Gwyneth Paltrow x Cleo Wade: Remember Love

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1:12When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive, on the one hand. And on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow.

1:48This is the Goop Podcast. bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. For this episode, I got the chance to sit down in person with my friend and podcast host, Cleo Wade. So far I've read Cleo Wade's new book, Remember Love, two times, and it just officially comes out today. My conversation with Cleo is wide ranging, as our conversations tend to be. She told me about the personal moments that led up to her conceiving this book, and why she first wrote on a post-it note to herself, please remember love.

2:40We've talked about how she's made friendship such a central tenet of her life and I got a moment to reflect on what makes her such a tremendous friend to me and many others. Another thing I admire about Cleo is her particular way of making things feel both simple and revolutionary at the same time. She is such a gift for reframing the big concepts of our lives in a way that is so resonant it really allows us to wrap our minds and souls around them. I hope hearing from Cleo today helps unlock something for you too. So let's begin.

3:16I feel like with this book, I've been so confronted with like actually living what I'm talking about rather than like talking about it. There's a few things I feel like I write where I'm like, wow, that was like, I can't believe I thought of that or wrote that. But because obviously also nothing's new in life. Like, you know, from reading a million spiritually rooted books, it's like, all you can think about is like, how do I speak to who people are right now or how do I like whether you're making something how do I make the products or the things that speak to people right now but gutturally people have always wanted the same things or hear the same words and it's all the same but we are just kind of able to interpret it in different ways given technology given how we're communicating to given different types of connection communities and how like you as an artist are interpreting and at that time in your life having like lived whatever and then it resonates differently like through that and by being a listener like you know it's like the first thing you do and I think this is why you have so many amazing friends and create so many cool things it's like you listen first like you don't just like it is very much of the ego to think that like oh my god just whatever I say is going to like anoint those around me.

4:31Most people you really love or really cherish or really feel give you what you need are people who are in tune to your needs and you can't have that type of attunement without listening. And so I think to me, I'm always trying to listen to my friends or listen to like what I overhear on the street or listen to how my mom is not able to communicate with my brother or is or what my, you know, friends that live here are going through in relation to my friends that go here, live here. And I think for this book, one of the things that I feel I've been confronted with a lot lately is that there's one page in the book, and I'll probably butcher it, but it says when the material is at the center of my goals, I find that even if I'm in first place, there's some loneliness there.

5:20Whereas when the relational is at the center of my goals, whether I'm first or last and have the trophy, I'm the thing that's held. And I think this idea that we, like us being held, especially the people who are used to doing the holding or used to being the glue or used to holding the frame, like how do we create work, life, all these things that we try to balance or harmonize, how do we do it in service to being what's held in the end and holding others. And so it's been really interesting even to want to practice what I preach. Yeah. You know, it's funny how life has a way of, it's funny when you were, when you were talking about that before, like that life right now is giving you everything that this book, like the tools in the book sort of, you know, are testing.

6:12I sometimes think about that when I think like oh you know I have this wrong with me like it sort of more in the wellness front like I have this wrong with me and so I'm gonna do a bunch of research and try a bunch of stuff and try to figure out like how to get through it whether it's an emotional thing or whether it's like an adrenal fatigue thing or whatever the case may be and then I started getting paranoid like is it okay to be that person like is the universe going to keep giving me weird things to heal because I'm like the seeker like I don't I don't want to be that and there's something you know a lot of what if I even had to put one undercurrent in the whole of Remember Love, it is that we are just so much more similar to nature.

7:05Like you are just so much, you are so similar to like the tree on your walk than you are to anything kind of like streaming in this man-made world of like our phones. And like in nature, everything is in process and processes. And like online, we process very little and then get into community, which is very, very difficult. And the thing is, is that when you're part of what, I don't know, I feel when you say that is like, maybe what you're being called on is to just have a relationship with repair. Yes. You know, and that like, we maybe were built to break and break down. Just like, you know, I don't think the tree thinks there's something wrong with it when it's leaves fall.

