Filling Your Life with Meaning

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1:10When I travel, whether it's for work or just to take a break, I love staying in an Airbnb. I love the charm and how every place feels so different from a hotel. It gives me a sense of feeling grounded wherever I am, whether it's a weekend away in the country or filming somewhere far from home. There's something about waking up in a real home with a kitchen to make coffee in and a living room to spread out in. And whenever I'm in an Airbnb, I find myself thinking about the person whose home it is. While I'm making it mine for a few days, maybe they're off on their own adventure or simply opening their doors for someone else to enjoy the space they love.

1:49That's what I love about Airbnb. You already have the space. why not let it offer something to someone else and let it work for you? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host.

2:09Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it, want it, let it come from the intention of real truth for you, and then let it go. For me, our soul is like, it's unbound. It's limitless. But we will use words to limit ourselves. When people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves. And that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you.

2:57And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world. Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. You're about to listen to the very first episode of the Goop podcast that I recorded in front of a live audience. We were at the Audemars Piguet house in LA, which was exciting, but I would have been very excited to talk to this particular guest in any context.

3:39My friend Shiza Shahad is an entrepreneur, an activist, an investor, and a world-renowned impact leader. She is the co-founder of the Malala Fund and Our Place. She is deeply kind and thoughtful. I really just adore her. And she knows how to compassionately bring people together, particularly around the dinner table. I'm so honored to share her on the podcast with you today.

4:13I've never done the Goom podcast after two glasses of wine so we're gonna see how it goes but I do want to thank you all for being here and as always community of women is a very powerful thing and it's actually every type of collaboration that's meaningful begins in community begins in friendship. So I'm grateful. Thank you. I'm friends with her actually. So I've always wanted to hear you say that. Oh my God. I want to thank you so much for being here and all that you do Shaza. I think I was really excited about this. Although I, I was looking forward to doing it from the comfort of my own kind of pajamas at my house when I do the Goop pod, but it's amazing to kind of share you with this group because I think that so much of what you do is about the ritual of getting people together.

5:02I think it's the root of how you've created what you've created. And I kind of want to start with, I guess, your root or the kind of seed of your experience, which is your mother. And my mom is here today. Shout out to Lolo. So I know that you were born in Pakistan and your mother's who taught you how to cook. And I know that you've kind of expressed the same sentiment that Gloria Steinem has also said, which is that most women are often living their mother's unlived dreams. And I'd love for you to expand on how you're doing that with Our Place and for all of the work you do in investing and the kind of purpose-driven work that you do.

5:42I'm so honored to be here. Thank you, Cleo. You know, my story definitely begins with my mother's story. And my mother was born into a very traditional Bakasani family. She was the oldest of four girls, was taught from a very young age that she would not get to pursue higher education or build a career, that really her only options in life were to be a wife and a mother, was married to my father when she was 19 years old, met him for the first time on their wedding day. But my mother and father were remarkable in that they made the radical decision to set their children free. And that meant working incredibly hard to send us to the best schools in the country.

6:23I grew up in Pakistan, but I had a relatively good education there. And my mother also kept us out of the kitchen. And I always thought, you know, every time there was something cooking at home, she would say, oh, don't come in here. There's hot oil. And I always thought it was because she was afraid I would get hurt in the kitchen. And it was really only later in life that I realized that the kitchen had been the source of oppression for her and her refusing to let me in was her way of saying go out there and study and build and create and and setting me free now she didn't contemplate that I would at 18 7 ,000 miles away to the United States to study and eventually to build and that I wouldn't be able to feed myself.

7:12And so this thing that was, you know, disempowering for her, cooking became a source of empowerment for me, learning to cook, choosing to cook, reconnecting with my heritage, my culture through food, that which was a source of oppression for her eventually would become my path to liberation. And I think the key difference there really was that choice. It's also really amazing, this idea of being able to take ancestral trauma and alchemize it into your purpose. And so this idea that you can kind of take what was your mother's dust and turn it into your goal is so powerful. And I think so many people can resonate with this idea of finding, I think it's freedom in the unlived dream, but I think it's sometimes I don't know what makes me more sad.

8:08the idea that the dream didn't get lived or someone couldn't have the dream at all. Do you feel like, no, do you feel like, you know what your mom's dream for herself would have been, or she even felt like she could have a dream for herself beyond the kitchen? You know, my, my mother is a remarkably resilient woman and she's living her best life today. She now runs an orphanage in Pakistan. I thought you were going to say she was in Beverly Hills, like getting her nails done. I swear to God. I mean, I try. I'm always like, come visit me. I'll send you a ticket. She's like, you guys are fine. There's 130 kids here who need me.

8:50So it's a little hard to convince her to visit. Mom, please visit more often. We still need you. But she, you know, she found her path to her purpose. And I think that's what's interesting is it is never too late. Our journeys are not linear. And, you know, we're taught purpose is a thing, you know, that we discover when we're young and it's one thing and, you know, it's a straight shot from there. And Mozart was composing when he was three years old. But for most people, I think that notion is very oppressive and purpose is something we all deserve. Meaning is something we all deserve and we can find it in different ways at different stages and it can look different.

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10:15And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces, booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. I feel like I've written about this before, which is that I don't think everyone has a singular purpose. I think that it's much more realistic and actually makes you feel better to consider the idea that you can bring purpose to truly anything you want. And this idea that purpose is always within your power to give to something.

10:59And in that, I guess I want to think about, you know, was your mom always kind of service oriented? And do you think that that is what led you to wanting to kind of create, I know most of you probably know Shiza from our place, but she also created Malala's fund with her. Are you the co-founder? You're the co-founder. And so do you feel that that's the example of, because I feel that most people who saw service do service. I think most people who witnessed listening do listening. I feel that most people who lived with talking at do talking at. And so do you feel that service was a way of life in your household growing up?

11:38And that's why you were moved to kind of build a structure around Malala's story to help other people? I would say yes and no. So my parents never pushed me into a path. they just you know they raised me with what I call benevolent neglect I was the last kid I was the youngest kid the other two had done fine and so they were like all right well I guess she's going to be fine if we feed her and clothe her and you know love her yeah and they did and I think for me there was this stark contrast of the life that I had and the time and place that I was growing up and I was growing up in Islamabad it was a post 9-11 world there were barricades going up down the street every day because of terrorist attacks.

12:25You know, women, Pakistan is currently ranked the second worst place to be born a woman. And I want to say that with nuance because I think I'm conscious I'm speaking to a room in the West about women in the East and, and it's not black and white and women in the East have powers and freedoms in some ways that women in the West don't and vice versa. But Pakistan is ranked the second worst place to be born a woman. and there is a realness to that. And I think I had this contrast of my experience, my freedoms, my safety, and the experience of so many women and girls around me. I also had this experience of being young and showing up and no one stopping me and realizing how good it felt to help and to do something that felt meaningful.

13:14right I was a teenager with this sort of vast nothingness that I think we can experience in adolescence and vast meaningless we can experience in adolescence and many times in life and I was like mom I got an internship I'm going to carry medical supplies into a women's prison and she's like sure sweetheart you know be home you know I won't even say I had a curfew call me if you need anything yeah whatever yeah come back and I had this experience so young and then I I worked for an organization providing microloans and microenterprise to women raising themselves and their families and their communities out of poverty.

13:52And then there was a huge earthquake in my country. And I worked in a camp every day to help survivors of the earthquake. And it just filled me with this sense of purpose. And I think, you know, I know a lot of people here have children and there's this desire to sort of guide them. And my parents didn't guide me. They just didn't stop me. And I think what we often do is, you know, we're walking on the street. Our child sees someone who's unhoused and says, oh, mommy, this person, can we help them? I'm so sad. And we say, oh, don't worry. Don't worry. Right. We're teaching them. Don't worry. This is not your problem.

14:32Someone else has got this. And so I think we lose this sense that I can make a difference. And I just think I was lucky in that that wasn't taken away from me. Wow. And so is someone snapping? Justina. So Malala is 11. You are 22. You're living where? In California? So Malala is 11. I'm 19. I'm in my sophomore year at Stanford. I come upon a video about a girl who's fighting out for girls' rights to go to, speaking out for girls' rights to go to school and I think I have to help her so I find her father's number through organizers on the ground and I say hey I'm a student at Stanford and I think I can help and he's this wonderful generous man who says would love your help and that summer he brings his daughter and 26 other girls to my hometown in Pakistan.

15:31And we create this secret summer camp for school girls from this part of the country where girls' education is under attack. And it's four years after that, that Malala is attacked by the Taliban. At the time I've graduated from Stanford, I've taken my first job out of college at McKinsey. I have a five-year plan. I'm going to, you know, build my resume, I go to business school and I get a text message about what's happened. And of course, I'm immediately just shocked and heartbroken. And I fly in to be with her and her family. And thankfully, miraculously, she recovers and comes back stronger than ever.

16:12And really, I have a decision to make in that moment, which is, do I stay? Do I help? Do I try and make the world care beyond the news cycle? or do I go back to my five-year plan? And I was 22 at the time, ended up quitting my job, moving to New York with a suitcase and starting the Malala Fund and was hard and beautiful. And, you know, one of the things I'm most grateful to have done and really sort of at 24 witnessed her go up at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony and become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize winner. So, but it all started with, you know, this being in my dorm room and seeing this video and saying, Hey, you know, I think I can help it.

16:55Is there any way I can help you? And I really do believe change is so local and grassroots. Yeah. And it's also, it's just so, I don't know about anyone else here, but I had a really visceral feeling when she said, when your parents see someone who might be a part of the unhoused community and you want to say help or do something and they say, no, no, no, no, they're fine. They're fine. And really kind of speak for you or brush over your desire to be a part of the solution. And then I think it becomes harder and harder as you grow up in the world to feel like, what could I do? How could I help?

17:34But it actually started with those small moments. And it's also really incredible just that the sentence, and I hope that everyone can take this sentence with them into tomorrow, which is how can I help? What can I do? Because when we do that, I always feel like I have, if someone's talking to me about something, I'm like, you should come over. I always think about that. It's like, you got to get on my couch. You got to get in my kitchen. Let's talk about this. My friend Diara is very much like that too. And, and, and it does, it really does make a difference because the more tight knit, I feel like we are in our smaller kind of social or inner circles, the more powerful it is when we try to build something because that's the foundation.

18:17Yeah. And so how did you bring this into cookware? Wow. Cause it's a, it's a big, everything feels like a big jump so far. I feel I'm like, Oh my God, what, how did you get there? And then all of a sudden it's like, you're walking down Abbot Kinney and there's our place and what? Well, none of it was planned. You know, it is this sense of, I was working at McKinsey. I was, you know, supposed to be creating spreadsheets when I quit my job to start a nonprofit. And I think being exposed to entrepreneurship at Stanford growing up, where I grew up, I had never really seen a female CEO. I didn't, there's no word for entrepreneurship in my native tongue, Urdu.

19:09And I know, Claire, you talk about radical imagination. You know, I couldn't even see it, but getting to study at Stanford, you know, on a scholarship paid for my woman. I wouldn't have been here otherwise. I saw that there was another way to bring change. And I love the nonprofit model. I've worked within it for a long time. And I believe it also has its limitations. And so I knew I wanted to build a business that was rooted in impact. And I'm an immigrant. My partner is an immigrant. For both of us, we literally found our place in America by cooking food, having people over at our home. We have an absurdly long dinner table.

19:54It fits 16 people. There's two of us in the house. And she doesn't invite you Come for dinner a lot. Yes, come for dinner, everyone, please. And sharing stories. And I have always believed that food is deeply connected to identity. I was talking to your mom about it and your upbringing and how food was a big part of that. But food really is the source of, you know, when we cook, we are reconnecting to our body, to our food systems, to our culture, to our communities. and when we looked around we just didn't feel like there was really you know in the industry a lot of recognition for perhaps the value of all of our cultures right and Italian food is amazing and French food is amazing and Pakistani food is amazing and Mexican food is amazing and they're all deeply nuanced and complex and you know at our place we celebrate Christmas and Easter and winter new year and shabbat and ramadan and there just seemed to be room for a brand that really celebrated and was rooted in culture and we also felt there was room to bring in products that were clean that were non-toxic that were sustainable and our place really became for me i think this very personal journey in moving to america finding roots creating a sense of groundedness, building community, and really expressing what is possible.

21:23Because I think the immigrant experience, and not just immigrants, I think, you know, all of us, we move places, we move people, we move ideas and identities and beliefs. That is a lonely experience. But on the other side of that is so much joy and possibility and curiosity and reinvention. And I think that's a lot of what ArtPlace has really stood for. So did the idea for how you felt you could create impact through collaboration with different artisans come first? And then you kind of went backwards to say, I think doing it in this space with cookware. Because I think that's a really helpful thing for some entrepreneurs is like not saying, I think some people start with the problem you want to solve.

22:13And some people can also start with the impact you want to have, and then you can go backwards from there. So which one do you think you had first, or was that a kind of parallel path? I would say it was sort of a collection of moments and insights. So, you know, the understanding that there was the possibility to create a brand that really spoke to culture and how personal that felt, you know, to start with for me, but now also for our team and our community and understanding of the industry and where we felt from a product design perspective, from a wellness and sustainability perspective, there were huge gaps and holes that we thought were, you know, was time to fill and design differently.

