Finding Your Person (with dating coach Amy Nobile Messing)

0:02When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world.

0:58Here we go. My guest today is Amy Noble Messing. Amy is an author, a sought-after dating coach, and the founder of Love Amy, a service where she helps people build their online dating strategy. In our conversation, we explored Amy's path to becoming a dating coach and how to create a dating strategy based on core values and intentions. What I found particularly intriguing about Amy's approach is that it goes beyond providing tactical advice and asks, why haven't you healed? What are you projecting onto others? What internal work do you need to do to truly be ready for a relationship? We also talked about her first date roadmap, ways for reframing rejection, what ghosting says about you, and how to know when you found the right person.

1:50Ultimately, Amy's work is about helping people examine what's beneath the surface and paving the path for a better, more conscious view of love and choosing a partner. So let's get right to my chat with Amy Noble Messing.

2:07As you know, I heard about you through a very close friend who has employed you to help get her dating life more optimized, I should say. And so I was like asking her all about you and how you work. And I just was super intrigued by the holistic approach that you take because it's not just tactical, like, oh, your profile needs to look like this if you're doing it online. But it's like, what have you not healed? What are you projecting on the other person? What do you need to do internally in order to actually be ready to date? It's such a novel approach. So can you tell me how did you find your way to this profession?

2:59I think the last time I saw you, I was saying, like, if you would have told me eight years ago that I would be a holistic dating coach, newly married to the love of my life, who I met on Bumble, and starting this, I just, I would have laughed hysterically. And that's sort of, I love that Steve Jobs quote, like in retrospect, the dots connect, you know, they always do. So I've co-written a few books, all designed to empower women at different points in their lives. And in the course of writing the last book called just when you're comfortable in your own skin, it starts to sag. Very true. Very true.

3:32And we interviewed hundreds of women across the country. And in the course of interviewing these women, and this was around 2017, it started to dawn on me like, oh shit. Like, I can't write this book in good conscience and not take a look at my own marriage. And why do I feel like it's okay to just feel okay in this marriage? Like, there was nothing egregious, but I knew there was something more for me. And it was the hardest choice I'd ever made in my life. As you know, it's like my kids are around the same ages as you, boy, girl. And they were preteens at the time, and they were just so pissed.

4:10I mean, it was awful. I actually used the words conscious uncoupling when I told them. My son was like, what the F does that mean? And him and everyone else. But it's genius. I mean, he just said, show us, don't tell us, right? Show us how you're going to do this. Wow. That's very profound for a boy too. Oh my gosh. Yes. This generation is so far ahead of us in so many ways. what were the things about your, how you were feeling in your marriage that led you to kind of have the guts, right? Because it's like, I think we all have such a kind of entrenched idea of who as wives are supposed to be in America and what that looks like and the responsibility we bear.

4:59And it's, it's like almost like a real, how dare you to even contemplate, am I fulfilled? in this? Is this for me, you know, or is, or, you know, is this for me forever? I would love to know for you, like, what were the things, what were the set of feelings that you were having in your marriage that led you to believe that it wasn't right, or it wasn't enough? For me, I realized that who I was becoming no longer fit the structure of the marriage. And that's the spiritual journey I talk about. I feel like everything in your life can be a spiritual journey. Dating can be a spiritual journey. But there came a point at which I was looking at my life in parallel, like different tracks.

5:48Like my spiritual journey was over here. My marriage was over here. My kids were over here. And what I realized - Did you feel like you had to compartmentalize all those things in order to sort of like have one dovetailing, you know? Yeah. I did. I did. I mean, did you feel that way? Did you ever feel that way that you had to sort of compartmentalize? Yes, I did. I did. I mean, I, I was just so, it's so funny. Like I was just so desperate to make my first marriage work. Yeah. Um, I think because I just, you know, no one, almost no one in my family is divorced. You know, all my best friends from kindergarten through high school, only one is divorced.

