Julia Louis-Dreyfus on How Fear Can Push Us Forward

0:02When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world.

0:58Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the Goop Podcast archives,

1:07I'm very excited that today's guest said yes to coming on this podcast. She's won 11 Emmys. She's a mother and wife and a devoted defender of the environment. She's incredibly inspirational and has expanded our idea of what it means to be a powerful woman. She has played some of the most iconic characters on television, beginning with Seinfeld's Elaine. She starred in an executive-produced Veep, which ran for seven critically acclaimed seasons. And now she's starring in the new film, Downhill, alongside Will Ferrell, which you have to see. Of course, I'm talking about Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Because I think the big takeaway is that good people can do bad things.

1:50And how do they recover from those moments? And can they own them? and what happens when you own your bad behavior and what happens when you don't and the shame that surrounds all of it. It's complicated.

2:12Let's get right to our conversation. Are you sick? I'm on the end of it. I've had it since last Tuesday. I know. Anyway, it's fine. I'm so happy to be here. Oh, my God. I'm so happy you're here. So how many great-grandfathers was it who started the Louis Dreyfus Company? I'm embarrassed that I don't know that. But I think it's great-great-great-great. I think it's great-great-great. My husband's very into especially anything World War II. So he's the one who told me that you had a Jewish-French family. Yes. And that they were involved in the resistance or something. Is that right? My grandfather flew for the Free French and was a huge part of that resistance.

3:01He escaped France during the war and worked with de Gaulle and flew all over the place. My dad went with his mom, his mom who had an American passport. And so they were able to escape through the south of France, through Lisbon, and then they came to the States. In what year?

3:2744 maybe and then but they kept there he kept he always worked for the company and even when they moved oh well no no he was a young boy then my dad he was little he was like seven okay and then he started working later in life later in life yeah he was an attorney for a while he studied he got went to law school and then he joined the company is he still alive he isn't unfortunately he passed in 2016 16. Sorry. Thanks. That sucks. It's hard to lose your dad, isn't it? It's the worst. Yeah. When did your dad pass? 2002. A long time ago, but I'm totally not over it. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. But that's amazing stock, no?

4:14Your grandfather was a fighter pilot or whatever. Yeah. It's cool. I mean, I will admit I didn't know him super well. It was sort of like the French family on the other side. My dad was very much wanted to kind of create a life with his family separate from his French family, frankly. And so we didn't have a lot of tons of communication with the French side. We did, but it wasn't tons and tons. And I also grew up in Washington, D.C. with my mom and my stepdad. I mean, I lived in New York when I was little, and then we moved to D.C. when I was about eight. And that's where I spent the remainder of my childhood.

4:59And then I went back and forth to New York to see my dad and my stepmom and my sisters on that side. Did you grow up speaking French? Well, you'd think I would have, right? I could kill my dad for that if he wasn't already dead. because he should have taught us. I did, I think I do speak a certain amount of French. I learned it in school and I think by osmosis. But, you know, it would be really nice if I was properly bilingual and I am not. Right. Do you feel any kinship to France or French culture? Oh, yeah, 100%. In fact, we just went to, because you say your husband's interested in World War II, we just went to, did you go to Normandy yet?

5:42Oh, no. We're saving that trip for some, because we have to go on the day of the actual... D-Day. D-Day. Thank you very much. June 6th. Yeah. So we have to go in June, and it would be better if it was on some kind of anniversary. It is mind-blowing. It is? Yes. I'd never been. We just went this past summer with my sister and her family and my family, And it was mind-blowing. Mind-blowing. Why? Tell me. Because you get a guide, and the guide will take you to various battle sites, beaches. There's so much history, and there's so much story behind what happened. And you're really overcome by the, and that's a word that's used a lot, but really it is almost the task that they had at hand, our side, was so daunting.

6:42Everything was going against them. The fact that they were able to persevere and conquer was, I just can't get over it. And they were young kids, by the way. Kids. Kids, you know, like 18, 19. And you have sons, right? I have sons. I can't, yeah. You have sons. I have one son and one daughter. How old are they now? My daughter's almost 16. Oh, wow. And my son is almost 14. Wow, teenagers. So did you, you have to, afterwards, will you give me the, like, where you stayed and ate and everything? Yeah. Yes. Okay, great. So you come from, you come from that, you come from that stock. I come from that stock.

