Cassandra Thurswell on The Power of Micro-Intentions

31:44do I go to the movies on the weekend like I and I I remember just spending so much time in creating this kind of realistic life for myself it was very deliberate and so for me I was very clear that I was all in I was really okay with not going to birthday parties not traveling not going out to eat doing all stuff because like this is all I wanted this was what success was to me. And so when I created that schedule and opportunities kind of came across my plate, it was really comfortable for me to say, you know, I, I, I'm going to work this weekend. No, I'm, I've got, I've got to have a focus right now.

32:25I'm keeping my head down. This is what I'm doing right now. And that was my business plan. Essentially what a business plan is, is it puts an area of focus for everybody to, to, but it was just me. So everybody was me. I was just focused on this lifestyle plan, essentially.

32:47And so you articulated what it meant you were willing to give up in order to create this brand into existence. But did you also articulate for yourself, like, was there a visioning part of it? Like, and this is what I'm willing to give up, dinners, birthday party, and this is what I'm envisioning my life will look like if I do scale a business? That's a great question. I, you know, I never, I, I never was like, I want to be on, you know, Oprah or like, I never, I was never doing that. Like it was just, it was just like, there was this big vision of having, having success, but like, again, and I wanted it to be like something special, but at the time I was really focused on this bubble of success for me.

33:44And still today it's like, Hey, it's great if we do these things, but if people aren't reordering it, it means nothing, you know? And so I still feel that sense of like, like, I don't want anyone to have buyer's remorse. It should have purpose. Like this is, this is something that's so important to me. And, you know, even, even now when I create like our strategic goals for the year, it still is so untraditional from other CEOs that are like, here's the, here's the budget, here's the dollar amount that we hope to hit. Here are these certain KPIs. I'm like, it's all about net promoter scores. Like we need to know that people are willing to, to refer our brand to other people.

34:30It's all about organizational health, like how happy and how, how highly functioning is the team? So it still goes back to the, this very, when you say my vision, it was, it's still that make great products, have great organizational health and the financial freedom aspect of it, being financially stable. And still, the only investment was the$30 ,000 from the very beginning. And so I'm really curious what you said. I really love the idea of sort of like the KPI being the NPS. Because to me, that means if you're doing everything right with your product, like if you're satisfying the customer, there is no important indicator of success.

35:24So it made me curious, like what have you ever had a quarter or a year where the net promoter score went down a little bit? And then did you, what were the steps you took to understand why and how were you able to rectify it? Yeah, I mean, over the past 15 years, we've had some launches that didn't go right. I'll give you a perfect example. When we first launched shampoo and conditioner in the bar format back in 2020, I can't remember because there's when the product launches and then when the product is created. And, you know, sometimes it's two years before when it actually launches but when we launched our bar shampoo and conditioner I was so passionate about it and when I when we picked out the fragrances I picked out something that I personally loved and I love like earthy smells like patchouli and so when it launched the response was like, first of all, the smell for hair care is like number one.

36:33That's like, doesn't need, if people love the smell, they'll still continue to use it, even if it's not great for their hair. But when I launched it, there was such an adverse reaction to the fragrance. It was like, it doesn't matter how great this product is. And so that was really hard for me. and because I was so passionate about the product. But I, again, that was where I took a big, I went off track to the people-centric strategy from the very beginning, make great products that people love. I didn't ask other people, hey, what do you all think of this smell? You know, it was like such a passion product of mine.

37:12But it's a hard balance, I think, because like, you know, and you talked a lot about instinct at the conference where I heard you speak, But I do find that a really intriguing and difficult and hard to unpack balance because on the one hand, it's like an entrepreneur is visioning something and has a really strong instinct. So for me, when people say, well, let's find out what everybody thinks of this before we do it, to me, that like loses all the magic. But then there is a naivete in that because then you're telling the story now where, you know, you have a strong instinct to make something smell a certain way and then there's an adverse reaction to it.