6:34Yeah. And I just felt like I, for a long time, I didn't even let it be an option. And so because I had removed the option of, I don't have to stay here. I, I think I had to splinter into a lot of different things in order to just, you know. And I think that we, we feel like we can't possibly have it all. Yeah. And it's, it's become a status symbol. A long lasting marriage has become a status symbol. Yeah. It's something we wear. It's true. true it's something we wear as a badge I've been married for 32 yeah you're totally right right and if you survey our parents generation so many of them are so unhappy and they continue to stay in a marriage so what are they modeling for us you know we have pretty crappy role models bless their hearts right and then I was doing I was sort of on my own spiritual journey at the near the end of my marriage.

7:35And I realized like, this was a really good match when we were 25. Yeah. Like such a good match. I was, and I know you can relate to this. I was like a people pleaser till the day I die. Like that was my whole identity. And my ex great guy, he really needed to be taken care of. Yeah. We were such a good match. And it didn't even occur to me that I could be with someone who I was completely inspired by, who was completely whole on his own, you know, who, who, and this is, I call it visioning with my clients. We sit down and vision all of these things, but I, I was envisioning someone who it would be a competition to ask about our day.

8:17No, you tell me, no, you tell me, you know, to, to, to find someone who would make my wound his love language, you know, not just the reverse. It's sort of like, so unbeknownst to me, I was sort of already putting the scaffolding together for love, Amy. Like I had no idea I was doing it, but it dawned on me. And thanks to Nancy, my therapist, who on one Tuesday morning literally looked at me like, hey, Amy, you're ready. You got to do this. Thank you, Nancy. And then off I went. But, but often to this abyss of feeling terrible, feeling shameful, you know, feeling like, oh my God, like I have done something so horrible.

9:04I had before Nancy, I had a therapist who I promptly fired. He said to me, you realize that getting a divorce negatively impacts the DNA of your children. Right. And I literally like, I was like, okay, Sally, you're fired. so yeah I tossed myself out of a 20-year marriage and I was also leaving a 25-year best friend who I was also in business with oh wow because often I think when you make these big choices you have to reimagine your life and you have to cut cords accordingly yeah and that was I literally felt like I was falling into this abyss oh and everybody around me I don't know about you in your experience, but everybody around me was like, okay, good luck, sister dating sucks.

9:54Like dating in midlife, like, are you kidding? You know? And they only had these horror stories to tell. I didn't, I really didn't have that many single girlfriends who had amazing stories to tell. And so I just felt like, okay, here we go. And I have this nerdy, I think you might too, like a nerdy quasi social anthropology brain. Like I'm curious about people. I'm curious about human behavior. So I had to sort of step back and take a breath and say like, hold on, like something's missing. Like Bumble has a hundred million users worldwide. Like I am terrified to try online dating, but there's gotta be a method to this madness.

10:31Yeah. You know? And you know, like I would, I tried to kick it old school. Like I would go into Starbucks and everyone's looking at their phone. I'm like, oh, wow. Like we're not meeting people in aisle six anymore. Like I felt like I landed on Mars. I'm like, Oh, people think you're a weirdo. If you try to chat them up in line, you know, at CVS. And so I turned to the apps and I was like, I'm going to crack this code. I'm just going to do it. And it was really interesting. I give a lot of talks. And when I, sometimes I'll put up my original Bumble profile as like the first slide and it's horrific.

11:06Why? I made every mistake you can make. It was like party girl, Amy, like, oh my God. And then I wrote nothing because here's what I realized is that we had been bred to want to be chosen. It is unbelievable. Here I was falling into this trap of, I want to appeal to the masses. I'm this, I'm just, I'm a good time. And I wrote nothing. Can you imagine? I mean, look what I got, right? And so I would start to go on these dates. and then I realized I don't even know who I am. Like I actually don't know what I stand for. And, you know, I was mirroring and matching people. If they love sports, I love sports.

11:51Like it was this insidious chase to be chosen. And I had to pause date. It's just so, it's just too, like, I think we all just can relate to this so much, you know, And also, since you had met your husband in your 20s, it's sort of like, I think in a way, part of your development gets frozen then, right? It's like - Oh, totally. So now you're out in the world as a middle-ish age woman, and you're still in that mindset of like, I want to be chosen. I'm thinking about the wedding. It's like, we are programmed to think about all the wrong - All the wrong things. We play the tape. Like we go on two really good dates and we're literally playing the tape like, oh my God, we're going to get married in Italy.