7:48I just don't. And I think that we are seasonal and the life that runs through us is seasonal. And I think that that doesn't mean your lifespan is seasonal. Like I don't actually believe in like the winter of your life, meaning age, but I think that there's winters consistently throughout your year or your years. And I think there's springs and I think there's falls. And I think that the nature of how we interact with our bodies spiritually is something that is very, very natural. And so if we can release the judgment of like, there's something wrong with me or I am broken and replace it with this is different.

8:27Where's like the information in this? And if I believe that in my differences, I find information. Yeah. And I believe that that information can lead me to wisdom. Isn't that the best kind of path? I had such an aha moment like that when once you were doing a talk when we were in Costa Rica and you there was a prompt yeah what was that that was so I had been really struggling with like this whole you know it was like a whole bunch of chronic stuff and I was feeling broken and really debilitated physically which also was really hard I mean it's hard for anybody but I I think when you are kind of pushing back against like the stuff that makes you vulnerable because it's sort of how you get through, you know, it's like I don't want to constantly in every moment of my life be like delving into the hardest parts and like the broken parts.

9:25And so oftentimes how I've, you know, I'm like there's a time and a place for that. But right now I just have to work my ass off and have to be strong and just keep going. and so it was like particularly demoralizing to be feeling for a couple of years like I'm not I don't have my vitality I don't have my vibrancy I'm not the same I'm not thinking clearly like what the fuck is wrong with me and you you gave that prompt with Sade and I had one of those like mega epiphanies where and instead of saying like what's wrong with me what's wrong with me I switched to I am healing. And it like opened up such a gentle, like wide swath of field where I could just relate differently to what I was going through and give myself that grace of like, this might not feel good and it might feel, but it's okay to, and just the power of being able to reframe, which is an experience that I have over and over reading your book, which I've now read twice.

10:32And it's one of your true gifts is like, yes, you know, as you say, like, okay, everything's been said or thought before, but you just have this particular way of like, making something so simple and revolutionary at the same time, and like, helping reframe. And that's why I think your work is so popular and resonant, because it's like you just sort of plug something right into the to the guts and it's like oh I am her she is me I see her she is me like I can do this there's this incredible like galvanizing property in your words too well without lots of shoulds or anything you know well it's really funny because I always like do a sweep for should every time I'm writing.

11:28I always do. I'm like, I never, I do a sweep for should, even if I send a text, like, you know, because I think to me, the thing that people need, cause I know I need it is to be affirmed that where you are is okay. And actually like you cannot heal before, unless you can first be honest about where you are. And so I think so much of why people's healing is either prolonged or their kind of suffering is prolonged is because first they can't say, like, this is what is troubling me and this is what hurts. And like I can't be truly honest about like what hurts and all of the reasons why I could be feeling this way on top of what my body may be going through or whatever.

12:13Because I do think that you do have to begin with self-kindness. And that seems like a really fundamental thing, but it's true. And it is profoundly kind to say I get why you feel that way. And I think that like it's really hard in a lot of our communities where we are just kind of living in really unprocessed ways. And I feel like people are always like, is everything you write so optimistic or how do you get to this place? And I'm like, well, I do really sit to process. And by process, I mean like I go on a walk and I think about it and I call my friends about it. And I really consider why I feel how I feel and what I think is helpful in this moment towards beloved community if I am going to put something into the public space.

13:00And so I think whether it's with this book or whether it's online, I think first and foremost, I just try to be a friend to whoever's reading my book. And that's probably the role in my life that I take the most pride in. And like I really, anytime anyone's ever asked me, like, what are the things you're the most proud of in your life? I do say my friendships and I include that in the one I have with my partner and even my tiny little kids. I'm just so proud of the ways that I can be a friend to them, see them for who they are, meet them where they're at, give them space to grow and change, you know, meet their kind of suffering or moments of insecurity with nonjudgmentalism so that we can kind of ride it out.

