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The Goop Podcast - Episode Summary
Episode Title
How to Be a Practical Optimist (with psychiatrist Sue Varma)
Episode Description In this episode, psychiatrist Sue Varma, author of *Practical Optimism,* discusses her experiences as the first medical director at the World Trade Center Mental Health Program after 9/11. She introduces her framework for practical optimism, differentiates it from blind optimism, and shares insights on overcoming feelings of being stuck, as well as the importance of small, intentional changes for improving our physical and emotional health.
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Key Takeaways
Introduction to Practical Optimism
- Definition: Practical optimism differs from blind optimism as it encourages empowerment and realistic outlooks.
- Framework Development: Varma's experiences post-9/11 influenced her approach to mental health and the concept of practical optimism.
Importance of Connection
- Community and Belonging: Varma emphasizes how relationships and community play a crucial role in mental well-being.
- Attachment Styles in the Workplace: Discussion on how different attachment styles affect workplace dynamics, impacting productivity and relationships.
Personal Journey to Therapy
- Varma discusses her initial resistance to seeking therapy, stemming from societal stigma and personal expectations.
- She highlights the significance of recognizing one’s own need for help and adopting a proactive approach to mental health.
Health Benefits of Optimism
- Data-Driven Insights: Research shows that optimists typically experience better physical health, including longer lifespans and reduced risks of chronic diseases.
- Positive Lifestyle Choices: Optimists tend to engage in healthier behaviors, such as exercising regularly and seeking preventive healthcare.
Elements of Practical Optimism
Varma outlines key pillars that support practical optimism
- Purpose: Finding meaning beyond professional success; engaging in activities that foster joy and fulfillment.
- Processing Emotions: Learning to recognize and express emotions effectively, using techniques like naming, claiming, taming, and reframing feelings.
- Pride: Building self-worth through self-compassion rather than external validation.
- Proficiency: Cultivating confidence in abilities; acting on opportunities to reinforce positive self-image.
- Presence: Strategies to enhance mindfulness and reduce distractions, promoting connection to oneself and others.
- People: The significance of meaningful relationships and active listening in enhancing emotional health.
- Healthy Habits: Strategies for incorporating wellness routines into daily life, including movement, mindfulness, and engagement.
Coping with Grief and Loneliness
- Varma discusses the societal shift towards isolation and the growing loneliness epidemic, particularly among women in mid-life.
- She encourages reframing the perception of loneliness as a shared human experience and advocates for proactive social engagement.
Final Thoughts
- Emphasizes the necessity of nurturing relationships and community ties as essential to cultivating a fulfilling life.
- Encourages readers to adopt practical optimism as a sustainable approach to mental health that is accessible to everyone.
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Conclusion The conversation with Dr. Sue Varma offers a blend of personal narrative and research-backed insights that provide listeners with practical tools for enhancing their emotional and mental well-being. Her approach to practical optimism serves as a reminder that while we cannot change the past, we can shape our future by fostering positive habits and relationships.
For more information, tune in to the full episode of the Goop Podcast or check out Sue Varma's book, *Practical Optimism.*
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it, want it, let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go. For me, our soul is like, it's unbound. It's limitless. But we will use words to limit ourselves. When people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves. And that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you.
0:51And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world. Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. My guest today is Dr. Sue Varma. Sue is a psychiatrist and the author of a new book called Practical Optimism. She served as the pioneering medical director and attending psychiatrist at the World Trade Center Mental Health Program, treating civilian and first responder survivors in the aftermath of 9-11, which is the work that informed and led her to develop a framework for practical optimism.
1:42As I told Sue in our conversation today, there was so much in her book that resonated with me and also surprised me, especially when she explained how attachment styles show up in the workplace. I truly feel the work she's doing to help people find their sense of belonging and purpose is so important. In this episode, we explain what it means to be a practical optimist in an increasingly lonely and isolating society, ways for moving forward if you feel stuck, and how to make small intentional changes in our day-to-day. Okay, let's get to my chat with Dr. Sue Varma.
2:20What a cool and useful book. Thank you. I actually am so excited to jump in because I love the way that you open this book, especially because I find that this, you know, in a book that is as research heavy as this opening with such a personal story and also all the ways in which you kind of weave in your family life and the word practical and your title practical optimism is so interesting because it also feels like this idea of listening to your instincts to like instinctual kind of like common sense almost in a way I mean I know common sense is kind of a weird way to say it because obviously what we like consider common is through the context of our like kind of insane capitalistic society and everything else but it was like I was like oh this feels just like a kind of like a spiritual sense like yes of course of course like I felt that everything I read um in your book felt like almost like the ways in which people are distilling kind of ancient practical wisdom in a way and so to have this done through the psych and medical world was so unique and cool.
3:36So I just want to thank you for how you are approaching this, because I think it's going to make it so much easier for people and more welcoming for people to try to jump in. Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that. That just makes me feel like so good to hear that because like the ancient wisdom, you know, I just feel like whether it's elders, you know, like passed down, you know, I feel like we're moving away from the intuition, the gut, what's good, what's moral, what's ethical, what's right, you know, and I love that there are so many voices and we have access to so many different people and ways of thought.
4:12But I think for especially young people, it can be a lot like the inputs, you know, that there's so many different ways of thinking and of being. So trying to stick to things that have motivated me, that have inspired me, and that feel like home. So when you were saying like, it feels like common sense, that's beautiful because in a way it's a return back to home you know whatever that means for you whether it's things that you got from your grandparents or your community yeah it's this way of kind of even if you've never heard the idea before it doesn't feel like a new idea it feels like a reminder of an ancient idea from within so it feels actually your writing felt so affirmative actually rather than because sometimes people have that kind of like you're, it's blowing your mind.
4:56Like, Whoa, I didn't know. I never thought about it that way. I never heard that. And then sometimes people write these books that kind of remind you of something that lives within you that just goes unacknowledged because maybe culturally you're moving too quickly or, you know, your emotional life is kind of coloring it and, or blocking it. So you open this book by talking about your experience of entering therapy for the first time as a therapist. And I'd love for you to share that story and also kind of share how you got from this place of, you know, knowing, getting to being able to need the help by first saying that it was okay, that you deserve the help in a way.
5:44Do you know what I mean? Of saying, okay, I need help. But first you were kind of like, I deserve help. Yes, yes. And that's something, you know, that I think that I struggled with because it seems so counterintuitive to people to be like, wait, why did you resist so much? But, you know, go back 20 years, right? Like when we didn't have TikTok, you know, mental health and not everybody spoke about their personal experiences. So from a societal point of view, you know, there still is a stigma, even if you're entering into this field. Then there's kind of a double standard where whether it was in my family environment or whether it was in the medical field, the idea is that you are providing care to other people.
