Laura Dern and Diane Ladd on Their Most Vulnerable Conversations

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2:29People stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming. We turn to ourselves and that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you. and I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world.

3:12Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. It is a great joy to get to introduce this iconic mother-daughter duo for today's episode of the Goop podcast. Laura Dern and her mother, Diane Ladd, are two of the greatest living actors. I recently read their incredible new memoir, Honey Baby Mine. Even though Laura and I are very dear friends, I felt like I got to know her and her mother on a much deeper level after reading this book. Honey Baby Mine documents a series of honest, vulnerable conversations Laura and Diane had together after Diane was given a sudden, life-threatening medical diagnosis.

4:02After being told Diane had six months to live, they started going on walks together. Through these walks, they helped each other heal in different ways. It is remarkable, and I can't recommend the audio version of this book enough. Today I sat down with the two of them to talk about why we tend to wear masks with the people closest to us, how we heal from divorce and family ruptures, how we find a way to speak our truth even when it's incredibly hard, and how to listen more closely with our hearts. Okay, let's get to my conversation with Laura Dern and the Diane Ladd. Are you feeling good, my New York Times bestselling Diane Ladd?

4:54you are so good Cleo and you're an inspiration you know I think if I ever decide to be Catherine Coleman I'm going to ask you to be my partner in crime okay first of all Diane Ladd needs an advice column and who's going to give it to her it should be like an old school radio call-in where people leave a message on a machine with their life question and you answer them with your experience and your spirituality and your wisdom. I love that. Something that really came to me and, and, and we're talking a few weeks after the book has been released and put into the world. And something I think that is really incredible about books, especially when they're so well-written and expressed is that they truly are extensions of the writers in a way that people feel that they really intimately know the writer and the creator of the book.

5:50And something I noticed by doing your book talk in LA a couple of days ago, because it was a week and a half or so since the book had been out, the mothers and daughters who were already resonating with this idea of a mother and a daughter having a radically honest conversation on a series of walks, telling each other everything with very high stakes at the time. Did you expect that you would have this kind of movement around mothers and daughters and them being able to come together? The origin story is, you know, Cleo, is that this was not intended to be a book, that mom was given a diagnosis after severe medical challenges, particularly with her lungs.

6:42and in the hospital with double pneumonia. And we had not known why mom was getting sicker and sicker and her body was being impacted in myriad ways until mom's amazing King Charles Cavalier dog, Ginger, who was our co-star in the HBO show Enlightened and mom felt very close to as a fellow actress and now her beloved bestie pet. And mom one night had let Ginger out in the yard. And what we thought was due on the grass was in fact petrochemicals, pesticide sprays. They had been spraying in and around my mom's house, neighboring farms without notification, which is what is legally supposed to happen.

7:37and mom had been spending three and a half years in this home being sprayed on a regular basis with glyphosates, danitol. Many people have heard of Roundup, similar pesticides as this and multiple. And when the dog came in, she proceeded to have three seizures and die in mom's arms, which was a great tragedy, needless to say, but also the gift in it was we discovered that the pesticides were in Ginger's bloodstream and that's what had happened to her. And then we discovered the same with mom. So we knew what was happening. And the doctor took me aside and said, you're severe scarring in her lungs.

8:25We're diagnosing her, but it's from pesticide exposure and there's not really anything we can do, treat your mother gently. She won't be here in three to six months. And when I pushed to find out if there was any hope, he said, maybe if you get her walking to expand her lung capacity, it might help a bit. So that brought us to me taking mom or forcing her because as mom has shared, what don't you like, mom? I don't know. You hate walking. I hate walking because they made me do it one time when I was like eight from a Catholic school in Mobile, Alabama. Suddenly one day we found out after we got there early in the morning that we weren't going to have school that day because there was a leaking pipe or something.

9:15So the older kids made me walk 10 miles home and I've never wanted to go take a long walk ever since. until now. And now it's a book. The walk and now saved my life. So whatever you don't want to do might, might turn out to be your best friend. And that, and that's what we did. You know, we proceeded to literally one step at a time, mom being on oxygen at the beginning of the walks, we started walking and because she loves story and storytelling and is such an incredible actor that, But, you know, I hope to distract her really by starting these walks and talks every day. Did you just kind of have a premonition of like, I'm going to record this because I have more and more friends who have been doing this lately, wanting this kind of personal, you know, with the idea that our phones are these instant tape recorders now.