13:40And so I think part of, to me, why so much of the work maybe translates to other people is because I don't think I'm really different in my writing than I probably would be to my closest friend. That's true. But it's hard. I do think what's missing is kind of the self-kindness, though. I think that's the, if anyone, I'm sure you get that all the time of like, what's your number one self, you know, care, whatever. And I'm like, well, damn, first and foremost, start with being nice to yourself. Like, can you just be kind? Because through kindness, you can find your real need. But if you're bullying yourself or judging yourself, it's like no matter what you think the need is, like, that's not it.

14:21Like, you might think it's like, I don't know, personal trainer, this therapy, this did it at all. But you end up going to the wrong therapist. You end up doing the wrong thing, like the thing that's wrong for you, you know, because you didn't start from like, they're there. At Goop, we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect. That's why we're drawn to Convene, a global hospitality brand reimagining work in meeting spaces centered around design and care. Convene's sophisticated, purpose-built locations are designed to inspire connection, whether it's a board meeting for 10, a team off-site, or a workplace membership that gives you and your team a home base.

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15:42I always say forgive yourself. Because, God, the layers of guilt and shame and self-harm, the things we say to ourselves, like, I think it's quite radical to really actually forgive yourself. and I'm not I haven't you know there are times when it works and there are times when it doesn't work but when I can let go of that like let go of that punitive you know like squashing down yeah and just say you know yeah I'm I made that choice that I don't feel good about and I I forgive myself and in fact you say I think in the book too do you say that every day you've sort of like the Hawaiian forgiveness prayer you say?

16:32Yeah, I do. You do. I do. I do. I'm like, may I forgive? May I do? But one of the things that like, even if, because you know, something I really, I feel I learn a lot by being someone who works mostly with words is like, what words people struggle with just even when the word is said. Like what are they? So forgiveness, I think is hard. Vulnerability, I think is hard. Shame, I think is hard. I'm sorry is hard. Like these are things that people have really, really long charged relationships with and so sometimes it's like even sometimes instead of like forgiveness I'll say let yourself have a past like and so there's this one I didn't expect to do a poetry reading on the goop pod but I'm going to and it says it's called everything that's happened there are some very large letting goes to do people places honeyed and bitter phases of life.

17:29There are some even larger letting goes to do. Anger, tears, parts of yourself that leave with no return. Have a past. Everything that's happened cannot be held today. And it's like, to me, that is self-forgiveness is saying like, everything I've been through lives in there. And it is somewhere even if like, you know, I have this relationship with letting it go. But it's like I'm not going to hold it in every moment and in every conversation. Therefore, like the places where I have a relationship where I'm figuring out how to forgive myself, I don't have to be confronted with them in every conversation where I'm like, I got triggered by this thing because I've had this thing happen to me.

18:11Let yourself have a pass. Let yourself have things that do not live with you in every present moment. Because when you do that, you're free. You're also in that you can live in contradiction, in that you can live a life of multitudes and varied colors and everything doesn't have to be in this kind of binary of black and white or wrong or right, or this part of yourself makes sense with this part of yourself. You really get to liberate yourself from everything you've gone through. And I think to be able to do that in this life, even if you can only do it for a moment at a time, is a worthwhile act.

18:51And we can give ourselves the permission to sort of be reborn every moment. Yes. I feel like there was a really profound moment I had. And I think, you know, it's so weird because I keep being like, I didn't share any parts of this book with my friends as I was writing it, but I think I did send you this part. As I was writing it, there was this page that is when I was pregnant, this healer had said to me, your daughter's birth will be your rebirth. And I had never considered the idea that we are reborn many times in this life. Like I'd considered reincarnation and understand that kind of soulful connection you have because your backgrounds are totally different or everything about you is different, but you're just connected to someone.