6:24And then there's this unspoken assumption that that means you don't need care. You must be fine. You know, if you're rising to this occasion to dedicate your life to provide for others, it means you must be totally fine. Right. And so my family was very mission driven and they were always helping other people. and when I share my story of, you know, I was running around working at five different hospitals in New York City. And, you know, this was one of the best places to be trained in the world, I was told. And they said, you know, but be ready, roll up your sleeves and be ready to work in the trenches.
6:58And I worked with people without housing, incarcerated, you know, people who had murdered their mother the morning before, like everything. And then the CEO of, you know, on Wall Street, like, and everything in between people from all walks of life, but complicated problems, family problems, trauma, all of that. And I'm running around and working 100 hours a week, sleep deprived, but still trying to have a little bit of a life. And then in the midst of that, my mother gets diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. And now while breast cancer, for the most part, depending on your diagnosis, can be treatable, she had an underlying heart condition that made it almost impossible for her to get treatment because if she got the chemotherapy, it would mean that she would go into heart failure.
7:39And all of a sudden, after getting that diagnosis and I'm running around to first the hospitals that I work at, then to her hospitals going from doctor to doctor and nobody wanted to touch her. They were like, this is a liability, like God forbid if something happened. And so trying to find somebody who would be willing to think outside the box and offer her a treatment that hadn't been done before. And I started developing medical physical symptoms where my legs started to feel really weak and I was having a hard time first walking, like just first running. I was working out a lot or then couldn't walk and then couldn't even stand.
8:10And I still had to show up. I mean, they didn't, there was no idea of like, you need time off to take care of your mom or for yourself or anything like that. So I realized only many, many years later, right. That the body expresses what the mind cannot. And my body was telling me, Sue, you need to slow down, but I didn't know that. Right. And so I ended up instead going to neurologists and, you know, most people will go to five different specialists, medical specialists when they're in these circumstances, because they don't know what's going on. And I didn't have words. I just knew that like, I have to work.
8:40I have to keep going. I'm the daughter. I'm the doctor in the family. Like everyone is expecting me to do things. So I then go to a neurologist, I get an EMG. So she's putting needles in my legs and she's like, you have a clean bill of health. You're fine. And I'm like, but I'm not fine. And she's like, but you're fine. See you later. And I just felt like lost, helpless, demoralized. And while being in therapy was something that was recommended, It was neither carved out for us time-wise. We were literally working 36-hour shifts, nor was there any financial support for it. And the story gets even better.
9:15My dad is a psychiatrist. So people say, what's going on? You know, you've got this, you know, you've got mental health treatment in the family. How come? And it's like that story about the cobbler's kids never have shoes, right? So psychiatrists' kids never get therapy. And it wasn't until one day a cognitive behavioral therapist professor comes in and gives us a talk that my mind is blown because I was like, wait a minute, I don't have to lay down on a couch at a psychoanalyst's office five days a week. Cause the only thing I want to do on a couch is sleep, right? I'm so sleep deprived. 36 hours later.
9:46Yeah, exactly. And so he's like talking to me and I'm like, oh my God, this is like, I can, I can learn skills and I can change the way that I think. And it doesn't have to be forever. And it can be like six to eight sessions. I mean, even one session and learning to reframe the way that you're thinking and skills, actionable, tangible. And I, that, that is the moment after that lecture that I became a therapist ready for my own therapy. And I asked for help. I asked for a referral. I went and it was the best thing that I ever did. And I was like, why did I wait so long? And then I thought to myself, why do we wait for the other shoe to drop before we get help for ourselves?
10:22Why do things have to get so bad? And what can we do to learn a framework that everyone has access to that's free, that's cheap, that you can incorporate into your life, that things don't have to get so bad. So that prevention thing kind of stuck with me. And I was like, cognitive behavioral therapy is not going to be something most people go to. They're not going to hear about it. They're not going to afford it. They're not going to have time for it. They're not going to have access. So how can we make skills relatable and accessible to everybody? I'm really struck by you saying the words the body expresses what the mind cannot, because something that you also wrote in a book is that, you know, we see, is it that people are physically healthier when they have a relationship to optimism.
11:02Yes. Can you tell me the data on how that manifests? Yeah. So it's so fascinating. Like I didn't, I didn't really pay any attention to optimism and it was something I just came across in the literature when it came to resilience. And that was related to my work with 9-11. And I was like, how is it that some people go through extreme circumstances in life and they're somehow okay. and then other people are completely like deflated from it. And optimism, I just thought of it as something that you were either born with or you were not. And then I started looking into the literature and it was like, so people who are optimists on average will live 15 to 20 % longer.
11:40They enjoy something called exceptional longevity, which is living healthy into your 80s. And that's so beautiful to me because it's like, you don't wanna just live longer. We have now, Americans have longer lifespans now, but they don't have longer health spans, which is years spent in good health. And what we see is that they did a study of like 200 ,000 people and they found that optimists have less strokes, less heart disease, and 30 % less chance of dying from all causes. And from dental health to mental health, they have better habits. They wear seat belts, they don't smoke, they exercise, they drink in moderation.
12:12They have great social support. They're super proactive when they need help. And they're very much take control of things in their own hands. So it's not really a mystery when you think about like habits are one big part of why optimists live longer. They take better care of themselves. They engage in prevention. They go to annual screenings. So they're doing a multitude of things, but positive thinking also causes less inflammation in the body, right? Like when we think about a lot of the mental illness or a lot of the physical illnesses, it's from chronic inflammation, from having cortisol, being at such high levels, fight or flight, stress, and all the metabolic syndromes that comes with that high cholesterol, high blood pressure.
12:51So I found optimism to be like a wellspring of health. It's this one-stop shopping thing where not only are you healthier, but you're wealthier. We know that optimists have a 40 % increased likelihood of getting a promotion in the following year. For any number of reasons, optimists save more money. They save more money. They put money aside because they're like, of course, there'll be a tomorrow. And I want to be healthy. And I want to have a financial literacy. So they'll save, they put money into pension. They're more productive. They're less likely to burn out. They're more engaged at work.
13:23They have stronger and longer friendships. So when we look at the total picture of health, not just physical health, but mental health, financial health, social health, it's like, my God, no brainer. How would you define an optimist? so i look at it in two ways there's a natural born optimist who has naturally born with a tendency to think of things as having favorable outcomes but usually an accept point almost exactly exactly that they just think you give them an uncertain situation they're like yep it's going to work out for me let's say you get an announcement overhead you're at the airport i've been traveling a lot this week so i hear an announcement your flight's going to be delayed the optimist would be like oh whatever it'll be five ten minutes fifteen minutes the pessimist is like oh my god i'm going to be stuck here all night.