12:41This is going to be amazing. He's going to fit in with my friends. I really had to take a step back and recalibrate. Like what are my core values? You know, what do I stand for? And also why am I mirroring and matching? I don't, this is not about being chosen. It really dawned on me that it's all about being aligned. We're dating all wrong. and we've been conditioned to date all wrong. This is, it's not about being chosen. It's about being so uniquely you that guess what? You're not going to be for everyone. You're not going to be for most people. Right, right, right. So reframing rejection, rejection's good because it gets people out of the way so much faster.

13:24I mean, I sit in front of my clients all the time who are crying buckets of tears over feeling not chosen, feeling rejected. Even my clients want to be chosen by guys or women or men who don't even like them. They just want, because it's, we have been conditioned for towards achievement. So it's an achievement. So it's like, I have clients who have Excel spreadsheets of their dates. And when we go over, when we, we kind of Monday morning quarterback the dates, I'll let them blather on for 20 minutes about how they think the other person's really into them. I'm like, how did you feel? They're like, what do you mean?

14:06Did you like them? Are they aligned? And so I have this whole sort of ideology around, I call it the three, four rule, but it's by the end of the third date, we have to know four things. Okay. It is chemistry, by the way, chemistry can often work in reverse. People don't understand that if you have butterflies. Your nervous system is probably askew. So it's chemistry, core value alignment. You have to ask questions. You have to know who you are and what your core values are, and then ask questions to see if you're aligned. Is this person emotionally mature? Which is like just so pivotal. And finally, are they ready?

14:46Are they ready for the same kind of relationship that you want? So you have to step back and do all of this thinking first. Then once you get this down and I kind of like, I mock, I do mock dates with clients, then dating can become fun because you're two human beings detaching from the outcome. And you're just like, hey, what's up? What's going on? At Goop, we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect. That's why we're drawn to Convene. a global hospitality brand reimagining work in meeting spaces centered around design and care. Conveen's sophisticated, purpose-built locations are designed to inspire connection, whether it's a board meeting for 10, a team off-site, or a workplace membership that gives you and your team a home base.

15:38With hospitality at its core, every detail is taken care of, so your in-person time feels seamless, elevated, and intentional. If you're looking for a new workspace or planning your next off-site or meeting, schedule a tour today at convene.com. And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. Yeah, the detaching from the outcome part sounds really critical because, you know, even if I go back and think about dating, you're so right that the orientation was around, does he like me?

16:28Is he going to choose me? I can pick the wedding. And I, and I, I chose a couple of real humdingers, like totally how just like everything that you just said in your three, four rule, the answer was a no, like a really hard, hard, hard, hard now, but I hung on and I tried to make it work and I tried to fit the model and all that stuff. Yeah. So when, when somebody sits down with you and like, well, I had, there's so many, I want to double click into so many things you just said, because like, so tell us a little bit about like that freeing up from the seriousness. And this has to be, because that to me sounds like the biggest unlock because we do go into, you know, even like, I remember when I was single and, you know, someone saying, oh, I have like, I have somebody that I want to send you out to dinner with.

17:22And you're like, who is he in this and that? And, you know, it's like, you get so ahead of yourself and it's like, why? So how do you, and I feel like it's so innate. So how do you get people to step out of that paradigm of like, I'm chasing this guy and also the fairy tale at the same time and into the fun part? Yeah, it's such a great question. It's my very favorite part because when I sit down with a client, either in person or on Zoom, and this is where my witchiness comes in. I am an intuitive and I've now embraced that part and brought it into my work. Love it. I can see. Yes, I know. It's so much fun.