19:35So I believe in those kind of previous lives landing and joining today or in this time. But I never thought about the idea of being truly reborn and being new, like phases, yes, like different eras, if you will, sure. But the idea of rebirth, meaning that you go through a time of being born and you're so fragile and everything's so different and you need different things and the same people don't make you feel safe. Or, you know, there are people that you feel really attracted to being around, Or there's like, I think it creates this catalyst of all these different things you shed because you're just a different person.

20:19And I wish that I would have had that type of language of like, no, I'm going through a rebirth when I didn't have, you know, quit my day jobs to write. And I wish that I would have had that. I think even sometimes when I moved to LA, even though it was a time I had my kids where I was like, my relationships, a lot of the ones I have just feel funky. And there's a shed happening and it's a reshifting happening and it's not a rejection of any one specific person but a just overall blanket need for really warm energies that make me feel okay in my own fragility. And I just wasn't afraid to have those needs, I guess, in that moment, though I struggled with having them as far as like, oh, I'm a bad person.

21:05Is that mean? Or like, oh, I know their feelings are hurt. And what point is like, you know, if you're trying to get away from hurting someone's feeling, but it leads to your own self-betrayal, like how does it, you know, how are we supposed to walk that balance of like wanting to be the kind person, but what happens when you're the kind person to everybody but yourself? But I wish in that moment too, I would have been like, no, I'm having a rebirth. And it just would have been nonjudgmental all across. And I wouldn't have even had to, I wouldn't have had to judge myself especially. So what would you do next time if you felt that or if you felt like, for example, there were?

21:43I would emphasize that I'm clear on my needs and I understand if it is hard for you, for the other people. Instead, I was kind of like, I'm busy. I can't. I don't want to. You think of these other, you almost try to build your case rather than just being like, I'm clear. I don't need to complain or explain anything because if I'm complaining or I'm explaining, I'm not clear. And when I'm clear, I can give context and I can give love and I can keep it moving. And so I think in the next kind of rebirth, I would just emphasize my clarity and that my clarity is never something I live in to harm others, but to actually respect myself.

22:33Yeah. Beautiful. And there also is a difference that having a rebirth, even if you're not calling it that at 21 versus 27 versus 35, like we, we learn so much along the way and learn so much about who we are for, as you say, listening. Right. And, and I do think that we should give ourselves the permission to reimagine, okay, like, who do I want to be in this? I always think in chapters, you know, because when I look back, I think, oh, that was that chapter I lived, you know, in elementary school in L.A. And that was a chapter of high school in New York. And that was, you know, the chapter of living in London.

23:12And I think we do live in chapters in a sense. And I've had these huge rebirths at the end of every single one of these chapters. And what I would maybe add is it's chapters and perhaps there's like part one and part two and part three and part four. maybe those parts represent the rebirth and like the new kind of story that like happens where it is a part of the same book but it just is very different than part one which still had 20 chapters sure you know and so I think that this idea that the volumes the chapters exactly like so that we can just be I think you know you and I talk about this all the time it's like how do we just liberate and feel as free as possible and I think whatever kind of metaphors or things you need just expand them as much as possible so that it's really you you're really letting yourself say it's okay to feel how you feel and you're likely not alone definitely not you know no so when we started talking you were saying how this book is like 25 about friendship yeah yeah is that what you said kind of it is that what she said oh yeah i'd say friendship relationship yeah it's true phil phil back me up yeah i'd say that it's a big i'd say that so the book is in four parts and the first part is called eventually we get there and that's kind of all about really it for anyone who's just in the thick of change maybe feeling lost maybe feeling like Like somebody put their light on a dimmer and they're just wondering how to kind of find it again, find their kind of brightness or light or love of self.

25:01And I think part in part two is called Worthy Rebellions. And Worthy Rebellions is all about this kind of like, how did we, how do we have big dreams, go after our big dreams while also centering the things that will likely give us long-term joy and, and even personal safety, right? Like that's what community does. I think I emphasize love in my writing. And if I had to give love certain pillars to help define it, I would say safety is one. And in safety, you find community. So I really love to speak to community because I feel that that is how we find love together and in our own personal experiences.