7:27It's amazing. What's your stock? My stock is, so on my father's side, I'm Jewish, Ashkenazi, Polish, mostly. And then on my mother's side, I'm a real mutt of like German, English, Scottish. My brother did 23andMe, and he was able to. So, you know, when you mix those things together. so we grew up in a you know and that time too when my parents got married there wasn't a lot of intermarriage between Jews and Christians yeah it was like a real thing so what'd you do like holiday time we kind of did everything nice I know did you grow up Jewish no no no we did Christmas and is your mom Christian yeah Christian-ish you know is that a sect a sect of Christianity Yeah, exactly.

8:24She was a Unitarian for a while. Is she alive? Yes. Oh, great. Okay, so you grew up in D.C. Yes. When, and you went to an all-girls school? I did. So did I. So I wanted to ask you about that. Where'd you go? I went to a school called Spence in New York City. Oh, sure, yeah. So do you think, what do you think that being in a girls school gave you in terms of like what you were able to bring to your confidence? And do you think it informed your performing? I do. I think from a positive point of view, for me, it was, you know, I took on a lot of responsibility in that school at certain points, you know, my sophomore, junior, senior year.

9:07And I don't think I would have done that if there had been boys. I mean, I actually know that Because I loved boys.

9:19And so I think I would have sort of demurred. But I was feisty and wanted, you know, to be president of the class or president of the Honor Council or president of thespians or whatever it is. and I was outspoken and I was a big joker sort of. And so I think that it gave me for sure a kind of confidence that I would not, that in a co-ed situation it might have been not quite the case. The school that I went to, I don't know what Spence was like, but when I was at my school, this was in the 70s in Washington, D.C. It was a very conservative school. And so that aspect of it, I did not like. It was politically conservative, and I think actually to a certain extent socially conservative.

10:14So they weren't, I felt a little bit like I didn't belong there really in a lot of ways. But I made girlfriends while I was there that are still, for instance, we just got together last month, my girlfriends from third grade. That's amazing. Yeah, all five of us. I have a similar thing from Spence too. You do? Yeah. I think it's very conducive to lifelong friendships, you know, because it fosters so much connection between young women. It's amazing. Yeah. Right. It really does. Were you always funny? I don't know. Maybe. My family's funny. When did you realize you were funny? Well, I have memories of laughing with my mom that are very important to me.

10:58We used to watch Captain Kangaroo and Soupy Sails. This is when I was really tiny. And I think it was in Captain Kangaroo where ping pong balls would fall down on people, or maybe it was Soupy Sails, one or the other. And, you know, three-year-old me thought that was so funny. And I just remember howling, laughing with my mom. And my mother has a laugh that's very infectious. and so laughter and making jokes has been a part of the plan from the get-go to a certain extent. It's sort of the culture of our family, I think. So you started to put it to use in college? Well, no, I think probably in high...

11:40I mean, I did plays and stuff in grade school and in high school and so on and humor would be a part even if it was sort of... Even if, I mean, we did Cherry Orchard, for example. But although Chekhov can be - Not a lot of humor. No, but Chekhov can be very funny to a certain extent. Maybe not that play as much, but still. But still, you know, it was always sort of intertwined with everything else. Yeah. But it wasn't just comedy that I was doing. Right, right. So you were always performing. Okay. Yeah. I assume you were too. I mean, a bit. Yeah. I did it more at camp. I love to do it in summer camp in the summer.

12:23I went to a camp where they had a lot of plays. What camp did you go to? It was called Brownledge. It was in Vermont. It was a girls camp as well. I don't know what my parents thought. They were keeping you away from the boys. But I loved that camp. And we did a play every week. We did like a series of one-act plays every week. So it was really fun. And then, but I didn't do it so much in high school, but I always knew that I wanted to do it. Did you always know you wanted to do it? Yes. It was the only thing I wanted to do. Right. Nothing else. It's funny. It really grips you from a young age, doesn't it?

12:57It really does. Yeah. And it's like, and then when it becomes a thing that's not an extracurricular activity, it's like, oh, right? You don't have to do your homework. You can just work on this play, this movie, this whatever it happens to be. That's really nice. So when did that start to happen? college because I started to really study it was a line of study at college and then and then I started to do theater in Chicago northwestern is a great theater department yeah it really does and even better now than it was when I was there like I think light years frankly and then I became you know Chicago particularly when I was there there were so much young, fabulous, cutting-edge theater.

