On Mothers and Daughters (with Blythe Danner)

0:02When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world.

0:58Here we go. Hi, it's Kiki Koroshetz, VP of Continent Goop. For this week's episode, we're sharing your a really special one from our archives. In 2018, shortly after we launched the Goop podcast, Gwyneth sat down with her own mom, actress Blythe Danner. This conversation is full of such sweet and beautiful moments. I hope you'll enjoy visiting it as much as we did.

1:26Thanks for coming on the Goop podcast. All right, Darlene. I can't believe you asked your mother. Of course. You don't even return my calls. Yeah, right. I'm kidding. how I got into this, I'll never know. Why am I sounding like your father? I'm trying to do a Brooklyn accent. He's here. He's with us somewhere. He's hovering in the room. And so when I was thinking about questions that I wanted to ask you, I feel like I got so much of my femininity and creativity and artistry from you. And I'm just really curious about when you felt that in yourself and kind of the path that it put you on. Well, what about your father's pink cashmere socks?

2:16We're not talking about my father. This is not about him. I'd rather talk about him and you. I had no consciousness of that. No, I was raised in a household where in the 50s, 40s, you were expected to be daddy's little girl. And my mother, as you know, was very conscious of bows and... External appearances. Yeah. I think, you know, I think music had such a major chord in my life and our family's life. Those were the happiest times I can remember. What was it like? It was an escape to something that was joyful. And, you know, all families are complicated. And if there was any stress or it was a way my father had a glorious voice.

3:08So did my mother and my brother. We all sang. And we would harmonize and harmonize. Did anybody play the piano? Yeah. My brother played the piano. And would you all kind of gather around together and sing? As you know, at our parties, that was the main attraction. And my parents would have parties that would go. My mom tried to once have a Christmas party. She always did invite somebody at 5 to 7, 7 to 9, 9 to 8. People did that long ago, and nobody would ever leave. They'd all wait for the singing, and they had opera singer friends, and the house was just so full of joy. So your father was a banker, but he was also, he moonlit as an opera singer?

3:52As a singer in different churches and with the Philadelphia Chamber Orchestra, mom and dad met at the Philadelphia Choral Society. So they've just, that was just such an important part. And I guess, as I say, I don't remember any conscious femininity. I think it was just because I was, as a matter of fact, I think my mom was disappointed because she would have me all dressed up in beautiful little crinolines and hair perfect. And two minutes later, I was a mess because I was a tomboy. I mean, I guess the way that I mean femininity in this context is sort of that connection to yourself and the softness and the imagination and the art more than like physical femininity.

4:37Yeah, I know. But I am not that deep. I can't go there. No, I just remember wanting always to escape somehow. myself and that didn't have I wasn't an unhappy family I mean it was a lot of as I say everyone's complicated but I remember staring into the mirror and saying my name over and over and over and all of a sudden I'd go whomp into the I'd go into outer space and I loved being somebody other than than me and we're hypnotizing yourself I guess it was and and I think that's why I was so drawn to acting ultimately. I told you I was listening to your friend the other day on NPR, Tandy Newton, who was saying she was so happy to escape into acting because she didn't have to be herself.

5:30And I remember how surprised I was when you told Katie Couric you were interested, drawn to acting, because when you saw your mother, and then we won't talk about me anymore. Oh, sure. When you saw me on stage, I was seen so much more powerful than I was in life. And that really startled me because I'd never consciously thought of that. But it's absolutely true and accurate. I think a lot of actors are drawn insecure. What do you think you wanted to escape from when you talk about escaping? Myself. Because I think unlike you, thank goodness you have a good, strong part of your dad. and I think you came into the world with a very strong self-image and I couldn't harm that.

6:18I may have tried. I may have tried to sway you to, you know, being more conforming to what I thought was the proper young girl and you were a rebel from the beginning, but thank God. I mean, when I think of your extraordinary talent as a little girl, you knew my speeches before I did it too. We were at Williamstown with Chekhov and harmonizing, speaking of which, I would do a simple third above the melody. And you were doing two sixes and sevens and harmonics. I'd do double takes and say, what? Who is this? The piano teacher threw the book away, said, I can't teach her a thing. It's all by ear with her.

