Gwyneth Paltrow x Nicole Avant: Metabolizing Grief

29:08Does she understand what she's doing? Does she? I know she doesn't mean it, but why does she keep doing this? And then once she said it, that little girl inside was like, okay, she saw it. And she owned, you know, the accountability is really everything. You know, it really is. And then, but my dad had such a different passing and it was so peaceful and at home and surrounded by his books and his music and his art and his things. And it was just, it was such a different time and a different way. And I thought about transitioning to the other side in a very different way. and I was more purposeful with him and making sure I said everything that I wanted to say to him.

29:55And the beauty that I felt great about it, I said to Ted, I said, I didn't have to say sorry for any, I didn't have any regrets with him. I didn't have to say, oh, I'm sorry when I did this. I'm sorry when I said that, which I'm so grateful for. and but I was able to hopefully try to really help him understand how magnificent his soul was especially given what he was given and talk about making lemonade I mean it was you know and and I think part of his healing his trauma through his life was he loved seeing people's dreams come true. That was healing for him. Everyone would say, isn't he tired?

30:37Isn't he tired? I'm sure he was exhausted. But I think he felt if I don't do this, which makes me feel good in the moment, and it does make a difference, and there is a positive ripple effect. I don't know who he would have become, really, to be honest with you. You know, because he would battle when he didn't have a lot of things to do or make something happen for somebody. his mind would go a little nuts. You know, it was a lot of trauma. I mean, being born in 1931 America is, it's, you know, and segregation of any kind for any race, for male, for female, segregation is a very heavy energy because there is really no freedom in anything.

31:20I think people just thought like, oh, you can't sit at a lunch counter. No, it's everything. It's, there's, so you don't feel the full freedom. And again, women of all color, people around the world now, there are women that just feel completely, you know, because of their government, because of their country that hasn't moved forward, no freedom. And he found his own. He found his own. And he gave you guys so much freedom. Yes. And it's important. so what was it like growing up with like uncle bill withers and all these amazing all these amazing artists that you were you I mean we are a little bit similar in that that I grew up in a house with you know artists and famous people coming through and I guess at the time I didn't really fully realize like who this person was or that person but but maybe because mine were all like theater and movie people it was different but I think like the amazing music people that you were it was the best I mean I will say because they were really good people yeah actually they were good people and the music was great at the time and but I did have the only time I felt a little insecure as I got older I remember saying to my brother we have to figure out what we're going to do.

32:44Oh my goodness. I, you know, I, all of a sudden I didn't know. Like when you grow up? Yeah. I was like, what am I going to do? And then I did say, Jerry Moss, random records, he was at the house. I just wrote about this the other day. And he said to me, it was so great. He said, I was 13 maybe. And he said, we were going around the table. I was like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do when you're older? And I thought I was so indignant. I was like, I know that I really want to be my own girl. And my mom looked at me like, And my dad, you know, he rolled his eyes. My mom rolled his eyes.

33:13But Jerry got it. He goes, you really want to be your own girl? I said, yes. And he winked. And he goes, like Stevie Nicks. I go, yes. Yes, of Tom Petty. I go, they have that song. And he said, it was so great. And he looked at me and he said, I knew when you said you really wanted to be your own girl. You didn't know what that meant. But you were going to be your own person. I wanted to own my individuality. And I didn't know what that was going to look like. I think you knew exactly what you meant. You just didn't quite know that you were saying what you meant. I didn't know. But the beauty was because of that moment, he would then send me all these albums, the early releases of all his music and everything that was coming out of A &M.

33:52And I fell in love with the police. And I felt all these great – rock and roll was my thing. But he would take me to the concerts. And he would talk to me about music and the healing energy of music. And just like theater, it's real and it tells a story and you connect with it and you think, oh, I feel that way. I have felt that way. Or, oh, I didn't know that's how people feel at this time in their lives. You know, whether it's heartbreak or celebration or a rebirth of some sort, music kind of is the equalizer for everybody. And it is the universal language. It is. And I think it's a beautiful language.

34:33And then, of course, I ended up working for him. First job out of college, I worked for A &M Records because I found my passion. I just didn't know where to put it. But Jerry, thank God, he would ask questions of where do you see yourself and what do you want to do? And he wasn't pressuring. He was genuinely curious. And I just loved all of their energy. I was very, very lucky to be around people that were doing things. And they also were all very philanthropic people. They were all giving back to something before it was a word to be philanthropic. No one was looking for an article in the LA Times.

35:11People were just serving. People were giving back. They knew, oh, we're really fortunate. And there are a lot of people that we can benefit. So do you think that that thread that ran through your life is why you kind of got into serving and our government and politics? Yes, 100%. Tell me about the evolution of that. Because I think it's, you know, my parents loved politics, and they got involved very early, and my dad thought it was very important. He said, you know, everybody should represent themselves at the table. So, you know, my dad, for example, was like, I can't, you know, why would I talk?

35:51If you're talking about gay rights, you should have gay people at the table. You know what I mean? So he was like, so please don't talk about my rights and then not have someone that looks like me at the table. And so Tom Bradley was the first black mayor of Los Angeles. That was my first fundraiser. Is the airport still named after him? And Tom Bradley International. Yep. And he was this grand being. I mean, tall and handsome and graceful. And my mom had me do all the check-in and write everyone's names or whatever. But I would listen to everyone and everyone's concerns and really trying to move society forward.

36:31And the energy then was very different than it is now. The energy then was very victorious. It was very solution-based. Whereas there was no, I don't, can you believe someone's doing this? Can you believe the Republicans? It wasn't like that. These are the issues we want to work on. And who knows so-and-so and who can get to this senator and who can get to this person? and how can we move Los Angeles forward? And so it was a different time, but I loved every second of it. I mean, Senator Ted Kennedy would come to the House, and it was, oh, this is great. I mean, sometimes I was like, okay, again, how many are we going to have?

37:08But I didn't realize, like, my girlfriend in college, she was my roommate, and I said, I have to go to L.A., I'll be back. My mom's having this thing, and she's making me come, and it's for Senator Kennedy. And I kind of did this. I go, it's like, I've been five times. And she went, what? Are you kidding me? And I said, do you want to come with me? And she did. And I just sent her the photo the other day. And that was 30 years ago. Wow. And she still remembers because she was a poli sci major and she's from South Central. And she studied that. She studied the family and she just studied Senator Kennedy and she was obsessed with him.

37:43So the fact that the universe can just move things around and her roommate's mom just happened to be having an event. And I sent her that photo the other day and it just makes her cry every time, you know? And, but it was good because they were doing things for the people. So you approached your political career probably with a lot of optimism. A lot of optimism. What do you do when you're an ambassador? Like you wake up and what happens? Like, do you have CIA clearance? Like who makes your agenda? Yeah, it's, you know, the embassies are kind of fantastic. And the work that the American people do all around the world, it is commendable.

38:24And people, I mean, every embassy, it's, they're bustling 24 hours everywhere around the world. And, you know, the number one thing is, you know, make sure whatever Americans in the country, you're protecting that American. You care about the American. So as a brand, like you're protecting the American brand? Yeah, and people physically. I mean, it's everything. But yes, I do a class to like there is a class. There is a class, but it's it teaches you different diplomacy skills and people don't have them or camera. And it teaches and then you go into real things of you have a country team. So your country team in most places, you know, you'll have, you know, Customs and Border Patrol and you'll have the FBI and you'll have DEA.

39:08and I had Coast Guard and these men and women really do phenomenal work. And they are a different version of a humanitarian, but they do that work, especially the Coast Guard. They were fantastic. They were all great and they worked really hard and they all do. And it was probably the most rewarding thing I've ever done. I loved working for President Obama. I loved serving him. Of course. I loved serving the administration. But it was still, it was something new. And thank God I had been around ambassadors and been around it. But it was still, I had to get my own sea legs. And I had to figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to be and how I wanted to represent America in the Bahamas.

39:54What did your parents think when you were given that appointment? Oh, my God. They were, I think, again, my dad was in a state of disbelief. but so excited. And my mom was, I mean, she loved it because my mom was all about the title and the, and the bells and whistles, the whole thing. She, oh, I'm going to make your invitations. And we're going to have these flowers. You know, I'm going to have these people come and visit you. But it was great because the first thing she said to me is, okay, where's the orphanage when you get there? And because she was so involved with the Special Olympics and loved the Special Olympics, it was just ingrained in me.

40:33So the first meeting I took was not with a minister, like I should have, but I wanted to meet the president of the Special Olympics in the Bahamas and, and pledge my devotion to him and to all his children. And we worked with them a lot and it was great. And the embassy always did, but I wanted to expand it a little bit and do things on the front lawn and have the kids at the residence. And it was just, it was the best. Would you do it again? Oh, yes. absolutely would you run for public office oh i hate you for asking that

41:10i i have thought about it and then i look at the landscape and i think i don't know because i really don't know where i fit in because i honestly look at everything i go i don't even know where my part where where is everybody but isn't that exactly why it would be so good for you to do it? Yes, if there was a real independent party, I don't know. I mean, look, I do. I love being around politicians. I love being a problem solver, as you know, I'm always trying to find the solution. Yeah. And I'm always trying to be fair and see all sides. And I do love serving the people. So you're built for it.

41:47If it's if it's in the stars, then I won't say no to it. But I really don't know what I would run for. There's just... Let's discuss. Yes. Oh, gosh. Not right now. We can put... Okay. You know, you just reminded me of when you were, was at a fundraiser when your dad, your parents, you know, that was the only time I met your mother. I know. And... She was very excited to go to your house. She goes, I picked Gwyneth Paltrow's house. I said, oh, did you, mom? And she said, you're not going to be in town, but we're going to Gwyneth Paltrow's house okay and you're and when we said hello to them your dad told moses that he was barack obama which i love it's so clear and he goes oh her little son was at the front door and i said i'm barack obama he said no you're not he said he said he just chuckled but i love that you come then we came full circle i know and then he was able to see moses as a teenager oh yeah you know And really be in his life.

42:50Yes. And music. And he just loved your children. So I wanted to ask you two, because it's so inspiring to be around other couples who are in good marriages. Yeah. And, you know, obviously no marriage is perfect and we all have our ups and downs. But, you know, you and Ted have this very, very strong bond, connection, friendship. And I wondered if during this past couple of years, like, has sort of the point or the purpose of marriage become more clear to you? Like, how have you leaned on him during? I thank God for Ted, as I'll start saying, because he, as you know, I mean, he's solid. Ted is just, he is, he's a solid person.

43:47Yeah. And he shows up for anybody he loves. He's a good man. He's a good man. He's a good man. He really is a good man. And he, he sees everything and feels everything. and this was very, you know, his father passed away on November 12th. Suddenly, we got a phone call the next morning on the 13th that his dad had passed away in his sleep. It was probably a heart attack or something. And, you know, his dad was happy. He was, you know, he was in an assisted living place, but healthy, you know, physically healthy, can move around, had girlfriends, you know what I mean? He was great. And it was very, it was just such a shock of, we just weren't, we were planning his 80th birthday.

44:34So we were planning for a couple months after to do a big 80th. And I kept saying to Ted, I go, I don't know, I think we should do something before. And it was just so weird. And then we got this call. And then I watched Ted, you know, grieve, really grieve. And he's a junior, so he's named after him and he's very close to his father. And then two weeks later, he wakes me up, get to Cedars, your mom's been shot. But I was planning, so the conversations I was having with my mother that week prior to the intruder breaking in were all about Ted Sr., all about she wanted to know what flowers you're getting, purchase these flowers, make sure everybody gets to take an arrangement home and do this on the menu.

45:21And she was so into it. And she said, you know, I'm going to, I'll try to fly up with you guys. I think I can if we get back at this time, because I, you know, I've got to go to the tower where my friends, it's okay. And then when this happened to my mom, so I was in the middle of planning his funeral. And then this happens to my mom. So I couldn't even go to my father-in-law's burial because I was just in the thick of it. And I really looked at Ted one day and I said, we have to make a commitment to each other right now because we both know statistically this could go really the wrong way and we would have every right if we just if everything just kind of blew up and it's too much but we didn't sign up for that we signed up for the mountain and the valley and I'm going to be with you and you're going to be with me and we looked at each other every night and we said we don't know how we're going to get through this but we are committed to each other that we're not going to leave each other's side and we're going to let each other grieve in our own way and we're just going to truck through it it was and watching him leave to go to his dad's funeral was I just felt I didn't feel like a failure but I just thought I can't I can't believe I'm sending him off by himself with the kids I mean at least but then I was able to call our daughter Sarah and I said Sarah you've got to be me now.

46:45You've got to get, I want you to get there, get organized, be early, say hello to the guests. I became so my mother to Sarah. And she did. And everyone called me and they said, Sarah was the full, beautiful adult woman that she just kind of stepped into it and did her thing. But it was hard. I mean, it was because it was close to my mom. I mean, she, showed up for his kids which he loved about her so much all graduations birthday parties and all their friends you know she invested in them so did you guys kind of just sort of take turns falling apart and then being there for the other one and we had different kind of Ted's grief is very quiet and very introverted and so I would see his grief on him more and mine was a lot of screaming sometimes and wailing and or if he'd ask a question it would trigger something and I was like what are you talking about why would you you know and it was and we both had to figure out the rhythm of our grief yeah I had to figure out his rhythm of grief and he had to figure out my rhythm of grief which was probably the most that was the most difficult to really because my dad's was my dad's grief was different.

48:08Ted's grief was one way, mine, the children. So it was a lot of everyone had their own way of looking at each other around the table. Do we bring mom up? Do we not bring her up? When we bring her up, do we have to tiptoe around dad? How do we do this? Yeah. And also, I don't know, in the book, you mentioned sort of people feeling the need to come up to all of you, especially your father and express their grief over your mother. or something. It is, I was thinking it's complicated, right? It's complicated. I've done it. I have, I have not seen someone and I'd say, oh my gosh, I've been meaning to call you and I wanted to say, I'm so sorry about your mom.

48:49We all do that. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather or whatever. But I had to learn also, and I've learned through this. I was like, oh, I'm so sorry for all the times I've said this to people because when people get up and out and if they're out. When And it's tender. Yes. They're out, though. They want to be out. Right. My dad wanted to be out. He wanted to be out with his friend Irving and Shelly. He wanted to celebrate them. And he was excited. And then, but human nature stepped in. And so there was a lot of, oh, my God, Clarence, tell me what happened. I haven't seen you in 10 months.

49:25How do you feel? And then I just watched him shrink. And then he became, I don't want to come out like this anymore. The big concern for him was, is this my new identity now? That my wife was murdered and this is so tragic, this tragedy happened. Is that the only thing people are going to see? Or are they going to laugh with me again? Are they going to want to have lunch with me and talk about their children? Are they going to want to move forward with me? So I think that we had to find the rhythm in that. And then when I did explain to one person, I just said, listen, I've done this too. I'm not judging you.

49:58I've done this. Or I've identified a friend or made it about whatever challenge she was going through. I'd make a birthday toast. And I think back now and I cringe of, I made the birthday toast about whatever challenge she was going through and she overcame instead of her birthday. Right. Instead of her birthday. So what's the right thing to do then in that scenario, right? I think, you know what helped me a lot? I loved in those situations when people would come up to me and I could see the trauma on their face. but they would come up and they'd put their hand on my back and just say, I love you and your family so much.

50:32I love you guys so much. It is a healing balm like no other. I love you is everything. The text that just said, I love you, don't, I mean, the way you and Candice and everybody showed up was that, which was, okay, we're not even asking you anything. We're going to do what we know is necessary, what we feel is necessary, and we're going to let you figure it out. But the beauty of that was it didn't give me an agenda to then figure out what everybody's purpose was going to be. So the beauty was that you guys kind of just landed as my original first responders and just landed at my house. And I loved, I remember you and Candice, I remember you guys sitting at the kitchen island with your computer out.

51:20And I said, well, don't you have work? You're like, I'm working from here. I've got to go up and take a shower and go do this and we'll cook lunch but all those things of everyone showing up with such love and then using love as a verb doing things and being love and doing love and that was very very healing to me and but but the the text that I receive of I love you and when people said that when we were out or I love you and your family or I'm thinking about you or I'm praying for you. Those were great because it just covers what you're feeling. And then the other times, just tell me what happened again because I can't wrap my head around this.

52:02But again, it's not to hurt you, but it does rip the scab off. So to be mindful. Yeah, just be mindful. And again, I've learned that the greater the tragedy, the less said is the best. just the less just don't just i love you that's really good advice yeah just i love you checking in just you know but the it's it's it's because it's so traumatic and it's so heavy that your brain has to figure out where to compartmentalize everything and where to put it what file to put it in and you know i would go back to the file and why why why why this and and you know that you're never going to get the answer.

52:47And then you're back in the, your nervous system's back in the trauma. I mean, I had veins that I never even knew I had because they were all just bulging out of my body because there was that much stress and overthinking. I mean, I replayed that evening over and over in my head as if I was there. It was part of the trauma. It was weird. I didn't know that was coming, but it did. And then, and then in about nine months it left. What is the way through like for somebody listening who's you know traversing a really difficult or traumatic or grief-filled moment or chapter in their lives like what is the best way through something like that I actually think the only way out of anything is going through it so really going through it so doing the work, you know, getting the help you need, talking to somebody, somebody really great that can move you from, because none of us like the valley.

53:48The valley is horrible, you know, and life is not full of mountaintops. We have mountaintops, but we, our lessons are always in the valley, always. And the valley is tough. And I would say that it's so worth having the intention to heal your past and then take the energy and create a new future. It is so worth it. It is not easy, but it is worth it. Your life is worth it. My dad always used to say, life is for the living. It sounds great, but it really is. And being alive is challenging. Being alive is beautiful. Being alive is a blessing. And being alive sometimes feels like a curse. It's all wrapped up.

54:30You think about everybody who came before us, people in your family history and everybody who has struggled in some way and injustices put upon them, whether you're black or Jewish or gay or anything. And you look back at the history, and that has helped me a lot too, which is when you look back at history and really study it and honor it, there was obviously a mindset of these groups of people. You're back to resilience where we started. They did not give up. They thought about us. And by the way, we are the promise sitting here. We are the promise. We're actually sitting here with our rights and we're free.

55:13We're friends. This was not easy. This was not easy to get to. People really got hurt. Some people died for this. A lot of people died for this. So it's real. So I think history helps a lot, too, of, you know, how do we get through this? And then sometimes you don't even know the answer. You just have to have the intention of, I used to say to myself all the time, I still do. I don't know how I'm going to get through this. But I'm just going to have the intention that I'm going to put one foot forward and let's see where it gets me. But it's more than that with you because you have incredible faith.

55:48Yes. Like of all my friends. Yeah. It's everything for me. I mean, faith to me, if I didn't have my faith, my friend Jonah and I always say, ooh, he calls me and he's like, girl, what would we do without our faith? And we would be just down and out, down and out for the count. Or even Amy, you know, sometimes I'll text Amy and I'll say, I'm doing this. She's like, Jesus, take the wheel. I just give everything to the divine. I try to align myself with a higher power. And I think anybody, for them, it's, you can call it whatever you want if you want to say it. It doesn't matter. There is, you know, I want to align with the creative energy of the universe.

56:30Because I think it's a phenomenal energy, obviously. And it is. And I do think it's a force of good. And yes, people do bad things. but I don't believe that when people say oh well you know if the universe is so good why do people do bad things well people do bad things because they choose to do bad things people sometimes misuse their free will and we've seen people come from the worst circumstances and who've created beautiful lives for other people for themselves or significant lives or lives of gentleness and kindness. And then we've both seen people who have had everything in the world given to them and are miserable.

57:19And that's a choice too. You know, it's a hard thing to say, but it is true. I mean, and I, you know, this is the thing. I am an optimistic person. I think my soul is genuinely optimistic. Very much so. But I am an optimistic person who also sometimes gets very sad. And sometimes I feel like giving up. I'm still an optimistic person. I just feel like giving up. And I feel like shutting down, or I feel sad, or I feel betrayed. I still go through the human emotions, but I have to decide first who my soul is and how I want to show up in the world and not the icing like, oh, I want to wear these clothes and do this and work here and do that.

58:02No, who is a person as a soul? Do I want to show up as in the world? And I think that has helped me in my faith for sure. I mean, I do pray every day. I meditate every day. And I believe me, I notice a difference when I don't. Everybody around me notices a difference when I don't, when it does help with patience and it helps with being merciful. Yeah. You know, because I have to remind myself, oh yeah, we're all human. This is, you know, my mom was great at that. I'd say, why would they do this? She said, I don't know. Why are you not good at this? And she's like, there's no judgment. Everyone's going through something.

58:36You know, like I say in the book, my grandmother used to say, everyone can throw out their problems on a table. And I promise you, when you see everyone's problems on a table, you are going to rush to grab yours back because you don't realize what people are going through or different challenges. Our culture now is so focused on the icing and the flashing lights and the martinis at the beach, but it's not about the cake anymore. It's not about the soul. And, you know, to your point, like something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is in terms of this humanness that you're talking about and how, you know, we are supposed to be all these things and we're supposed to be in grief sometimes.

59:21And we're supposed to be shitty to people sometimes. And we're supposed to be incredibly generous and gracious other times. Like to be on this planet is to fully, you know, run the full spectrum of what it is to be human. And even understanding that like the worst thing that you can imagine a human being doing like what befell your mother like sometimes it helps me to think you know we all have a sliver of that in us because we're human we all have 100 the capability to be like the darkest expression or the lightest 100 and to your point, like that free will, that's what the mastery is about on earth.

1:00:07And that's why I think, you know, I admire your prayer. I admire your faith. I loved, I told you in the book how there are all these beautiful Bible verses. I didn't grow up with that. And I was like, this is mystical poetry. That's why I look at it. I look at scripture. I don't attach religion to it, It just happens to be from, but it was like scripture is helpful. It reminds you of what it's like being human. And it teaches you all scripture from all around the world, from all different cultures. When you really go back and look at it, I mean, my mom would read this Buddhist scripture to me.

1:00:45And sometimes, again, it was like, oh, I never thought about things like that. That's beautiful. Or things from the Bible that I put in the book. I just look at it as really beautiful poetry, but that has an answer or that has a breadcrumb to get you closer to where you want to be. And it does say you're not going to know everything. You're not going to have all the answers. And so that's why you have to trust. I mean, I have friends who aren't really faith-based, but they'll say, but you know what? I do trust the universe. I've gotten to this point now as I get older where I have to get into this mindset of I'm going to be a person who is going to trust that whatever is happening for me is going to be for my highest good some way.

1:01:32It may not feel like it now, but the door that closes on you or you get fired from a job but then you don't see what's coming around the corner, you know, or the boyfriend or girlfriend breaks up with you and you're devastated and you think you'll never be happy again. But then we all know that once you go through that and you have a focus to get to the other side, and then there's something that's so perfect for you and so wonderful for you, but you still have to learn the lessons and you still have to be accountable. But it's the beauty of life of that. You know, my dad always says, hey, listen, nothing remains the same.

1:02:12And he's right, like all things. is that nothing remains the same on Earth. It just doesn't. And I think we have to really remember that we're on Earth and kind of what kind of happens in this realm. Gosh, who was that female poet that said, she said, I'm forgetting her name now, menopause brain. She said, change is the only poem. 100 % is the guarantee. So you've been through a lot in these past two years. and when you look back now having sort of I imagine writing this book on some level must have been cathartic and very edifying so as this kind of stopping point from the last chapter you know of these two years like what what have you learned about yourself through this particular trial.

1:03:07I have learned that deciding on who I want to be and how I want to show up, but each day, I used to put a lot of pressure on myself as I'm going to, you know, I'm a brave and courageous and this, this, this person. And some days you just don't feel that. Right. But I, I learned that I'm much stronger than I thought I was. My mom used to say it, but now I see what she meant of, she'd always say, oh, there's a crisis, call Nicole, because she actually flourishes in, because I want to see a positive end result. That's just my personality. It's just like the way I was wired. But what I've learned is that everything is so precious, truly.

1:03:54And I know we all say, oh, life is a gift and live in the present and all that. But then what I've really learned is, oh, right, I have a responsibility to, I never really realized that peace was going to be the most important thing I ever wanted to feel. That's what I've learned through this, that for me, my happiness, the think you'll be happy, is peace.

1:04:24thanks for listening to my conversation with Nicole Avant her book think you'll be happy is out on October 17th I hope you pre-order a copy today thanks for tuning in this has been a presentation of Cadence 13 studios I hope you'll listen follow rate and review all of our episodes which are available for free on Apple Podcasts Spotify Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts you