Playing outside the Rule Book

0:00Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

0:30Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

1:03I've been in and out a lot lately for work, press and photo shoots, the usual whirlwind. And I was just thinking about how much I love settling into a real home when I'm on the road. There's something special about staying in a space that feels lived in and welcoming. It makes the experience feel more connected to the place. When I book a stay on Airbnb, I can make simple home cooked meals, have a few friends over and ease into a rhythm that feels more grounded than being in a hotel. And it's such a simple, practical idea for anyone heading out of town. You can host your home on Airbnb while you're away.

1:43Your place would be sitting empty anyway, and hosting can bring in a little extra money to put toward future travel. If you're traveling this season, consider hosting your home on Airbnb and let your space work for you. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host.

2:29people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves and that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you. And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world.

3:11Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. Today's guest is author, interior designer, and my friend, Athena Calderon. You may know Athena as the internet's go-to resource for hosting and entertaining tips, where she shares her delicious recipes and sage advice on turning a house into a haven. Over the years, it's been such a pleasure to watch her vision come alive. I was so excited to talk to her today about how it all began, her journey through real estate, and how she turned her Brooklyn townhouse into her greatest canvas as an artist and designer.

3:57In our chat, we talked about taking risks, doing what feels right, listening to ourselves, and how no matter how much success you may feel, there is still often a battle with imposter syndrome. We talked about the journey of her brand, the early Tumblr days of her lifestyle website, Icewoon, and why transparency is crucial to her work and the industry that she finds herself in. And of course, Athena gave us her best tips for infusing more feeling into our homes. Okay, let's get to my conversation with Athena Calderon. I'm so excited to have you on this pod specifically because something that was really important to me when I decided to do the podcast is that I really wanted to share a lot of my friends' stories because I feel that my friends are my guiding principles.

4:49They're the backbone of how I make decisions. They're my greatest inspirations. I feel like even before you were this, you know, kind of idol in this interior design community, I feel like I would text you or ask you this question. I even remember I soon on Tumblr, which truly feels like a million trillion years ago. And so that's how it started. One thing I was writing about in my new book was this idea of, you know, when I was pregnant with Bayou, somebody, I was talking to this kind of spiritual woman and she said that her birth would be my rebirth. And it was really interesting because I'd of course always considered the concept of reincarnation, this idea that we are, you know, you meet people and you're like, oh, we must've known each other in a past something, or this kind of renewed, reoccurring energy where people find each other or you feel certain things.

5:47But I never really thought about having multiple rebirths. And I never considered that concept reoccurring, you know, I, I've, you know, we all know the, like, whether it's midlife crisis, what people want to call it, or this idea of, you know, being a late bloomer. I've heard my friends call themselves that, or, you know, getting a second wind or having a second act. But the idea of rebirth was so profound to me because I've witnessed that in myself and in so many of my friends and especially you. And I feel like I remember when you closed on your house in Brooklyn that you've now famously just sold and congratulations on your New York times article.

6:32It was amazing. Thank you. And I remember feeling like when it was happening, talking to you and it was like talking to someone who was pregnant with their first child or something. And you're like, I'm really freaked out. It's a lot. I'm not sure how it's going to go. And I want to talk about the many things that I think have kind of defined a rebirth or ignited a rebirth for you. But I want to start with the Brooklyn townhouse. I want to back up for one moment and just say, I'm honored to have this conversation with you. It's incredible to like speak face to face with a friend, of course, about this rebirth.

7:05And I love this idea of reframing, whether it be kind of a struggle or a shift or a change or a crisis or whatever it might be as a rebirth. Like that's genius. Like right there, that's genius. Cause I think I'm going through a rebirth right now yet again. So I really like this idea of framing it a little bit in a more positive light, but the Brooklyn townhouse. So I guess to back up a little bit even further, I feel like the home is kind of, it's my sweet spot. It's where I feel most myself. It's where I express myself. It's where I self-educate. It's where I have gone through many rebirths because I have, I found myself as a young mom at home more so than most people that were in their twenties.

7:55And I really found the safe haven for me to explore myself. So home has always been really important for both the culinary side and the design side of my work and my world and my creativity. And it wasn't even work. It was really just self-expression for so long. And the Brooklyn townhouse was probably like the sixth or seventh home that I had designed. And along the way, each of the homes prior were, you know, a new canvas for me. But this was my greatest and largest and most consuming, but also most challenging, but also most inspiring campus for me to explore. The reason I, because I remember your other homes too.