37:53So how do you navigate that balance between market research and customer feedback and your own strong instinct? I love this question. I love this question so much. So when my mom and I had a boutique, it was, we knew our target market. It was a very small store. And we were catering to that customer, meeting them where they were at. And there was like a certain, there was a certain energy around that store. That store probably couldn't survive in many, many other states. So when I wanted to be a product that was accessible to that Midwestern customer, I wanted to be a product that wasn't so uncomfortable or unfamiliar that it was intimidating to them.

38:47And so I think that you have to know your brand to that point where is this a visionary brand, like a piece of art that like, you know, speaks to a very small audience. And what I'm going to do is I'm really going to inspire that small audience. And a lot of people won't like it, but that's what's going to make it special. And that's my business strategy. And I know that it will never go full mainstream without modifications. And I'm OK with that. and like and I think that that's a business strategy and that's okay I think people think like oh we all have to be like these gazillion dollar brands if that's what you are so passionate about and that's what you love like like right create create a create a clean book so you're profitable and doing it right and with and responsibly but just know like it is going to be fringe and be okay with it.

39:43But for me, I was, I'm thinking about my friend, Brittany, who lives in Mankato, Minnesota, who doesn't order off of Amazon. You're like, I'm thinking about this customer. And when she goes to smell it, you know, is this a familiar smell that, you know, her significant other will also enjoy and everybody will enjoy in the household. and and the answer was no and so I didn't have an ego about it granted I still really love the smells now so I take my like the perfume that I will personally wear out of the equation and then now I curate it so that it's enjoyable to me but it's it's it is more familiar to you know a lot more people.

40:31But you're still, even though essentially you're compromising between instinct and market, you're still making sure that you love and believe in the version. So it's a, it's an authentic thing, which will then resonate with the customer. Yes. So a perfect example of that with the shampoo and conditioner. I also really like ginger. I like the smell of ginger and come to find out that it's also a smell that other people like too. So, you know, even though my personal preference of all time favorite patchouli, I also really like ginger. Let's put that smell in there. I do love that idea, right? That like, it can be also the spirit of something very unique and new that you can then figure out a way to make, you know, translate it and make it more widely appealing?

41:25Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, I think, and I was a forgotten customer for so many years as someone who lived in a small town, a Walmart was 45 minutes away. And I remember walking in and being like, do they even know who they're selling to? Like, this is clearly men who are creating these products. Like I have$10 to spend and you've given me the ugliest colors and the worst fabrics. Like I really remember they forgot. And so there is a way to make a unique and beautiful smell without it smelling, you know, like a car freshener. But yeah, that's, I think that that's a good example though, of when something didn't work out and, you know, the journey I had to go to to understand why and and then redirect so then because now your shampoo bars are a hugely viral product so did you what what made you keep believing in the format like was it that direct feedback like we love the product but we hate the smell what did you do with the excess inventory?

42:38And did you go out and get feedback on a number of new smells before you went back and reformulated? Yeah. So thankfully we didn't order too many units. I still have one of them because I will have it forever because I do love that smell so much. But no, we didn't order that many units. So when we first launched it, we got a lot of reviews on it. The other thing was we didn't color the bars and the customers were like, I don't know which is shampoo. I don't know which is conditioner. The round is kind of hard to hold. So when we went, when I went back to, with all of this feedback, we changed our bars to an Etz and a C shape for shampoo and conditioner.

43:23That was a big benefit to the customer. And then we colored them as well. And then when it came to the fragrance aspect, it was such a collaborative experience. And just like in my merchandising classes, because I got my undergrad at university of Minnesota and I learned about merchandising and why things are at certain places on the shelf. I really was like, what do people want to smell when they first wake up in the morning, when they're washing their hair after the gym? And we, we really got into like the psychology of the smell and like, what, what was really exciting? when you open up the package, do they want it really strong?

44:01Or do people not really want their shampoo to be really strong because they wear perfume after? These were all the things that we were questioning. And it was really fun. It actually was more fun to hear the customers because we do a lot of consumer study groups, whether it be through our Facebook or through a couple of different platforms that we use. And now we don't let any product go on the market without at least 100 people testing it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And is it randomized or are there certain people you always go to? So we have an internal testing group that is our first tier. And once it passes the first tier, then we go to a randomized group, which is, you know, they can come at us as hard as they want.