14:06I knew it. I knew it. I'm screwed with these airlines. They're a-holes, right? So there's a natural tendency. But what's beautiful is even though there is a genetic component and scientists found that there's an oxytocin receptor gene that codes for it, what they found is two things. One, only 25 % of us have a tendency towards optimism. The rest of it is all learned. And then the second thing is even those who have natural born optimism, really what it codes for is a bunch of skills. Again, all things that we can learn. So to me, this all helped kind of demystify that like, yes, there are people who were born with it, but like the rest of us can learn this.
14:42I want to come back to this to get to the eight pillars that support practical optimism. But before I do that, you mentioned your work with 9-11 and I thought in reading about it in your book, gave such valuable insight into creating this book. and what I really feel will be a movement around, you know, I haven't read a book that resonated with me as much as yours in this way since probably the mindset book. I mean, there are certain books like probably the mindset book or nonviolent communication where I was like, wow, this is a shift in a movement. And I really felt that way about your book.
15:17And I feel that your 9-11 work so informed that. Could you tell us a little bit about what, you know, that day, that period, not only what you kind of moved through, but then how you synthesize that experience and translated it into data points for this, for practical optimism. Yes. So thank you for saying that. You know, like on 9-11 itself, I was a medical student working in a New York City hospital, and we were expecting so many more people to come in. And we had started discharging patients and creating anyone that could go home did so that we could create beds for people that we envision were going to come.
15:58And in reality, the death toll was so high that we didn't see as many people surviving. And, you know, the common stories, so fast forward, I'm in medical school at that point, and I go to residency. And as I'm about to finish, this position opens up. And, you know, the medical director of the hospital said, I think you would be really good for this. And I, you know, I was honored and at the same time, scared, because I I was like, I have never experienced, I don't think any of us have experienced like devastation of this proportion. And even though I have done a lot of training until this point, I have never seen anything and how am I qualified?
16:35There's a lot of imposter syndrome type things. But, you know, luckily when you have good people supporting you and believing you and having mentors who are like, nope, you got to do it. You're going to be great for it. You just have to believe. And what I realized is that my patients and I were kind of sort of learning side by side with each other and they were compassionate. I mean, I was like, you know, late 20s, not even 30 at the point. And I realized that so much of therapy happens outside of the sessions. And so here I was putting so much pressure on myself. What am I going to say that's so profound?
17:02And, you know, I remember one of the hardest questions somebody had said to me was, you know, Dr. Varma, like we had a terrorist attack and you want me to move on and try to be the person that I was and I can't. And this could happen tomorrow again. And at some point you realize you just have to sit and grieve with the patient and say, you know what, you're absolutely right. And maybe my expectations are unrealistic at this moment. And I talk about this with Shelly. It's like, Shelly's never going to be. Shelly's, you know, somebody who was caught in the dust cloud, the debris, got trampled on, you know, blood everywhere, you know, got injured, helped other people escaping from, you know, the North Tower.
17:39And so many people lost loved ones, family members, co-workers. Some people dodged a bullet because they didn't go, you know, into the towers. They're trained by sister-in-law that day. You know, she worked in finance, investment banking, and she missed it by a few minutes. You know, my boyfriend has been now with my aunt. My aunt missed it by a few minutes, too. I mean, it's like when you think about life, right, like in any of the moment we would like be so mad. But that few minutes just saved, you know, so everybody had a story in my family who were all working or somehow down there. And, you know, cell phones were relatively new.
18:11I think I just got my cell phone and we were couldn't even get through it. Anybody. So it was really just scary. But a couple of things I learned is that one was how media viewing and exposure to news really can can mess with your head. And that 20, you know, 24 seven cycle then, I mean, we didn't even really have social media like 2001, but just exposure to it, especially for kids who are watching more TV, had more stress symptoms. The second thing we realized is that how unified it made the country. So somebody in Kansas, you know, for good or for bad, unified in the sense that they felt a sense of like wanting to protect and take care and feeling a sense of solidarity, but also exposure to that stress, they felt like they were going through it.
18:53So like we learned a lot of interesting things research wise, but coming back to my work with the program, I realized is that we're never going to be who we were yesterday. Right. So that I had to just scratch that. But one thing that I realized was this idea of post-traumatic growth of you're not going to be that old person. You have to shed that identity, but who are you now? And one question I learned when somebody was like, why would I leave the house? It could be like a tower collapsing on my head tomorrow. And I'm like, you're absolutely right. But then the question I asked them was, but what is the utility of you thinking that way?
19:29And then that was sort of, I think, freeing for some people because they're like, you're not asking me to forget about it. You're not asking me to change. You're just giving me the choice that I can choose to accept or embrace a different reality, which is like, yeah, shit happens and this could happen again tomorrow. But if I believe that it is, then I'm never going to leave my house. at goop we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect that's why we're drawn to convene a global hospitality brand reimagining work in meeting spaces centered around design and care convene's sophisticated purpose-built locations are designed to inspire connection whether it's a board meeting for 10 a team off-site or a workplace membership that gives you and your team a home base.
20:14With hospitality at its core, every detail is taken care of, so your in-person time feels seamless, elevated, and intentional. If you're looking for a new workspace or planning your next off-site or meeting, schedule a tour today at convene.com. And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces, booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. I think especially in the past few years, the experience of such macro grief and immediate grief that so many people are going through, you know, I think in kind of the post pandemic, because there was this kind of macro, like, wow, there's so much grief and every news cycle is like a report of death counts.
21:08And there was just so much. And then obviously now we, there's wars and obviously not just in the 24 hour news cycle, but in the 24 hour palm of our hand, which is even more kind of dialed into us being almost addicted to it. And something I've talked about with my girlfriends a lot lately, you know, whether it's my best friend who lost her father is, you know, this idea of, you know, there are certain things that change us and we don't get to be who we were. And that as a starting place is like, it's like good news and bad news immediately. And something that I love that you wrote in the book was you said, just taking people from a dysfunctional state to a functional one, because that to me also felt very liberating because I think oftentimes in periods of high grief that create, you know, long stretches of fear, anxiety, depression, all of these things to say like, oh, we're not, we just need you to feel better.