10:09So it's not really a cumbersome experience. they've started recording, you know, conversations with their grandmothers and conversations with their parents, asking specific stories from their childhoods and lives to have a record or account, you know, because it discloses, you know, human beings are terrible witnesses. We think that we know, and we think we remember, but our own subconscious and our own wishful thinking changes things. So when you record something, you say, I didn't say that. Well, and that's why, you know, I think we became very transparent with that kind of diagnosis. And mom was aware of, you know, her fragility.

10:52And so we thought, my God, if we have a few months together, you know, how many incredible stories about mom's life that bring me so much joy and so many stories I never knew because I hadn't asked the questions I wanted to archive for myself and mom knew we wanted to archive them for my children, for her grandchildren. We thought I was dying. So we said, okay, we, these talks, some of them are disclosing things that we have not disclosed our truth as your truth. There's my truth. And then somewhere is the truth. So we are doing all this for understanding and why waste it? Since I'm going, you can't ask me later, what did I say?

11:38So you might as well record it now and you have it. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, autobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

12:10Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

12:42I'm really struck by how, you know, as someone who knows you both well, I know how often you speak and how close you are. And anyone who knows you, I think Laura, one of the things they would say about you is, oh, she's very close to her mother. And so I would say that's probably like top three. I'd say Laura is very close with her children. Laura is very close with her mother and Laura is very fun. Laura is very close to her friends. She treasures them like sisters. And, and it's interesting, this idea that you're so close with somebody and there's still so much you don't know because you haven't set intentions to the conversations necessarily to know certain parts of their lives.

13:30So while you'll have this very intentional, loving, respectful way of being in community with each other, you know, you never, I guess, approached your mom in a way that said like, my intention is to like, be almost like your beloved biographer to know you so well that I can know myself better and my children better and in my whole context for aliveness better almost well and talking about mother's day you know men fathers and sons we've been getting some phone calls from men who said their relationship with their mother or even their father a guy the other night was saying you know my father died this year but I had an opportunity to talk to him but if I had read your book before he died I would have been inspired to have deeper talks which I now regret that I didn't so if a book is doing anything thank God it's inspiring people to talk to each other talk really talk and really listen to each other and as I say not with just your ear but the ear of your heart.

14:44And that's a gift. I love that you said that mom, you know, to your point, Cleo, the longing in sharing our experience is because it was so profoundly healing emotionally and big newsflash physically. Mom got better. Mom got stronger with every conversation. no it was not easy trip no arguments where she had to entice me to walk which i didn't like come on mom just a little bench over there and that's actually in in the book i'm usually a very like buy the book hold the book in your hands to explore it and i really think everyone should do that too because it does feel like a quilt or tapestry of a family history that is not only inspiring to hold and witness, but I think it will inspire movement of people making photo albums and things again, because everything's become so digitized that we think like, oh, I just have all these photos in my hand, but you know, you used to scrapbook everything and you'd have a scrapbook of every baby shower and every big moment.

15:49And you'd, and you'd have these books and books and books of these tapestries that look like this book, because in the physical copy, the book is filled with photos and it's filled with like these beautiful pull quotes and a poem that Diane wrote the her first poem she ever wrote and on page 17 am I right Diane finally published yeah and it's a beautiful it's stunning but the the audio of this book is one of the best audios I have ever listened to in my life because you feel that you are brought back to the walk because you have two of the greatest actresses of our time. You feel how sick Diane felt at the time.

16:35You feel Laura's tension trying to get her to just get to the next bench and you feel Diane being pissed. It's amazing. Well, see, here's the thing. When you say these are two of our greatest actresses what does that mean it's like if you said these are two of our greatest doctors they say okay that means they're saving lives maybe these are two of our greatest lawyers okay that means they're defending people but people don't really understand what actresses do or what it means yeah what do you do what does doing mean there's different kinds of medicine and there's different kinds of acting for laura and i we are reality actors we put ourselves in front of that camera as you.

17:15And we relive those things that are parallel to the character in some way. We relive it. We become it instantly. We're trained to do what we call sense memories, emotional memories. It means you relive that emotion and it's alive and it's happening before your eyes. And when we're crying, we're not making believe. We're crying about something that happened in our own life or something that we saw that broke our heart. And those are real tears. And we're paying an emotional price for it as we are doing it, because our job is to hold up a reflection of you, Saint or Sinner, and the times that we're living in.