18:01I can actually sort of see right through their masks that they're wearing. And I have this really long intake form that they're filling out. And so we're reviewing it. And so I can kind of see through the masks and I can sort of start to see, you know, where they're performing and then I can start to see their magic, you know, and I say to them, being lovable is your birthright because the common thread through all, all of my clients, 25 to 81, mostly women all over the country, They won't come to me saying I feel unlovable, but my intake is designed to sort of help them unearth it. And that's the truth is they feel on some level unlovable.

18:47Don't most of us feel like that? You know, it's a great question. I think we do on some level and it stems back from childhood. It stems from, you know, your parents or maybe betrayal that you've had. but that is a huge block. And part of my job is to unblock that and help people understand that the things they think make them unlovable are the things that endear people to them. So give me an example of how that goes. Like, so like you, you start to unpack the things that are covering up their perceived unlovability and you kind of really go there with them. And like, I have a great example. I have a client in New York right now, and she's a senior vice president at this very well-known financial firm.

19:33She's beautiful. She's all of these things. My clients are all complete rock stars in every way. And she presents herself as so intellectual and she is whip smart, all of the things. She has the most wicked sense of off-color humor, which is just my favorite thing. And it's awesome. And, and she loves to dance and, you know, her, her dating profile was, was like, I see it all the time, just a vomiting of your resume and trying to be what you think others want to see. And, and she started dancing. Like your morning routine is the most important thing in your dating life. What you do in the first six minutes.

20:10And I have this five, five, five rule, but dancing is pivotal. Like dance to one of your favorite songs every morning. She started to unlock this childlike part of her that actually is what is making this guy she just met fall in love with her, you know? And it's like, we, we somehow take that part of us, the playful, like on my intake, who are you at seven years old? Tell me in detail, what did you like to do? What did you like to play with? What were your weird voices? What were the, you know, make believe characters like that unlocks something for everybody. And I love that question on a date.

20:47Who were you at seven? It's like, you're, you're on this date. Everyone looks so great, you know, and, and what is your brand of humor? You know, those kinds of questions. So for me, it's helping someone understand that their birthright is being lovable and that they can return. I'm just helping people remember who they are. Absolutely. And unpack all of the armor and all of the masks that we've put on and we think we should be wearing. Which we all kind of need to do anyway. And it's nice that dating is sort of a forcing function in learning how to do this, right? Like getting back to who you are.

21:26I mean, I feel like this in my work life all the time. Like I'm just so, I've been working like so hard for so long in such a crazy way. And I'm like, who am I? Like, where's my joy? What am I, what are you doing? You know? Well, you just said the, the, the word, the magic word is joy. Like what, how do I spark joy for myself? And like love attracts love and fear attracts fear. And if you are steeped in this, like this prison of, oh my God, I'm, I'm, I'm behind, I'm behind. Everybody has love except for me. I'm doing it all wrong. Then you are blocking the flow of amazing, great energy that you need to connect with somebody.

22:06And so it is like, you know, that feeling when you're just like belly laughing with your best friend over like some off color joke and you're, you know, what if you could approach dating in that way where you're just like so embodied. You're so yourself. And part of that is never, never go on a first date. That's five hours long out to some fancy dinner when you're doing your hair. It should be 30 to 45 minutes. I call it a mini screener date. And you are just showing, I mean, I met Brett, I was right off of a workout and we met at Joe and the juice on the Upper East Side. and it was 45 minutes.

22:42And by the way, like, it's just to see if there are any alignments at all. And then the second date, go for it. You can like, you know, do your hair and it can be a real date, but so if there are no alignments, you don't have to go on the second date. But what I want to know is because sometimes, you know, people will say like my picker's wrong. And that's really because, you know, there was that great article in the New York times a while ago by Alan Delon about why you will marry the wrong person, right? Because we are hardwired almost to marry the parent that we are trying to finally be loved by or like conquer that, you know, difficult relationship, whatever.

23:20So a lot of times people will have a date with someone and they'll think like, he's not my type or I don't like him or I didn't feel it, but really it's because he's not a narcissist or he's not, you know what I mean? Yes. I'm so glad that you brought this up because I see it all the time. Single people listening know that it is not going to feel comfortable when you do meet the healthy person that is aligned for you. It's not, it's not going to feel comfortable. I hear it all the time. I don't know, Amy, like, Oh, I just feel like I saw this bald spot on the back of his head. And I'm like, okay, now you're stretching, you're reaching, you're trying to come up with anything you can.

