Kerry Washington on Rewriting Your Narrative

0:01I've always believed that what we put on our bodies matters just as much as what we put in them and that includes our bedding. We spend hours in bed every night and Koyuchi makes the most beautiful organic sheets that support a healthy restorative sleep. Their relaxed linen sheet set is crafted from French flax that's sustainably grown and naturally breathable. It's soft, airy, and somehow gets even better with every wash. The linen regulates temperature beautifully, cool when it's warm, cozy when it's not. So your bed hits peak comfort year round. As leaders in organic bedding since 1991, everything Koyuchi makes is designed with care for both people and the planet, free from toxic chemicals and microplastics.

0:50It's what conscious luxury should feel like. Effortless, thoughtful, and incredibly well made. and they're offering 15 % off your first order. Just go to koichi.com. That's C-O-Y-U-C-H-I.com.

1:10When I travel, whether it's for work or just to take a break, I love staying in an Airbnb. I love the charm and how every place feels so different from a hotel. It gives me a sense of feeling grounded wherever I am, whether it's a weekend away in the country or filming somewhere far from home. There's something about waking up in a real home with a kitchen to make coffee in and a living room to spread out in. And whenever I'm in an Airbnb, I find myself thinking about the person whose home it is. While I'm making it mine for a few days, maybe they're off on their own adventure or simply opening their doors for someone else to enjoy the space they love.

1:49That's what I love about Airbnb. You already have the space. why not let it offer something to someone else and let it work for you? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host.

2:09When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast.

2:47bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the Goop Podcast archives.

3:13lives. My guest today is the very wonderful Carrie Washington. As you will hear in our conversation, we recorded this episode in front of a live audience. We haven't done very many live podcast recordings, but this is Carrie's second time on the Goop podcast and the second time she's done it live. Carrie has a new Hulu series called Unprisoned. She stars in it and as an executive producer too. I asked Carrie about how she embodied the therapist role that she plays on the show and why she felt compelled to tell this story. We also talk about being the protagonist of our own journeys, which is the inspiration behind Carrie's upcoming memoir.

3:53I'll let her tell you more about it in today's episode, but I'm very excited to read it when it comes out. Carrie has such an inspiring story and I'm so proud of everything she's accomplished since our high school days together at Spence. So let's get to my chat with Carrie Washington.

4:13Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to be talking to Carrie, whom I adore. I don't know if any or many of you know this, but we went to high school together in New York City. I'm much older than she is. Not much. She was in 8th grade when I was in 12th grade. But we did a production of Midsummer Night's Dream together. Yes, we did. Because the middle schoolers were allowed to audition for the fairies in the upper school production. So she was Queen Titania and I was a fairy. And that was really the production you wish you saw. That's right. That's right. And look at us now.

4:56So, you know, this is funny. We have not done very many live podcast recordings. In fact, we've only done one other, and it was with Kerry Washington. I'm really good live. She's really good live. So I'm very excited to have you back here today. And I do recommend listening to that one as well. It was a really good one. And you just always bring so much depth and wisdom to everything. No pressure. No. So I'm excited to talk to you today about your new show, which I've seen the pilot and it's so great and so funny. It's really fantastic and it has such a like a unique tone because it's funny and you're really funny but it has quite a serious like underpinning of the whole story which is it's called Unprisoned and you're a producer right?

5:50I am yeah. Will you tell us a little bit about what it's about? Sure sure so this is a dream project for me because I love this tone. Actually, I'm very drawn to dramedy, which is how I would describe the show. And I play Paige and my dad on the show, who's played by the brilliant Delroy Lindo, who's an acting hero of mine. Yeah, like just so he my dad on the show has been in and out of prison my entire life. And he comes out and the show is really about what it's like to be a returning citizen, somebody who's trying to adjust to life as a formerly incarcerated person and what it's like to love somebody who's formerly incarcerated and what that adjustment period is like.

6:29And the show's inspired by the real life of a woman named Tracy McMillan, who's kind of a love relationship guru, and her dad was in and out of prison her whole life. And her two rules were, like, we can have a great relationship, but you can't ask me for money and you can't live with me. So the show is kind of her asking the question, like, what if she wasn't great about those rules and bended them a little bit? What would that be like? Yeah. And it's a beautiful relationship between a father and a daughter and all the complexities that can sometimes accompany that relationship. What was it about this particular story of father-daughter love?

7:06And you also have a son, so it's like, you know, son, mother, father. It's such an interesting dynamic. Was there something about a father-daughter relationship that appealed to you? Yeah, I felt like that was one of the reasons why you would love it, because it really is. I do feel like one of my visions for the show is that people walk away loving their dads more and appreciating their dads more. I love my dad very much, and we have a complicated relationship. There's a saying that I love that our parents know how to push our buttons because they installed them. And so I think, you know, if any of you follow me on Instagram, you know my dad is very charming and really funny.