22:03We're just want you to like be your old self again, or all of these things are actually impossible. You just are saying like, well, what is one thing we can do today or in the near future towards functionality? Because we do like, let's just find a base or foundation of functionality. And I thought that to me, I'm obsessed with friendship. And so that I wrote that note when I read your book, because it was so informative to me and how to be a better friend to someone in grief, which is to only kind of think towards functionality, not fun again, not eating experience in the world again, not feeling jazzy again, not, you know, all these things that, you know, in a way are asking them to neglect themselves and ignore the seriousness of the experience.
22:50Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And, you know, like taking a shower is, you know, a sign of functionality and like what, what come as you are, you know, and that's kind of how I look at practical optimism is come as you are like all are welcome it doesn't matter where you are in your journey all are accepted and you know in the purpose chapter i talk about this idea of acknowledging who you are like a lot of people are like i'm not satisfied with where i am in life or i want to be somewhere else and it's like okay great that's nice that's all wonderful and i want that for you too when you're ready and we'll talk about how to make the steps happen but just let's just accept how you got to where you are and all the circumstances the ones you chose the ones that you didn't choose, but the ones that created your current reality, again, for better or for worse.
23:34And I think grief definitely has been a heavy weighted blanket that has been on us for many, many years now. And I think the hardest thing is when the world opened up, you know, our hearts and our minds may not have, right, and may not have been ready to accept, like, we're supposed to, what, just re-enter into society as if nothing happened. But it's like, no, I had to listen to the news, or I lost loved ones, or, you know, what you're talking about. So I think this idea, and I experienced it when I lost my mom, I had a very good friend who I know she's 100 % well intentioned, but she was just like, it was kind of like, aren't you over it by now?
24:08You know, and it's like. you're like I'll never get over it yeah there's we don't get over things we live with things yeah and that that is also fundamental to being supportive of a person who's in grief or has it in post-trauma or in trauma absolutely something you also wrote about in this book that I love because I have a friend who is an educator in Louisiana who works mostly with black educators. And she talks a lot about using strength-based model versus deficit model. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Because I feel that that also kind of comes out of your work with your kind of, you know, in your private practice and in your period with kind of helping survivors of 9-11 and how did you arrive at why that is so kind of helpful to this movement of practical optimism?
25:04Yes. So, you know, like so much of my training was focused on fixing what's wrong with people. Right. And I get it. You know, like you, nobody goes to a psychiatrist to just like, I don't know, like talk about how their day was and how, like, let's just talk. I think things have changed now where I think a lot of people are making an effort like for, from a prevention point of view of like, I just, you know, like I want to, I want to make sure everything's okay, but that's not how things used to be. And it's not the reality for many people. And so people don't go until something is broken. And then the doctor is literally just focused on fixing that one small, tiny, broken part of you.
25:39And then there's like 900 other things that are amazing that if they were really maximized, you know, to their full capacity and allowed you to shine and that you engage in those activities or relationships that they could kind of crowd out or be used in a way, using your own strengths to heal, you know, the part of you that isn't doing so well. And I felt that we were not, healthcare really isn't, shouldn't be called health care should be called sick care it's a disease management model right you fix things only when they're broken and wellness is completely in a separate world and they're not talking to each other never the two shall meet wellness and illness and if you don't take care of your wellness it will become your illness and therefore we need one comprehensive unified integrated model that's overarching that kind of combines both and is this philosophy of practical optimism that says if you're doing great, good, still, still use practical optimism in your life, in your practice.
26:35It's like a yoga practice, right? Just because you're buff, you don't stop doing yoga. If that's what you do or whatever it is exercise that you do, however you work to continue to improve yourself, you're always doing it. Yeah. And it's also like, you know, as for example, I've had eczema throughout my life and I can always pinpoint it to periods of stress and And in stress management, the idea that I should only be using like a cortisone treatment on something in my skin when skin is, you know, essentially an exit organ. So whenever it's dry, if something's coming up on your skin, something is, it is that, you know, every symptom is kind of a signal really not a, you know, the thing you, I feel necessarily should be treating with, you know, not always obviously, but, and so I think that, you know, for me, when you can say that, yes, it's a stressor.
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27:26Everything you need to do to help with stress is wellness, you know, for the most part. So it's like the idea that you're like, okay, what am I like? Where am I not finding periods where I can decompress? Where am I not finding breath where I'm truly oxygenating my body? Because it's so much of stress is that we just aren't even in kind of in, in our lungs and in our hearts and kind of finding those moments of calm while feeding ourselves these natural elements, you know? So, and then where am I not kind of able to move energy out of my body? So whether that's in yoga or exercise or something, and the second you start treating stress from a wellness perspective, you'll notice that whatever is manifesting in the body as what we would otherwise say is an illness or, you know, like eczema or, you know, whatever inflammation manifestation, it kind of comes, it settles.
28:19And so it's kind of crazy, the idea that you're like, oh, I just go to a dermatologist and I should only be. And because I did, by the way, until I the the cortisone didn't work anymore. Like it just, you know, at some point it just stopped your body becomes immune to it doesn't work. So when it didn't, I was like, oh, I have to figure this out in my gut and in my stress, because that was why it was happening. Yes, yes. And at least like from a management point of view, like, you know, let's say even in a perfect situation, if some, you know, God forbid there's a skin eruption or eczema eruption, but at least you're trying to minimize or mitigate more upstream.
28:55Because I feel like by the time there's an illness, things have so far gone broken, and that it's so much harder to come back and to repair. They always say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of gold, and I 100 % believe that. And I always tell people, I'll give an example. So whenever I see patients, I ask them to, I check in with them on their, with their mood and I try to get some sort of a objective rating. And it's not quite, you know, like there are rating scales that you can give people, but I might ask something very simple, like on a scale of one to 10, if 10 is your best mood ever and one is the lowest, where is your mood today?
29:32And let's say someone is like, oh, my mood is like a seven, which means like above average, right? Like 10 would be winning the lottery. One is I can knock it out of bed and I don't see a purpose in life. and five is like, eh, I'm okay, blah, maybe. And so seven is like, I feel engaged. I feel motivated, right? On a regular good day, six, seven, I feel like that feels good to me, right? When I'm talking to a patient to know that they're doing okay. I noticed that it takes more effort. Let's say their mood drops down to a three. To get them from a three to a five, it's only a two point increment, but it's way harder.
30:04It's almost like the incline becomes so steep. At that point, their mood, it's like a slippery slope. I always tell my patients, give me a call if your mood is slipping below five, because that's when I know that it's going to take so much more strength and effort to pull you up two points versus your mood is a seven to get you to a nine. All I need is like, I don't know, like you got a promotion or some good thing happened today or your best friend's coming to visit you from out of town. I was surprised. It's much easier to go from a higher mood to slightly higher above. But once your mood is down, it's really, really hard.