17:57We're just teachers and reflectors of humanity. So when we got into the audio, I think our own training brought us back into the present as if it was happening right then and there each second, you know, before our eyes. And you listening to it, you felt that. You felt the truth of it, Cleo. So when you're saying it transported me back into time, yeah, it was we transported ourselves into reliving those times. So it was happening in the audio as you're hearing it in our energy field. It is happening just like it happened then. I love the principle, the idea of the artist as the wounded healer, the idea that in writing, in acting, in filmmaking, in music, the expression is coming from truth.

18:50It's our truth that we're sharing that we hope can connect, relate, or even transform someone else's experience. But the beauty of this shared experience with mom, part of that is reflecting on all we've been through and hopefully transforming it. And so mom and I, you know, archived these moments, but what transformed was instead of staying stuck in this idea of, I don't want to bring up hard things, especially when it's a delicate time. So I just won't talk about it. That's what we do as human beings. Yeah. And so I pushed through and said, you know what, maybe this is a time that talking about the hardest things as close as mom and I are, or the simplest, seemingly mundane questions, that maybe it will transform something, our experience, our memory of it.

19:56And so we, on these walks, we went to deepest of heartbreaks. We talked about divorce. We talked about being a working mother. We also, I realized I'd never asked my mom, what's your favorite color? Or what was the first movie that you saw that made you want to be an actor in this tiny town in Mississippi? be. And what's amazing, even with the audio book is there's nothing performative in any of this journey, of course, because it's our real life, but also for all of us, when we talk about an experience with our own child, our best friend and ex-husband, our mother, the more we talk, the more we transform how we are stuck in it.

20:49We have the ability to heal from perspective. And so I heard mom's perspective and she heard that 11 year old or eight year old child's perspective, but the healing is in going, Oh my God, that's what 35 year old Diane was feeling when me, the little girl felt lonely and she was desperate and divorced and had to go leave her kid to go do a job for a tiny bit of money to pay for her apartment she was renting. You know what I mean? And we do mean tiny. Yeah. And we do mean tiny. We shared a bedroom. Yeah. They have no idea what they pay women in those days. Good Lord almighty. It was teeny tiny.

21:35And they think I'm kidding. I'm not. I know. When I tell my kids, you and I shared a bedroom in our apartment when I was a kid, they're like, wait, what? A minute ago, you and Cleo, and I was listening, you made a remark. You said the wounded healer. And I thought to myself instantly, Lord God, that's what I am at this age. I am a wounded healer. And I started to laugh, But at least you can share it and bring in the light if you are willing to do that. And so any perspective gives you not only the past and the richness of finally understanding what was happening, but it opens the door to see a big picture that you haven't seen before.

22:22And to understand it brings in a little bit of wisdom. I always say knowledge, knowledge changes every day, but wisdom is forever. And so when you look back and hear yourself talking, Cleo, on that audio, you go, oh, look at what I said. Oh, look at what she said. Oh, it wasn't the way I thought at all. And then you go, oh, my. Look at. Listen to me. Oh, my. You see your ego. You see your fear. You sit back and you see yourself like you're watching a little child do hopscotch. Someone said to me the other day, oh my God, it's so beautiful how you and your mom have this perfect relationship and you've forgiven everything.

23:05And I thought to myself, mom was so delicate at the time. We talked about one big fight we had and you can hear our upset and our disagreement and that hasn't changed. But then when we did the audio and mom was a little stronger and a little healthier, I got in my car. I was so pissed off. I was like, she still doesn't see my point of view. And I am so right about that. They're like, I think I transported my, I think I reflected myself back at me and I transported to the moment. Now I'm really upset, but that's what we hope too. You know, that it, that it's messy and complicated. We're not here to necessarily agree, but just to be heard and have said it in life.

23:50Yeah. You know, the conversations help you reflect, you know, that's what you go to therapy for. You sit down and somebody listens to you or you meet a stranger on a plane, you tell them everything. Cause you think you're never going to see them again. So people have said to me over the years, you know, I guess it is good to resolve. Like, you know, we've all been through breakups and there are the things that are said in the breakups and you hope for resolution. But then years later to have that conversation again, I'm like, I'm glad some people have had breakups where they ever heard from the person again.

24:27Most people now are either, they just suddenly are ghosted or they're broken up with on text. So we're sitting with so much unfinished business in our lifetime. Well, and things we used to feel belonged in community to heal. We think belong in isolation to heal. Like they should just deal with it. But a lot of that I think is people's cowardice around honesty. And I don't even mean cowardice in a negative way. I mean, we all have our fears and we all struggle to be brave. You know, both of you are two of the most spiritually practiced people I know. Do you feel that it's your spiritual practice that kind of gives way for you to be this honest about yourselves in this book?

25:14There's even a chapter about divorce that is specifically very, I think, intense and really, really honest and emotional. Is it a spiritual practice that allows the bravery to be that way? Is it because you can't be a good actor if you're not honest? Because I think it's such a big part of accessing the emotions and being able to connect. First of all, it's very profound of you to ask the question that you just did in the manner. Because when I read your writings, your poetry, and your writing, I perceive great wisdom coming from you. And that's the thing I appreciate most in your gift that you share with humanity.

26:00when it comes to ourselves. I think that, yes, my answer would be absolutely that the spiritual part of me is my driving force has been from the minute I entered the stage of earth. Earth is a stage, and we're all doing a play. Shakespeare said it. And so we're all of us actors to some extent, but the actor is just the physical vehicle that you're in your body is like a car your soul steps into it you today you're going to go out to the store you clear are going to go get in your car and that was made and polished and fixed and needs gas and oil and brake fluid and all kinds of things to keep it going and then but you it isn't going to go anywhere as of yet because they got new technology coming in but right now it's not going to go anywhere unless cleo gets in that car turns that key presses that button to start it and room takes off so your body is your car even in a dream it is your car and so you cleo your soul some may call it the spirit call it what want.

27:14Get in the life force, gets in that car to go and do what you got to do. So when you step onto the stage of earth, you got a car, it's called your body and your soul or spirit steps into it for while you're here, one hour or 120 years, and you're going to step in there and go do what you got to do. So I don't think Laura and I, the image of trying to be something that we're not is not something we perceive. Yeah, we'll put on a pretty dress and some lipstick to take a picture. But other than that, our whole drive, our MO, modus operandi, is to do what we have to do at that moment in time and align our energy with that.

28:05You know, we align ourselves with people who are similar, but the truth of our life or the spirituality that you're talking about is finding the truth of who we are as people and what we're trying to say of the answers we're trying to find in life and to be good people. When we were writing the book, We weren't writing a book. We had no intention of writing a book. We were trying to reach each other because I could be dead in 24 hours or 30 minutes. I didn't know. So why would I waste time playing any kind of game whatsoever? But I kind of good actresses, you have to listen in order to be a good actor.

28:49That's what you have to do is to listen. but I didn't know how long none of us, the irony is that none of us, some of us get hit by a bus in life. We don't know how long we have to be on the planet. So we have to reach out for the truth and joy and beauty each moment while we live here, whatever your work is, it's part of it. So yes, the answer to your question is indubitably, yes, the spirituality is in everything I do, I hope. But you know, that was so beautifully put mom. And I, I only want to add that I had this weird raw feeling when I got home the other night from our public conversation.

29:31And I think it was because I've spent all these years and watching my parents spend years being private people in a public environment, in a public profession. I've never been interested in sharing my private experience. And so it is so important to us to express the why in sharing this book. And the expression of the why is we can talk about honesty and we can talk about spirituality, but we hadn't been honest with the closest person in our life. We hadn't shared so many stories. I had been going through a painful divorce and there was my mother who'd been through a painful divorce sitting right next to me.

30:26And I didn't tell her the truth of how much pain I was in because I thought I'll just keep going and pretend that I've got this together. And then And hopefully my kids will feel like I have it together. And my mom will hopefully feel like I have it together. What? Why wouldn't I turn to the person closest to me and say, this hurts? How did you do it? So we wanted to share it because we thought none of us can wait for an emergency to be honest because we have areas of honesty in our life. And then we have the blind spots. And there's so much fear around being honest with people closest to us, which is crazy if you think about it.

31:07And yet so many of us are in that pattern. I'm done with subscriptions. Streaming, fitness, razors, vitamins. I've got subscriptions for everything in my life. They lock you in and half the time I can't figure out how to unsubscribe. That's why I'm so excited about the new Blue Apron. Now you can get delicious meals delivered with no subscription needed, including new pre-made options. Keep the flavor. Ditch the subscription. Get 20 % off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com slash terms for more. Diane, you say this really incredible thing about how, you know, everyone is just wanting to be loved and hoping that if they package themselves just right, Even with the people who are there to unconditionally love them, meaning that there needs to be no conditions.