8:37And the. You blew my mind, actually, when we spoke just a few months ago that you like remember the Brooklyn penthouse that I lived in that like nobody really knew about. And that, yeah. I remember that. I remember when you were moving. And I think, you know, something I read, the reason I really call out the Brooklyn townhouse is because A, it was such a big gamble for you. And the reason I'm really so happy to talk is because I think this is an artist talking about her canvas, really betting on yourself and relying on your own grit and really creating what you believe to be and turns out to be your masterpiece.

9:21But you're also, for me, I feel that you're a teacher. Your greatest purpose and calling is to teach. And I remember, it's so funny, I have the most vivid memory of talking to you about this, even before you kind of fully went on the journey of really making sure you had all of this transparency with how you spoke about what you did or what was the hack or what was the painkiller. Because in your industry, it can be incredibly snobby and rude. You kind of feel like pretty woman in the scene where they won't help you in the shop. you know yeah yeah yeah and so I think for you what I really love about you is that you are a when you sit down at the dinner party the nicest person in the room and you really transferred that to the online space where you're like first of all you're going to feel welcome and you're going to feel like no matter what budget you're doing it in like the aesthetic is attainable so whether you're getting the exact paint I used or the the version that is like in a completely different, you know, price zone, but it's going to be do the trick.

10:22You really offer that to people. And I really love that. I mean, thank you. It means the world to me that we're, we're going down this path and that you see me and you see that I really do like to share and open up my creative process. I think that like part of the reason that I do that, I get so much joy from the sharing of my creative journey is because I've always felt a little, a little bit like I have imposter syndrome, a little bit like I'm not doing it the right way, a little bit like I'm always so curious how other people are navigating their creativity. So I've always been this like voraciously curious person.

11:03I always want to understand if I'm sitting with a music producer, I'm like, oh wait, what came first, the melody or the harmony or the lyrics? Like I love to like dissect and understand the creative process because I was trying to find my space within my own creativity and I was having a hard time finding it. So I was constantly asking and curious and seeking and I'm still that way today. I'm still always wanting to learn more, know more, grow more, expand more, ask more questions and then internalize it and push it back out into the world. So I think that there's a part of me that's always so curious and maybe that stems from insecurity, but maybe it's just curiosity.

11:43Like, I don't know what it is, but it is something that is like so deeply rooted within me that I just like, I want to know more and I light up when I know more. And it could also come from like, not feeling like I'm educated enough or that I, you know, have a degree in interior design. And I think that like, there's just a part of me that like, when I find that design magic and that joy within my own journey, I want to sing it to the world and help them access whatever they are trying to find and couldn't find. It's funny because I'm at this point of inflection right now with my business and people keep asking me like, okay, Athena, you have all these advisors telling you like where you should go and what you should do next.

12:25Like what, what is it exactly that you love? And when I really dig deep, it is the sharing. It's the creating. It really is like creating a beautiful space, creating a beautiful meal, setting a beautiful table. That brings me an unbelievable amount of joy, like the creation of it. But it's also the distilling of like, because a lot of interior designers, they can't really describe their process. You know what I mean? And they don't want to. And I get that. It's, you know, I think around works of beauty, and I don't know if this is because it maybe was necessary in order to value beauty, but there has always been this kind of mystery around it.

13:08And it's really interesting for you to be able to maintain the value of what you work on and do and still and kind of dissolve the mystery and say like the mystery is actually in how you live in this space, not how you created this space. You know, our lives get to be the mystery. yeah and also nobody's going if I share with you exactly my process of how I make a meal or design a room if I give you every little detail of like why you know these three pieces work in a vignette together like nobody's going to do it exactly the same way so like I don't like to hoard information I think that like it just feels icky like I want to share but you know when I wrote when I wrote my second book, Live Beautiful, I remember a part of like the concept of the book because like my publisher wanted like a how-to book.

14:03I wanted a coffee table book. And I was like, well, how can I smash those two things together? Like I will capture these like exceptionally beautiful, maybe to some people unattainable homes. But what I will do is after I sit with the photography and have it all pinned up on the wall, I'll just sit there and I'll look at that photo and be like, what's working here, even if it's not a design, I did like, I love to kind of like dive in and, and figure out like the puzzle, the alchemy, the design language of what's working, and then share it and distill it into like, so then somebody else can be like, Oh, I don't have those exact things.

14:40I can't afford those exact things. But now I understand the principles at play of how I can perhaps create something similar. And that to me is so incredible. Like that is just like making beautiful design accessible to everyone. We all deserve to love our home and not everybody does have the opportunity to love their home. And it's like, there's even just like the teeniest little bit of joy that could be found in somebody, you know, restyling their shelves or creating a meal or, you know, even getting takeout, but like displaying it in a beautiful way that can like bring them joy in their home.