30:35So that's why I feel like the idea of prevention is never letting your mood, like number one, connecting, having self-awareness. What is my mood today? And a lot of times people are not in touch with their triggers. And we know that emotional granularity, being able to pinpoint what is it that is making me feel bad today? What happened? Who did I talk to? Did I feel rejection? Did I feel a sense of shame? Did I feel a sense of loss? Am I experiencing grief? Whatever it is, emotion is, disappointment, somebody didn't call me back, it's been 10 days. you know like we we this whole culture of like you know the toxic positivity of just get over it look on the bright side forget about it what's wrong be strong like no so being able to understand the triggers the antecedents and being able to pinpoint that you're feeling bad allows you to then say all right what am I going to do and I give you know people tons of tangible tools endless endless that are free accessible and then you're like all right I'm gonna hit the toolkit like my mood is dropping.
31:30It's a five. I got to boost this. I'm not waiting for it to be a three. And I feel like most people don't get help. They don't go to the therapist's office literally until their mood is like a two. And it's like, why'd you wait so long? You know? And so what I want to give people is like, some people may never go to therapy and that would be my dream. Like, honestly, some like people joke, like, well, wouldn't that be putting you out of business? I'm like, don't worry about me. I'll be fine. Like, I want people to not go, like go to therapy, but eventually the goal is at some point, I hope if you find benefit in therapy, go, There's no end point, right?
31:58Because you find that it's supportive and it's helpful. But the whole point of therapy is so that you're using the skills and practicing them outside and that you're doing the work and that maybe one day you'll graduate. You know, and people tell me, you know, Dr. Barber, I feel like I'm in a good place right now. We can cut back. We can start seeing. And I'm like, good. That means I've done my job with you. Yeah. I love you bringing the phrase toxic optimism into the conversation. You know, your chapter one says the pessimist complains about the win. The optimist expects it to change. The realist and in parentheses, practical optimist adjust the sales.
32:36So I'd love for you to talk to me about, I know you just mentioned what toxic optimism looks like, but how does that like, you know, what is a pessimist saying to you? What's a toxic optimist saying to you? And then how is maybe a practical optimist holding the space for you? Yes. Great. And I love that you brought that quote up. I think it so clearly says it like pessimist gets mired in negativity. So let's say the pessimist goes to the doctor and they're like, hey, you know, your cholesterol and all this stuff isn't looking good. We're going to have to put you on medication. The pessimist is like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing ever.
33:08I knew it. I have high cholesterol in my family. My dad had a heart attack. I'm going to get it too. And then they become so mired in the negativity. So this is what pessimists do. They call them the three Ps of pessimism. And I've added a fourth one. You take things personally. So the person's like, oh, my God, I screwed up. I knew it. I knew it. Like, I haven't been taking care of my health. I'm horrible. Like, I'm a loser. They start berating themselves. They think that the negative things are going to last forever. That's it. The high cholesterol means I'm dying tomorrow. Like, they catastrophize.
33:35And I'm exaggerating so that to make the point clear. And then they think that, like, whatever bad thing is happening is happening in all aspects of their life. And, like, then they're like, everything is going to go to shit. See, I can't take care of my health. Oh, my God, I'm a bad parent and whatever. So they become, as a result of these three Ps, they become passive and they become paralyzed so that they don't act. They're so afraid. So maybe the next doctor's appointment as they're leaving, let's say the front desk person is like, Hey, so we need a follow-up. And they're like, no, no, no, no.
34:02Cause they're so overwhelmed with information. They, the input, they, they're just like, I'll call you, forget it. Just, and they run in some form. They, they engage in avoidance. It's really interesting because, and I'm sorry to come in because that just gave me such a light bulb of a personality type. I know in my own life is like a secret pessimist because, you know, you'll have people who have a really great personality and their personality is like joyful and funny and this and that. But then you see that they have, you know, a life of avoidance in other spaces. Right. So maybe they're, you know, don't want to be in a relationship or a noncommittal for extended periods of time.
34:44Like it's almost like the separation of like, you can almost have like a faux optimistic charisma, but if your life kind of structure and choices are showing that actually you're deep down like a secret pessimist. Yes. Yes, totally. No, that's such a great point. And a lot of people are, I think, and that's, I'm so glad that you brought that up because we don't think about that and your life really does display how you think, right. And, and better, better than, than what actually comes out of your mouth. So if you observe that a hundred percent and so avoidance of any kind, like putting things off and like, look, I get it.
35:22Procrastination could be any number of things, right? We all procrastinate from perfectionism, from maybe undiagnosed or untreated ADHD. You're busy, life happens. So I get it. But yes, if there is procrastination, there's probably some form of emotional avoidance also going on. And then the toxic optimist or the toxic, you know, what we call extreme optimism, blind optimism, the ostrich effect, which is burying your head in the sand and just thinking that the bad thing will go away, they'll go to the doctor's office and get the same feedback of your cholesterol is really high. Like we got to do something about it.
35:57And they'll be like, nah, doctor, you're just worrying about things. I'm fine. Like, don't worry about me. I'll be good. And they don't go to the doctor at all. Yes, exactly. They don't go at all. Right. So, and then they, or they, and then they tell their spouse, like their spouse or their partner will be like, you need to go for your annual. And it's been like five years. So a hundred percent, they don't go at all. And then if somebody, And they tell people they're worrying, they dismiss them, and they're jolly. They're jolly, they're happy, but they're also in avoidance because they think that things will magically figure themselves out.
36:24So both extremes don't end up doing anything. And there's this quote that I heard that I love. George Bernard Shaw said he was like, the world needs optimists and pessimists. He's like, the optimists build the airplanes, the pessimists build the parachutes. So we kind of need both. But to me, the practical optimist who's like, all right, I'm going to take the parachute, I'm going to pack it, but I'm going to book that flight. just as much, right? So like, they're going to still live their life. And but they're going to heed the warnings that the pessimists offer. And there is beauty in pessimism.
36:53And I'm not saying that we should all just jump out of airplanes without a parachute. I'm like, there's beauty in it, in that it's protective. Pessimists are actually more accurate in their assessment of things. So let's say if they meet people, they're like, yeah, I didn't get a good vibe. Like, I feel like this person is like trying to cheat me or whatever it is, right? The problem is, is that they then become paralyzed and they can't act. The practical optimist takes the best of pessimists and say, okay, because there's a joke. If you want accuracy, turn to a pessimist. If you want the job done, you want completion, go to an optimist.
37:24And in my mind, I would change that to a practical optimist because the optimist might be like, oh, everything's fine. And I know tons of optimists, whether it's hiring somebody at a good friend who always is like, everybody's great. And then they hired like the worst person in the world. And like now everyone, the whole team is stuck with this person because, you know, they're like everybody because they can't read the signs are so good there. They and they don't they don't heed the warning signs because they're always looking on the bright side like way too much. So there's this measured balance, calibrated sense right in the middle, which is like take the best of both sides, but then act.
37:56And sometimes acceptance is a form of action, right? Maybe there's nothing to do in a situation that would be fine, too. But do the due diligence and then come to the decision of inaction. Yeah. I think that making the decision rather than living in non-decision so that life just happens to or around you is the difference also. I love it. Is that happening to you or around you? A hundred percent. And I don't want to be in that. Like, I don't want to, that's passive, you know? And like, and I don't like that. So if you do decide, I love it when people have self-awareness and they're like, you know what?
38:31I have thought about all angles. And I give people like problem solving techniques and tons of questions to be able to interact. Almost like you have a life coach guiding you step-by-step. Like, have you thought about this? What would this feel like? What would the alternative, you know, like it's, it's a punch list of like 25 questions. Like, let's say someone is trying to pivot career wise or any major life decision, just to be very proactive, know what you're getting yourself into. And I think we stuff ourselves with food, with alcohol, with substances, with so many things so that we don't have to feel our emotions.
39:03I know I had a patient who told me about one of her friends. She's like, she's got the music on and the streaming, Netflix on in the shower. She's so afraid of being alone with her thoughts. You know, it's also interesting when you talk about how someone who's a practical optimist is more likely to get the promotion because, you know, it also just makes you think about even that kind of kind of primal attraction we have to people like this idea that you're like oh I love their vibe like you know or and and and the vibe of someone who's a practical optimist because you know they're not going to be your friend you call who's like oh they're just going to bring me down or oh they're just not going to see me in my moment of pain you know or you know and you're and I think that there's also just something very and I think whatever is attractive in life tends to rise to the top because it, you know, has such an energy flowing towards it.
39:57Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. I mean, and that's why like they're getting the promotions and they're really like fun to work with. They're easy to work with. And, you know, I talk about this and I'm fascinated by the idea of like attachment styles in the workplace. And this was so interesting to me that like, now we should have more awareness and like people with anxious attachments, they're very needy and they're always needing more information, which is not a bad thing, right? But then they're always afraid that nobody likes them. And on the other hand, the avoidant attachments, they're harder to work with because they're not necessarily always wanting or needing to be around other people.
40:29They can come across as cold and aloof and stoic and hard to read. And so knowing your attachment style versus the optimist are good communicators. They're at ease with themselves and they draw people towards them. They put others at ease. And I think that's so important by, by being kind, warm, open-minded, receptive to communication, receptive to ideas, validating in the workplace to one another to be like, what an amazing idea. Thank you so much. And building, building people up, even people that they don't necessarily agree with, but I think they're kind, they're kind and patient. It's interesting because I never thought about, I never thought about attachment styles in the workplace.
41:11Is that, is that something that people are talking about more. I mean, obviously I've heard about it in family dynamics and relationship and romantic relationships, but it's, it's kind of like, even as you were saying that I could go through every work dynamic I've ever had and been like, wow, that was just labeled for me that I've struggled to work with people who have an anxious attachment style at work. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And like, it's just a newer thing where they've been doing research and I, and I don't know, like it would really take a kind of very progressive work environment for bosses and the employees to be like, I want to share this about myself.
41:46But like, I think it's helpful if we can take the stigma away from labeling the anxious and avoidant and just be able to be like, you know, come up with more generic terms. I'm somebody who needs more feedback. I want someone who wants more touch bases. I think that understanding that like going in, yes, you could try to hire the practical optimist, but you know, they would have to be on a journey of wanting it to be that or maybe naturally they're that way. But I think that the book can be helpful to people to understand what am I and to not feel ashamed about it. I'm thinking a lot about the person you were saying has a friend in the shower who has Netflix and music on.
42:27And it really is making me think about how I feel that I'm reading more and more articles about a loneliness epidemic in America, especially. And your data is really interesting because you do worldwide and American and as a whole America seems very sick that I feel sad to say and you know how much do you think a lack of purpose has to do with a struggle to belong which then translates into this kind of almost building your own little silo where you you can really kind of only be lonely? Yes. You know, such a great question. I love the fact that you're putting these two things together because it's like, okay, the purpose could be like in life.
43:13I hear, here's the thing. I think on one hand, if we're so purpose-driven, meaning like work-oriented, right? We're not making time for the friendships because we want to get ahead. And that's why also why we're seeing a lot of loneliness in America is because we're prioritizing work relationships. So it means often if these good job opportunities are coming away from home, we're leaving our childhood friendships and our communities that we built, or we might be moving to different cities every few years for better opportunities. So the fact that we're prioritizing, this is where prioritizing purpose in the work sense and only defining your purpose in life is how your work achievement and work accolades, it's going to then hypertrophy in one area of of work achievement, but then atrophy in other areas.
43:57But I love that you're talking about purpose because if you define your purpose more broadly to be like, and wellness. And when I think about wellness and wellbeing, like the World Health Organization talks about wellbeing from this broad sense of finding meaning in the work that you do and like joy in relationships. And that's kind of how I define it is if you extend purpose to mean I have very good, healthy relationships that I maintain and I'm fueled by the people in my life, then you will go out of your way. You will make it as important to see those friends as you would do the work thing, you know?
44:33And that's something that like, as I'm writing, as I was writing, I had to put a lot of time with friends and fun and family kind of on the back burner. And like from a single minded point of view, like the writing and the research and the editing book promotion all day and night, but then it made me put these things that are so valuable to me and that feed me. And so now I'm always so cognizant of I need to populate my calendar with friendships as if it was a medical appointment. So like yesterday, I was taping a podcast, I'm on my way to the airport, and I squeezed in, you know, an hour lunch on the way.
45:03And I was like, yeah, I might miss my flight. But this is really important to, to prioritizing it higher. So I love that you talk about the loneliness crisis, because one is prioritizing work above friendship and family. We're not having as much civic engagement, community engagement, religious engagement and that's a whole other topic i'm not telling people that they need to be religious but just think about the community that was built in that came and we know that religion and spirituality does offer a lot of comfort and also support a built-in support system of people and ritual and communing so this idea that whether it's like you do it you know as a workout class or you do it as a you know a walk with you know people who are in a walking group or whatever, this idea that there is something that is every Sunday or every, you know, I even think about how streaming has taken that kind of like, you know, Tuesday watch night or Thursday watch night out of our kind of communal experiences, you know, because we, there were water cooler shows or places where we all gathered because, you know, the new episode of Sex and the City came on on Sundays or Friends and Will and Grace came on on Thursdays or Cheers came on Thursdays or all of these different kind of ways in which we eventize and ritualize watching and being in community.
46:20Yes, that's so beautiful. And, and what you're also speaking to is the fact that now we have a million distractions that are also taking us away. So not only do we have more options where like, you know, I remember like, like so many of my patients were always getting together to watch The Bachelor or The Bachelorette, like the season finale or like that, like that was such a big thing. And so when you now have a million different options and distractions and you're inundated, we don't feel the need, we're not connected and tethered the way that we used to be. And also this idea of like self-reliance that the CDC actually looked at this and they saw that the suicide rates have gone up 30 % in 30 years, in part because of this idea that like, I can do everything by myself, I don't need people.
47:00And that loneliness crisis is also fueling, you know, rises in suicide. We have conveniences, so you never have to leave your home. And, you know, little things like even even the fact that the grocery store clerk, if you still go to grocery stores, right, you had to sign. And that was a moment of connection where they're giving you something and you're talking and people think I'm weird. But like Uber drivers and I were like, we're like BFFs because like like sometimes now with the comfort, you know, you can kind of say you want it quiet. But if that option isn't there, then like yesterday I was kind of I was slightly irritated because I was like, I need to do work.
47:32But then I was like, you know what? Screw it. Like and I learned so much. You know, this woman is great. She's like, I grew up in Santa Monica and was telling me what it was like in the 70s. And I'm like, I would have missed this amazing, beautiful, rich history lesson that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. I mean, I've learned so much from people from all walks of life and all backgrounds. And we don't, we just put the headphones on and we're like, do not disturb. So loneliness epidemic, it's so dear to my heart. And when I think about other countries, like in Denmark, I think, I think it's in Denmark, they were putting these grocery store checkout lines where you can kind of linger.
48:02And it was meant for seniors, like once they bought stuff, like they had coffee. and you could just sit and talk. And I just think about these opportunities. And I saw something that in London, like these like walking groups, it's like walking and talking and you're specifically there to meet people. And here I feel like lonely is equated with being a loser. God forbid you admit that you're lonely. It means that there's something defective about you that nobody likes you. And it's like, there's so much shame that people would never want to admit I'm joining this for the socialization. Like, no, no, no, I'm going to walk or run to do the running.
48:32No one will admit that they're going there to meet people. It's like, I don't know why, why does this need to be so? Because we assume that people should have it figured out. And the number of women that I'm hearing in their 30s, 40s, 50s that are talking to me about loneliness is so profound. Like, they're like, my friendships have changed because of marriage. Children, we're in different circumstances. Our kids are different ages. We don't have anything in common anymore. I don't, you know, and then especially when the kids grow up and you're not as involved in the playdates, you're missing those, you know, opportunities for engagement with other parents.
49:01I was just talking to someone the other day about how I think there's going to be a wave of these kind of like phone free tech free spaces. And I think they should like give you a card that says, you know, give your kids our landline if somebody needs to reach you. and so that everyone because I think as a mom you're usually like like wouldn't want to be at a phone free bar all day because like you know or like you know in the evening or whatever because what if my kids call but that's actually like the gateway to like the phone addiction I think because if you think about when we were growing up there was no way to get in touch you know your parents would say I'll be here call Sue's house if you need me there wasn't this idea that there was this easy, instant way to always connect with them.
49:45And now that that seems so far, and I'm seeing so many more of like the book, like the quiet book. Yeah. I like love that. I'm obsessed. I truly feel like I could have done this pod with you for two hours and I want to respect your time. And I also, what I'd love before we go is for you to just give me the pillars because I feel that they'll all be these kind of really, and in the book, by the way, to everyone listening is takes you through how to really activate these pillars in your life. And so, but especially ones like pride was such an interesting one, one of the pillars. And so I'd love for you to just go through and purpose we just did.
50:27So purpose is one of the pillars that supports practical optimism. Could you go through the other ones before we sign off just to give people something to think about on their way to buy your book. Yes. Thank you for the plug. Absolutely. Yes. So the first one is purpose. And there's so much in there about finding it, about reconnecting it, like literally how to do it tomorrow. And the key thing with purpose is not, it's not connected to your paycheck. It could come from so many different places. And so many people are like, but I don't feel alive and awake as soon as I get out of bed. And I'm like, okay, this is what you need to do.
51:01So there's tons of tangible tips there. And then when I talk about processing, this is about processing your emotions. And I have like four very quick things. I mean, there's so much more about emotions, the benefit of them, why we have them, how different cultures express them. But when it comes to overwhelming emotions, I say there's four steps, name it, claim it, tame it, and reframe it. And naming the emotion, claiming where in the body are you feeling it? Because a lot of people are like, I got clenched jaws or tight fists or shoulder pain or headaches. And then taming it is there's like a variety of things you can do from meditation to journaling and talk about the science of it, how to do it, the benefits of it, keeping a worry diary, which seems so counterintuitive.
51:42Why would I write my worries, right? Like I'm trying to get away from them. And I tell you all the reasons why you should spend 10 minutes a day worrying as best as you can and put it all down because it takes it out of your brain. And because it desensitizes you, it teaches you that the things that you worry about 85 85 percent of the time the things that we worry about never actually happen and the 15 percent of the time they do we're better equipped to handle them than we thought we were and then we're reframing it this is like the money this is where like the jackpot is that being able to reframe a situation it's very hard to do in the midst of the the the challenge in the challenging time and the grief but if you're able to find either some silver lining or distance yourself create some objectivity and neutrality between you and your problem.
52:27And sometimes I can be taking a break. I could be hitting pause, not stop, going for a walk. How am I going to feel about this a year from now, five years from now? Is this going to matter at all? And the key question is, ask yourself, is this a problem to be solved or a truth to be accepted? And that question is so freeing because it says, if this is not a problem to be solved, then I'm done. And then all my worrying is what we call unproductive worrying, where you have your wheels spinning in the mud. There's motion, but there's no acceleration. And that doesn't serve anybody. Productive worry, on the other hand, is making a list of what am I gonna do?
53:04Who am I gonna call? Who do I have in my corner? And that's what practical optimists do, is they worry, but they worry in a very productive manner. And that's called planning. So worry is a form of emotional avoidance. It keeps you stuck in your head. It doesn't generate any behavior. And sometimes people use worry as a form of stimulation. It gives them something to do, and they think that they're doing something. So they're like, oh, I'm solving the problem. Well, what are you doing? I'm worrying. Worrying is not solving the problem. You're in your head. And then problem solving, I give people the 25 question punch list and just, you know, I have a shorter version of it now that'll hopefully come out in some publication soon, but 10 questions from those 25.
53:41But really, if you're going through a problem, do all 25. Problem solving is about two things. At any given moment, there's a battle going on on two fronts. There's a battle in the outside world, the real world problem that you need to solve. And then there's a problem in your own head. And I talk about the story of the two wolves. And I really want people to read that because that to me represents the essence of what optimism and pessimism is. So there are these two forces that are always contending within us. And which one wins? You have to read to find out. Then I talk about pride. And this is something that was very personal to me because pride is not ego.
54:16It's not being arrogant. And it's based on a healthy sense of self-worth, which is self-compassion. And I talk about why I hate the concept of self-esteem. And I think that was so foreign to so many people when they read this, they're like, what are you talking about? I remember I started my book tour with CBS Mornings and Gayle King was like, I don't get it too. That's all we talk about is boosting our kids' self-esteem. I don't get it, help me out. And I was like, just bear with me. And self-esteem is based on accolades, on achievement, on what's happening in the outside world. And it's kind of like when you talked about that anxious attachment person always needing to get like feeling satiated from hearing from someone that they're great versus self-compassion it gives you that from the inside so you're not looking constantly feeling starved for it from the outside and i teach you how to develop that 10 minute brief intervention exercise can boost yourself a sense of self-compassion and people with self increased self-compassion have literally just the way optimism has a hundred benefits same thing with self-compassion less anxiety less depression, less colds, less immune system problems, less heart attacks.
55:20I mean, the list goes on. They do better in school. They're better parents. They're less stressed parents. So like, and it only takes 10 minutes. So that's what I love about so many of these tips is that they're quick. Proficiency. Proficiency is not just your ability, it's your confidence in your abilities and why that confidence is equally important. I know so many women who are so capable, but they don't feel confident. And so it's like, then they don't act. So how to boost your sense of confidence, but it's through acting, through action. I talk about present, how to be more present in the digital age, all the things that are happening that are keeping us from that.
55:52Something called the shallowing hypothesis is when we're reading online, if there's anything that you can do to print it out or read from a book, read more literature. Reading develops empathy. You're going to read more accurately when you're reading from a book because you have visual cues and memory cues. So a lot of ways in which we can be present, including experiencing awe. So, so much about depression is rumination in the brain. And to get out of that, we need to break the cycle. So I'm talking to you and I'm seeing some beautiful mountains outside and hopefully we'll get a hike later today.
56:23So being in nature, being surrounded by museums, architecture, art, music, life that take you, rescue you in a way from yourself. The people pillar, this was my favorite. I think I wrote enough for it to be a book in itself. and thank God I have good editors who are like, no, Sue, we don't need 300 pages on relationships and friendships and loneliness. I want that book from you though. Yeah, because you're obsessed with friendships and I want to talk to you. We have to, maybe we can have another conversation about just on friendships and because they're so beautiful. Finding good friends is so powerful.
56:55People that are attuned to you on an emotional level. You know, two important statistics they show is like people who have active listeners in their life, like live on average, like four years longer. so having that community you're gonna outlive all of us like with all of your child wonderful sweet beautiful childhood friendships and then with one one study that I loved it was a small study but it was so beautiful was teen girls calling like going going through some distress and then gave them an option of like texting versus like hearing their mom's voice and that the texting like whatever their mom said to reassure them it didn't help but like one very brief phone call of hearing the voice of someone that you loved.
57:34They then measured oxytocin in the body and cortisol, and they could measure that. And oxytocin, the bonding cuddle hormone that you get from mother infant, or even from friendship is a very strong, potent buffer against cortisol and the stress hormones. So surrounding yourself with friendship, I mean, there's so many studies of friendship that came out of the research that I did, but absolutely. Like if you want to live longer, they say, you know, the quality of your life is dependent on the quality of your friendships, if you want to predict somebody's physical health in their 80s, look at what their friendships look like in their 40s and 50s.
58:08And then the last pillar is practicing healthy habits. And this is all about how to make a new habit, things that get in the way of it, how you want to lower the entry barrier, meaning make the things that you want, make them easier, make them accessible. And the things that you don't want, crowd them out. So like, whatever it is, if it's the gym clothes, if it's the food, it's like, I'm big on anything that you can do to make your life easy, but you have to plan it in advance. And then I talk about the four M's of mental health, which are four science backed habits that like I swear by, and I learned them from my dad, the original optimist in the family.
58:42And they are movement, mindfulness, meaningful engagement, and mastery. I loved reading about your dad in the book, by the way, he is your OG optimist of your family. And you know, I think that's also why so much of your book felt like this kind of like, affirmative ancestral knowledge, although all of course, all of your data is so modern and new. So I want to thank you so much for your time and for giving me extra time today, because I really, really appreciate this book. And I would recommend it to anyone. It's so great. and you are so amazing to talk to. And so I want to thank you so much because I already have thought of so many people in my own life, I know will be positively impacted by your work and your book and your mission.
59:29So thank you so much. And thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you so much. And yeah, I would just ask if anyone reads it to please leave reviews. They're everything, you know, on Amazon, Goodreads, it gets people excited and the book is available wherever. So thank you for taking the time. And it just, the feedback that you gave me means so much because I so admire you, the work that you do, how you write, how you communicate, and just that you get it, you know, and I feel like having that deep sense of knowing what's important in life. And I feel like so many of us, like it's so easy to get pulled out and like you said, the capitalistic robot, but to like your soul, it's just, it speaks to me, you know, the beauty, the honesty, the authenticity.
1:00:08So thank you for taking the time to do this and read the book as well. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.
1:00:18That's it for today's episode. Thanks for joining this conversation with Dr. Sue Varma. I loved the way she recontextualized pain and trauma and how, as she put it, we're never going to be who we were yesterday. I think her wisdom and advice is so grounding for anyone at any point in their journey. And I hope you'll pick up a copy of her new book, Practical Optimism, and find it as useful as I did. this has been a presentation of cadence 13 studios i hope you'll listen follow rate and review all of our episodes which are available for free on apple podcasts spotify odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts thank you for listening to the goop podcast
From the publisher
Sue Varma, author of Practical Optimism, served as the first medical director and attending psychiatrist at the World Trade Center Mental Health Program, treating civilian and first-responder survivors in the aftermath of 9/11. She shares how her work there led her to develop a framework for practical optimism. She explains what it means to be a practical optimist (and why it's different than blind optimism), ways for moving forward if you're feeling stuck, and how small intentional changes have the power to impact our physical and emotional health.
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