Creating the Space for Honest Conversations

0:00I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

0:31Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. I've been in and out a lot lately for work, press and photo shoots, the usual whirlwind.

1:08And I was just thinking about how much I love settling into a real home when I'm on the road. There's something special about staying in a space that feels lived in and welcoming. It makes the experience feel more connected to the place. When I book a stay on Airbnb, I can make simple home cooked meals, have a few friends over and ease into a rhythm that feels more grounded than being in a hotel. And it's such a simple, practical idea for anyone heading out of town. You can host your home on Airbnb while you're away. Your place would be sitting empty anyway, and hosting can bring in a little extra money to put toward future travel.

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2:09Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it, want it, let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go. For me, our soul is like, it's unbound. It's limitless, but we will use words to limit ourselves. When people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves and that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and this is the Goop Podcast. where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you.

2:58And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world. Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. Hi, it's Kiki Korushetz, VP of Content at Goop. I'm excited to introduce today's conversation between our co-hosts Cleo Wade and Nina Westbrook. Nina is a licensed marriage and family therapist, the founder of the digital wellness community, Ben A by Nina, and the wife to MBA all-star Russell Westbrook.

3:40She also hosts a podcast called The Relationship Chronicles, which explores the ins and outs of human connection, love, friendship, work, and more. Her first guest was Kevin Hart, and we can't wait to tune into the rest of the season. Nina and Cleo sat down and talked about Nina's journey toward mental health and wellness, the difference between them, and how she finds harmony between the two in her own life. They talk about the importance of community for our well-being, parenting, having value-centered friendships, and what it means to be able to see parts of ourselves and other people's stories.

4:14Okay, let's get to Cleo and Nina Westbrook.

4:20First of all, I want to say thank you so much for making the time. As I joked when we were offline that I feel that you were out here truly doing the Lord's work. And I'm so excited about your podcast. Thank you. There's so many things I kind of want to start with. But I guess first, I want to talk about your journey towards mental health and wellness and a little bit about your background for someone who might not know you, but would definitely kind of, I think, benefit not only from the work you're doing, but the gospel you're spreading from the work you're doing, which is what I am so in love with.

5:00But I think a lot of the times the wellness space doesn't have people and in the therapy space is just now having black and brown voices really speaking to our communities to say, we do this, this, these tools are here, they're available to you. There doesn't need to be a stigma around them. And I really feel that you're, you know, really role modeling that in an incredible way. So I'd love to talk about where the seed for this come from for you? Did you grow up with this type of energy or? I grew up in Southern California. I had an amazing mom, an amazing dad who always expressed and emphasized individuality, love.

5:51They always instilled in me every ounce of confidence that I could possibly stand. And we were always encouraged to speak up and share, whether it's our thoughts, our feelings, ideas. It was a large part of my daily life for as long as I can remember. So naturally, I became quite good at negotiating and having, I think I like to call them spirited debates with my brothers. I grew up in a large family, had three brothers, and I was the only girl. So that is another huge dynamic in my family that really caused me to be more of the nurturing, caretaking, responsible sister. And that just carried on until fast forward college.

6:45I was playing collegiate one sports, which I now know is very stressful. There are a lot of challenges that come along with that, both socially and emotionally. And I had to kind of figure out how to navigate through that. While I was at UCLA, I decided I wanted to study psychology. I met my husband at UCLA. Before I even entered the campus, I had met him on a visit. And so I was navigating school, life, being away from home, relationship, trying to be an amazing athlete. just a good friend, good daughter, whatever the case may be. It was a huge learning curve for me. I also realized I had a lot of the skills and tools that I needed in order to navigate that as successfully as I did, whereas a lot of my counterparts did not.

7:42I felt like I've always been like a source of information and just understanding for so many people. So that naturally I gravitated into psychology. I went on to get my master's in clinical psychology and specializing in marriage and family therapy. I'm now the licensed marriage and family therapist. And I've been a little bit of everywhere. I've worked in all sorts of communities. I've worked inpatient with clients. I've worked in geriatric units. I've worked in, you name it, I've done it. I like to learn and have experiences. So it was really important to me when I was practicing and, you know, just trying to understand people and connect with people to get a wide array of experiences.

8:33So that's what I did for several years. And now I'm in a space where I have lived in so many different states. I've done so many different things. I've started different businesses. I wanted to figure out a way to kind of share information and share knowledge. And I've been able to do that through my digital wellness community, B 'nai B 'ai Nina, through my husband and I's foundation. It's called the Why Not Foundation. And in many different ways, and now my new podcast. So it's kind of been a whirlwind. But that was a very short version of where, how I kind of came to be in this position. Could you speak to what is your kind of distinction between mental health and wellness and how they are the same, how they're different?

9:26I would imagine the need for them to be like braided into our existence. I think that mental health refers to both our psychological health as well as our social and emotional health. And the difference is that we're typically tending to our psychological health when we're working with a mental health practitioner. That could be through diagnosing whether it's OCD or some type of phobia, which is like an anxiety disorder, or it could be through narcissistic personality disorder or avoidant personality disorder, which are personality disorders. But those are the things that most people are not well-versed on.

10:13And those are the things that we don't really talk about daily. And then we have our social and emotional wellness or health, which relates to our intrapersonal relationships, how we are feeling emotionally and the things that we're going through and how we're coping with them, how we're thinking them through and what our state of mind is. And then our social emotional health, which relates to our relationships and the way that we're connecting to the world around us. Are they healthy? Are we happy? Are they serving us well, our relationships? Or could they be causing tension, toxic or whatever the case may be?

10:52So they're pretty different. I think on a daily basis, we more so experience our social and emotional wellness. and we don't typically touch or tap into our psychological wellness unless we are working with professionals. And then wellness is an action word to me. Our wellness is everything that we do. It's a compilation of all the things we do to take care of our mental and emotional and social health. That could be as much as a coffee break every week with a friend where you You get to just unwind and catch up and have that positive human interaction. Or it could be like any kind of physical activity or routine like yoga and exercise.

11:39And it could even be a five to six minute, five to 10 minute meditation that you choose to do every morning. So our wellness is more of an action and the things that we do to take care and cultivate our mental health and wellness. I feel like a conversation my friends and I are having so often is like, where do mental health and wellness come into the digital space as someone who has created this really beautiful space to share community tools and mental health tools and wellness experiences and ideas, you know, while also like we have this kind of doom scroll that we live in, you know, outside of spaces like, you know, I feel always feel grateful for spaces like your site, Bene Benina and Goop, because I feel that when I need to intentionalize how I'm online, I can do it by searching for things I'm interested in, things I feel would help me.

12:40But those spaces aren't necessarily made to be as addictive as your Twitter scroll or your Instagram scroll. And, and, you know, I guess I'm wondering where should the boundaries come in there, especially even with families, right? When are you thinking about the kids having a phone or if there should be online or what they should see or shouldn't? I love your perspective on that as a family therapist and a mom. As a therapist, I think that mental health in the digital space it's not sexy. You know, we're not drawn. Everyone's like, Ooh, let's go see what mental health messaging we can see today.

13:20I think that, like you said, you have to be a little bit more intentional about it, but as far as social media and all of the information that we're constantly getting, I think that there's a way to curate your social media experience by following accounts that make you feel good. I'm following accounts that don't make you feel good and sharing what you do find on social media and what you do see on social media that, that gives you an additional boost of energy or uplifts you in any way or motivates you in a positive way, sharing that so that other people can then potentially have that same experience.

14:01It's that spreading the gospel thing, like you said earlier, right? There are always going to be things drawing and pulling us in that are not so good for us. But I think maturity comes into play, education comes into play a lot. And so if I'm putting my mommy cap on and I'm talking about maturity and social media and digital wellness when it comes or as it relates to kids, I think each kid is different. Each family is different. The rules are going to be different. But as far as what we do know about social media and the impact that it has on us as I would like to think that I'm like a stable, healthy, like minded adult, and I can still be impacted by the things that are said and done on social media.

14:52So even having all the tools in the world in my little toolbox to cope and manage the stress or whatever it is that comes from social media or that, our outside world, it's kind of impossible to expect a child or someone of young age that lacks the emotional maturity or maturity in general overall to navigate successfully the world of social media. So it kind of just depends. Again, depending on the age, everything is good in moderation or can be okay in moderation as long as there are guidelines and stipulations in place that will help to create a safer environment, a safer space. Personally speaking, I would love to keep my kids off of social media as long as possible.

15:40The cell phone thing, I don't look forward to the time where I have to figure out what is going on. And I'm like, I can already tell how different my kids are. So one might be okay on social media and not be as negatively impacted by everything that comes along with it. And then I have another one that might fall into some of those social media traps. So it'll definitely be something that another experience and transition when it's time, luckily my kids are four and six, so I have a bit of time. I think it's also interesting because what we do know for sure is that social media is addictive. And historically in our cultures, we protect children from addictive things.

16:27It's just that usually they were addictive substances. So, you know, we would want to protect them from addiction, from things that like, until they have the maturity to have some type of moderation with the substance or obligations outside of the substance where, you know, you might be like, I've got to go to this class in the morning. I've got to go to work or I've got to go to whatever. So maybe I can't, you know, drink tequila all day and not really understand what that does to my brain and body. I think what we don't have enough is like the addiction conversation. I wonder around protecting kids from it as almost an addictive, you know, mental substance in a way.

17:09That's a really good way to look at it because we, unless we can physically see something, a lot of times I think our society has a difficult time computing it. Even though what we do know is that it is addicting, everyone is not privy to the information and the side effects and all the things that are happening to these kids from and due to social media. I think it's up to parents and principals and school directors and everyone to kind of band together and figure out what works best for their particular set of kids and communities of children. and try to carry out the rules and implement things to protect them, rather than it being like a whole federal thing and depending on other people who aren't really within the community or experiencing what we're experiencing to deal with it.

18:13Because I feel like unless you can see it and it's in front of you, people just aren't paying that much attention. chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more can make me feel like a spectator in my own life botox on a botulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine it's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month it's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment prescription botox is injected by your doctor effects of botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking breathing eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

18:50Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

19:21I had this amazing guy named Casper on the pod last week who has these kind of famous papers out of Harvard on the decrease in religion in the United States, especially with millennials. So we often also forget that in the past, like I'd say almost a hundred years, you kind of had these social institutions and spaces that were, you know, as far as dividing church and state, Like, but now we'd say could be spiritual as in like there's yoga centers or rec centers, but there were these community places, whether it was a YMCA or whether it was the JCC or Jewish community center or your church, where they were places where, you know, the kids could go in the afternoon and the older folks could go to make sure that they had community as senior citizens.

20:07And in the, this decrease of kind of religious activity and the shutting down of a lot of the institutions that really, I think, benefited society with that. We also find that, you know, that was its own social safety net. We often, I think, think that the only social safety net we are ever going to get is from the government. Yeah. Well, you know, the largest one is as far as a social one, but then we have the interpersonal, the community, I'd say social net, safety net, which has to be our families and the kind of aunties and uncles who aren't related to us, but care for us. And, you know, I remember growing up and being like, if someone couldn't was like looking for my brother, riding his bike as a teen, you know, our neighbor would say like, he went that way, do you know?

20:54And, and we don't live that we're not quite living in that with that sense of community. Right. Right. And so I wonder, like, do you think that that's something we should aspire towards is almost to, as a way to, you know, that's like something I think every single person could do to contribute to the mental health of the next generation is this kind of, I don't know, contribution to spaces like that, whether it's with your time or your money or your talents. Yeah. What you're saying is so spot on and, and, you know, COVID didn't help and all of the isolation didn't help. And the boost in mental health pathologies and, and, and depression and anxiety and everything that we saw as a result of COVID didn't help.

21:45And I think that's because when we are at our best, we're operating within a community. There's that old saying, it takes a village to raise a kid. For example, I was actually talking to Sophia Rowe, who said that her definition of mental health and wellness is community. She said, if you don't have community, then you're sick. It really impacted me because we are social beings. We're humans and we're meant to be in and within communities. We thrive and we do better when we connect with others. And through vulnerability, we're able to do that by asking a friend for support or asking a neighbor, like, where's, have you seen my kid?

22:34And we're just like communicating and working together in order to reach a common goal, which is, you know, in a community setting is we're raising kids where we want them to be healthy, happy humans and be successful parts of our community and be able to give it back to and pay it forward into the community as they get older. And we are lacking that. And I do think that there's a significant shift and change when those community spaces are not available and those resources are lacking. And it's unfortunate, but I feel like people have to really understand and see the value in it and make the change and make the contributions, like you're saying, to connect with the people in their communities through.