15:21Like, I don't know, home, home just means so much to me. And, you know, and going back to what you were saying, just like about that, the Brooklyn house and like the grit that took me there, you know, our first, not to like go into a real estate like tangent or anything, but like our first Brooklyn home that we ever bought, like we couldn't afford it. We like borrowed money from like a bunch of different friends to like make it happen. I think that being like gritty and being resourceful is like a little bit the way like Victor and I have built our homes and our lives. And just like we did bet on ourselves and we poured everything into that house.

15:58And mind you, I was writing my cookbook at the time. So I was like designing that house. We were really stretched quite thin, very thin financially, writing a book, designing a house, like knowing the house was going to be published and Architectural Digest was like this added pressure that like, it fueled me in an amazing way. But I also use that home to like, continue to self-educate and learn and grow. And like, I wasn't able to, it's funny because I wasn't able to, yeah, host, but I wasn't able to share the home because it was going to be published. So the whole way I started, I have this series on my Instagram called I Swoon Unplugged.

16:35And it really was this series because my cookbook came out and so many people, I felt like thought that maybe a lot of the recipes because they were photographed so beautifully, it won a James Beard award for photography. Like it was definitely like the most beautiful photography, but like sometimes when things feel too elevated and too precious and too beautiful, it cannot give people access to it. Right. So I was in this beautiful kitchen in my new townhouse that I was so proud to have designed. It was like my masterpiece, but I wasn't allowed to show any of it. So I was like, huh, okay, well, I just had this cookbook came out.

17:11I can tell people are feeling intimidated by the recipes. Like I'm just going to take my phone really low fi stick it on the shelf. Like so many people are like, I don't understand like who's shooting this for you. What, you know, pie potter. I definitely was one of the people that were like, who's doing this for you? This is amazing. It was literally just me and my iPhone, me getting like a little boozy as I'm actually like cooking my own recipes. Like nothing was like thought out. Nothing was like prescribed. My son would like walk through the door home from school, like chit chat with me, would, you know, see me drinking my wine, but like you would just see my hands and I would talk through the recipe I was making.

17:51And like the amount of people that would be like, I didn't know how to crush garlic the right way. I didn't know how to cut an onion the right way. Like sometimes like, I just want to like break down the barriers and pull back the curtain of like how simple, certain beautiful and delicious things can actually be. Because even I get overwhelmed sometimes like, Oh my God, it's been a long day. I haven't gone to the market yet. Let me just order in. But like, there are certain recipes that like, you need five things. You just need one pan and they're delicious and like sustaining your family and gathering around the table.

18:28Like it's just a beautiful meal and it can just change your family dynamic. That to me, that like really back to basics, like just showing people and teaching and distilling like how to create the recipes in my book was something that it was like the first moment in that house that really let me lean into that. Like to your point, like education or teacherly way. And then the second phase of that was during COVID when like, it was just intuitively, it was like, oh, people are just like sitting at home and they cannot be outdoors. And like, let me just like go through a series where I take all the elements in my home that I already own, the things that have a soul, the things that speak to me, that things that trigger memories of whether it's my family or travel, let me just pull them all and just create these videos and talk through like why I'm pairing certain things together and why certain vignettes work together and why it's always better to like pair things in threes and why I want to create verticality on one shelf but keep everything kind of like low and sculptural on another and it just like people had so much appreciation for it and so that was like another way that I began to kind of like lean into this distilling my creative process.

19:43Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

20:14Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis, or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

20:45So something that really stuck out to me as you were speaking is you have obviously taken so many risks, you know, even in how you bought real estate or this idea of betting on yourself, how do you assess the risk of saying like, this is what I know to be enough. And so you think about real estate, is there like a mentality that you can share? Do you have a mantra around risk? What would be your kind of most practical mental tips for taking the risk for buying the house, doing the thing, trying the new business? Yeah, well, I'll say this. Anytime I take a risk, whether it's buying a new home or whether it's, you know, I'll just say like when I first started doing those videos, those eyes and unplugged videos, I'd never really like spoken to camera before.

21:35And like, to me, that's a risk to like, you know, at first I was really nervous. about it. But like, I guess like, whether it's real estate or whether it's just something that you've never done before that you're really scared to do, I will say that I'm always scared whenever I buy a new piece of real estate or whenever I'm trying something new or leaning into the writing a cookbook. I'd never done that before. Like you're always going to be scared. You're always going to have that voice. Sometimes it's going to convince you that you're not good enough or it's not the right choice. Or, you know, is there something better out there for me to buy.

22:06And I don't exactly know what it is about me that like allows me to push through it. But I think that there's like, there's something that if you do the work, if you are prepared, if you research the neighborhood for the real estate, you know, like if you are voraciously like just diving into the areas that you can invest in, like, is there room for growth? Is there some value that you can add. Like if you do the work there, or if you do the work in preparing, you know, for speaking on camera or doing something new in your business, like you're always going to be scared. If you're not scared, like you're not alive.