7:02And you just always, and you had a strength and you knew who you were. And I should have been wise enough. And that's what still bothers me, that I didn't have the wisdom, which I think your dad did, to observe, to know that you were this creature. Unlike anything I knew, this combination of our crazy genes, possibly. Do you think that, I mean, when I think about you being little and being a tomboy and loving music, it sounds a lot like me. And so I just wonder, do you feel like, because your mother was so strong, do you think she sort of disconnected you from yourself in some way? Like, did she kind of suppress that or you were trying to kind of be what she wanted you to be and you lost something?

7:58She encouraged, I mean, she was very funny and, you know, she encouraged the music and she encouraged creativity. It's just that as I don't know, I wish I knew exactly how to answer that. I don't remember her suppressing those things. Well, there was a lot of like blaming and shaming, right? Well, yeah. I mean, you know, German Lutheran background. I mean, and I was very religious growing up because to me, you know, Luther League and going to church. And again, the music was what was so wonderful. My brother and I would walk home singing. So there was that element, yeah, which is also probably why I chose your father, who was antithetical to all of that.

8:43My wild man, my irreverent bruising. But I wouldn't blame. I mean, I guess that's very difficult when you, you know, everybody has an element of that in their family. There are very few families, I think, that are without that element of discord or blaming. Yeah, that's true. But I really did adore my mom, especially. I don't know why. Well, I know you have your issues, but I did too. But, you know, she ruled the roost and the men were kind of in the background compared to mom. For sure. I think that, you know, looking back, putting aside the fact that I didn't have a very good relationship with her, there was something very powerful about her.

9:37And I think, you know, she sort of created this line of feminine energy that we're all still working off of and through. In her case, she probably could have, you know, expressed it in a healthier way. But also to your point, I remember you saying that she was incredibly musical and a brilliant performer and she was very much suppressed. That's right. So tell me about that. Well, she was discouraged from her first marriage. They were in Germany. That side of the family, my half-brother, William Menick and son, they're 13 generations of violin makers. And each son would go and study with the person who taught them in Europe.

10:25That was a tradition for many, many years. A mother was there with, we called him Uncle Bill. We were all very close, even though they were divorced. It's kind of a little bit of conscious uncoupling there. That's right. Now you know where I get it. Yeah. She was a dazzler. She was really beautiful. She was. I mean, I would have said she was the prettiest of certainly our generation and hers of all of her sisters. And she would walk into a club and they'd strike up, Dinah, is there anything finer? And she was in her element with her frou-frou, you know, her ostrich feather thing. thing and she was just she just adored it and she was asked to record with a band in Germany and her husband I think he discouraged that so I think she was frustrated and sort of through me wanted me to be a glamorous actress and have long red nails and bleached hair and couldn't understand why I was attracted to these non-glamorous roles.

11:27You're definitely more alternative than your mother. And politically, too. I mean, my parents were Republicans, and they were furious with me when I registered as a Democrat. I went to a Quaker school, and my best friend's mother had been carried out of the Treasury Department on a stretcher during the Vietnam War. And, you know, perhaps mom and, oh, they didn't even want me to really go there to visit, but they grew to love them. But they were very different. So you're still a very free thinker. I think it was the Quaker influence. How so? Well, they're, you know, peace people. And that was really all that education that I had at George School and had been to a Quaker school in first grade.

12:13So I think it just kind of permeated. I remember you taking us to Quaker meeting when we were little and I loved it because they served Tang in the children's section downstairs. Remember, we used to go to Westwood all the time. Yes, until that strange woman wanted to wash your feet and pretend she was married. I think it was a Jesus thing. I don't know, I was kind of into it. It was the West Coast version of Quaker. Not the Richard Nixon. So you went to George school. You were thinking about, or you were being educated in this? Socialism. Socialism. And peace and social responsibility. And did they nurture your acting there as well?

