Kathryn Hahn

0:00Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. Botox on a botulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

0:30Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

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2:34When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive, on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers.

3:21Here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I am joined by an actor whose work I have deeply admired for years. She's actually in my top two. She brings humor and chaos and depth and humanity to every role she touches. We had a wonderful conversation about embracing complexity, empty nests and motherhood, navigating aging and the beauty of middle life. And I've never laughed harder during a podcast. Honest, hilarious, and completely herself, Catherine Hahn.

4:11Okay. Well, Catherine, thank you for joining me on the Goop Podcast. So happy to be here. I am so excited. I'm hosting you in my beautiful Airbnb that we're recording in today. I would like to stay here. And I'm not leaving. She's moving in here for the holidays. I'm not leaving. I hope that's okay. That's fine. I actually think this would be a good house to host in. No, it's beautiful. It is. It's a good house to host in. I'm very relaxed in here. Okay, so I have so many questions for you. So you know that, because I've told, I stopped you once in a restaurant to tell you this, but you know I'm like your big fan.

4:52Like, I admire you so, so much and how you do what you do. Like, there are not a lot of people that I see and I'm like, how does she do that? Oh, Lord. And I'm serious. It's you and Kate Winslet are my people. I'm serious. I'm telling you the truth. Incredible confidence. So can I ask you some acting questions? Please. Okay. So when you're working on something, like when you're figuring out who the character is going to be, how do you go about architecting that? Is it cerebral? It's a great verb for it. it's it had been cerebral I think for like a chunk of my life maybe theater wise it had been a little more cerebral when I was doing plays now I think maybe the older I've gotten the less that that's helpful to me like the more it's kind of like it's like I read through the script and then I always love to read through the script through the eye perspective like just kind of wandering through the path like through whatever the character i am playing in it so i can kind of see how they are received how like and that that music just music you listen to music ton of music yeah poetry like just stuff that's like every bird is totally different too because some like it just requires like you know i have this gig on the studio which i love so oh my god you're so good but like you know that's a lot of wardrobe and hair and that helps you that kind of does half the work like it walks in before you do kind of which is helpful right right I do understand that but still like you have to build the character between the braids and the vuitton and like the presentation and it's so brave too like you know what I mean like I would be like okay I'm gonna try this guys like Or do you just like balls to the wall?

6:50I mean, I'm definitely told we've got that. Maybe this time we could bring it down. I feel like I hear that on a kind of regular basis. I'm like, so yeah, for sure. Like a lot of that. That also reminds me of a story in which I took my shirt off and something. It was like in the script it was supposed to. And the director came and kind of kneeled by me like so sweet between the takes. And she was like, so we have that one. So I think for this one, we're going to try it with your shirt on. It was like literally like that is a wrap. This is a wrap for Kevin on. Wrap on the boobies. Wrap on the boobs.

7:28But anyway, I'm sure it's the same way with you. Like it's very hard to articulate what that process is without sounding like. I know, but that's why I want to know what yours is. It's different for every single one. Like there's, you know, some I always feel like also I half of who I it really doesn't come together until I'm in a scene with somebody. And I find like half of who I am playing is in my scene partner. Right. You know what I mean? It doesn't really happen until like you're in relation to someone. Right. And then like relationally, then you can kind of figure out hierarchy or status or what you're going for or like all those.

8:06It's like I don't understand actors that can do it in the mirror. I would just – it would be so embarrassing. You have people like, oh, every time I hear that, I'm like, what? I know. I'm actually really fascinated by that one. Me too. If I look in the mirror, I'm so off-put. Oh, my God. But yes, it's really hard not to – I can't look at playback. I cannot either. You can't either? No, I can't. I can't do it. Yeah. So like, okay, let's stick with the example of the studio, which is so brilliant. It's bananas. so in the script it will say like she's sort of trying to be an urban like what how much was hypebeast yeah like how much was in the script there was and it's very rare I can say that this there was very little of that in the script that is something that Evan and Seth Evan Goldberg and Seth Rogen who wrote correct you know created directed this whole thing we kind of came up together she maya who i play had been kind of an antagonist to seth's character and so we had originally seen it as like a lot more like suits like maybe just a little bit like kind of like a tougher vibe like shoulder pads like and muted and more like studio executive yeah right exactly yeah like you you know those awesome images you have like just someone that's trying that who came up in a time where like it you had to be had to have masculine energy right in order to like and then it just became like well no now it feels like you just like people are holding on so tightly to whatever the things are changing so fast that her like desperation to be awkward was like that there's like and just empty hole inside but that she's just like all All of it's on the outside.

9:56Like she's just, that's, it's like her armor. Like we used to call her like marketing armor. Like she would just get on Essence and just go crazy. You know what I mean? Like she just loved it. We also laughed a lot about H. Lorenzo because there's amazing stuff there, but there's a lot of brands. A lot of brands, a lot of branding. A lot of branding. And so, yeah, I love my, I love me some Essence. But yeah, for her, there was a very specific more is more. Right. aesthetic so anyway to answer your question that was a took a long time that yeah we kind of found that after it was written and like kind of the the trend that be hip language and the thing with seth and i having this weird dark maybe sexual past started happening while we were filming it just made us laugh so like nothing ever emotional just like a warm body and so like that was really that was like really a fun surprise to figure so yeah i love those guys because they're really like that's what you I mean obviously that's always what we want yeah to have flexibility in those ways like I am a flexible performer myself because I like processes like I like different ways of working so I'm always like but and do you have to feel really safe in order to like try those like wild performance moments that are so genius oh because sometimes I'm like I just I don't know that I would feel brave enough in the moment like I would have to feel like Like these people have my back so hard because otherwise it's like egg on your face.

11:26It is. I have had so much egg on my face. Also that it is somehow it is scarier to not take, make a choice. Like sometimes when I'm like either, I don't, I don't know if this is going to work or like the lines are kind of like, just, I'm not really a hundred percent sold on like how precious people are with language. Like anytime it's a little bit like, like that, I feel that's when I go right in my head. but if even if i'm nervous and i don't know the group or i don't know it's almost like i feel like if i just rip the band-aid off and just be as like bold as possible even if it's like terribly embarrassing then i just think sometimes the crew is like okay oh yeah and then you just have like a good energy yeah i'm like then you know i trust that the director the actor you know we'll figure out what it is but i always feel like when it starts really small at least for comedy like when it starts really small it's harder to get get it up right rather than but but yeah if you just kind of do this and just like be like i'll eat the chips who knows it's probably gonna suck at least like open something right oh it's so brave your scene partners too because then you're like oh we have an allowance now like when i see somebody just like it's like great like it just feels like you know so cool fun and had you worked with those guys before ever no i did a no i think seth and i did something for i think it was a john oliver show like a million years ago like like one of those like little sketches but i never worked with either of them before i'm so proud i'm really really proud of seth and i've been with this show i'm so it's really good happy for them although you know you're you're the linchpin of the whole thing for me but we know this so you went to Yale School of Drama yes which yeah how instrumental or not was that in you know building you as an actor well I went to Northwestern for undergrad I was a I am from Ohio it was a really important for me to have a liberal liberal arts education like and I really wanted to get out of I love Ohio but I was really excited to get out of a mile right and so I got a bunch of scholarships kind of like paid my way through northwestern got to to New York with my then boyfriend now husband Ethan with them together like over 30 years it's insane and while we were there I was kind of like do you remember the I don't know if you remember the backstage paper that would have like the Astor place yeah we would always laugh about the no pain nudity ass and I'm like okay it's an actor's life but and then we You would get like, nothing was really happening.

14:09I started going to Williamstown, which is where I met you for the first time. And I will never forget how you, I think we've talked about this. I think you were doing a Shakespeare play. And you came back, we were doing a John Ware play in the smaller stage. And we were doing something and you were like, you said, oh, that's balls. And I was like, did you say that's balls? It was like the best thing ever. I was immediately in love with you. Like my friend and I were like, oh my God, I so love her. anyway but so i did like seven summers there and then nothing was really happening in new york i was a receptionist at garen new york hair salon okay remember that yeah sure do and so i kind of auditioned for yale as really like a way to to be able to keep working i knew i was going to put myself into a shit ton of debt but i i also was like the thought of like rehearsing at one in the morning like you know you're that young and that's like all you want to do it's like you know drink coffee and smoke cigarettes and verse plays and get up with your muffin and watch someone do check off and it was like a dreamy three years but but it was interesting because kind of like that was a big chunk of i remember some someone saying you're going to miss out on your ingenue years if you go because it was like three years i kind of started a little bit later i was like 26 when i got in and i was like i just knew that like that this particular performer was not those ingenue parts were not like i i had some time before i got to the parts that i was like supposed to be playing so it was kind of like an awesome monastic experience of just like having a not even having a tv and just you know i don't know how it i think it i really learned which is contrary to how i am right now but i learned stillness i think and and that was the one of the things i learned there my class was incredible and yeah i wouldn't have traded it for a second.

16:01We were real ragtag, like not camera ready, kind of messy, kind of like clowns. I love it. Yeah. Loved my class. Have you been to New Haven in a while? I've been, yeah. I was just there for Parents Weekend. Oh my God. I love that campus so much. It's the most beautiful campus I think I've ever been to. The Rare Book Library? Oh yeah. The Meineke. The Meineke. It's extraordinary. What is it? Marble. That you can see through. It's incredible. Yeah, it's an incredible building.

16:35I've been in and out a lot lately for work, press and photo shoots, the usual whirlwind. And I was just thinking about how much I love settling into a real home when I'm on the road. There's something special about staying in a space that feels lived in and welcoming. It makes the experience feel more connected to the place. when I book a stay on Airbnb I can make simple home cooked meals have a few friends over and ease into a rhythm that feels more grounded than being in a hotel and it's such a simple practical idea for anyone heading out of town you can host your home on Airbnb while you're away your place would be sitting empty anyway and hosting can bring in a little extra money to put toward future travel.

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17:39I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, This autobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

18:11Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

18:43so let's discuss this college thing and your so your son is a freshman yes i mean your eyes just got a little moist it's awful i am so happy for him this is exactly i feel like what i mean this is what this is the why like i'm so happy that it actually occurred Like he's thriving. He loves it. He's like finding his people. He's like putting himself out there. This is where he wanted to go. He like achieved. All of those things are true and the most important. And also I'm really in mourning. I know. Isn't it bizarre? It's bizarre. It feels like grief, like death grief, right? It does. It's so strange.

19:28It's so strange because, and that's what we were talking a little bit before, Like somebody described it as like a second birth, which makes so much sense to me because it's like pain for a purpose, but it hurts so badly. But you know it's for like a purpose. And it's also like, it's also the most beautiful thing. And it also is like, like we were saying, like it's wild. There's like a psychedelic feeling about being like, what? About like your role changing like overnight, all of a sudden being like, wait, we're now communicating like this? I know. And not that? Like to look down on, like I still have a daughter who's a junior, so we feel like a little bit more time.

20:05Yeah. And who also is like, let me live, guys. Just like, because we both were like, ah, and she was like, no. But like to look down on motherhood and be like on top of it looking down instead of being like in it, like this is who I am, my whole. All of a sudden be like, oh, that was just a two decade chapter of my life. Yeah. It's really a trip, man. I know. It is. How are you? oh yeah i'm okay it's very weird yeah like so i'm in my second fall of empty nest oh my god okay yeah and it was almost worse this fall than the first fall which seemed just so strange and nonsensical but i think maybe there was like more of a permanence and i had sort of grieved it but then they all came home for summer and then they all left again and I was like oh no this is how it's gonna be yeah you know I sort of tricked myself into thinking they were home yes no and I think there's this very strange reorientation that goes on like you said it's two decades where you are obsessed with what they're doing are they okay did they finish their homework like yes did you bring orange slices to soccer practice whatever it's like yes consumes everything and then I know we have a puzzle my husband keeps laughing at me because like the second like the it was probably the week after we dropped him off I was like what's your puzzles like let's be one of those families that just has like puzzle pieces on the table and like you can walk by just do a few like corner and it's just there like no one's touching it I'm like I still have no like attentions we had to do it but it's just like there's it's just like kind of sprawled out on our dining table like in evidence like look at Look at this now.

21:55We have time for puzzles. But it is like a, it, it, I felt that going back for parents weekend where it almost was like a reopening of like, yeah. And I still told my friend, I was like, I'm ready for this college BS to be over with. Like they had the fun, like, let's get back to like, it was like a summer program. I'm like, all right, you're coming home now. But yeah, like it's weird. It's really weird. I had that Thomas Wolfe quote, like you can never go home again. I think about that all the time. Like, right. This is never going to be like, you can never, that's, that's over. like that idea yeah anyway it's it's it's a big adjustment i think i wasn't prepared and i don't think i could have been prepared i don't think anybody much like motherhood i don't think anybody can explain to you what it's like and i don't think anybody can explain to you what it's like when they go no and no one it's so it's like that relationship oh it is such a trip to go from um to all of a sudden be like oh we're peers like I can speak to you like on a it's so fun like that I love yeah me too like we went up to the Cloisters which like somewhere I used to go to in New York City all the time like you know with the medieval yeah collection and it's just like fun to be able to take him places that it's the whole thing is a trip talking like it's just the whole thing is really really really wild and now i do feel like because we have like a year and a half left with our daughter at home to really although we keep joking about our gap year just like at home we're gonna make it so fun for you but but it really does everything becomes very cute and very like precious time becomes like very very it's also just like a mortality thing when your kid goes away to school it's like a yeah okay here we go man then you mix in the hormones and all that and it's it's it's full of joy it's full of joy there was like i mean it's it's like a witching hour for a reason yeah it's i did not anticipate that it's no joke yeah this says besides children in college you know that's one thing but this is besides that yeah yeah i I know.

24:07It seems like unfair. It seems like an unfair amount of things to cope with. Yeah, it's pretty rough. Yeah. So in terms of and I only ask this question because I always find this like a sexist question when people are like, oh, how are you work at working mom? And I find it like I hear you. It annoys me because I'm like, well, you don't ask the dad this question. But I think there's something about being on set that makes it extra hard because it's not like a nine to five, which is hard. Yes. But, you know, I remember being I mean, I really slowed down doing movies once I had kids. I really respect you for that.

24:50Well, I respect that. I think I was just a tremendous amount of like, I don't know. I feel like I was also just so burnout and disenchanted. And it was a lot of reasons. But I remember doing something and leaving the house before they were awake and coming home after they were asleep, which is normal if you're doing – right? So how did you – and you have these great kids that are so unscathed and successful. So how did you do that? Like how were you able to really pursue your art and your success? And, you know, it's like everybody talks about – how do you find out the hana-sants? Right? I don't know if I was the one that came up with that.

25:34That would be great. The hana-sants. I mean, well, I think the thing that I'm coming to terms with and I'm trying to reconcile with, like, this pain I'm feeling with, like, this beginning of this next chapter of Empty Nest, with all those feeling of like there wasn't I didn't have quite a natural ramp up to him going because I really didn't start like I started really working like when I kind of when he was when he was maybe like an eighth grade or a freshman that that's when a lot of the jobs that happened to be like longer it took me that's when it really took off it felt like that there was like a lot of stuff before them it was like little chunks and and I would never go longer than whatever they would come with me everywhere they break anywhere and i mean my husband then they stop wanting to do that yeah because they're they have to and it's actually not fair to them right so i mean my husband's like you're so hard on yourself because i really raked myself over the coals like it was it's because a part of it was like also pat i love what i do so it's like this like intense push pull of like but those those chunks where i was you know not at home for a while and they were in high school i i i still have like a lot to work on in terms of that because that was like it was it was painful so really like and again wild streams like so grateful can't believe i get to do you know it's all that's all the given underneath it it's like you know i and i'm sure it'll come out in the wash it's all good they're like you said they're they are both incredible human beings i'm just like so proud to be a parent of these two people but they i definitely feel like i missed some at a time that i think they oh god this sounds so i hope this doesn't sound like so intense but it's the time that they maybe needed me more than when they were younger like high school like i like even though they would never like i would fly home for like just to have dinner with them and of course they have plans with their friends you know what i mean like those are like two i wouldn't want to get in the way of their but it's just that like being in evidence as a parent you know even if like you're not talking or you're not it's just like knowing that your parent is just like there especially when you're that age but do you think you have to be physically there i mean obviously energetically yeah you are always so there for them i guess you're right it doesn't have to i guess it didn't have to be and i think too when they're a bit older yes i think it's almost it's more emotional labor when they're older but there's FaceTime and yeah you know and and the relationship is established yeah like I used to feel worse missing when they were little because you know they were it's like they're these mushy little delicious and they're barely and you're like missing bath time and like if you miss a week oh I know it's like a fraction of their lives you know I know well do you remember like I was thinking about like I remember I can't believe like when he went to school this year thinking like I from like zero to 18 for me was forever.

28:43Ever. Like I would look at the eighth graders and be like, I will never be that old. Like they're so cool. Like I crushes and I had so many crushes, no takers. I was like, who wants to French kiss me? No takers. I was down to get fingered. No one should say that on this, but I really was. But there was no takers. Oh, my son listens to this. God. Mons au revoir. um, over here. I feel like we're not in danger of your son listening. But he, but I, but I just remember being like, I'll never be that old. And then now look and see like that all that's done. Like time is so weird. It's just so strange.

29:21It sort of compresses. And then afterwards, it's bizarre. And so anyway, but I think it's amazing that you leaned into the opportunity and that you love what you do and that you have so much success at it and you like light up people's lives. And that's also really important. I mean, I love this job. I mean, I honestly, since I was a child, it was like I was an actor. I didn't know what it would look like. I didn't know how it would unfold. I didn't know what like their end game of any kind. But I just there was no there wasn't like a decision. It was just like, this is just who I am. So it could have been, I mean, I put myself in so much debt for it.

30:05I just had this like undying faith that something happened. Did you see people on TV? Was your dad doing community theater? Like how did you even know that? My sweet dad, he did have gigs. He called them gigs, but they were like at the church choir like at mass. Oh. So sweet. And they would go to like little awesome places. So he was a performer. He was like, he would say he was a frustrated singer. Yeah, and songwriter. I know, my sweet dad. But he I kind of grew up going to this place called the Cleveland Playhouse, which is now, of course, one of like the many regional theaters that all of their funding is being cut.

30:37So like all of these theaters are, you know, closing all over this country. These little regional theaters that were like the lifeblood of like tiny towns like working, you know, middle, you know, middle of America towns that could finally see something like the Laramie Project or like these plays that could like blow their minds open. And so anyway, I grew up loving this. It was back when like a regional theater had like a troupe of actors, like an ensemble that they would like, you know, be in different. Like one night it was 12th night. The other night it was like, you know, a Nikki Silver play.

31:06And so I kind of grew up like going there every Saturday. It was called The Curtain Pullers was the program. And I was like just felt so I loved the feeling. I loved the family feeling of it. And I love the sense of belonging. And I love the sense of fearlessness. I loved being in an ensemble and being on stage and knowing that person's not going to let me fall. And I'm like, let that person fall. We're going to pick each other. I love that. I was never into sports, but that felt the closest to me of team work together. It's like a fabric gets sewn between everybody. Yes, and I would cry at every closing night because it was like I would be so invested in it.

31:52I would be like, you're going to, eventually you're not going to cry. But I would just be like, I would make mixtapes for everybody for like the end of it. You're the best. What was your favorite role that you've ever played on stage? This was in college, but I did this. I did a play called Fafu and Her Friends by Maria Irene Fornez, who's an incredible, pretty radical woman playwright. and it was like four it's basically the structure is really cool is four separate scenes and you would have to perform it in a space in which each like scene could happen in its own room so you could hear the conversation like so you you could start it at any point as an audience member oh wow you could hear whatever so it was just it's an incredible piece of writing i just remember being like it was like a really juicy like three-page monologue and very moving at northwestern northwestern yeah will you tell me about your husband who you met at northwestern yeah and you said you've been together for 30 years yeah how is that still going i mean we would we wonder the same thing like what is happening but we i feel like we definitely have got have like gotten married and divorced like seven times over the course of it right and then like i remember somebody saying like if you're married 30 years if you have like i have shitty years they're still doing great right like so like we've just spread that out over the 30 that always makes us feel better okay great maybe we're in the middle of our five year shit stretch but like i i don't know if you felt this too but like having somebody leave having it having somebody leave the house and go to college all of a sudden really brings into relief like how grateful i am to have somebody to like look at getting old with yeah like that it sounds like a real heavy lift all of a sudden to But so we've been it's been really like kind of sweet and tender having him, our son, out of the house.

33:50It's been like a really because no one else really understands it as well as we do. So anyway, it's been tender. He's a good egg, too. Like it's I don't know if you ever felt this, but sometimes and this might I think there's a lot of this is cultural. But I always sometimes have had felt that he was like I was the bad girl and he was the one who had like the righteous moral center. And so I was always like, but I know that's not true. But those are just like stories like built into the fabric of like our origin story. And it's been really interesting to like unpack and like, you know, re-examine.

34:24Yeah. I mean, I think marriage is so interesting because it's really like its own. I always think of it. It's like its own entity that it's like you're one half and they're one half. But then it's also this other thing, you know, on its own, like this organism that you that changes and that you have to feed and that, you know, it's like, yeah. And then and and and so much depth, like the years bring so much depth. Yes. And like that kind of being known like that. And also just, you know, 30 years with someone, it's like more time than you live with your siblings growing up and think about how well they know you.

35:05Right. So but like your spouse, you know, it's like years and years of so much togetherness and how it keeps like reinforcing. And I don't know. I think it's really beautiful. I mean, you know, there was a period definitely where we would we would say to each other, like, it's like when I look at your face, it's like I'm looking in a mirror. Like that's how close, like that's how not necessarily like the greatest. Well, it's really hard on the sex life, right? I don't know. I love looking at myself. When I'm having sex with myself. That's my favorite person I've sex with.

35:43But it really does. But we did definitely, there was that real, it's funny because when we eloped up to Big Sur when we got married and we had this like really awesome man who's like a knot in a tree. This guy kind of came out of the woods with his coat on and married us. It was like the coolest. Just the two of you? Just the two of us. And then this man's daughter took pictures and was a witness. and they had this ritual like the night before you got married he had this like wedding coat this like burlap coat and so the night before you get married he had was this like a pagan ritual? I know it sounds like it okay but it wasn't he was a self-proclaimed oh god I wish I could remember his name poet laureate of Big Sur oh god self-proclaimed yes yes okay and like a really legitimately holy person and vibe I want to remember his name crap anyway on the thing the night before he'd had all the couples he has married like so something that was important onto his marrying row okay and then he said if you would ever get divorced he could do a ceremony where you would together as a couple unpick it yeah i'm like how many have done that he was like no one i was like yeah i don't know if you're gonna schlep up to pick sir they're like well I'll be in.

36:58I hate you fucking yes. Come and unpick the quote with me. Like, I don't know. But it was, wait, why did I bring up the wedding? Oh, because what there was a quote that we, a Rilke, I think it was a Rilke quote about like, like a true marriage is like standing together facing this in the same direction, but like apart. Yeah. And I love that image. Like I really love like not this, but just like knowing. Yeah. And then also still having our own. That's a beautiful thing. I had like a Maori divorce ceremony thing. You did? Isn't that weird? No, I don't think it's weird at all. I think it's beautiful.

37:34No, but I really think when he said that, I was like, I wish people would do that. I just remember that. And your unpicking of the fabric reminded me of that. What? How would it entail? What if you like full face tattoo?

37:52And you've just been covering it up so well. A Coldplay tattoo.

38:01that the majority would do isn't that like a fit yeah a lot of yes definitely yeah it just involved i can't even remember the whole thing it was like our best friends came with us and there was like a prayer and it was actually beautiful kids were there no the kids didn't come but i mean that's so beautiful like that you guys yeah i think it's beautiful i forgot about that you reminded me of my was mary one of yes she was at my divorce i love that person so much she's she's really really spectacular we went to go see a punk band well do you know craig wedren said ring a mail he was in a band called shutter to think yeah and so they had a they had a gig last night which i could i did not say the whole time for because because you're old because i can't hear anything anymore please tell me about it tell me about it what if we just do I want to do a video where we're like, oh, tell me about it.