23:23And there are institutions in place, like you said, that are offering these kinds of spaces for people in their community, but they have to be supported, like you said, whether that's through physical action or financial contributions. But most importantly, the understanding and the education of it all always comes first before there can be like an active change. Right. There has to be an awareness, which is why we want to spread that that mental health awareness. Even people would be surprised to know all of the things that go on at your local library for your kids, for your community. And what I hope for is that if, you know, COVID kind of really plummeted us into this space of hyper isolation on the heels of a loneliness trend, what I hope are over or how we correct from there is to really double down on these community physical spaces meant to provide for our kids, you know, whether it's different types of free lunch programs, you know, really.

24:35going to your school board and your local city officials and talking about the need to fund your library and making sure you vote for those bills to keep certain branches open and going by your own community or rec centers in your neighborhood and joining them and having your kid enroll in the community sports, I think is also really of huge value. I mean, in my childhood, And I remember seeing my mom feel like she had such a safety net of female friends because my brother and I played sports at the local ballpark. And I don't know that she would have been able to know how to make mom friends if they didn't all have to sit together.

25:17Even for me, sports was obviously, it was a huge part of my upbringing. I met all of my closest friends through sports, but not only do you get to build and establish relationships within sports at any level, you learn how to work together. The tools and the skills that you learn from being a part of a team sport are life skills. You learn how to be a part of a community. You're learning to work together to reach a certain goal. You learn that there are sacrifices. You learn that your neighbor is different than you or your teammate is not the same as you. You get to experience their family and their culture as you spend more time together and recognize the differences.

26:07that make us all who we are. And you learn that you can't do anything by yourself. Right. No, the go it alone mentality is truly impossible in team sports. And I think that that creates that value system you're talking about, which is the need for a teammate to win. If that's kind of in your upbringing early on, I think you're so, you have such a benefit later in life as far as how you are with your friends, how you are at work, how you are with your colleagues, how you are with your family or your in-laws or everyone like, you know, life skills. Yeah. They stick with you forever. And that was one of the things that I have recognized and saw and seen as a pattern.

26:55A lot of the people that I have played sports with over the years, especially at my time at UCLA, they're doing amazing things and they're not playing sports. You know, it doesn't matter what field you're going into when you develop those types of skill skills and that type of mindset, it doesn't matter what your team looks like the skill sets there. And you're going to be a valuable member of any team that you go with that type of thinking. I think speaking of teams, how has it been for you running so many teams right now? Because you have your pod. I'm very new to podcasting. I am not a potter.

27:34I'm a poet, but I, and I know you're new to podcasting too. Your podcast is pretty new. And then you're also running your site and you have a family and your foundation. What I guess are some of the tools that you're using to manage these things? And even like, I'd say the mindset at times, I know for me, I have like the mindset of like the best I could do that day is enough. Like that's my mantra as a mother who has to do so many things to provide for my kids and invest in my, you know, romantic relationship. When I first, you know, had kids, I was always felt this like not enoughness because you feel that, you know, they only know how to want and want more from their parents.

28:21And for me, the mantra of like the best I could do today is enough was like all that gets me through mothering now. And I guess I wonder, do you have certain ways that you're either organizing the day or kind of, you know, maybe not necessarily maybe finding like balance, but harmony with all that you manage? It's challenging. I don't even know how else to describe it. I have all the tools. I know all the things. I am not someone who is afraid to ask for help or support. I know that in order to be able to do so many different things that I have to delegate and I have to also have people in place that can help me I work with a lot of people that are a lot smarter than I am that help me to be concise and be more functional and be more precise so that I'm able to spend my time which is the most important thing to me and the most productive way and where I'm most needed.

29:27So I've been really fortunate to come across some really amazing people that helped me to facilitate everything that I'm doing so that I can take the time to be a mom and host mommy pods or kitty pod outside while we're doing this podcast. And I just have a huge support and network of people. I have a community and I had to build that. I mean, over time, my family has always been a huge support system for me, my husband's family and my husband himself. He's amazing and so hands on with every single thing that we do. We're a really good team. but I just feel like it might, my intuition, just being connected and communicating with all the parts of my lives.