Gwyneth Paltrow x Monique Melton: Critical Perspective Shifts

0:00Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

0:30Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

1:03I've been in and out a lot lately for work, press and photo shoots, the usual whirlwind. And I was just thinking about how much I love settling into a real home when I'm on the road. There's something special about staying in a space that feels lived in and welcoming. It makes the experience feel more connected to the place. When I book a stay on Airbnb, I can make simple home cooked meals, have a few friends over and ease into a rhythm that feels more grounded than being in a hotel. And it's such a simple, practical idea for anyone heading out of town. You can host your home on Airbnb while you're away.

1:43Your place would be sitting empty anyway, and hosting can bring in a little extra money to put toward future travel. If you're traveling this season, consider hosting your home on Airbnb and let your space work for you. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host.

2:29Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Our guest today is Monique Melton, founder of the Shine Bright School.

3:12I initially found Monique's work on social media and I was immediately drawn in because she has a brilliant way of forcing critical shifts in perspective. Her approach to anti-racism led me to think differently and deeper about my own unconscious biases, how I show up in my relationships with my Black women friends, and the ways that I can still be more cognizant of the larger historical framework, systemic inequities, and beliefs that we've all inherited and internalized to varying degrees. I'm so grateful to Monique for the ways her work has helped me to question, what am I holding internally?

3:53And for the invaluable impact that line of questioning has had. In my conversation with Monique today, she shares the questions that she's explored in her own life, reflections on her friendships with white women, including her relationship with her best friend, and a few lessons she's learned as a parent. She also talks about why it's so important not to get stuck in shame when you're doing this work, and why we need compassion and curiosity to acknowledge that we often hold beliefs and systems that we didn't establish and that don't align with our true values, but that we've internalized nonetheless.

4:27This is what propels us out of a shame spiral and into healing and action. So the last thing I'll say before we get to today's conversation is Monique is such a joy. She also made me laugh a lot today. Let's get to it. First of all, it is so good to see you. You too. And I'm so happy that we're doing this because I feel like this has been a couple years in the making and finally - It's been a long time coming. And finally we're together. So - Here we are. Here we are. I think it might be helpful if we could start a little bit with your background because I believe you're sociology and psychology.

5:11Is that right? So will you, will you talk a little bit about, you know, what your concentration was in school and then kind of how that has transmogrified into your work today? I'll start with high school because high school is where a lot of my curiosity sparked around the social sciences. I had a really great, for example, anthropology teacher, and that just sparked my interest there. And you grew up where? I grew up in St. Louis in the Midwest. And my husband and I met in high school. Oh, sweet. Weightlifting class. Wow. I have to tell you, our saying is that we've been spotting each other ever since.

6:01Isn't that cute? Come on. It's so cute. Okay. But yeah, so college, I studied sociology, social sciences. And because I decided to get married young, I was 20 years old when I got married, I transferred at school. And so I didn't finish my degree where I originally started. And that's shipped around like credits and all that kind of stuff. So I finished with a social science degree, emphasizing in sociology and psychology. So I love the study of people, of culture, of language, of customs, of beliefs, and understanding also like how we think about things, how we come to establish our patterns and our thought processes.

6:48It's just always been a really intriguing thing for me. And so out of college though, I actually started a company doing makeup. I was a professional makeup artist for like a decade. I wanted to be a celebrity makeup artist. And I did that for about a decade. And after having my son, I wanted to do work that didn't require me to have to leave the home in order to be able to do it. And so I started thinking about things that I'm really good at and what I want to do. And prior to that decision, I had produced a couple bridal shows and I was like, okay, I know I'm really good at marketing. I know I'm really good at business.

7:29I understand sociology, understand the psychology of things. So I started doing business brand development coaching for small businesses. And in doing that, I saw the glaring just need for diversity and equity and anti-racism education. And so the longer I did that and saw that, and as my son was getting older and there continued to be more police brutality and just more and more things happening, for me, it felt like I needed to make a shift and focus directly on anti-racism education. And so I stopped taking all business clients and I said, okay, I'm going to create classes and programs to teach people about anti-racism, how to commit to this work, how to do this work as a daily practice.

8:22And that was quite, that has been quite the rollercoaster, but that's where, that's where I've landed now. You know, I wrote a book and I'm writing a book now and I've, you know, done a lot of things in between speaking, consulting, but now we have the Shine Bright School, which is a global community of people who are committing to doing this work. And it's been a journey. It's been a journey. When you started to identify these systemic gaps and things that needed to be addressed, and you you know you sort of like identified it like a white space right like in because you had a business lens on you were helping with marketing and businesses was there a process whereby you had to identify your own biases or like what what was that work like for you internally like Like, were you surprised by unconscious biases you had?

9:26I just wonder if being an American in general, you know, we're so inculcated with these generations of ideas and we don't even have a deep awareness of or any awareness of. That's a really great question. I started getting really curious. The place where I sparked a lot of curiosity first and it just unraveled everything was around religion. So I was a very, very, very devout Christian. I almost went to study, to seminary school. I was you, me and Jesus walking hand in hand. And so besties. And if you had told me then that I would be where I am now, where I no longer practice Christianity, I would have been like, you don't know me.

10:16Get out of here. You no longer practice or you no longer believe? That's an interesting distinction. I put like a little extract next to it. How do you say that word? Asterix? What is it? Asterix. Asterix, yes. I almost want to say extract, like vanilla extract. We'll put some vanilla extract next to it. That works too. I love vanilla. It's good. But I don't believe how I used to believe. I'm still exploring. So maybe like the blind faith part? Oof, I was so devout. Does that mean you've allowed yourself more questioning? Oh, Gwyneth, let me tell you something. When I tell you I started questioning everything.

11:12Wow, wow. So I got married young, for example. and I technically saved myself for marriage. Mom, don't listen to this, but I technically, I technically saved myself for marriage. And, and, and I use that language because that's very much the language you're taught, you know, to use. He's my first, everything, like, you know, all these kinds of things. And so I started even thinking like, do I want monogamy? Is that for me? And did I want it because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do? Or did I come to choose that because that's what I truly want. And my husband, I'll never forget us.

11:48We were on vacation, just the two of us. And I was like, babe, I want to talk about this. And he, he, bless his heart, but he, you know, he was like trying really hard to hold space for that without judgment and all those things. But I think he was also scared of maybe where I was leading to, Like, what was I wanting to explore? And I realized without needing to explore that that's not for, like, I do want monogamy. But that's what I mean, like, everything, like, why did I want to become a mom? Like, everything was just open for interrogation. And the initial part, like questioning Christianity and that coming to a decision, coming to the decision to no longer practice it was also coupled with the fact that I was in church and in relationships with people, especially white people who were so blatantly racist and really resistant to any conversations about the history of racism within Christianity, the present day oppressive practices.

12:57that don't have to be this way. Like this is actually not in alignment with who the Jesus that I studied. I studied him from a like a historical figure as well as a spiritual and nothing that you're saying is adding up. So that motivated me to just get even more curious, more curious. I wanted to know, I started getting curious around tithing and what does that even mean? and why don't like everything. So then everything was up for grabs. And so that for me, it was extremely disorienting at first because everything that I had really built my life on, I was holding up and saying, do I want this?

13:45Is this, is this me? Is this what I really want? While also still actively working in advocacy and teaching. And, and so I firmly believe in practicing what I teach. So I teach my students to question everything and to, you know, get curious. And so I had to also do that too. It helped me unpack anti-fat beliefs. It helped me unpack homophobic beliefs. Like it helped, it helped me unpack things that are operating underneath. And then you say, oh, wait a minute, that's actually not how I want to operate in the world. So it was extremely disorienting though. I remember feeling like, am I going to go to hell?

14:27And then I'm like, do I believe in hell? Like, like, it's just, is this hell?

14:36right so it sounds like these systems right that are built probably very intentionally maybe some of them unintentionally but to support like american capitalism the way things have worked like those systems are are really in place to keep the status quo as they are yeah and And so when you started to dismantle the religious one, you gave yourself the freedom to dismantle any system that had been delivered to you as a system that you should ascribe to. And so at what point did that really turn to race? how did it go from the religion for me because i'm a black woman it was always about race right right it's always about race one of the books that really opened this up for me that i read is called the color of compromise it's by a black christian theologian which i still am wondering like how are you still practicing christianity after doing all this research and writing this book because this was the book that did it for me to say no to this for me but just it talks about the history of of racism in the in christianity in the at least westernized christianity in the united states and so it was always about race it's always about race it's never not about race and i think what was really interesting was learning about for example the history of anti-fatness and anti-Blackness and understanding the pursuit of thinness and how that has been used as a way to distinguish white folks from Black folks and to justify this racial hierarchy.

16:30And that motivated me to get really curious about my relationship with my body and my relationship with food and to really actively work to heal that. And so capitalism is another layer to that and understanding how the system is rooted in slavery in the United States, the operation of it is rooted in chattel slavery. And so when I think about that, and I think about my ancestors being forced to perform labor, unpaid labor in the most heinous conditions, and how the practices implemented during that time have evolved and are still showing up today, I am very much actively working to be aware of how I pressure myself and how I engage with work, with my time, with other people, and just also the way that we perpetuate it and uphold it.

17:23And so it's definitely a process that requires a lot of compassion. And like I say, curiosity and compassion, because it's really easy to uncover something about yourself that you see is aligned with systems of oppression that cause significant harm to people and to feel shame and to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm a terrible person. How could I be this way? Blah, blah, blah. But that's not really conducive to growth. It really stalls you. And so it takes a lot of compassion and acknowledging like, these are not my beliefs. I didn't establish these beliefs. I didn't establish these systems. However, I've internalized them.

18:05And depending on your identity, you are holding some level of access and power because of these systems. So what do I do next? And that's the part where you can get out of the shame and get more into the healing and the action. And so how do you teach? Like, what is that rubric? Like, how do we start to do that? Well, it's a very, it's a very full process. I'll say that. So for example, we have a program called unity over comfort. And it's this process. Wait, wait, that's great. Say that again. Unity over comfort. It's, it's that girl. It really is incredible. People have told me it literally has changed their lives.

18:54It's designed to help people understand what it is we're talking about, because if we can't get, so the very first lesson is on terms. And we talk about different terms, like, you know, what is racism? What is white supremacy? What is black liberation? Like we, so that we can be on the same sheet of music. And from those, those type of like building blocks, we understand, we start, we explore history of chattel slavery in the United States. And And people are so shocked to learn the things that we teach them because so much is removed from the curriculums in school. And that's very intentional.

19:36It's very deliberate. So I actually have a Black professor from California who actually put the whole lecture series together on history of chattel slavery in the U.S. And that's the part of the program. But we talk about what is white supremacy? What does it look like? how does it function? How do we uphold it? What are the beliefs that we, like we, I really get specific. I want people to understand that these are real tangible things that we can tackle. We talk about what does it look like to be a white person in relationship with black folks, and how do you show up in those relationships in an affirming way?

20:15Because when I think about my relationships with white women, for example, most of them have been really terrible, and not because that person actively sought out ways to cause me pain and suffering, but because they weren't doing their work. And so when you're interacting in these kinds of relationships where there's already a power dynamic that exists and you're not doing your work, the harm is inevitable. So we have those conversations. We talk about healing, like it's a whole process for people and we pulling back one layer at a time. I give them a tool on how to deal with there's shame that comes up, the belief so that you can get back to focusing.

20:55It's a very involved process because this work requires a commitment to healing. And anyone who's ever really embarked on healing as a journey and a commitment knows that that is not a fun time all the time. It absolutely feels good at times, but it is, it's gruesome. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.

21:39Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

22:10Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Can we go back and double click for a second on black and white female friendships? Oh. Because. Oh. Because. So three of my best friends in the world are black women. And then I have very close friendships with other black women. And this is actually what drew me to you in the first place when I found you on social media. I can't remember how. And I started reading the things that you were talking about. And I really, I really encourage everybody listening to follow you on social media because you are so in the best way provocative for white people.

23:10Like, it's so good. It really like when I started reading your posts and, you know, and the discourse that you had in the comments with people, I was like, this is fucking brilliant. Like you're approaching this in a way that sort of like just tears the wallpaper off. And it really caused, you know, for me, a whole series of thinking around like, how have I internalized this white supremacy? And how am I, like, what am I doing in my relationships with my Black friends that I'm not aware of or where there's not, where there's a disparity or like I've internalized stuff, they've internalized stuff.

23:52And I really would love to just spend a little time understanding, like, how do you in interactions or like in relationship, how do I keep that at the forefront all the time? And then like the weird wrinkle to that is, but then am I holding race between us all the time if I'm thinking about it? Or is that a very important piece of the friendship? Well, let me ask you a question. Have your Black friends ever told you something that you've said or done to them that is racist? No. Does that mean they're not being honest with me? Listen, I can't speak for them, but I'm going, I ask you that question because just because you've not been told or been made aware doesn't mean that it hasn't happened or that it's not happening.

24:56Of course. And chances are, now I'm going to say this. So I teach anti-racism education. I teach a variety of topics related to that. I've been in relationship with white women since I was a little girl. I am a very direct, I believe in speaking my mind, and I still have to weigh the cost. if I decide to tell a white person, especially someone who I consider a friend, something that they've done is racist. Because we know that y 'all can respond in such a way that can cause significant harm that I then have to go and settle and deal with myself. So when I was back in my Christian days, I had three best friends and we were all close.

25:56Two of them were, or they are, two of them are white and one is black. One of them was in the room, two of them were in the room with me when I gave birth. So very, very close relationship. And I remember one time she and I, one of them, it was a white girl and we were walking out of the building together. and it was her and it was me we were walking out and this lady came up to me who we both know and she's went to grab my hair and just kind of like fluffed her hands through my hair and I was so stunned I just was like whoa and anyone listening here I hope understands at least maybe on a basic level do not do that and there's a whole like history and a conversation around why specifically not doing that to black people especially but i was so stunned and so we we walked out into the parking garage or the parking lot and we got in her car and she didn't say a word to me about it and i then brought it up because she was uncomfortable or she knew it was I don't think she probably recognized how violating it was.

27:15Which is racist in and of itself, if she didn't recognize it. Right. And so she didn't bring it up. She didn't mention it. She didn't. And so then I brought it up and the conversation went south very fast. Wow. And I remember being so like, even just thinking about it, I kind of, I could feel myself just feeling a little emotional because I remember feeling so sad that this, like, this was an opportunity to center and to care for me. Like she didn't, she didn't touch my hair and she's actually never touched my hair. She didn't tell the woman. So it wasn't her that did it, but you witnessed it.

27:57And when I told you how painful it was that your response to this is now centering yourself and that, that felt so disappointing to me. And so an affirming relationship with a, with a, like I have my best friend is white. She's taken pretty much every one of my classes. if that were to happen with us what I'm pretty confident would happen immediately is she would ask me are you okay what do you need and there have been times where I've called her and I say this racist thing happened to me I need you to take notes and she's like you got it you know like she if there's nothing I could I couldn't there's nothing I could ask her that she wouldn't be willing to figure out.

28:46And she's the only type of relationship I've had like that with a white woman. So that's just like one example. I had another interaction with a white woman who I considered a friend and she blatantly told me that she didn't see me as her black friend. She just saw me as her friend. And she suggested that I just needed to change my tone and that I would appeal to more white people if I changed my tone. And, you know, we, we argued back and forth about that. And I'm just like, I can't be in these type of relationships. How could you tell, how do you tell me a black woman that you don't see my blackness that ended up itself suggests that there is something about it that you feel uncomfortable about so much so that you want to ignore it or pretend as though there are times in which it doesn't matter.

29:34I'm black all the time. I'm always black no matter where I go I'm black and I love that I love being black but when I have negative experiences I'm always aware that my blackness is somehow being used as a reason to to engage in in harmful ways and I need my friends to understand that I don't need you to understand it from an experience standpoint, but I need you to understand when I tell you that something racist happened, I don't need you to argue back with me about, well, maybe I didn't, I was looking at it the wrong way. I've had that happen with another best friend. She, she's like, well, maybe they didn't mean it that way.

30:20I don't need you to do that. Don't, don't ever do that. If I tell you that it's racist, then it's racist. We don't need, I don't need you to validate it. Why does a white person feel they are the expert on racism and can tell me what is and what isn't. I don't need that. It's a lot. We can talk about, I actually have a couple of podcast episodes where I talk about relationships with white women and friendship. I have two classes where I break it down because there are so many pieces to it. I have never felt safe to share about something racist that a white person has done until my current relationship with my best friend.

31:00I've never. So what is it about the way that she shows up for you, the questions she asks that allows that relationship to flourish and to be so safe for you? Yeah, I actually had given up on white women relationships. So I met her at a retreat where there were a lot of white girls. And I was like, what the hell? What did I get myself into? And we hit it off. And I had just decided right before coming to that retreat that I was done with relationships with white women. And so I told her, I said, listen, I don't know about this. I really like you. We had we had like a five hour layover in the airport and we were having the best time.