7:45And also it's complicated. These relationships are always complicated. And on the show, I think the through line with my relationship with my dad is that as complicated as it is, fundamentally, there's so much love and laughter, even in the hardest of times. And that's Tracy's relationship with her real dad. And I just, I think it's so important. I think that's where the tone of the show comes from, too, because we're really aiming for truth in these people, you know, that goal and acting of like trying to nail down the true humanity of a character but we just got really lucky because these people are funny they're just really funny humans so we get to tell the truth and be in joy about it and and it struck me watching you know like it's it's interesting when there is a lot of love and not a lot of trust and I feel like in our snaps in our in our non-parental relationships we can kind of do something about that right like we can say you know this doesn't feel like it's an integrity for me and like if I don't trust this person maybe I don't want to have sex with them anymore or like work with them anymore or whatever the case may be but when it's your parent it's very hard to uncouple with your parent it's really hard so how how did you navigate that feeling of like because you can see so clearly she does not trust this man she does not trust what he says and then of course there's all the love so how did you explore that wow that is such a good question I think I know something about what it's like to love somebody and not trust them You know, maybe not in that relationship in particular, but I've been in relationships where I'm struggling to trust myself, struggling to trust that person.

9:40So trying to kind of pull from that experience and put it into this one. It's interesting, like later on in the series, there's an episode where there's almost an imaginary version of my dad that I'm in conversation with. but there's a lot of inner child work on the show. There's a little girl who plays my inner child who I talk to on the show. She's amazing. You have not lived till you've seen an eight-year-old girl say, like, fucking the same hoe. So great. I'm so grateful to her parents for allowing us to explore her talents. That filthy mouth is so funny. But I think, oh god, I've lost track of what I was saying.

10:20Oh, so there's this imaginary version of Delroy, of the character of my dad, Edwin, in some ways, Paige has more of a relationship with the imaginary father than she does with the real one because that's who she spent her life with. So kind of just getting real about all of that stuff and trying to fold it into the experience. And Tracy McMillan actually wrote a beautiful memoir about her experiences. There's a line in the pilot that how you got parented is how you partner. And that's what her book is about. And she says, remember that parent and partner are one letter apart. One letter apart.

10:58So brilliant. Yeah. And so the book is really about how the complexity of her relationship with her dad has made it hard for her to be in romantic relationships. And I did a deep dive in that book. And yeah. Yeah. It's funny, too. It's like, you know, especially with the parent as a kid, like you carry such a strong projection of, right? It's like your parent is like this larger than life. They're your sun and your moon. even if they're very flawed people. Because they all are. They all are. We are all flawed. I think that's also one of the things that drew me to the show is that three-generational storyline you talked about because I think so much of what it's about is it's not just a father-daughter story.

11:38It's also a mother-son story. It's also a grandfather-grandson story. And I identify so much with that sandwich generation as somebody who has young children and has aging parents and that dance of really taking care of both. Yeah, absolutely.

12:19have like 30 seconds. Go to Bombas.com and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code audio at checkout.

12:32So it's based on a real person who is a relationship counselor therapist. And in the show, you are one of these therapists that's like on social media talking about your problems and, which is like a real thing. I mean, it's a way that... Huge. And there's a part of it, I think, that just as like a pre-internet kid, like I always wrestle a little bit with like, why are we having to put everything on social media? And like, Chase, who you just met from our video team. I'm always like, Chase, I don't want to be on Instagram. And yet, especially around the topic of mental health, or anything really that's heavily stigmatized.

13:20Social media is this way to de-stigmatize. And it was funny, the quick arc I went through, like, oh my gosh, this character's going to be on talking about it. And then I was like, oh wait, but this is how you change culture, right? And the tools right now are social media. So even though I'm like an old lady trying to get with the times of how this stuff works, or I guess more like get comfortable, with it. What was that like for you? Because you're a really private person. And how did you sort of so fully embody a character that was so comfortable on social media and kind of like growing her business via social media channels?

14:03Yeah, I, I, again, did a really deep dive on Tracy McMillan, because she is on social media. I need to find out more about her. Yeah, she's so, so wonderful. She has a show on OWN called Family or Fiancee and she's really fun. Wait, what does that mean? It's like choosing... Are you my cousin or are you my fiance? No, no. No, it's like you have to choose between marrying this person or are you going to be in loyalty to your fiance or in loyalty to your family? Okay, got it. It's when the families don't get along with the fiance. So she's all about kind of going into these homes and healing relationships.

14:39Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So I really stole a lot from her, but I have, I found a lot of freedom in my relationship with my dad on social media. Like my. Yeah, talk a little bit about that. So I am really private on social and I have still yet to ever post a picture of my kids. Yep. But my, I decided that somebody had to take one for the team, right? Like I needed to have more of my personal life out in the world. And my dad was like waiting in the wings. Because he is, I mean, he just wants to be famous so badly. So this is perfect. It was like the perfect arrangement. I remember we filmed our first video in the craft service truck while I was doing Little Fires with Reese.

15:23And I showed her the edit of the video and she was like, he is everything. I was like, I know. So he's become like the star. He's the mascot. He is. And he, you know, it really does allow for me to kind of, like the dad, I have a dad joke series that I do with him, right, where he tells dad jokes. And in real life, dad jokes are so annoying. Like when my dad tells his jokes, I'm always rolling my eyes. But when I put them on social media, I'm like, this is brilliant. He's so lovable. Like, look at how wonderful he is. So I think I tried to lean into that idea of like, sometimes when we can be more public, it lifts some of the shame or the discomfort.

16:10There's an embrace of our truths when we don't hide them, when we share them. And I think that Paige does a lot of that. She just puts her truths out there because she knows that it will make people feel less alone. And it's funny because I do think that's what we're trying to do with the show also. There are 80 million Americans walking around with criminal records. So if you think about every single one of those people having a story of re-entry into society, and then that each of them is surrounded by a circle of people that love them and that went through their own adjustment period of re-entry.

16:44So the show is about so many of us in this country. So many of us can relate, but we're not talking about it. We tell a lot of stories about what it's like to go into prison, a lot of stories about what it's like to be in prison, but we don't talk about the real challenges of coming out and how that impacts families and lovers and children. Yeah, absolutely. So going back to the mental health piece of that, and I can't wait to watch the rest of the show, but do you, you know, it seems like, right, so you're on social media, you're being very transparent about, like, your stuff, and it's very kind of out there, but then, and I don't know where it's going, so but it seems like and I think it resonated so much with me because I'm always looking for my blind spots which is really hard because they're blind spots and so and I'm like my blind like what are they and I want people to tell me what they are yeah and I think one of the ways of kind of tricking yourself that you don't have blind spots is to be like I'm really vulnerable and I'm putting it all you know out there so does your character like does the father end up teaching her something about her own like blind spots and what she has left to learn absolutely and what are those things well I mean her inability to trust him of course bleeds into her inability to be in healthy romantic relationship.

18:15Yeah, it seems like you have a weird white boyfriend. Very weird white boyfriend. Very weird. And who is played by the lovely Tim Daly. But yes, there are other romantic interests that come along as well. So we get to see her working through her stuff. And her dad does point out her blind spots in big ways. Does your dad point out your blind spots in real life? I think I think my interactions with my dad sometimes reveal my blind spots to me. Yes. Right? Yes, totally. Like, why am I suddenly a 14-year-old child at this dinner table? Like, what is it about me that's getting worked up that I can't be the woman that I am in every other room?

19:05Yeah, so I get that. Sometimes I get aware of my limitations or my lack of boundaries. And who are the people in your life that really do hold that space for you to talk about your blind spots? Yeah. My husband, big time. My therapist, plural, big time. Like my regular therapist, my couples therapist. How many therapists do you have? I have a regular one, a couples one. And then my really, you know, really good old friends, you know. Yeah. Do you have friends from Spence still? I do. I do. I'm not as close to them as I would like to be. Yeah. I know you do. I do. Were you there from kindergarten?

19:51No, 7 through 12. Okay, okay, okay. Great. Were you 7 through 12? Yes, also 7 through 12. The ones who are there from kindergarten through 12 we call survivors. Which sounds pejorative. It does. but I'm glad I was there from 7th to 12th. Yes, me too. Such a great school. It was a good time.

20:17So in terms of the generations of therapy, I feel like I certainly and definitely my friends who are younger than me, there's such an openness about talking about mental health. Yeah. And, you know, I even see with my own kids who are, gosh, 18 and 16, like, there's a sort of fluency with how they feel about something or if they have worries about something or they're naming, like, their anxiety. Do you think that, like, in terms of doing your research of playing a therapist, like, is this a good thing that, you know, because it's sort of, I look at kind of my parents' generation. and it was so stoic and there wasn't a lot of like exploration of self or in that way really and sometimes I think like you know like where is the boundary of kind of putting everything you know processing everything live all the time with everybody listening and then the internal piece of like not that we I would ever want to go back to like my parents generation but how like what do you think the sort of line is there?

21:28Do you think it's healthy? I guess the best way is just to let it all out all the time, or do you think we need more internal processing as well? I've been thinking about this a lot, actually, because I've been in the process of writing a memoir, which is so crazy for me being as private as I am. I love this. I can't wait for this. and I do I've been asking a lot of myself like how much is too much is there too much what's the point of it and I feel like for me it really is very individual and for me it's a lot about intention like what is am I doing this to get attention to sometimes I think the very external processing without any internal process can do more harm than good right like that I love that expression like say what you mean mean what you say don't say it mean and I like to give myself time to process so that when I'm saying what I'm saying I can try to say it without saying it mean so I don't know I I don't know how much is too much I know for me I've erred on doing more privately than publicly.

22:45But it was interesting. It is really interesting to play a character who is so expressive and shares so much of her process because this character was a lot more free than other characters I played. The title Unprisoned is not just about the prison industrial complex. It's also about being imprisoned in our hearts, learning to love each other more and be more ourselves in our relationships. and it was really exciting to play a character who's just so open, you know? She's so, she's also messy, like so messy, but she's not afraid of that. And I think there's some real freedom and lightness and there's power in that in some ways because she doesn't have a lot of shame about being a person who's in process, which is what we all are.

23:36You know, we just are like, we have different levels of performativity of how good we're feeling on a given day. And sometimes that performativity is appropriate, right? Like I don't need to walk into my all-stars, that's what we call our all-hands meeting, like our all-stars meeting and just like put all my crap out there on my employees every day. Like there are appropriate places and times for me to express different things. But yeah. That's amazing. Wait, so what have you found the, like, what is the reason for the memoir? Like, have you figured out why you're writing it? Yeah, I started to get some new information about my family a few years ago.

24:21And it was really beginning to impact almost immediately. It started to impact how I thought about myself and my relationship with my parents. And I wanted to process that and share it and not have shame around it, not feel like I had to keep it a secret. So your intention is to, is it to help other people as well, like process through, or understand how they relate to their own shame? I think it's to share my process of, well, I started to ask myself about my relationship with truth and about my relationship with my own instincts. Wow, what brought that on? This new information. Oh, God. She didn't tell me the new information.

25:12And so I really, I wanted to share that process of like healing my own relationship with truth and with my sense of trusting myself. I sense the third live podcast. when this book comes out. I'm going to send it to you early. When is it coming out? In the fall. Oh, my God. This is so exciting. I love that. You know, you do so many things. Like, you're such, and also just, you know, when I was thinking about you writing a book, like, you also are so inspiring. And, you know, you're, I've been lucky to know you, you know, like this in and out throughout the years. and you have an amazingly inspiring story and you have so much intellect and strength and the way you bring all these interests together and it feels like a book.

26:04I don't know, now that you say it, it feels like a really intuitive thing to be able to create your own narrative. You know what's funny? Thank you, first of all. What's funny is I built this company at Simpson Street where we talk about upending the idea of other and this firm belief that we have at my production company that every single one of us is at the center of the story of our lives. Each one of us is the protagonist of our own story. Hi, Katie. And that none of us is relegated to being a supporting character. We can choose to be supporting characters and we must choose to be supporting characters and forces in people's lives.

26:47But fundamentally, that's a choice because we know that we're the hero of our own journey. And that has been kind of how I've operated and how I've chosen projects as an actor and as a producer. But I realized I was not the center of my personal life, that I was not living as the protagonist of my own story. And that was part of why I wrote the book. I was like, what is this story of my life? And how do I center myself and figure out what my story is and not be afraid of it? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wait, I recognize you. Are you on Scandal? Yes, it's Quint Perkins from Scandal. Oh, my God. I'm starstruck.

27:29When you talk about friends. Oh, my God, how great. Should we talk about Scandal? We can. Katie actually has a podcast about Scandal. Really? It's like a rewatch podcast that she does with Guillermo, who played Hawk. and I just was a guest on it but it hasn't aired yet right my episode soon yeah okay I will be great yes she's a great you see I recommend the live podcast angle for a carry on but so obviously you know I love scandal I was obsessed with it and you know having you I was also really I don't and it was so sweet for me to watch you, like this big star of like a network TV show and everything, and I was so proud.

28:19I was so, I remember, it was like a Grammy week party when you ran up to me and you were like, I'm watching, and I was like, oh my gosh. I was so excited. You've always been so supportive. Well, I mean, and so now you're starring in another TV show. So I returned to television. And so this will go, this isn't just a limited series. Oh, great. We have a few seasons in us. There's a few seasons to this story. And I love it because, again, most of the work I've done is very serious, dramatic work. But, you know, one of the most thrilling weeks of my life was hosting SNL. Like, I love comedy. And I love being able to, you know, I feel like on the piano there are, like, dramatic keys and comedic keys.

29:04And I just love having the full range on this show. That I don't get to, I don't have to choose. I really get to have all those colors of who we are. Yeah, yeah. It's great because we are like that. Yes, you're very funny. I don't know about that.