13:01There was a wonderful acting teacher there. And that's actually where I started. Well, I was watching my parents at the Parent Teacher Association. They were so glamorous and they'd dress up. Mom would dress up and dad had his tux on and they'd entertain everybody with Jeanette McDonald, Nelson, Eddie, you know, dazzling. Poor daddy could never remember his words, which I inherited, sadly, and he'd read them off his cuffs. So when you graduated George School, where did you... I want to talk about you. Mom, you can't talk about me. This is about you. I'm interviewing you. You're my daughter. Well, maybe later.

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14:21And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene, for the moments that move your business. So what happened after George School? Well, after George School, I wanted to come to New York and be an actress. And my dad said, no, you could go to Germany for a year because there was a very good exchange program. And I was friendly with the exchange student that year. Or go to college. and so I chose to go to Berlin which was a bizarre year because it was the year the wall was beginning to be built the people were escaping and shot out we could hear them at school and it was very intense and I wanted to but I joined America House and a little group at America House and as the people were escaping they would come Some of them who managed to would come to America House to get their papers processed and sit in the audience while we were up there performing things like I'm Just Wild About Harry.

15:39And they were sitting in tears, having just escaped. I always wish I could be a writer and really write about it. And I'd say, are they crying because we're so bad? No, they just escaped. So that made quite an impact. Did you have a boyfriend in Berlin? I had a young friend, but not a boyfriend. I was a really slow starter. Really? He was a wonderful, funny, poor boy whose mother had killed herself. I was very drawn to him. He was a dear lost soul. Oh, dear. That's what Dad used to call a fixer-upper. We're not in the fix-em-up business. Oh, my gosh. That's right. But were you in love with him?

16:21No. No. It was like a little brother. So you had a whole year in Berlin. Yeah, very long time. Unlike you, it's a short time in Spain. I wish they had curtailed them a bit. I wish I'd gone to Paris, actually. Did it feel too long? Yeah, it was strange. Well, it was a very odd, you know, it was a fraught time. It was fraught with all kinds of political upheaval and darkness. It was not a pleasant time now. So you came back and you enrolled in Bard College? I went to Bard College back in the days when it isn't as grand as it is now academically. Now it's hard to get into Bard. Then they just said, come, we need people.

17:06Now it's impossible to get in. But it was great. I mean, it was a weird... What was the best thing about it? Terrific, you know, terrific drama department. We would be doing Shakespeare out in the garden and have to hold with our arms extended doing Shakespeare while the train passed below. You know, it was wonderful. It was crazy and a lot of nutty people. Yeah. You had a boyfriend there. A couple. You don't want to talk about that? Nah. Why not? Oh, why? Because it's so fascinating. Lots of laughter, which was great. Okay. But nobody as funny as your dad, you know. I have to say, when you were born, he always used these sports analogies, which I always went over my head.

17:50But they said, when you were born, they said, oh, we want to take a picture. We always photograph it. And Daddy said, forget about it. She looks like Rocky Graziano after the Sugar Ray Robinson fight. Because you had this beautiful, large head, which didn't want to come through very easily. You were all smushed. So I was a hideous newborn, is what you're saying. It was hilarious. He always had a sports analogy. And then he was racy. seen up the Pacific Coast Highway to where we were living in Trankus. I was still in the hospital and had these got pulled over by the cops. And he had It's a Girl buttons all over him.

18:27And he jumped out and he said, forget about it. Not tonight. Not tonight. Oh, my God. He loved life more than anyone I've ever known. I know. Except maybe you. You got that from him, too. You're jumping ahead. Well, I've always been curious about your romantic life before dad, because, you know, daddy was such a huge figure in your life and all of our lives. And so I always wondered, was there anybody else you ever loved? Well, the fact, you know, it's funny. I don't know that I did. Wow. It's very, it's, I think he was my little, he was my big savior. You know, I met him and immediately just whomp, just felt, this is the only person, and I adored my father and my brothers, but the first person who I felt was completely comfortable in his own skin.

19:32I don't think I had ever experienced quite bad because my dad was a great gentleman and always was incredibly kind and proper. Bruce used to joke, he came over and had his first Jewish meal, as he called it, you know, from Zabar's. He said he never unbuttoned his vest, his three-piece suit. His first Jewish meal. Bruce. I mean, I love it. Bagel and dad had never had lox and bagels. And Bruce was very taken with him. He really loved my father. You know what I wanted to know was how did you start your professional acting career after college? What was the break? Well, I've been, you know, had wonderful time with Bard and met.

