's interesting. You know, like if I can even step back from it, I say interesting, but I always think interesting is a useful word when I'm in despair. Because I think it's like, well, this is an interesting one they've given you. Like, wow, they took away the only person you ever felt safe around. That's interesting. How are you going to feel safe now? How are you going to create safety when she's not here? And so for me, it's been a year and a half of intense creative exploration into that question. And some of the ways that I've been finding my way through it are, like, I talk to her a lot.

20:23I write to her. I soon after she died I took out my laptop and I just I wrote Rhea I cannot live without you and so I won't so I need you and I'm writing to you and I need you to write back to me and I have my hands on the keys so go and I'm really afraid that this isn't going to work but I really need to talk to you and I'm really scared that you're not going to be there and the next line coming out of my hands was Rhea saying well if you're scared it's not going to work you better not fucking try it And I was like, there she is. I know that voice. I know that voice. And I started this conversation with her, this dialogue that I've continued since that time.

21:02And I don't know, and I don't need to know whether what is responding to me on that page is Rhea's spirit, is an angel, is God, or if it's just that she's so internalized into me because I knew her and loved her so well that I actually now own her voice in me. It doesn't matter, but it works. So I think like whatever you can do to try to find that, you know, another thing is I've been in, I was talking to you backstage and saying I've been in a lot of grief comes in weird waves as those of you who grieve know, like you kind of think you're on the other side of it. And then it's like, Oh, here's another one, you know?

21:37And there's a surrendering, there's a surrendering that has to happen to that where you just hit your knees and you're like, Oh, I'm in this now. Like I, I'm just, it's a bow down. Like this wave is bigger than me and now I'm just going to have to sob until it stops. And I've been in that for the last few days. Fun times. But what happened is that I talked to her through it. And what I was saying to her over the last few days was that I'd reached this place in myself where I kept saying to her, nobody can comfort me but you. There was never anybody who could comfort me at the deepest level of my pain than you.

22:09And what I heard back, and again, I don't know if it's coming from there, if it's coming from here. It doesn't matter. But what I heard back was her saying, baby, you have to give people a chance. And that means you have to tell them that you're in pain. So if you, you've got it, they're not going to be as good at it as me, but you got to give them a chance. And so what I've been doing literally for the last three days is every single person who I encounter, I'm like, hi, I'm in a lot of pain right now. I did that to you. You're like, how are you? I'm like, not good. I'm in a lot of pain right now.

22:39Nice to meet you. You know, like this is literally the first, the makeup artist. I was in the trailer and she's like, hi, how are you? I'm like real sad, real sad, not doing well. And she's like, it's okay. When I was 13, my parents moved a chair into my bedroom so I could counsel my friends. What's going on? And I'm finding that like, just say it. Like, just like, I hear Rhea going, yeah, do that. Do that. Every single person, like if you're in pain, tell them, tell them, don't tell me. She's like, tell me and tell them, you know, like don't, don't close it off to the rest of the world. And that's creative.

23:09Like walking up to a stranger and being like, hi, I'm really sad. Like that's a creative act. But we're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to say, I'm great. How are you? I'm not sure we're supposed to. I think that's what we're culturally trained to do. But I also think that every time you do that and it isn't true, I think you die a little bit, as you may well know. And I also think you miss the chance to connect. You absolutely miss that opportunity and miss the opportunity to have depth with someone. Even that at a cocktail party would change our lives. Instead of making small talk, if someone said, how are you?