24:04You just, once you give over the process to the alignments and your higher self, which is, you know, you're not trying to perform. You're not trying to people please. It's like listening to tapping into the intuition, then you're good, but it's not going to feel comfortable repeating the pattern. However, feels really good. Like I can fix him. I know how to do this. This is where I've earned my love in the past. And this whole like narrative is just like humming in the background, you know, and that's part of my job is to, I'm literally like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to do that.

24:41Move away. Yeah. You know, it's, it reminds me of when I started dating my now husband, there were times where I was like, this is so uncomfortable. Like he, he, he's so thoughtful. it made me feel like there was something wrong with him. And I, I remember saying to myself one day, like, okay, if, if this doesn't work out with him, that's totally fine, but I'm not going to let my damage ruin this relationship. Wow. Wow. So I would like be with him. And if I got that uncomfortable feeling, I would sort of run it through a quick filter of like, okay, if you were sitting with Mary or Julia, like my best friends, one of my, you know, and they asked you this, would you be like, ew, this is too much.

25:32And I'd be like, no, I'd be like, this is what your best friend wants to know or whatever, you know? And so I'd be like, okay, like there's no, and I literally forced myself to rewire my brain around, but it was, it was really work. I have to say, like, I think, you know, so many of us are again, hardwired in this unhealthy direction. And, and we do get butterflies when we are meeting the person that's not healthy or not an adult, because it's reflecting some pattern that we're comfortable with. And for me anyway, I had to like in the moment, breathe through it, reorient myself, like make the pledge to myself that I wasn't going to let my damage take over.

26:16And it took a while, but I'm, I'm really glad that I did the work. Okay. I'm really proud of you because most people have a really hard time gaining that perspective. Do you think that Brad on some level, like was sort of witnessing you do that or no? He very quickly knew me better than anyone has ever known me. And he knew that I was struggling with what a healthy present, like partner communicative partner looked like. And so it was great because he became my partner in helping me. So I didn't have to hide it. I would, I could say like, Oh my God, like you're being really nice to me. I'm having a really hard time with this.

27:00And he'd be like, get used to it. I'm going to be nice to you like this forever. I'm going to be even nicer. Yeah. And he, but he would help me, you know, or he always has this way of, if I say something, he's like, huh, why do you think? And so getting I'm like, yeah. So then I would, you know, so, so I have to say like, wow, if, if he wasn't so, cause he's much more emotionally mature than I was at the time, like much more. And I had also picked relationships where it could always be the other person's problem, right? Like they would do something so outsized or it would just be so untenable for X, Y, or Z that I could be like, well, it's, it's, it's all them.

27:42And it wasn't until I was with Brad that I understood how stunted I was and how a petrified of intimacy I was. Wow. I think that's remarkable. And that's what I, when I talked about making each other's wounds, a love language, gosh, he read that so quickly for you. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. So how do you, how do you help people stay in the moment someone has a date and they're like, he was nice, but he had a bald spot and like his jeans gave me the ick and all the stuff. Right. Yeah. So what, what do you say? Yeah. So what we're doing is rewiring our brain. So that's fine and good. And, and I always say, if it's a full body, no, like you're allowed, if it's a full body, like Amy, no way in hell I can't, there's no way that I will kiss this individual, then okay, you get that pass.

28:37I get that. But it's really the three, four rule. Like that is foolproof. Like we're looking for all kinds of alignments, but again, chemistry, core values, emotional maturity, and readiness. If all four of those, if you have all four of those alignments with somebody, there's a good chance that this has real legs. And of course, there's other non-negotiables that everybody's allowed to have a few. Like for me, it was like health and wellness growth mindset. So you're allowed to, and teeth. There was just, I had a teeth thing. I could just see it in, even in the photographs on the apps. I'm like, no bad teeth, can't do it.