20:21I had a great teacher there, Charlie Kakisakis, who said people used to say it meant cheats at checkers in Greek, but it didn't. Kakisakis. Kakisakis. Sounds like an ailment of the anus or something. Well, then we had Nico Saccharopoulos. I was attracted to all these Greek, you know, from Williamstown. So Charlie said, listen, there's a great company, Fishkill, New York, and I'd like you to play Laura in the Glass Menagerie. He said, you'll get your equity card. I went, no kidding. So I played Laura in the Glass Menagerie and got my equity card. And then after that, I guess I went up to the Theater Company of Boston where Dustin Hoffman, Bobby Duvall, Ralph Waite.

21:04That was, you know, and then Ben Affleck's dad was the stage manager. Oh, that's right. Yeah, a flick who became a good friend. And so all of these guys were acting in this weird little cockroach-infected theater. Was it in rap? What place were you? It was in the Terrain Hotel, which no longer exists. They finally tore it down. And it was repertory, yeah. And they would make up their mind the last week. You want to stay and play a horror? Or do you want to be an angel this week? It was always something different. And you had a week to do these little one-act plays. I didn't realize. So when you went to do The Great Santini, you had already worked with Bobby Duvall.

21:43Oh, yeah. Well, no, I hadn't worked with Bobby. I observed Bobby. Dustin and Bobby and Paul Benedict, all these actors were doing Waiting for Goodo and The Cocktail Party. I was there really to observe. I didn't work with them. And so you finished up there and where did you do this? My first role off-Broadway was I was hired because I could speak German. And of all the girls that auditioned, they told me I was the only skinny girl who spoke German because I was supposed to be starving in the Second World War. So I got it by default. Everybody else were Brunhilders, I guess, who walked in. And then soon after that came, you know, I met Daddy and I went to audition for him.

22:30And he was hurling all these witticisms from the theater while I was trying to work up my emotion. I thought, who is this jerky guy? I'm supposed to cry. And he was just so darn funny. He was always. And then that kind of was it. And then you got the lead in Butterflies Are Free. Yeah. And what was that like, your first? I actually didn't want to do it. You know, again, I thought I was such a very serious actress. and I read 17 pages and I said to Bruce, will you read this? I don't know. It seems awfully fluffy to me. And he said, yeah, well, go up and meet the director. And I should have really done more of this.

23:15I said, I don't know that this is right for me. Whenever I did that, I always was sought after. So the director, Milton Kassellis, another Greek, he said, you've got to do this. You've got to do this. Cure DeLay and Eileen Heckert. So I said, well, I needed the work. So I did it, and I was astonished that it was a big hit. I was sure it wouldn't be. And what was that like to be kind of the belle of Broadway when you were 26? I wish I had enjoyed it more. I sort of felt I didn't. I hate to say it because it sounds sort of, but I assure you it's true. I felt I didn't deserve it. I felt I hadn't done enough.

23:57you know I had just come out of a repertory and off-Broadway just sort of thought why am I doing this and actually Eileen Heckert didn't want me after I won the Tony she didn't want my name above the title because she said she hadn't deserved it that's the old way really that's not casting dispersions on Eileen as much as that was really the thought back then Do you remember that night when you won the Tony? I wasn't thrilled. Isn't that awful? No, just it is what it is. Why? The opening night was the night the daddy asked my dad if he could marry me, and my mom wasn't thrilled about it. She thought he was stealing my thunder.

24:45I don't think that way. To me, it was so strange. Stealing my thunder. It wasn't all that heavy. I don't know why. I guess it's that Lutheran hair shirt thing. Right. It's pretty, it gets deep, that psychology. Well, you enjoyed your night, didn't you? Except for me, who was sort of a sourpuss. It was a strange night. I mean, I think it's interesting that we both won these awards when we were 26. 26, that's right. That's pretty, it's a strange parallel. Right. I found it really overwhelming. Yeah, but you had, until then, you'd won everything. SAG, Screen Actors Guild. But it's really, at the end of the day, all about.