23:02And then I think, you know, with a business, it really is, there is a sort of big things we do, right? We've donated over a million meals. We create collections that honor specific cultures. We collaborate with artisans and communities. And then there is sort of the series of decisions you make every day. And when you are building a business, especially one that hopefully scales and grows, you get to make so many decisions every day and you can make better ones. And that impact adds up, whether that is, you know, building a diverse and inclusive hiring pipeline and culture or working with partners that you believe in or donating or, you know, reducing your carbon footprint.

23:50There is just this vast ability to personally, and then also with your leaders build a culture of let's make better choices so that we have better impact. You know, I got to be building a nonprofit that did so much good in the world, but as I build my business, it scales and it grows fast and it employs so many people and it pays them well and it takes care of them and it reaches so many consumers and our ideas and words, you know, reach millions of people. And there is just this ability to create real reach. And then every decision is something you can consider. Since you never saw a female CEO or even had the word entrepreneur in your language growing up, what has been the most kind of unexpected part of this journey for you?

24:49I mean, even though it feels like you kind of thrive on the unexpected, but what do you think you kind of move through or where are the, also even the parts in which you have to give yourself the most grace, whether that's through criticism, through critique, through hiring and firing, through hoping something worked out and it didn't. Well, I see them now. I see the amazing women CEOs and artists and chefs and designers and creators in the audience. So I do see them now. And that is hugely important to me to be seeing and surrounded by and learning from women that I admire. So while, you know, in part, the journey started somewhat alone, it is not anymore.

25:33And I think, I think it's important that we fill our lives with women and people who inspire us. I think that's essential. I think on the criticism part. You know, we've been knocked off and duped and, you know, there's a Reddit forum on my accent. And I think that working through that is, and I mean, I feel silly telling you any of this because you are so vulnerable and you put yourself out there in ways that, you know, I do not yet have the courage to do. And it inspires so many, including me. and I hope to have your courage, but I think building your center and building the sense of groundedness and home and people you love that you can come back to and learning to start to tune out the people whose opinions don't matter as much.

26:30And I think understanding what is, what matters to you so much that you will expose yourself to that anyway, right? Because you know, when you put your words out there, people will say mean things. And most of it is love, but there is just cruelty and unkindness and misinformation. And, and I know that if my business continues to grow and scale and succeed in the way that it has, you know, we see the cycle with the press and female founders, we put them on pedestals and then we drag them all the way down for being imperfect while we are not holding male founders accountable. And so, you know, I've thought about it because I was taught to be likable, right?

27:17I think most of us were. I know for me, it was about survival. I was, you know, there were not that many examples of women living on their own and earning a living. And so I had to be liked to survive. And that is deep, but unlearning that and then learning that even if the criticism comes, this work is worth it and I would choose to do it anyway. And then what, you know, what comes, what come. I think that's such an incredible answer. And also such a reminder that leaders are learners. I think it's, I think so often there's such a pressure if you're leading in any field to say, I'm the person who has to have the answers when I'm actually the person who's brave enough to learn in real time in front of a group and the group being my company or my peers or whomever it may be.

28:12And I think you are very brave and have a lot of courage actually. Thank you. What advice would you give to someone, whether it's a woman in this room or a government leader, if they want to support women and girls, would you say it's mentorship? Would you say, or woman mentorship, if you will, would you say that there's certain funds they can contribute to give time to? There's great organizations to donate to. I think mentorship is, is huge. Um, the recipient of the scholarship, I have been through high school, through college. It changed my life. Actually, when I first got my scholarship, I was like, really, you want to pay this much for me to go to Stanford?

29:00Cause I could just go to like a basic college and that would be cheaper for you. But you know, the, the woman who funded my scholarship wanted me to have the same education her, her children had. And I couldn't fathom that because I had grown up in a culture where, you know, if you were paying to send a child to school, it was, you know, not a school that cost that much. And it changed my life. I think mentorship is very big. I think, you know, in our organizations, how do we hire, promote, and support women? I'm proud that our place is not just female founded, but majority female run and built today.

29:39And I think it makes us really good at what we do. And then I think the last part of this is, you know, if this is something you're really deeply passionate about just getting involved locally. I think change can be very theoretical when it's, you know, giving to charities incredibly important, but if you're donating, if you're largely connected through the, to the issue through your laptop at a distance, it's hard to know how to really make a difference. But the moment you show up, you know how to make a difference, right? The moment you show up somewhere, it's like, well, here's what's needed.