Gwyneth Paltrow x Tara Brach: Reclaiming Our Humanity

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2:08When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on one hand. On another hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast.

2:47Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hi, I'm Kiki, the VP of Content here at Goop. Today's conversation is a special one. GP gets to chat with a teacher who has had an incredibly meaningful impact on her life, and, we're guessing, on many of yours. Tara Brock is a meditation teacher, psychologist, and author of books such as Radical Acceptance. Today, she guides us in her resonant way, helping us to open our hearts to ourselves and to others, to break down the divides that exist within and between us, to create space for each other, to pay attention to our vulnerabilities, to be willing to feel our feelings so that they don't unwillingly rule our lives, to together reclaim our humanity.

3:51What also makes this episode special is that Tara and Gwyneth do the RAIN practice together, live. If you're not familiar with RAINN, you'll get to learn it today. Over to Gwyneth and Tara.

4:05Oh my goodness. I'm totally starstruck. Oh, well, that makes me feel really good for the moment. I've been looking forward to this one. Me too. I just, I cannot tell you how important you are to me, like how you are such a huge part of my wellness practice and like how I get back into my body and your work is so important and so meaningful. So I just want to say thank you before we start. Oh my gosh, that so gladdens me. It makes me happy. Yeah. And you have the best voice. I mean, maybe it's Pavlovian now because, you know, by the time I've trained you in. Yes. I know. I either feel like I hypnotize and put people to sleep or else wake them up, but I'm not sure which.

5:00It depends on the day and it depends on the content, I think. Exactly, exactly. So how's your day? How are you doing? Oh my gosh, thank you for asking. I think I'm okay. It's been a busy time. And so just trying to get through all the work and make space for myself. And I also have two boys in the house applying to college. So that's a whole other. Oh my gosh, you're at that phase. I remember. Do you have, I don't know really anything about your personal life. I realized you have, how many children do you have? One boy. And I just very well remember the whole process. Gosh, how great to have your mother be a psychologist and a meditation teacher when you're applying to college.

5:50Yes and no. You know, he used to, he used to come to classes and people would say, oh, do you meditate with your mom? And he'd say, I'm no Buddha boy, you know, he had to draw his boundaries. And so you have two that are the same age. I have a stepson and a son who are both the same age. Oh my. Are they buddies? Do they get along? They are. They're, they're, they're like brothers. You know, they really care about each other and look after each other. They're also very, very different, but they're very sweet to each other. Okay, so you're right on that. You're right on the edge of a whole different life.

6:30I'm right on the edge. Wow. And how are you doing, if I may ask, today? Well, it's all is good in a deep way. And I have to share with you, I've just been very tugged around by, you know, I'm heartbroken with all that's happening in the Middle East. And it's all over the world. I mean, if you look at Darfur and anywhere, it's like it's huge tragedies. But this one's a crusher for some reasons. And I've been involved, responding in all different ways. And so it's taken a lot. It's been intense. Yeah. And so striking to me how the cultural response to it all is so deeply polarized. And there's so much I was actually thinking about you when it all was happening, because how do you think that there we can like where where can there be softening?

7:31Well, first of all, I'm asking the same thing, you know, and I'm like utterly humbled in that don't know place. What does keep coming back to me is that we have to keep reclaiming our humanity, that we have to keep sensing what's really morally true for me. and the buddhists talk about hatred never ceases by hatred but by love alone is healed this is the ancient and eternal law and martin luther king talks but it's it's in many faiths so all that feels clear to me is that it's wise to stop just to stop the aggression and i'm really aware this because I did an event with his rallies last week. And I mean, there were 2 ,700 people on Zoom.

8:30And, you know, this is very close to their, you know, their lives being shredded. This is the biggest thing that's happened to them in their lifetime. And we did it, we ended with a ritual that was really beautiful, where I had them bring candles and invited them to speak, you know, bring a name or bring, you know, a prayer into the group. And what was so moving is, you know, people said things like the first woman who spoke said, my three-year-old is a hostage and his parents aren't with him. And that was the first person, you know. And there were sharings like that. But what really touched me is people that said, all the children being killed are our children, all the children, and just brought their care for everybody.