25:32Well, you know what? With you, it came so easily to you. I was always astonished. Acting? Yes. As I talked about how you were so musical at such a young age. And you just, it was so deep within you. And I always thought, she doesn't have to struggle. You always got it. You knew the character, the accent, the core of the person. I mean, I was just astonished. And people, I had some women who actually said to me, are you jealous of your daughter? And to me, it was the most extraordinary. She was born of me. Why would I not be? How could I be jealous of her? I was so incredibly... And I got it all from you.

26:20I don't... Absolutely. Daddy was very creative in his own right. He couldn't carry a tune, though. No, he definitely couldn't. But it was different. You know, I mean, you talked about that thing that I said to Katie Couric, but it's so true. When I was little and always in Williamstown and watching you rehearse plays, and not only were you so powerful, but you seemed so on fire. You were just so impassioned and free. And you really showed me what the art of acting was. Oh, sweetie. It makes me sad to think that I didn't have any of that in my life. I mean, as a person. I don't think I did. I don't think that's true.

27:09Which is also a reason I chose your dad, because he was the one who was. I just think you always felt far more comfortable on stage than you did off stage. That's true. Absolutely true. And I think it's true of so many actors. I heard an interview with Maggie Smith years ago who said she felt that she was alive when she was working and didn't know what to do with herself when she wasn't. Right. Which I thought was astonishing. And so you had this beautiful, successful career and then you got married. And it was all downhill. Now, I really wanted to quit and raise children, but I didn't realize that I had enough cuckoo-ness inside that I had to have an outlet for it.

28:00You can't just sort of, at least I couldn't just shut off that switch and I was not a good mother, I realized. Why do you say that? Unless I could have an outlet. Well, there was that creative part that I couldn't deny, that I was trying to find that fire in that life. And I felt that I did at times with you all, but I also would run away, wouldn't I? Which I have tremendous guilt about. Why? Because, well, I think all working mothers, whether you're an actor or not, if you're drawn back to your work, you feel guilty. You feel you should be there 24 hours. But I couldn't function as a good mother.

28:38unless I had that outlet. And I feel I really did damage to you guys at times when I really had to escape. I felt that I had failed. Failed how? By not being present all the time, as I found I learned a lot from you, too late, unfortunately. But to be present, to be completely present, and I would sit there with you all and play, and then I'd say, I think I'm boring them. I've got to find something more enriching. I'm not enough. You know, I always had that stupidity. Why do you think that so many women have this imprint that they're not enough? Do you think it's generational or do you think that everybody, even in your generation, has it?

29:28Because you're all so much more evolved than we were. I mean, you have so much more information. You've gone to therapy. you know my mother said you were not going you don't go to therapy we come from a strong stock which i always thought was the most bizarre thing to say especially because she was like bipolar no i don't know who knows but you you sought it you knew that you needed to have that and look how you've look how you never stopped you have more curiosity than anyone i've ever known. And your dad had that too. Your love of art. We were told you could be a great art historian, a lawyer.

30:08Your brain was so much like dad's, thank God. But your curiosity and your never-ending searching, look where you are now. You mogul. Oh, please. You're always on the search for... I have like bags under my eyes and BO and... I'm exhausted. You do not when you work out in great shape, but you never stop searching. And that to me is your greatest. That's true. I am a searcher. Yes. I don't know. I wonder about that. I think my generation still very much carries that imprint. A lot of us do that we're not enough. Why is that? I think it's just transgenerational. I think it's just something that happened at some point.

30:58When you were with the children all the time, as you were early on, did you feel that as now that you were doing film and working? No, I felt that more in the pie chart of my life and the romantic slice. I always looked for confirmation that I wasn't enough through the boyfriend that I had. You always were able to have rich relationships. Some of them didn't work out. Yeah, but some of them were with very damaged men. When I had Apple, my experience of myself was completely transformed. Yes. And I felt like... You were so in love with her. I was so in love with her. I still am. I know. Then when you had Mosey, you went through the difficulty of...