Charli XCX

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1:59When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers.

2:47Here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. here we go welcome to the goop podcast i'm gwyneth peltro and today i'm joined by one of the most original voices and music an artist who creates worlds not just records and refuses to fit neatly into any box we talk about creativity collaboration and the freedom that comes with owning your vision Fearless, inventive, and deeply original, Charlie XCX.

3:28Well, welcome to the Goop Podcast. Thanks for having me. I am so thrilled to have you. Oh, thank you. You know, I realized in researching this podcast, like, I have such a strong draw to women like you who are doing things kind of on your own term so much. And of course, I guess I'd love to start asking you with some questions about the music, if that's okay, because your music is so unique and filled with so many contradictions and sort of iconoclastic in this really brave way. And so, you know, I was wondering when you set out to make music, do you hold a particular idea of this kind of feminine form that you want to embody and represent?

4:24Or is it sort of starting more with the songs? Like, if we go all the way back? You know, it's interesting. I think my process as a writer has changed, you know, as I've grown. And I think my writing process is quite selfish. I'm never really thinking about the sort of physical outcome of it or the way that people will respond to it it's very much like in the moment I'm kind of just like pulling from whatever comes to me I don't know it's kind of like I find songwriting is quite like a magical experience because it's sort of like how do you even get an idea it just comes it comes and then you channel it and you kind of go with it and sometimes it ends up being good and sometimes it ends up being you know awful but yeah I I think it's all just instinct when I write and then but it comes in the form of like are you at a keyboard are you hearing oh I it's like I hear melodies in my in your mind yeah and then for me especially recently it's really begun with lyrics like it begins with like a quite intimate story that I would like to tell like whether that's like the feeling I had at a party one time and then I kind of like explore that feeling and you know why maybe I have that feeling oh it's because of you know the way I grew up or you know my insecurities and I kind of go deep into that world so it's lyrically kind of lyrical jump off point for me so like the nostalgia of the situation, a sort of bringing forward feeling?

6:01Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Sometimes it's, I mean, it's quite therapeutic, I think. Sometimes, you know, you really dig into a moment and, you know, realize it's because of all of these things that have happened in your past. Other times, you know, a song or a lyrical kind of starting point for me will be very blunt, very like, this happened at a party and then I just write about it and it's not like that deep, you know what I mean? But it's like I like the contrast of high and low. That's something that's always really appealed to me in all of my work and the work that I admire from others, the kind of Warholian high and low art type thing.

6:39Yeah, because I would say there's a very, there's a volatile aspect to your songs in that they are, you know, like a lot of them are soft or the sentiments behind them are very female. And then the production is quite hard, which I love. And I - 365 party girl. I love it. It's so great. And also what's so interesting is, you know, the song that leads right into 365. I think about it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yes. Which to me is this incredible encapsulation of womanhood or who I imagine who you are as a woman. Yeah, yeah. You know, that song is quite interesting. It's like I played that to a few close friends before and some of them like really, really responded to it in a really intense way.

7:37because I think, yeah, it's like there is, I think, still a bit of a stigma perhaps around women who like don't really want to have children. Right. You know, and I think for me, it's like I'm always swinging between the two. Right now I'm on the side of like, actually, I'm not sure that that is for me, but that could go back, you know. And the interesting thing, just not that I'm giving you advice, but just being a mother. Yeah. I think we have this idea that we do have to swing back and forth between like I am, you know, as a career person, I'm here to do this. And this is my purpose. And I don't know if that aligns with children, but you can do both things.

8:23And that's why I sort of loved those two songs back to back. because I was like, this is so punk rock, the contemplation of having a baby and then like talking about blowing lines in a club. Like that's perfection. That's like a whole picture of, you know, and there are no rules around what kind of woman, what you have to give up. Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, the whole kind of like point of the record as a whole is like life is messy, you know? And I think especially as women in the public eye, there is this pressure to present in this certain way. And obviously, we do present in a certain way sometimes.

9:06It's kind of just like what happens? It's easier for people to write a like, you know, Gwyneth is that box in, put it out there. But for me, and I think for all of us, it's like, as you said, life is volatile. There's highs and these lows and all of these crazy things in between. and all of these conflicting thoughts that are kind of constantly coming up. And yeah, I think the placement of those two songs, as you said, on the record is like very much speaking to that. Yeah. I fuck with it all the time. Like I know how people want me. I know the box they want me in. I know what they're comfortable with.

9:45And to me, it's like one of the most sexist. Of course. Right? To be reduced to like a comfortable. A slogan. version of femininity so I really like to mess with it I think you like to mess with it I do yeah yeah yeah yeah of course of course it's part of the fun I think of of you know what we do and I think there's kind of like a meta-ness to that that I really enjoy kind of like playing with what people think I should be and what you know it's interesting to me the kind of pieces of like a public figure's personality that people like pick up and run with yeah and then that becomes oh like this is who you are i just find it interesting i don't even think it's necessarily a bad thing i just i find it quite fascinating that that's like the world that we live in that the inclination is to put you in like an easy yeah yeah and just it's just interesting to me like the facets of like people's personalities that people pick up and run with and then make like this is who you are I just find it interesting it's yeah I don't even know if it's like if I see it as a negative thing I'm just like oh it's interesting that that is the world that we live in now this this need for something to be very very quickly digestible yeah and I think you sort of I mean to me anyway obviously I don't know you but it you sort of buck your nose at that like Like your music is not digestible, you know?

11:14It's so great. Yeah, thanks. But it's not like, oh, this is easy listening. Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I think the more you break it down, the more you sort of go like line by line, the more that you, I think it sort of, it gets into your soul. And there's like a real pulse of freedom within it, which is why I think so many young people respond so passionately to you because there's this incredible authenticism around all these different parts. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think when I was making it, I was really just trying to, I wasn't thinking about the response at all. I actually, I made this record being like, okay, I'm just going to do this one for me and maybe I'm going to get dropped by my label and that's fine you know that was kind of the head space that I was in.

12:08That happened to Billy Joel on his third yeah he was going to get dropped he was he had done like kind of these other two albums and then he was like okay I'm just going to do this for me and then I think it was like The Stranger. Right right right yeah I mean I it's like it's funny how that that happens I guess but I also think it's like there's a lot of you know luck with timing and like the way that culture is moving I think when I released this record it's like people were wanting something that felt like very real and messy and I think that's just like the way that culture was swinging you know it's like sometimes I feel like the pendulum swings in this way where you know people don't really want that and I'm really interested to see like what comes next in sort of pop culture, especially in the music space, like what people are craving.

13:02Yeah. Do you ever think about, you know, doing something super stripped back and with not all the production? Yeah, yeah. I'm a really, I'm a really big Lou Reed fan. That's kind of my, my guy. And yeah, I've definitely thought about that. I really like to work in contrast. So So I think, you know, whatever I do next will just inherently be different to brat because that's what feels natural. I'm exploring a lot of stuff with strings at the moment, which I'm really enjoying. I haven't really worked in that space before. That's so cool. So I guess where I want to go next is sort of picking up what you were saying around your influences and you love Lou Reed.

13:54Yeah. I love Lurie too. It's amazing. There's a very like, I was wondering if, you know, how much this sort of, you know, I was an expat living in London for a long time. So like when it was like chase and status and those kind of like, you know, like commercially. I did not think that Chase and Stasis was going to come up in this conversation. Love that. And like when I was listening to, I think about it all the time. There's like a very, the streets quality to the lyrics. Like to the. Yes. Is that? You're the first person who has brought that up. Am I really? You're the first fucking person.

14:37Are you kidding me? I'm so surprised. I know. Because to me, it's so obvious. It's like such a reference. I mean, I really, really love Mike Skinner. I think he, I actually kind of think there's like a sort of kind of similarity between him and Lou Reed. Yeah. Their lyricism. But yeah, it's funny. It's like when that song came out, everybody was like, what? Like, why? It sounds so unfinished. Like, what? None of this makes sense. Like, why is she talking? Like, you know. and yeah I mean I think that was kind of us in a way paying homage to the streets who are just yeah I mean he he just gets it and I think he is such a profound storyteller and he can really like go into the corners of of you know stories that maybe have been like quite frequently told but he has this really specific angle on the way that he talks about a breakup or a night out a club or whatever it may be, he can really kind of get into the scene in a really kind of specific way that I've always really admired.

15:41So that was, yeah, we were kind of like trying to go there for that song. Yeah, you really are the first person who's mentioned that to me. I mean, to me, it was like, I was like, this is, this seems like a clear sort of reference. And I think what I love about that talking in the strange cadence is it becomes so intimate. You know, it's like you really pull the listener. Yeah, it's conversational. And that was kind of a big, like, stylistic choice for the whole record. And what else do you listen to, like, specifically for this record? Like, Fat Boy Slim or? You know, I don't really listen to music when I'm making records.

16:23You don't? Okay, that's pretty common. Yeah, I just, I don't, I don't know. It's like I find it distracting. And I listen to the music of like my collaborators, like the producers that I'm working with. I'll listen to their kind of, you know, their like dance records, like club records and things like that. But I don't, yeah, I don't really listen to stuff. And if I do, I'm listening to Lou Reed. I'm listening to like Arthur Russell. I'm listening to like the Vernon Spring like very like totally not related to what I'm doing you know yeah my ex was like that too whenever he recorded and he would have really it would be hard even to have music on in the kitchen yeah totally because it's like you kind of get pulled into a different space I totally I get it I totally get that interesting so you talk about your husband a lot on the record George this and George that and dance with George which I love very sweet and you just got married is that right yes yeah yeah yeah congratulations thank you yeah it was really fun we were in Sicily with like a bunch of friends and it was it was like it was just a party it was a good time I know about George because we have become big 1975 people in our house my son is like yes constantly wearing 1975 merch and he was telling me about George and and what an incredible producer he is as well as being a drummer so how did you meet and how did you start collaborating we knew each other like vaguely through Matty who's you know the singer yeah so we knew each other kind of a little bit through him And then we went on like an Australian festival tour and I was playing, they were playing, a few other friends were playing.

18:20And that's when like George and I began to kind of like be like, oh, like there's a spot. Oh, fun, fun, fun. And then from there we were working on like one song and it just sort of like blossomed, you know. It was very, very like sweet, very innocent. And yeah, I don't know. and it's it's cool like working with him you know I've never I've never been in a relationship with anyone that I've made music with and so at first I think we were both very nervous to collaborate together because I feel like you know you become a slightly different person when when you're in the studio or when you're at work it's like you have your I do it this way I'd like your language and how you talk to collaborators.

19:09And especially with me, my collaborators, I've worked with them for so long. It's such a shorthand that we have and it's very snappy and quick. And so with George, when we first started working together, we were both being so polite. You were like, I want him to still like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now that we're in it, I'll be like, again, booth, let's go. And he's like, don't admit you. So it's very sweet. It's very sweet. But yeah, he's the best. And he really is an awesome producer. actually and I think he just he just worked on this Doja Cat track called Gorgeous with her and like a few other producers and it's like it's really cool like he has he has great ears like really really good so cool taste yeah and is he is he was he sort of a critical part of defining the sound on Brat I wouldn't say like defining the sound is that you yeah that's me and definitely like A.G.

20:04Cook, who is a collaborator across like the whole record. But I would say the two of us kind of like spearhead it. But George is really good. You know, he's just like someone who I will always bounce ideas off. And I'm very lucky to have that, you know. So, yeah, he's he always I really value his opinion. Yeah. And, you know, you talk about like the messiness of the record. I've heard you say like it's a messy record. what do you mean by that like just sort of chords that don't resolve like they're supposed to or lyrics or kind of all of it you know and I think that's the thing it's like the the lyrical content reflects the chaos of the production and of my personality it all becomes this one sort of like revolving door of mess basically I think yeah it's like I it's like I am I'm kind of like a volatile person I'm like all of those things I'm all over the place I'm like dropping stuff all the time you know it's like and I think that is what I mean by mess there's a chaos to the record yeah I think that's also I don't know I think that's like a constant tension in being a woman in society is like yeah there is this incredibly messy aspect to us we're emotional we're creative or collaborative and yeah and like mess comes with that but yeah we're supposed to be also so yeah and and I I gotta say like I love I love that like I I feel that my inspiration comes from all of the different corners of my personality and if I sort of were to dull them down I think I would feel a little bit suffocated like I think I need to really feel everything like times 100 whether that's like a great feeling or a terrible feeling, I don't know.

22:01It all funnels back into my sort of creative core. I don't know if you feel that way, but for me, it's like that's so important. Yeah.

22:15Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

22:45Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

23:19I think my work sort of has more constraints around it, which is why I'm always so interested in musicians and how it works. And, you know, when I used to do lots of acting, I had to wait for someone to give me a job, you know. So now I see my kids, like, pick up a guitar or an OP-1 and they can just make stuff. And I think there's a great agency in that that I am jealous of in a way, you know. And I also think that music allows for much more eccentricity, much more like paradigm breaking rules around who you're allowed to be as a woman. Like I think as an actress, they still want you kind of, you know.

24:07Can I ask you about acting? Yeah. So I just saw Marty Supreme. Oh, you did? I did. How did you get to see that? They did a little screening for me the other day. And it is fucking fabulous. Have you seen it? I have, yeah. It's like no notes. I was really, I went with a few friends. We were really, really blown away. That's so nice. And you're really, you're really excellent in it. And you're funny. You are really, really funny. Thank you. But I guess talking about like, you know, restraint and stuff like that. that you felt like restraint when you were working on that project? Because it feels like a very, I don't know, you're kind of like letting it out, like you're doing it.

24:54How was the process of working on that film? It was great. And I did not feel restraint in that role. I felt like I could be brave. And I think that also comes with being with a director who's very sure of themselves and what they're doing. And so I felt like I could kind of leave it all on the table. My character is so complicated. You know, she's got a lot going on and I felt safe to do that. I think just like when you're doing an actual part, I think there's a lot of freedom. But I think in society and culture, if you're an actress, there's, you know, you're sort of not allowed to be all of the things that you're allowed to be, right?

25:40Right, right. Which is why also I'm so curious, like, so what is interesting to you about acting? You have all these projects coming out, like eight things you're doing? Yeah. Exciting. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, and maybe you felt this because obviously, you know, you're sort of a multifaceted person doing lots of different things. It's like, I've been making music since I was 14. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, I love making music, but I think there was just a point where I was kind of like, okay, I really need to exercise my creativity in a different way. And I found that, as I was saying, I don't actually really listen to that much music ever.

26:26I never really have. But where I've always... Yeah, I don't know. It's like, I just haven't. there are definitely things that I always come back to but in in general I'm not somebody who's like always listening to stuff but what I am doing is I'm always watching films and that's kind of been the case for a really long time and that's always been quite a source of inspiration to me because I think one of the things that I love the most about music is world building and I feel like you know when you're watching a film obviously you immediately fall into a world yeah and I kind of was just like okay if I'm so into watching films what if I tried to be in one you know and it kind of came from there and and you know what's fun is like I am 33 am I 33 or am I 34 I can't remember what I am according to my research you're 33 okay great okay good thank you i'm 33 and when i first sort of went on a set i was terrified and it was so cool how old were you when you went on i was probably like 30 so what was your first thing first thing i did was this movie called faces of death which has not come out okay and it was like a tiny tiny role a friend was just like you should the director was like became a friend and was like just come and do it it's like one day you know and i was get your feet wet yeah and it was like i was so fucking scared it's scary yeah i was like because you don't know the language of you know anything like the marks and like the eye line it's like this whole world that i had i never there's a whole technical part yeah yeah and so it was kind of like a 24-hour like big learning curve thing I had no idea if I was good or bad or whatever I don't know but all I know is that I really I really enjoyed it and so it kind of came from from that one that one moment and then I kind of realized okay actually I really enjoy as well as you know being on set I really enjoy writing and being a part of like building the whole thing and so I think that that is kind of where I'm at right now like you know I really want to I really want to tell stories and I really want to anything that I work on I would really love to kind of grow it from the ground up yeah with you know the the team around it the writers and the other producers and whoever like I I find that very inspiring And thanks to you, I just started watching Overcompensating, which is so good.

29:10So thank you for that. So this is a TV show on Prime that you are producing. And how did that come about? So that show was created by Benito Skinner, who plays the lead in the show. And he was the writer of the show. And we actually met so coincidentally, randomly at a party. Where was this party? It was at Cara Delevingne's house. Okay. I know what kind of party that is. Yeah, yeah. So we met there and he and his boyfriend sort of came over to me and was kind of like, hey, like, we are fans. We love your music. I've got this show that I'm doing. Would you ever consider doing the music for the show?

29:54Wow. And we just kind of hit it off. And I was just like, yeah, just like text me. That was kind of how it began. And then we now have, you know, a friendship that's sort of spanned like five years. I love both of them dearly. And throughout that five years, Ben was, yeah, developing the show, writing the show, selling the show, doing the rewrites. You know, TV is like, I'm like, whoa, like that is hardcore. Yeah, it's normal. You know, it's hardcore. And yes, I was kind of like making the music on the side. And it was a really, really cool process. And I think that show is really special. And yeah, really, really honest, really honest.

30:31It's great. Yeah. It's funny. And it is. It is. It's really the whole cast. It's pretty brilliant. So you also have this film coming out. Is it soon? The A24 one? The A24 movie is called The Moment. And that's going to come next year. OK. Yeah. It's going to be early next year. We're just we're in like the final like tweaks. Final, final. It's the edit, you know. And it's cool. And you're producing that as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that was sort of based on an idea that I started. And it's it's about your tour. It's well, it's kind of it's I suppose it's sort of like a revisionist history of Brat. We like to call it a 2024 period piece.

31:14It's kind of like about I suppose it's sort of about like the death of cool. When something becomes, when something cool becomes commercial and then you sort of lose control over actually what it is. And how it's brought into the culture. Exactly. Exactly. So I play myself and it's like, I wouldn't quite call it a mockumentary, but it's something in the world. Okay. And, yeah, I suppose it's sort of like a music industry satire in a way. Did you have fun doing it? Oh, my God, it was so much fun. Was it great? Is it like Spinal Tap? It's not quite there. Yes and no. I think there's also some really sort of emotional and sad moments within it.

32:07And I think it's really just, yeah, it's sort of about losing control over something that you've worked so hard. to attain. I want to ask you about that because, you know, I think it's so interesting when like you were saying that you did the album, you really did it for yourself. And then it becomes this, you know, hyper successful, super commercial thing, which of course, I imagine has its upsides. Yeah. But the brat thing just permeated the entire culture. Was that this summer or last summer it was this past summer it was it was 2024 okay so right and it kind of like for me I was like when Kamala Harris changed her Twitter thing to the brat thing I was like okay wow this is and I like I wondered how how do you how do you sort of respond to that as an artist well it's interesting because I really really interested in marketing right like it's it's I I'm really interested in product and how people communicate product.

33:18Like I find it fascinating. And also how, you know, like sort of art combines with capitalism, like because it just does, you know. And I find all of the combinations of those things really interesting. So it's funny because as a voyeur, I'm quite fascinated by that. but also when it is actually your own work that's really really personal it does feel quite scary to see sort of like you know like Pret-a-Manger do their like brat version of their you know it's like it's sandwich yeah I don't even know it was like they had a lot of like Pret brat style posters and you know it's not it's no bad thing it's just interesting I'm like oh okay like this has become this kind of like easily adaptable, this thing that can kind of be applied to like multiple different brands.

34:16Because what is it the nucleus of brat? What is the word that would describe what that sentiment meant? I mean, it's sort of like volatility, you know, and mess and insecurity and confidence. I think that's the sort of trigger of it. You know, it's like I think when people are brats, it's coming from sometimes a place of defense and insecurity. That's the performance of it. And maybe it appears confident, but that confidence is there to sort of hide something else. You know, sometimes it really truly is just confidence. But I think that's sort of the essence of it. Speaking of the marketing thing you touched on.

35:04So I read that you read everything about yourself, which is so brave and meta. And like I don't anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to. And then I was actually I kind of like tapped out of that. But yeah, once upon a time, it was brave. Now I'm like, yeah, OK, I can't I can't I can't do it. Yeah, I can't. I haven't done it since I'm like 22 years old. I can't. It's just, yeah. And now with all the social media stuff and, you know, it's just. Yeah. But what I found interesting about, I guess the quote is from a while ago, but it almost – and maybe I'm interpreting something here. But I love this idea that you were sort of able to chew on all aspects of your public perception and not be like impugned or hurt by it but sort of use it to understand who you were and then make adaptations from that point.