22:47So I think that like, you have to take a leap of faith because like remaining complacent is something that I know I never want to be in. Like I always want to expand. I always want to grow. I always want to learn. I'm also the person, like, if I'm like, if I upset a friend or my husband or my child, like, I want them to like, tell me, like, make me better. Like, I think that like, if you have this way about you of just like, knowing that you're going to have to sit in the uncomfortable, like, feelings of taking that risk, it's better than not taking that risk at all. and I think I set goals sometimes like yearly that might seem unrealistic but I just kind of plow through the uncertainty and the fears but to get like a little bit more practical when it has to do with like real estate I think that you know if you can't afford to do the renovation but you are like in your gut love a space or home sit in it unrenovated for a while throw some white paint And like, like I am such a person of patience as far as like, if you can't afford to do what you really want to do, but you can like start to like build the crumbs that will get that cake fully baked, like take the crumb and like just sit on that crumb for a little while until you can, you know, get to that next step, get closer.

24:17Even when I was designing the Brooklyn townhouse, like there was so much that like sat undone for a really long time because I hadn't found the inspiration or I couldn't afford the light fixture or, you know, like everything doesn't have to be done all at once and perfect all at once. So like allow yourself the journey, like, because if you did it all at once and it was perfect immediately, like you probably wouldn't enjoy the process as much. And it's like funny that I'm so curious about other people's process, but in a way I also allow myself to get uncomfortable and gritty in my own process.

24:51And I think that that makes you appreciate it that much more. So like if you can't afford the renovation or maybe you can only afford an inkling of the renovation, like it's okay. I feel like that is such incredible advice, especially in this era of like the internet. Cause I think that even in home spaces or something else, it's not, it's kind of like anyone's success is everyone thinks it's like overnight success. And I think that especially with home stuff, it's like, we bought it. And then I think even in these kind of this video universe we live in of like month three in our house. And it looks like everything comes together at the pace of like a reality show.

25:31Do you feel that the, cause, cause I swoon has undergone a massive transformation over the years also. I mean, it's gone from a Tumblr into, I'd say kind of this expression of how to, to now the how to plus the shop, which I love and bought a cutting board on the other day. And it's really cool to buy things from you because when I bought it, the person who made it like sent me a note with it. And I was like, I feel like only someone that Athena would recommend would like notice that it was you buying it. And then they're just like, I really like your poetry or something. And I was like, that is so, that's so sweet.

26:10But I feel that you, you not only curate items that are obviously very beautiful, but they are usually so thoughtfully and locally sourced and supporting these young businesses or female entrepreneurs in a way where it really does feel like that kind of old school thoughtful mom and pop-ness in your customer experience, which, you know, while on the one hand with Amazon world of like, everything comes the next day, we've gotten kind of spoiled, but there is something to like the sweetness of waiting. And then it comes to you and it comes with a note and it comes with how to kind of maintain it and clean it.

26:45And, and all of these things that I think we kind of lose in this, in our commerce, getting a little soulless in its speed. And so do you feel the site has kind of evolved as you've evolved? Do you think you pulled it along? Did it grow and pull you along? You know, was it all of a sudden like, oh, so many people want to buy stuff. And so that's like, this demand is coming and I'm going to like kind of rise to the occasion of the demand. Did you have a vision for it and then feed the vision onto this? I mean, I'll say that not only have my homes been my greatest teacher, but I constantly say that Ice Swoon has been my greatest teacher because it was like, it was born out of like, you know, I was in like a kind of, I won't say depressed, but I was in a kind of like diminished place of like, who am I?

27:34What am I meant to offer this world? I have this beautiful family, this beautiful home, this beautiful husband, but like, I didn't, I hadn't tapped into like what I was meant to offer the world yet as a creative. And I soon became this place that I was able to explore myself in the home and share. And it has refined my eye, has taught me how to be a designer, it has taught me how to be a writer, it has taught me how to be a stylist. And I never knew that it was going to turn into like an e-commerce platform and a marketplace. But I do know that curation is something that I love. Like I love the joy of finding beautiful makers and, you know, I love community.

28:14I mean, I assume offered me first and foremost, before a career community, connectivity, a place for me to like find like-minded people alongside myself. And that's really when it really grew into what it is today. It's like, because I found my people. I'll never forget, Like I have a manager now. And she had said to me, like, what is it that you love the most about when I was going through another rebirth where I was like questioning all of it. And I remember I had just come home from creating and cooking with one of my favorite chefs, Ignacio Matos. He had a cookbook coming out and I went into his restaurant, Estella, and we cooked together and I got to ask him questions.