44:45But the nice part is, you know, once we know that those customers like it, we know we've got a real home run. I just want to go back to what you said around the psychology, like trying to understand the psychology of, you know, what is this person thinking when they are, you know, putting this product in their hair, on their body, trying to understand. And is that does that become for you, like, what are they feeling? And how do we want them to feel? Like, how do we how do we enhance that? Or how do we, like, elevate that? Or is it really just trying to understand the psychology? Do you know what I'm trying to ask?

45:29Like, is there a? Yes. So this is, this is really interesting. I like this question because some of the things that I used to do was I would go into, cause we're an Ulta, I would go into an Ulta store and pretend like I was a customer. What does it feel like to like walk into the brand, you know, completely unaware of, you know, where we're located in the store? How hard is it to find us? What is our, how is our product looking as it hangs on the shelf? When I pick it off the shelf? How heavy is it? Like, I really try and go through that whole experience. However, I've, again, from the very beginning, Kitch has never, I'm never aimed for the brand to be the shining star of the, for the customer's life.

46:17So like, if you think about a piece of jewelry, like you want people to see the jewelry and you want, like, if it's a name brand or whatever, it's like, they associate there's like this almost like this like know me for this thing that I'm I'm wearing I've always felt like kitsch is a supportive brand and this goes back to maybe just not a good marketer and not telling people that we're the coolest and the best but I I think of kitchen how you know when you're in a heated conversation and you go to reach for your hair tie and you put it up in your hair and you just want it to work, you don't even want to think about the hair tie.

46:57The hair tie should just perform. Or, you know, when you just got, you know, your hair done and you need to stay dry or you need your hair to dry quickly because you need to run out the door and pick up your kids from school. You're not thinking about the hair towel. You're thinking about your kids at school. You want the hair towel to perform. And so, you know, it's like these, these interactions that I think about the customer having with the product, it should make her life easier, but I don't necessarily think that she's like thinking about the product, but what I didn't realize now that, you know, like we have so much incredible feedback from our community is people say, this is my favorite.

47:35I can't live without it. I love my spa headband. It's my baby. If I travel, you know, like those, that was kind of the aftermath because I, I like, I really, I really was so passionate about all the little things that we were doing, even just the unboxing experience of it. I wanted it to be so special because I didn't want to have that forgotten about customer in Amory, Wisconsin, you know, going into a store feeling like, you know, they don't get me.

48:10So when you talk about sort of the business plan was a lifestyle plan, can you speak a little bit further on what is the lifestyle that you envisioned? And then what were the, how did you see the product roadmap developing to kind of make that, that lifestyle plan be something that people could participate in? So the first part of your question, how did I envision that lifestyle plan? So there were a few things for me that were non-negotiables. I love taking walks with my husband every day. That's like such a big part. When I first started, my lifestyle plan was very different than my lifestyle plan now.

48:57So there was just, you know, really basic things that were like non-negotiables. Like, like I said, taking a walk with my husband, you know, being able to go and interact and sell the products with my customers. And what's interesting is the next part of your question being the roadmap that That came so organically when people were saying, you know, I knew the hair tie was better for your hair than that basic black elastic that we'd all been using for so many years. But the light bulb moment was, you know, people saying this, like this changed, this changed my hair. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting.

49:36I wonder what else we could be creating as this lifestyle brand, you know, from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep, what products could we be doing to care for your hair that isn't shampoo and conditioner? And so that's how we got into the satin pillowcase, the heatless curling sets, and, you know, the spa headbands for, for washing your face and thinking about it all the way through as a full lifestyle brand for hair care. And that was really unique because I don't think a lot of people are challenged to think that way. Like we're a skincare brand. We just make skincare products.