13:45You know, Steppenwolf was starting then, Remains, The Good Men, my husband's theater company called Practical Theater Company. So we were all sort of, there was this community of actors sort of making art in town that was really a thrill to be a part of, like thrilling. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Is that when you met your husband? Yeah. Wow. So how long have you been together? A hundred and three years.

14:17Oh, my God. And were you guys, were you still in Northwestern when you were doing plays in Chicago, or did that come after? I was still at Northwestern. It was all sort of happening at once. At the same time. Yes. And what was it like to be a part of that scene and in Chicago at that time? It was kind of hard to do both, you know, but I was pretty sort of ambitious. I just went and auditioned for Second City and got in. Amazing. You know, but then I had to go to class. And, you know, there's a lot of sort of straddling worlds there. But it was a thrill. It was just like, it changed my life. I mean, it really did change my life.

14:57And it changed my life not only because of the work aspect of it because that opened up my mind to a way of performing and collaborating. But also the people I met, you know, they opened up my world. It was just an amazing time. And is Second City predominantly improv? I mean, I don't know how the fuck you do that. I think you probably do. It's so scary to me. Well. Like that someone's like, okay, you're going to be this and you're going to be this and there's a whole audience full of people watching, go. Yeah, it is scary. But it's the fear that kind of is like gas in your tank. How does that particular craft of improv, because I've never done it, how does that inform acting?

15:50Well, to be honest with you, I think it's the greatest skill set you can have. Yeah. Because it forces you so intently. You have to be as present as you can possibly be and listen. With every pore, right, to body language, energy, words. Yes. And so it's really useful in a scene. And in a scene where it's not a scene about improv. Because what can happen then is you can layer up what you're doing. It can help you find moments, business, stuff that's not on the page. it can help thicken up the performance, the stew, as it were. I mean, Veep is a really good example of that. Almost all the actors on the show have an improv background to a certain extent.

16:41And so that came into great use all the time. I mean, for that reason alone, not that I really am doing acting very much, but for that reason alone, I always was interested in trying to take an improv class just because of the quality of and the level of listening. I imagined you would have to develop and the adrenaline at the same time and then having to modulate the adrenaline while you're writing your scene and making all these choices. And it seems to me like the hardest form of acting there is. I don't know if I would say it's the hardest. I mean, the hardest is when it's not working. True.

17:22That's when it's a nightmare. That's really not good. That's a sick feeling. It's terrible. Isn't it? It's like egg on your face. I don't like it. It gets you in your core. I know. But drama for you, love it. Love. And the same skills supply. Yeah. So you do Second City with all these incredible people. Will you just tell everybody who's listening, some of the people who were at Second City at the time? Well, full disclosure, I was in the touring company. Oh. Breaking news. So it was not the most glorious of gigs.

18:00But, I mean, out of Second City came so many people that you know. I mean, they weren't there when I was there, but Belushi and John Candy and Dan Aykroyd and Steve Carell and I think Stephen Colbert. And I mean, there are just a lot of people who were, and I can't, my brain is mush. I can't remember. But I mean, the list is very, very long. But actually for me doing Second City, although it was, again, really instructive, because I was in sort of the touring company and there was a hierarchy there so that you were sort of, I was traveling with sort of this band of people. Oh my God. And there were so many drugs.

18:46Everyone was so stoned all the time. And that was very stressful. So I'm really happy to have had the experience, but it was really practical theater company in Chicago that really moved the needle for me in a big way artistically. And we did shows in Chicago that were big hits at the time, and it was out of that that we all, in fact, got hired to be on SNL out of that. And what was that like? Like that was like it felt in the moment it felt like Cinderella going to the ball because I had grown up watching SNL in its early days, right? Because like it started I think in 75 or something like that.

19:36So I'm in junior high school and goo-goo-ga-ga for this thing because there was nothing like it on television. It really spoke to kids our age. And it was irreverent. And just, it was, I loved it so much. And then to get put into it was just like, and I was still in college. And so I was like, ah, I'm dropping out of college. I'm going to New York. I'm doing this show, this show I've always wanted to do. And they're going to pay me. I can't believe it. I mean, it was just so, it turned out not to be as much fun as I'd hoped.

20:15you know the way things do sometimes in this business that we're in but I'm really glad I did it because I learned how to do live television I made a lot of further friendships with people that are significant to me in my life still today and it was I think you know in retrospect it's probably you know it's sort of good not to get what you want necessarily you can learn from that And I did. It was not a great, at the time, it was being, Lorne Michaels was not there. And it was not a female-friendly environment at all. Okay. So it was bad news in that area. And again, with the drugs, everybody's on coke or whatever it is they're on.

20:57And so it was pretty chaotic and very dog-eat-dog. That's what the culture was like. What do you think you learned from that? Well, I learned something so simple, but I remember I had such a good time doing theater in Chicago with my friends at the Practical Theater Company. That was like a dream. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm going to keep doing this if I can find a way to have fun. But if I can't, I'm not going to do it anymore. And I gave myself that out inside. And I think that really helped. Right. And I'm sure you learned a bunch of survival skills in the workplace. I think I did. Yeah.

21:41Women are good at that kind of adaptation. Yeah, I know. Sometimes too good. Well, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And I think I maybe was a little too good, to be honest. But I was young. I didn't know.

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23:03How many years after that, will you just tell me a little bit about how you ended up on Seinfeld? Oh, sure. And it's so funny because I'm looking across from you and there's something, like I see elements of little Sasha Seinfeld in you. It's so funny. I don't think she's your secret daughter, but I've just been sitting here thinking, gosh, it's funny. Yeah. We'll announce that on this show. She is my daughter. Larry David had been a writer on SNL my third year. I was on SNL three years. He was there one year. It did not go well for him there. And we sort of bonded over that fact. I'd kind of go into his office and we would kind of bond with our misery.

23:55So we became friends. And I believe Laird didn't even get one sketch on the air. Wow. Or maybe it made it to dress, but then it got cut before air or something like that. That hurts. That does hurt a lot. So anyway, and then I moved, yeah, I moved to LA in 87-ish. And how old are you at this time? 26. Okay. And then my agents sent me four scripts saying that Larry that I'd worked with had written these four scripts with this guy and it was called the Seinfeld Chronicles and would I give it a read and so I did and at the time actually I was being courted or I had been courted by Warner Brothers to do my own series to star in my own series so and I was definitely not the star in these scripts it was like a supporting player particularly in two out of the four I had something to do but in the other two I didn't so much.

24:59But the writing was so unusual. It was like nothing that was on television, you know, at that time. You know, it's like, what's on TV then? Cheers and Cosby and sort of straight down the middle. Very funny. I'm not disparaging those shows at all, but you know what I mean. So yeah. So I went in and I met with Lair and I met Jerry. I didn't really know him. I sort of knew him kind of, you know, maybe I'd seen him do something somewhere. And we hit it off right away, and it was very, like, un-networky. I don't know how I'll say it. There weren't executives around. It was just the guys in their sneakers eating cereal, frankly, hanging out, making jokes.

25:43It was very loosey-goosey. It was like, you know, the kids running the candy store, sort of. And we made a deal, lickety-split, because they needed to start shooting like the following week. And over the weekend, my agent was working overtime. And then we made the deal, and off we went. And we made those four episodes. That was it, four episodes. I should say that Rick Ludwin, who's an NBC executive who recently passed away just like a couple months back, is responsible for all of this because Jerry had made a pilot. The pilot was not well-received. And in fact, they really, really didn't like it.

26:22But Jerry had made his sort of deal was through, I think, as I understand it, was through late night programming at NBC. And so Rick Ludwin evidently took the money that he had for two Bob Hope specials and applied it to these four episodes to get them done, to give Jerry another shot. Wow. And they added a female character who was me. and then it started to get a little bit of interest. But it wasn't a hit for a number of years. Really? Yeah, it took like three years. They wouldn't do that today, would they? Let a show try to... I don't think so. Although it's so different now because everything is so sort of bifurcated.

27:04So many platforms and this and that. I don't know how anybody figures anything out. Seriously, I don't. Yeah, the business models definitely changed from back in those NBC days. Oh, my God. It doesn't resemble it. A few channels and cable was just starting. Right. And so was it a slow build until you became a super, super recognizable person? I think so. So I think that's actually a kinder way than to have massive overnight fame and recognition. Yeah. And I had my kids during that time. And so... Were you already married when you moved to LA? No, I got married when we moved here. And then I got pregnant twice during Seinfeld and had the kids then.