9:23So what I'm aware of is that when we're in raw trauma, it's not always possible to have that kind of greatness of heart. It's like we're in survival mode and not to even expect that. But for those of us who are not in trauma, it feels like we're the ones that are, that it's our role to hold that space of really including everybody in our hearts, that that's our job right now as well as we can. Absolutely. And so how do you respond to those who are incapable of understanding that and just think, you know, if you're not, if anybody's not seeing this or relating to it exactly the way that I am, then they're dead to me.

10:12When I'm working with people who are completely in that polarized, traumatized place where there's an enemy, and if you don't see that, you're not on my side, it's really natural to just keep seeking to understand the depth of the hurt they're living in and keep company with that. Because it isn't the time to try to change, you know, I can't change minds. All I can do is try to keep connections and then wherever there's a possibility, inviting into more of a softening. And I went to a vigil last Sunday across from the White House. and again it was Muslims and Jews and other people that were you know sharing different people's experience of loss this family this individual but again there was that sense of holding the space for everybody's loss and that's where the hope is it's just that it we're not all there yet is there something that like do you have a trick or something that you say you know if you find somebody in that state to sort of help them help bring them into softening or do you just have to let them sort of sleep it off and come back when they're less out of that rage there are ways to work with the trauma i mean i did another kind of an event with therapists who are working 24 7 right now with trauma and everybody's trying to find some refuge right now Everyone feels incredibly unsafe, scared, angry, filled with, you know, very charged, and are trying to find some way back home, you know.

12:01So, you know, we can start to, let's say you are coming to me and you're feeling just caught in, this is one friend of mine, caught in a lot of anger and hatred. And she has both Palestinian and Israeli friends, and she's just so filled with distress about how things are going and she's got targets for her blame. And so we did the RAIN practice, which I know you're familiar with. Oh, yes. And it was so powerful for her. RAIN, for anyone listening, recognize, it's an acronym, recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. And it weaves together mindfulness and compassion. And it's a pathway back to inner refuge.

12:47Because I really think that's what we're seeking. Yeah. At Goop, we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect. That's why we're drawn to Convene, a global hospitality brand reimagining work and meeting spaces centered around design and care. Convene's sophisticated, purpose-built locations are designed to inspire connection. Whether it's a board meeting for 10, a team off-site, or a workplace membership that gives you and your team a home base. With hospitality at its core, every detail is taken care of, so your in-person time feels seamless, elevated, and intentional.

13:25If you're looking for a new workspace or planning your next off-site or meeting, schedule a tour today at convene.com. And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. Could you take us through the process of RAINN a little bit because it really just is, it's such a way back home to yourself so quickly. Do you mind taking us through? It would be a pleasure.

14:06Maybe I'll give you a brief rain story and then I'll do a mini meditation with rain. So I have had more people tell me rain saved my life than anything else. I mean, rain, when we're stuck, when we're reactive, it really gives us a pathway back to our best self, you know. And I have the anniversary edition of Radical Acceptance that's out now and I've done a whole lot on Reign in it because it's so popular. So I first decided to write more about it because my mother had come to live with me and my husband and she was like 80 and I got so caught in this, I was swinging from the reaction of guilty because I wasn't giving her enough time to anxious because I had a deadline on getting a chapter done or whatever it was.

15:03I don't even remember. But I was really caught in reactivity. And I remember one day she came into this office and she wanted to show me an article from The New Yorker. And I was busy on, you know, looking into my screen. I think I was putting together a talk on loving kindness. And it's so embarrassing. But anyway, she was very gracious. She just put down the article and I saw her retreating form and I thought to myself, Gwyneth, you know, I don't know how long I'll have her. And so I decided to do RAIN. And again, the acronym starts with recognize and that means recognize what's going on inside us.

15:46Well, okay, guilt, anxiety. So I just named them. And then allow, A, means just let them be there. Don't try to fight what's going on inside you. Allow it to be there. The I of rain is investigate. And what that means is to pay attention to how it's living in your body and what's actually going on deep inside you when this is happening. And then the N is nurture, which means offer yourself some way of kindness. So I did that. You know, I recognized and allowed the guilt and the anxiety and I investigated and it got right to that belief of I'm falling short everywhere, you know, which is a core belief of unworthiness.

16:36And then the nurturing, you know, because you kind of asked that place, well, what do you need, was to really trust, you know, trust my goodness, trust that I love her. And I did that and after I just offered that care, I just felt larger. I felt more... I went from this guilty daughter to a space of compassion. Something shifted. So I did this a number of times and I started noticing when I was with her, I was really with her, you know. It's like we'd have our big salads together and go for a walk by the river and I was actually there. And so she died about three, four years later. And she was an awesome person.

17:20And I just talk about her and I can feel it. And I didn't have regrets because rain had saved my life moments with my mom. It's like, you know, when it's dust to dust, we want to be there, you know. So I ended up doing a lot more writing and focusing on rain. And so what we can do is I'll just do a mini rain right now. And for anyone listening, and this is not hard to do, you might let yourself come into stillness, you might let your eyes close or lower your gaze so that you can turn your attention inward. And maybe even take a few full breaths and let the breath help collect your attention so you actually can feel yourself right here, nice full deep in-breath and a slow out-breath, just letting go a little with the out-breath, nice deep in-breath and then a slow out-breath, letting go, letting go.

18:37And letting the breath resume in its natural rhythm and just notice the quality of presence that's here, that you're a little more here. And you might sense what wants to let go a little in your body, maybe shoulders, maybe softening the hands, relaxing, opening the chest, softening the belly. So you can start feeling that you are inhabiting yourself again. And then scanning a little your life and sense what's challenging right now. Some situation where you are reactive that feels difficult. It might be that you are reacting with anxiety or anger, hurt, embarrassment. But some situation, maybe a repeating situation, could be with somebody close to you, family member, friend, child, parent, somebody at work.

19:50So some situation where you'd like to have more access to who you really can be.

20:02And when you've identified that, take a moment to actually, as if you're watching a movie, watch the situation unfold and let yourself pause right at the moment where you're most reactive. Kind of freeze the frame.

20:26Maybe when somebody is saying something in a certain tone or when you're in a certain behavior, maybe an addictive behavior or saying something you regret, freeze the frame. And now's the time to begin rain, to just recognize what's going on inside you right now. And you might mentally whisper what you notice. Maybe it's fear, maybe it's hurt, guilt, anxiety. Mentally whisper the word, maybe two things, it's okay. And then allow means just let it be there. Just the way a wave belongs to the ocean, let this belong. You can even say this belongs for this moment, it's okay.

21:25And that will allow you to investigate a bit more. You might sense when this is going on, when I'm reactive, what am I believing? So often we're believing that somebody couldn't care if they were treating us that way or things are out of control and it's going to get worse, or that we don't like the way we're being, that we're falling short.

21:52Sense what you're believing, whatever you're believing, sense where you feel the feelings the strongest in your body, might be the throat or the chest or the belly, and you might even explore putting your hand on your heart to kind of bring your attention into the body, to feel where the vulnerability is. And if you want to go deeper into it, you might even feel your face making the expression that goes with the vulnerable feeling, the fear, the anger. let your posture express it and feel on the inside out as directly as you can okay, intimate contact with that feeling

22:44which takes some courage and you might ask that feeling, what do you need right now? how do you want me to be with you? What is it that would most bring some comfort or ease or healing? And then just listen, because maybe you'll find that this part wants to feel forgiven or understood or accepted or loved or trusted. Maybe it wants you to trust your goodness. Just sense what it needs. and as you're doing that you might feel yourself breathing more fully and deeply, maybe your posture is shifting a little so you can listen from the highest part of yourself, your own awake heart, your own wisdom, and just begin to sense that you can offer what's needed, that the very touch of your hand on your heart can be tender and can communicate care.

23:50And you might vary the touch until it feels like you're actually offering care to yourself. And notice what that's like. And you might even offer a message of care. I'm here and I'm not leaving. I care about the suffering. Trust your goodness, whatever the message is. And if it's hard to offer yourself a message, imagine that it's coming from someone you trust, someone you love. Could be a friend, could be someone no longer alive, could be a child or a dog, it could be an ancestor, it could be this living earth, it could be a deity, just some larger source. Trust yourself, trust your goodness.

24:49I'm here and I'm not leaving.

24:54And in these next few moments sense that you can let in whatever care is being offered. Experiment. If you've never done this before, imagine it's… the care is bathing you, filling you. And just notice as that happens that kind of shift in your sense of your own being. Perhaps noticing that when you started you maybe felt like a scared self or an angry self and that there is more space, there is more presence, there is more kindness, there is more perspective.

26:01I can't believe that I just got to do that with you in real life. I'm so honored. Thank you. I appreciate you inviting it. There's probably nothing that feels more valuable than getting intimate with our own hearts. We need it. We need it in this world. We do. Gosh, do we ever? And it never ceases to amaze me how that practice is just, it's such an immediate kind of remedy for anything, you know, whether it's global or interpersonal. Did you make that up? The acronym existed, but it was in a different form. So I revised it because it needed the nurturing, because the nurturing is the pivotal piece.

26:47And then it took off. I mean, now it's, you know, therapists train other therapists and so on. And it's not an invention. I mean, it's basically taking these ancient practices of mindfulness and compassion and just weaving it together. It's an applied meditation, which I like. I think that's cool. Can we talk about how you got here? You've talked about sort of being in this when you were in your 20s, what you call a trance of unworthiness and that you had specific things happen that led. Will you just tell me and us a little bit about your journey through life to this place? Yeah, well, as you just named, I would say there were three forces that kind of landed me up on a spiritual path.

27:38and one of them is what you just said, that I was in college, it became so clear to me that I was just chronically down on myself, you know, especially a friend who told me on a hike, you know, she said, I'm learning to be my own best friend, and I went, oh my god, you know, I'm just the furthest thing from, you know, I was my harshest credit, and it was everything, it was my body, and how I was eating, and how I was in relationships, and academics, and I wasn't doing enough for the world, the whole thing. So that was one thing is I just knew that I had to find a path of befriending myself. I really did.

28:19And, you know, subsequently as both as psychologists. Just precipitated by that conversation with her? That was one of the wake-ups to just how turned on myself I was. But I, you know, I was aware of judging myself. It was just became like, oof. So I ended up doing a lot with the trance of unworthiness and had to work with self-compassion and forgiveness. But that was one of the motivators. And then another motivator was I was very involved with activism, social activism, social change when I was in college. You know, a lot of rallies, tenants' rights work, and just very involved. And it came, you know, was part of my genetics, my family, and so on, and, you know, my past.

29:07And I started going to yoga classes. And so on Tuesday, I'd be at yoga class, you know, meditating and peaceful. And then on Sunday, we'd be at rallies, you know, us versus them, very strident, angry. And it was just so different worlds. And I just remember, Gwyneth, one day or evening after class, walking home and it was spring and the fruit trees were blossoming and I paused to kind of take it in. And my body and my mind were in the same place at the same time. And there was this feeling of connectedness, you know, with the trees and with other people. And I realized this is what our world needs.

29:53I mean, we need to be activists. We need to do things. But it has to come from this, not from anger. And so that was another real motivator to deepen that way of homecoming so that when I was acting in the world, it would come from that, from love, not from anger. So that's two. And then another catalyst was psychedelics, that I had done a certain amount of psychedelic journeying and it just opened me to the realization that reality is way bigger than the little cocoon of thoughts I live in. And between that and my early glimpses in meditation I realized, you know, this world is an amazingly interesting place if you start looking into what's the nature of reality.

30:42So when I ran into an ashram, I was pretty hooked. I felt like, okay, I want to really give myself to that. And then things evolve from there. Wow. And then did you just happen upon a Buddhist ashram? How did Buddhism become at the nucleus? Yeah, good question. I did not. I started with more of a yoga ashram and did that for... I lived in an ashram, wore garb for 10 years, had an arranged marriage, the whole deal. And this was for someone who was a fairly progressive, independent type person. I just got into it. It fit me in the sense it was very passionate and intense, which is part of my type A personality.

31:26But after a decade, I found there was too much of a clash. It was just too tight and corrupt and a few other things. So I found my way to some Buddhist meditations and then just began practicing and then teaching in that tradition. Do you believe in evil? And do you believe if you do, is it here? The world, it just feels so we're capable of such darkness. And I wonder if in your philosophy, if it plays into the deeper way that we're supposed to, you know, what we're supposed to learn about ourselves. I believe that we can experience things as evil, that we can experience them as incredibly dark.