50:16We're going to stay in a skincare lane. And for a long time, retailers didn't know what to do with us. And I remember saying, listen, if a customer is going to stop for a hair accessory, let her get her towel, let her get her, you know, like let her go top to bottom and shop for all of these things because she's, she's there and let's make it like a curated assortment of all of her favorites. And so many years later, now we're in now the biggest category that we have is shampoo and conditioner, which is so different for a hair, for an accessories brand to pivot into, you know, like, I'm not going to say liquid hair care because we're solids, but you know, actual, like a consumable version of hair care.

50:58So the roadmap to answer your question came so organically with the conversation with the customer. What else? I mean, our, our, our Facebook community is like, you need to make tampons. And I'm like, okay, I guess like we're like, we're going to stick with hair, but like, you know, in a more unique way, but like, you know, pubic hair. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, no, it just really happened organically. But I think that the lack of product roadmap or a business plan, the lack of that and doing it so differently than what they teach you in business school was, I think, the secret to success because I was just listening.

51:41I was just listening. And it was very clear what people wanted and what they didn't want. I could literally ask you like 400 more questions. You said earlier that you don't run your business in a typical way. And I know that you're oriented around customer obsession. Are there other ways that you run your business that you were alluding to that are kind of outside the normal paradigm that you might want to share? We're fully remote. I believe in the remote strategy. I think very controversial with a lot of my friends, but I really do believe that being remote exposes a lack of communication and process.

52:31So it's constantly challenging the status quo to have a better system. Can someone open up a file and see in that very moment where we're at in the process? So I feel very strongly about that. And because we're remote, we have employees all over the world. And we have 200 employees. We also do all of our own warehousing and fulfillment in downtown Los Angeles. So that's really a unique aspect to our business. But from maybe a CEO standpoint, I think that there is a lot. And my husband and I are in the business together. together I think that we we really strive to run a business that it's one of Kitch's core values that people have pride in their work and I think that that's something that isn't fostered enough like do you really do you really love doing this so you don't have to you know you don't have to do this I mean of course you know you know we all have to pay the bills but you there are many jobs that you can have that pay the bills.

53:40Like there's, there's just gotta be that level of passion here. So yeah, I think I'm kind of rambling on this question. No, that's great. Okay. And then when you said, you know, you have like a micro intentions practice. Could you talk a little bit about that? I really love talking about this. I didn't, I actually didn't even think it was special until I started talking about it. at G9 people are like, wait, that's really cool. So I hope that - I think you need to write a book about this, by the way. I really think like we were talking about before, that there is this fine line between talent and hard work.

54:24And we spend a lot of time thinking about the clothes we want to wear and the food we eat, but we don't spend a lot of time thinking about the thoughts we want to think. And what I mean by that is we can put thoughts in our mind. 50 % of our memories are not real. They're not real. And so I play a lot of games with myself to really get myself in this mindset of like, like I even before this call I wrote out like what how do I want to feel after the call what's what are the words that I want to come out of my mouth that like oh you know what that felt really good talking to Gwyneth she's like such a great energy and like I'm really happy I did that and some things that I'll do that are very pragmatic I don't think it's crazy there's no like chanting involved in this, but I will write future journal entries to myself as if it's already happened.

55:32In fact, I just did one the other day. I just resurfaced one the other day about, you know, getting into Target and being one of the fastest growing hair care brands in the space. I wrote that many years ago. And I can tell you when I wrote that journal entry, the feelings that I felt from writing that was the same feeling that I felt when our buyer told us that at our meeting. There's no difference. There's no difference from the thing actually happening than, you know, pretending like it's happening. I have this quote, the secret to having it all is knowing you already do, because I really believe that you don't need the thing to feel a certain way.

56:19You can feel that way immediately. Like, you know, maybe not immediately take a few minutes, draw a picture. You know, I send myself big emails that say, you know, congratulations, your top selling brand. And then I'll, I'll go and reopen it and be like, that feels that's, that's the feeling I want. You know, I want, I want to feel the way of getting an email like that. One of my favorite things that I've been doing for years is I'm not a talented artist by any means, But when a friend tells me they really want something, I will draw a picture of a journey of them getting them to that place of wanting of their achievement.

57:00And it's such a beautiful exchange, you know, to pass that on to them. And we actually do that. We kids, we do something called Fortunate Friday. and someone from the team will bring to the meeting, you know, like my parents are moving. I'm really nervous about them moving. And 20 people will be drawing pictures of this employee's parents having a successful move and feeling excited about it. It is the most powerful thing. And people really, I don't know, it just really unites everybody thinking, thinking and wanting one thing together. Oh, that's so beautiful and such an exquisite and generous and magnanimous thing to put into practice to like create a framework and like a homework way to help other people manifest what they're, what they want.

58:02That's, That's amazing. Absolutely amazing. So do you think that, so first of all, do you, do you feel that way after our conversation? I really do. I really do. And I, I'm so painfully shy. I'm so painfully shy. I'm like, I'm like the most, like when I, when I go to events like the G9 or wherever, I, I will go find the darkest corner and I will just stand there until it's time to sit down just because it's just not, I don't, I, maybe I'll work on it. Maybe I'll read some books on socialization. I don't know who knows, but like, you know, it's just like, it's just not something that I'm really used to.

58:41I love being alone and working and doing all stuff and having really nice conversations like this. But what's so funny is, and I make this joke all the time. And I'm like, I remember when I got to meet Gwyneth Paltrow. And the first thing I said was, we have the same dentist. And I was like, that was really nice. Well, see you later. Like it was just, there is just something about, you know, there's just something about me where I get super awkward around people. It doesn't, I mean, it doesn't matter if it's someone famous or just someone new. I just, the first interactions with people, I just, it's not my, maybe not my area of of excellence but but you know maybe maybe not in in real life but like I think you energetically put putting forth this idea that like I want to feel this way after my conversation like creates an energetic bubble where therefore like I can come into that bubble and, and how, and we can co-create that together.

59:48That's exactly it. And, and so that was, this is the big one, right? This is like one of those big moments, maybe a milestone, if you will, for, for me and my career to be able to share this, but you know, the, the, the micro intentions or what I've been calling lately are the minor stones is like putting, putting pen to paper before a phone call with your mom being like, I don't want to be triggered to, you know, like I'm going to, I'm going to have, I'm going to be really gracious with my time with my mom today. You know, just like it can be so small. It doesn't have to be these like big, these big moments or when I put my daughter to bed tonight, she is going to cry and I'm going to confidently be able to allow her to sleep in her own bed.

1:00:35You know, like it's just, yeah. yeah anyway okay I swear to god this is my last question who paid for your wedding my husband and I we paid for our wedding but you know what though my wonderful loving mother-in-law she bought my wedding dress for me and I bought it on pre-owned wedding dresses.com and I I'm a little embarrassed to admit this I put it back up on pre-owned wedding dresses.com and sold it for more than I bought it for. I had to like, you know, really like I, I'm, I mean, when you're bootstrapping, you really have to think about every single dollar that comes in and out of your life.

1:01:20But, but yeah, so she, she was so wonderful. She did buy me my wedding dress. So, but yeah, we, we did it. We had a small 20 person wedding and my husband and I say all the time, it was 18 people too many, but, but yeah, we, it was, it was great. Oh, that's so sweet. wow I cannot thank you enough for your time today and you're just you're you're really like you know I I have the great pleasure of being of meeting a lot of wonderful entrepreneurs but you know few as inspiring as you are thank you so much that really that means a lot I cannot tell you how much I appreciate a compliment I mean compliments in general are just wonderful and they're awkward to receive.

1:02:02I know. You know, they're just to have someone like you who really does. I mean, your Netflix series changed my life. I'm sure you hear that all the time. But as someone who like, you know, has admired you and everything that you've created and you're such a multifaceted person, a compliment from you is like really amazing. So thank you very much for saying that. I really appreciate it. I'm so grateful to you. And thank you so much for being here today.

1:02:40Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of the Goop podcast. I hope this conversation inspired you as much as it inspired me. It really has me thinking about trusting my intuition and being open to embracing the unexpected in the way that you build life or business. So thank you so much for listening and see you next time. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts