On Big Friendships and What Makes Them Last

0:00I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

0:31Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. I've been in and out a lot lately for work, press and photo shoots, the usual whirlwind.

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2:09Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it, want it, let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go. For me, our soul is like it's unbound. It's limitless, but we will use words to limit ourselves. When people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves and that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and this is the Goop podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you.

2:58And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world. Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. My guest today is someone who I love and adore so much. When I was first asked to co-host this podcast, Gwyneth asked me who I was most looking forward to talking to, and I told her I was really excited to have my friend Aminatu Sal on to talk about friendship.

3:40And when I wondered if I could actually pull this off, part of how I dreamt or walked myself there was envisioning this conversation. So I'm very excited to share it all with you today. Aminatou Sow is the New York Times bestselling author of Big Friendship, How We Keep Each Other Close, which she co-wrote with her friend Anne Friedman. They also hosted and produced the amazing podcast Call Your Girlfriend for more than a decade. Today, we did what we do. We talked about what it really takes to create bonds for the long haul. And just like our friendship, today's conversation is hearty, honest, and full of laughter.

4:23Okay, let's get to Aminatou Sal.

4:29You know, A, I'm so grateful that you came on. And I have big friendship, And I actually have this off back because I love this. You're so sweet to me. But Big Friendship was a book that really impacted me. Like the definition of Big Friendship, which is you define Big Friendship. Big Friendship is a bond of great strength, force and significance that transcends life phases, geography and emotional shifts. It is large in dimension affecting most aspects of each person's life. It is full of meaning and resonance. A big friendship is reciprocal with both parties feeling worthy of each other and willing to give of themselves in generous ways.

5:12A big friendship is active, hearty, and almost always a big friendship is mature. Its advanced age commands respect and predicts its ability to last far into the future. That definition of friendship, as somebody who takes friendship so seriously, I would go so far as to say I am obsessed with friendship. I'm obsessed with its healing powers. I'm obsessed with the way that it is at times the only thing that feels safe and it's such an unsafe world. And as at times, the only thing that feels stable and really destabilizing energies around us, whether that's environmentally or in our own family, my chosen family and my friends have always been the way I've gotten through almost anything that was tough to get through.

6:03And so I first want to thank you for, for putting it into word because it really was so validating for me. And I'd love to just kind of know the process, I guess, around how you and Anne came to that definition. I mean, obviously you're an incredible writer in so many mediums but it was that something you kind of worked on almost the way of mathematicians working on a theory kind of thing oh Cleo you're just like so perceptive and so I'm feeling a little emotional like even answering your question like you're when you said that it was very validating for you that made me very emotional because I think that looking back on it now right it's like that book has been out for three years which if you don't know about like how the publishing process works it's like three years is probably the same amount of time that it takes you to make a book so that book has been percolating for you know I guess now I'm like wow more than half a decade and so in some ways I feel really far away from the person who wrote it and in other ways I'm like that's exactly who I am and so you know I wrote that book with Anne Friedman who is my big friend.

7:18She's my longtime collaborator in a lot of mediums. And I think that, you know, the definition was so important for us to nail because Anne and I are both words people. We are words people to our core. You also are a word person. And I think that's something that is really, you know, like speaking for myself, like something that I find very frustrating when I'm processing my emotions is when I don't have language to put to it. You know, I can understand what's going on in my body. I understand what's going on in my mind. But if I don't know how to explain it, it truly, it starts to drive me crazy.

7:56And I think that so much of the language of friendship generally is very infantilizing. It's very, oh, you meet someone on the playground, or, you know, like female friendships, like, isn't that very cute? Or, you know, friendship takes this big backstage this big like step back like friendship really is it's a relationship that is not as celebrated or not taken as seriously as you know like other other bigger bonds specifically like family bonds and i think that that is or and and or romantic bonds yeah and especially romantic bonds you know and some of that i think is it's fully like capitalism does that it's like well the the government and the state and religion is very invested in people having you know having strong family units and small children and blah blah blah like that's the sinister side of it but the non-sinister side of it is i'm like well actually also capitalism makes it really hard for us to have time to tend to the various relationships in our lives and and because we have these social scripts i think like you know romantic relationships are super celebrated family bonds are talked about in this way that's really important friendship just is kind of hanging out there in the ether but as you say it's a relationship that's important to a lot of people And it's the, it is the safety net for a lot of people.

9:12Yes. Most people when they are, you know, when my friends are going through breakups or divorce or incredible grief, it is always this kind of circle of friendship that has woven a net for them to rest and be in and that they are held by in that moment. Fully, fully. It's like at your most vulnerable, your safety net can be your friendships. And what is terrifying about that is that here is, you know, this fabric that is supposed to be very strong. But what happens if you're not really tending to it or you're not thinking about it as intentionally as you do for other things? And so it's funny that you use that language of like the, you know, like a math equation earlier when you were asking me.

9:55But I do think that, yeah, it's like Anne and I are very nerdy. We sat down. We, you know, our friendship is long and it's big. And like all bonds, it's complicated, you know. And I think that we were both really trying to sit down and understand, like, what are we doing here? Because we did some things that were, like, very, looking back on it now, like, very countercultural, but didn't realize that we were doing them, you know? Like, for a long time, we were each other's, like, dates to weddings. I'm like, you don't need a social escort that's, like, a man. Or we would give gifts together. You know, on one hand, that's very cute.

10:28But on the other hand, it's like, hi, I can't afford to go to the social event alone. And I really mean, like, afford financially. And we're not, like, dating anyone. So like, let's go together. It's like you really kind of start to retool your life around like, how do I be a person in the world who is myself, and also not someone who has to depend on my romantic bonds or my familial bonds to do all of the work for me? one thing that you do that I always really appreciate and love and I think that it's like creating this language around that like anytime we see each other and it's been a long absence you ask me about the important people in my life and sometimes like a lot of times that is friends you know in a way that is very normalized like in the way that people go oh how's your how is your parent doing or how is your spouse doing and really being like oh how are your big friendships Yeah, yeah.

11:20And even that is just putting language and recognizing that, like, for some people, these are the important people in their life. And so, so much of, I think, solving this problem, the problem of like, okay, how do I put my friendships at the forefront, is a problem of language. And it's a problem of vocabulary. Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo.

11:55Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

12:32Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. One of the questions I get asked the most, and at times I feel such a desire to want to solve, but it's also hard when you're like, okay, but I'm like a writer who writes. I don't know how to solve what people are calling the friendship recession. although I want to, because it's something that is so deep in my core values that I truly love friendship. And I think the ultimate gift everyone should have. I think that if you could fall in love with, you know, one or 10 friends in your whole life, that would be, I'd say the gift I'd tell my daughters, just find great friends.

13:13I don't think I'd even say find the love of your life in like a partner before I'd say, find a good friend. I know, but for me, the great loves of my life have been my friends. You know, when I really sit down and I, I look at it as we hurdle towards middle age, I really look at it. I was like, wow, I was like some of my most like deep. And I would say like some of them, like very romantic moments have been with friends, you know, that doesn't take away from the, the wonderful partners that I've had. Simon and I, we, you know, we met and we were very soon after we met pregnant and together and having this family.

13:47And, and when people ask me about it, I'm like, you know, I felt that we were friends. Like I felt that I, what I actually had found the most amazing friend and I felt the friendship that I felt with my other friends, that it was a similar feeling I'd felt to being with my other big friends and I dated it. I mean, imagine not being friends with the romantic part. It's like, I think about it now and I'm like, oh, that's awful. But that is not the intention that a lot of people bring to it. So that's true. Some of that also is because the connection is something that has to be worked on constantly, right?

14:22It's like we have that language of like marriage is hard work. And that's true. It's true. It's like you have to show up every day. You have to stretch yourself. You have to be flexible. You have to be open, receptive. Well, it turns out friendship is the exact same way where you have to work. And also there's very little research on friendship. That was something that was really, like we were so bummed when we were looking that up. You know, you're just like, if you look at research on like any other kind of like big bond, it's, it's everywhere. It's just like there's social science galore. And with friendship, there was so little of it.

14:54And what's really interesting right now, and tell me if you noticed this too, there are so many articles around loneliness and not a lot around friendship. So like, I think we're just talking about like this idea of the friendship recession, but there's still five articles total on it all at like the New York times. And there's a million, loneliness is the epidemic, 40 % of the world says they're lonely, something, something, loneliness, like depression, this, anxiety, this, all tying it to loneliness. And there's nothing around meeting friends, making friends, how to treat a friend, value systems within friendship that make them sustainable.

15:37and right it's like the same problem just a different lens every time they look at it well but here's the thing right it's like loneliness is a perfect example I like people are lonely I I am someone who knows a lot of people you have someone who knows a lot of people we have a lot of friends I experience loneliness a lot and you know and I think that it also really challenged me to think about the definition of loneliness you know that I really stick to is that it's not not having friends it's actually the gap that you are experiencing between your relationships and how you are feeling in them you know a lot of times what the work that loneliness requires is like reaching out to people that are that are around you because I think that's something that I am really trying to combat is also this idea that having healthy friendships or being a good friend means that you have multiple friendships actually that's very hard it's also a very modern idea honestly it's like if you look at even a generation before us it's like people just know fewer people but for us it's like because of technology because of travel or like who you are in the world or whatever you end up or even this shows you that the current generation of adults grow up on whether that was you know being in your early 20s or teens watching sex in the city i say that all the time i'm like i i literally like when i was when i was paying attention to the world like more you know and my teens I everything I saw was living single and you know and then there was this boom of like friendship comedies or buddy buddy this or you know even being older and and bridesmaids coming out all these things and you write about that in the book too like the idea of like squads that again it's like very reductive and like infantilizing to the bonds that we have and I think that you know some of it was definitely a trend it's like your squad is big and it's whatever.

17:28But if you really sit down to start looking at how those bonds are, it's very tenuous. And something that was also interesting, actually, in the very little research that was there is kind of like romantic relationships. Friendship has a seven year turnover. Every seven years people. And that's like, and honestly, if you think about it, it makes sense. It's like, yeah, I would say high school to early adulthood. Yeah. I actually was talking to my therapist about this semi recently about how things just change so much and the friendships change so much and and I I wrote about kind of a little bit about friendship breakups and my new book and it's like I was saying that's like wow you know from grammar school and early childhood I have two of my friends that I'm still friends with now we've been friends for 30 years and then I have one who is actually still from that time period but I only have one friend from high school.

18:19I don't have a single friend that I went to high school with. And now I'm starting to see such a difference from my first 10 years of being in New York and the difference of those people being like, wow. And, and not only people who were your friends, but then they feel completely out of your life. Like they feel like, whoa, who was I even then that like we were friends, you know because you feel they feel so distant because it's not because of them or even because of conflict but you feel so distant from being that being who you were at 20 you you're literally not that person anymore and I think that but think about it this way right it's like you're not the person that you were 20 years ago those people are also not the people that they were 20 years ago and having some grace for that and also you know not discounting the fact that we had two years of being at home isolated, which also that did like on a global level, I think it did a big number on a lot of our friendships.

19:16So I try to hold on. Do you think everyone changes? Cause I think some people have this really tight grip on not changing and that actually creates the rupture. It's almost like this, like they're like emotionally like Paris Hilton, you know, she has like, she has maintained the look. Like she has literally been like, I don't care what trends come and go I will like always dress the way I look this is my vibe and I always say this as like Paris Hilton's like just like owning of like her decision that she is it's like yeah well and I know people who are like that like they're my dad's kind of like that to be honest I know I would I would put my dad in that category but I guess like you know those are all changes that are external that we see right and I think that it's easy to just be like okay you look like you were the same I and I do think that some people are a thousand percent this thing that you're saying wedded to their narrative they are who they are wedded but I have become I've become like very less worried about those people than I am worried about my like you know I was like the only the only thing that I can really know actually for a fact is is inside of me it's like you can't you can't know how someone else is doing but I think that yeah it's like not growing together or not evolving together is something that is very painful it's very hard but at the same time I'm just like growing together and changing together is also hard because sometimes that change is not you know it's not like your friend had a lobotomy and it's different they're all these like sometimes like very small threats in our in a friendship like Anna and I write about this like the big things in our friendship we were 100 % like repair for like I was someone who like I experienced a lot of chronic illness that has never been a contention point in our friendship but in some friendships like that's a huge problem it's like oh one of you you know like somebody has mental illness or someone has like a physical ailment or whatever you can't deal with that or somebody becomes pregnant and you can't deal those are like big changes but then there's a really small changes like oh actually my friend now has a job that she has to work the night shift and so that means that the times that we talk to each other are different that's something that I like ann and i always joke that one of the reasons that our friendship works so well is because she's always behind in the time zones and this is a hundred percent true like anytime our time zones have shifted i have a small panic crisis it sounds so silly to say but i think that really realizing that sometimes it's just like small things that like creep on you or even like a change in your routine or you know it it doesn't have to be like your friend has a partner that you don't like that's the thing that's like will sink you.

21:53It's just being really attentive to like, how, how do we have to adapt all the time and how are we adapting to each other? Well, and again, because there's not a lot of research or language around friendship, people really don't know how to be with each other in a way that enables you to grow together. So it's like, for example, something I've really learned from you, from how you practice it is giving grace. So you'll say if I, you know, come and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you had to cancel. I'm so sorry. And you'll like, pause my kind of frenzied, like, Oh, I'm disappointed in myself. I wish, you know, my kind of fight with the reality of my circumstances, hoping I could have been there on time or not had to cancel or didn't, you know, all the things.

22:39And you'll say to me like, Hey, you're managing a lot. You're, we all have a lot going on. Our lives are so busy. like what we have to give each other is grace. You said that to me maybe five years ago, and that really impacted how I interact with truly every single one of my friends. There's probably been two things you've said to me that I've either practiced or repeated. Someone has given me advice. And one of them is, is giving grace of like, Hey, saying, I know you're busy and, and giving grace when people cancel and giving grace and not taking it personally or feeling some need to punish them because your feelings are hurt or, or feeling somehow good about yourself, that they were disappointed because it made you feel like loved or needed or something like that.

23:24Like kind of releasing the ego from the experience of somebody coming up short in like the moment as we all do. And then the other thing is I, I can't tell you how often I repeat this. I don't remember who or what I was saying to you, um, saying, asking, getting your advice on about a friend. And you said to me, you know, you just have to ask yourself, is the energy I want to put into this an investment in a lifelong relationship? If so, what does that take? What does it take if I want this person lifelong? Because we ask ourselves that all the time. If we have kids with somebody or we're married, they're our parent or our sibling.

24:01We're like, well, listen, I know. Do I want to be in relationship with you my whole life? you know, we, we subconsciously ask ourselves that every time we have a fight with a sibling and we try to mend it or just show up at the holiday. And even if we're still hurt or, you know, there's lingering, you know, negative feelings. And we never say that about friends. The other day, someone said like, one of my best friends is getting married and she asked me to be a bridesmaid and she has a bunch of us. And I just really don't want to do it. It's just so not my thing. And I said that advice to her.

24:36I was like, well, you just have to ask yourself, like, is this a lifelong friend for you? Because if so, you kind of got to eat it and just be the, like, even though it's not your thing, if you think it's going to upset her, like you just got to eat it. Like you got, you have to say like, this is, this is a moment. And I was like, and I guarantee you when the ceremony is over and at the party or at the whatever, when you see this person having so much joy, you're going to feel so happy that you offered that service that was, that was doing, giving her the things she wanted on her special day. Especially if it doesn't cost you anything, like, you know, cause I think that there's a way to weaponize this and just be like, be a doormat, which is not what I'm saying at all.

25:18Like what we were saying is really, if it doesn't cost you your soul to show up for someone in the way that they need you to show up for them, especially if you think that they're going to be a lifelong person in your life, And that's generosity of spirit and soul. You sit there and you say, what can I afford to give here? And there can be boundaries there, right? I said to her, I was like, you can do the bare minimum, but be in a good mood about it. And just do the thing. Make the investment in your friend. I know. But dude, also weddings bring out the worst in people. one of my I think like worst friendship breakups that I've ever had was someone who was getting married and you know like I went to college in Texas and this is not just a Texas thing but it's like Texas weddings are like big in their own way yeah and also in America it turns out that if you are in a wedding party you have to pay for everything in Africa it's the opposite if you ask someone to be in your wedding party you basically are the one that's pampering them You pay for everything.

26:22You pay for their hair, you pay for their dress, their blah, blah, blah. But this friend had asked me to be in her wedding. And it was one of those like, you know, bachelorette party, like$2 ,000, you know, you had to wear a certain kind of shoe or whatever. And I was really honest with her that I couldn't afford it. It was just like, truly, I was like, I will not take I paid my own way through college. You know, like, I just my parents had not helped me like the whole thing. And I was really honest with her. I was like, Hi, I have made a lot of financial bad financial decisions around our friends weddings and i'm trying to like you know clean up my debt and all this stuff and so i was like i love you i i just you know like i don't have the almost like 10 grand it takes to be in your wedding and which isn't insane by the way i know it's insane it's insane also this is like recession money you know what i mean like 2008 2007 recession that's so that's like a million dollars today as far as i'm concerned because that's what that's the thing that like ruined our friendship you know and I remember having a lot of shame about it when I was young and then looking at it through like you know my more adult eyes now I was like wow like I am really sad that I'm no longer friends with this person but also I was proud of myself for standing up for myself I was like okay I didn't do like imagine if I had taken on that debt to be in the wedding of someone who didn't like that I was poor.

27:46But it's also like, imagine how to communicate around it. I was gonna say, imagine if that person could have read Big Friendship, you know, those years ago, because it's like, there's also this idea that people know how to be friends, and they don't. Also, everybody needs different things, just because you and I, our relationship works in a certain way. And sure, like we have practices that keep it healthy and strong. I can't assume that that is going to make my friendship with someone else run the exact same way. You're truly in relationships with different people. And so different people have different wants, they have different needs, they have different whatever.

28:25And that's why I think that like having grace for each other is so important, right? Because even I think that for me, that was a huge point of understanding that I had to, I had to grow up because someone being, you know, like late or not showing up for me in the way that I wanted or whatever, like taking that super personally, I, you know, like I get it. The wounded child will always be a wounded child, but that's my own work. But at the same time, like, I think that it's a little insane to walk around thinking that people just want to hurt you on purpose. You know, it's like, imagine like someone who loves you, they wake up every day and they go, hmm, I'm gonna disappoint Cleo today.

29:01It's like, no, no one is doing that. It's like life is busy and weird and sure. Like you can, you can adapt around it and you know, all of those things. But I think that really remembering that like everybody loves you and is doing their best and their life is just as challenging as yours is. That keeps me very honest in a lot of my relationships. Yeah. I'd say that there's people who I thought I could find connection with and then didn't have connection with them and based on like one single thing, which is they thought they're, they're busy was the most important busy. Absolutely. And I really like, and that's a, that's such a thing though.

29:37Do you know, like I feel that people like, are like, no, no, my busy is more important than your busy. And I think that even as a, you know, there's things you put on the map. Like when I had kids, you know, I had to level set some things of being like, okay, there has to be acknowledgement that emotionally I have this other emotional labor I do so that the whether it's like how you can show up and in what ways you can show up are different at different times and and whatever and and but the I never treat any way that I am busy like it's more important than somebody else's because it's so fucking annoying like no it's not it's so egotistical and it's like like sorry like no you don't deserve to be late like be on time like you're busy is not more than somebody else's yeah it's like we all have we all have the same amount of time and the time means something to us like something that I appreciate about you and a lot of my friends who are moms actually this is one thing that I cannot complain about the mothers in my life truly and I know that's not the experience of a lot of people who don't have kids is I'm like my mom friends never make me feel that my time is not as important as their time you know like sure they like you have two kids when your time with your kids is precious our friendship has had to change it's adapted but the time that we spend together I never feel that it's like less than or you know I was like okay you choose like your time is dominated by like these priorities the priorities that I have are never made to feel less important now but I think that that's also another thing that like if you have language and you know how to communicate in a healthy way we hear this all the time like especially when I used to host call your girlfriend with Ann like people would write in and be like my friend is married now and I don't see her enough or my you know like my friend has babies now she doesn't think that my you know like take that I have to take is as important as like her spending time with their kids and I was like you know maybe that's true but also maybe what's happening here is that you don't have the tools to tell each other that what you want it's just you're like because ultimately what you want is you're like hi our lives have a different reality how do we adapt to it and how do we still show each other and if you could have that conversation in a non-threatening way then it doesn't become about the material conditions about your life anymore it never becomes like oh your status my status this and this and that and that is something that I really mourn I think the fact that we don't have more social support in society for figuring that out you know because it's even the fact that when our friendship was like really filtering and I remember walking into the therapist office and being like oh this is gonna be perfect we're gonna break up in a very goop way you know like we're gonna have the best friendship breakup that two friends have ever had it's gonna be healthy or whatever what I had not anticipated is that we would come out of therapy different friends but better friends like I love like our friendship is so you know it's like what like 15 years now we just had our friendship anniversary like this week and I don't know how to do that math but it was one of those things that I was like I was really reflecting on it and I was like wow are you know like in some ways the friendship is the exact same like we're goofy in the same way like we're like all the same nonsense but in other ways I was like wow this is so much stronger it's better I had not anticipated that at all but the thought of being like oh everyone who has a friendship problem go to therapy i'm like no actually i wouldn't recommend it financially i don't think it's feasible also emotionally it's not what most people need like we were two people that that was the intervention we needed but imagine if we had a society where like you had other resources for that if you're struggling in your marriage you can like go to your like other married friends and be like hey can you can we talk about this if you're having trouble in your family there are other family members that you could go to.

33:25There is such a shame about talking about your friendship problems with your other friends, you know, in a way that like we just don't have that. This holiday season, choose gifts that feel thoughtful and practical with Omaha Steaks. Whether you're hosting or gifting, they deliver the world's best steak experience, and it makes you look like you planned way ahead. They've got USDA certified tender steaks, juicy burgers, comfort meals, and tons more. Gifting Omaha Steaks is honestly one of the easiest wins. Everything arrives beautifully packaged, super convenient, and the quality is unbelievable.

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