25:48And so for so much of the worthy rebellions, we had a close friend have a tragedy in her family over the past few days. And I was saying that, you know, I just kind of, I mean, I know, you know, it's like when you're getting ready to release something into the world, there's so many things you have to do to prepare it. And I just kind of stopped everything because I didn't want to sabotage myself by any means, but I also wanted to be like, where my long-term relationships call on me to be rather than like what any type of, no matter how beautiful or like, you know, you hope everything you make lives and lasts forever for people.

26:29But for your little life, you know, you really know to find your own people and you have to go to them when they, when they need you because all success is short-lived. I don't, you know, and maybe you have multiple short-lived successes, but it is a really, I think material success is, is a, only a journey of highs and lows. And I can tell you right now that if I, I could name 10 of your friends right now that I know, and you wouldn't tell me that you and Mary have had highs and lows. That's real sustaining relationships that help you and love you and are there for you. You just wouldn't say they have highs and lows.

27:08But you'd say your business has had highs and lows. You've said your creative endeavors have had anything you're making that's not relational. And some relationships do, but by the way, some of those are the ones we try to get out of. Yeah. What about in your romantic? Isn't that supposed to, is that supposed to have highs and lows? I mean, Brad and I have no highs and lows. I always thought maybe there's something wrong with us. Well, I would say that you, I think that's a very healthy thing. You do? I always think like, oh, okay, well, we don't fight or yell at each other ever or anything. Yeah, but you know what?

27:41I think with you and Brad, I think that what's really cool about your dynamic is that neither of you need to be provoked for expression. And so I think for a lot of people, they struggle to express themselves without being provoked. Therefore, they create scenarios in which they are provoked. They need to be provoked. That's so brilliant. I think when you're, you know, like you don't like you only need like three minutes for Brad to tell you how he's going to feel. Trust, you know, and like that's why he's such a joy to be around. And like I think you have done so much work in your life to remove the barrier of saying how you feel or being really honest or like calling out the need or.

28:23I've gone too far now in that direction. What did your brother say? oh yeah what did he say he said oh my god yeah I was like I snapped at someone and he's like she bites but you know it is clear and I do think that there's like a lot of respect and clarity because it's actually never mean it is just clear and so I think that that is why clarity and like true secure. And by the way, we can only be every moment of who we are and we have secure attachment. You know, and I think recently I saw some article, maybe it was in The Atlantic, where they were talking about what like a super friend is. Did you see that article?

29:08But they were saying this. That seems very you. Very. They were like the one quality that a super friend has is like extremely secure attachment. Yeah. Like there's not the, if you don't text back, they're gonna be really you know try to either poke at you or or try to under you know all those things of like or it question them like I think this idea that you can trust that like your friends love you and you're not ever taking their actions personally by them merely living their lives yeah it's critical and it's critical even with kids you know it's like you can't feel like the kids love you less if they're not texting from school.

29:49But isn't that sort of like you're just on some level, you haven't resolved your own stuff. So you're projecting or putting your safety or comfort in the hands of other people. I think it's really hard to trust that the love is there for people unless somebody is consistently telling them it is. And I think that like, if we can give trust to the dynamic, and in that it's hard, it's a lot of insecurities you have to work through. You have to work through this insecurity that like, I trust that like, we're cool. And because why else would we be friends? We don't have to be friends. So like anyone could be in community with whomever they want for the most part.

30:35So we're cool. Why would I, like, why would I, why would I inject this with doubt because someone is being in a relationship with me in a way that also works for them and what they have going on. Do you know? But I think that's hard for people. Yeah. So I know you've sort of been in life, as have I, kind of had some friendships that you've moved away from and had to sort of deal with like the repercussions of that. Have you ever had a friend move away from you? I have definitely, you know, liked someone and been like, we should get together. And then they never wanted to get together. Like, you know, it's like, and it's not that, or you have, you thought you had the best time.