Quieting Your Mental Chatter (with Moments of Space cofounder Kim Little)

0:02When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world.

0:58Here we go. Hi, it's Kiki Koroshetz, VP of Content at Goop. Before we get to today's episode, I wanted to fill you in on something we've been working on. Last November, we hosted our 10th In Goop Health Wellness Summit. After all these years, it still feels a little surreal to experience the energy and spirit of what we do at Goop all in one place. We're really looking forward to our next summit, which is coming up on April 20th in Carlsbad, California. Gwyneth will be hosting two sessions along with a few expert teachers. If you want to join us there, and we would love to have you, Tickets are available at goop.com slash ingoophealth.

1:39And if you're curious about the kinds of conversations that we have at ingoophealth, well, you're in the right place. Today, we're sharing a conversation from our last summit. It's with Kim Little, co-founder of Moments of Space. There is a growing cohort of us at Goop who love this new meditation app and their transformative eyes open approach. GP actually told us all about it and how she uses it during her walks and throughout the day. In fact, she has found it so beneficial that she just came on as a co-owner and community director at Moments of Space. In this conversation with Kim, GP and him talk about why an eyes-open meditation practice can help people find deep connection without having to tune out the world.

2:20And at the end, Kim guides us through a live meditation. So if you're not familiar with the practice, you'll get to learn it today. Let's get to the conversation with Gwyneth and Kim Little.

2:33I'm very excited to introduce Kim Little. He's from Moments of Space, which is an amazing new meditation app that I love. So, Kim, you have a very interesting background. You're a software developer. You are a lifelong meditator, and you're also a practicing Buddhist. and you've said that you have gone on many many retreats in your life and kind of had these deep profound experiences where you've kind of cut off from the world and have been very impactful for you personally but then subsequently found it almost impossible to bring that back into your daily life so can you tell us just a little bit about your trajectory and what that light bulb moment was for you?

3:26Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up with two very Buddhist uncles learning about Buddhism from a young age, and I spent my life going on many different meditation retreats. And eventually, only about five or 10 years ago, did I find the meditation teachings and methods that power moments of space. While going on those retreats, I would have extraordinary experiences of a very stable meditative state in which basically everything made sense. There's like those moments where life makes complete sense. You feel like you've got all the answers and you're seeing everything. What is what? It's like, great, found it.

4:12Excellent. Come back into ordinary daily life. And can I just interject one second to ask you, like, what is that? What is happening in those moments in meditation where we feel that deep connectedness and wholeness? Well, that's quite a big subject. Okay. What we're really looking for is relief from our thoughts and our emotions, our negative thoughts and emotions. We're looking for a way to take a break from that. So in meditation, what we do is we try and connect to the backdrop of our minds, which is pure awareness and infinitely open space. And when we do that, it gives us massive relief from those thoughts and emotions.

5:02But that backdrop also has these innate qualities of balance, harmony, peace and contentment. and they actually start to liberate your baggage and start to dissolve it. And that is basically what's happening. Right, oh thank you. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. Okay, great. So I'm sorry to interrupt. So carry on, then your light bulb moment came. Well, yeah, as I said, I started going on retreats twice a year because I thought, okay, I've got to find a way to keep the continuity going. I would come home and meditate 40 minutes in the morning, 40 minutes at lunch, 40 minutes in the evening.

5:47Shortly, I would meditate two times a day, then one time a day, and then only 20 minutes in the morning. That's about where I am right now. And of course, the meditative state fades away. Yeah. Well, it doesn't really go easily with our modern culture. No, because we haven't got any time. Yeah. And we have so many inputs all day long, phone, work, kids, text, this, that. It seems that you have to have a tremendous amount of intention to actually sit down and meditate. And I have so many friends who say, I sit there and I can't do it. I can't let get my mind quiet. it? It's really difficult. I find it difficult and I love meditation.

6:37I think the thing to understand that's really interesting is when you're on a retreat, the main activity is mindfulness. So the meditative state follows. But in ordinary daily life, you sit down for 20 minutes in the morning if you're lucky and that fades by lunchtime. And that's because that 20 minutes of mindfulness is competing with 16 hours of unmindfulness. So it basically hasn't got a chance. It just hasn't got a chance at all. So what do we do? Do we have to go on retreats forever? That's not very easy. So I got thinking about the problem. And actually, when you look at ordinary daily life, there are all these activities we do every day where our mind is not required to be focused.

7:30Like when we're getting dressed and having a shower and going to work, going to the gym, commuting, walking, washing the dishes, and so on and so forth. So what if we could find a way to use all those unused pockets of time and turn them into meditation sessions? Then you could create a continuity of mindfulness throughout your day, and maybe mindfulness would have a chance to beat unmindfulness. And the way that you're attacking it is brilliant and I can't wait to talk about that more. I did want to also point out that you have a degree in theology. I do. So why did you decide to pursue that and then how did you land on a Tibetan Buddhist practice?

8:28it's not a very exciting answer I was going to go to Leeds University to study comparative religions I got an offer from Nottingham University for theology and my dad said you should go there because it's the better university spoken like a true dad which I regret I regretted actually. Oh really? Yeah. But for me they all point to the same thing so I just think the way it's described in Buddhism is the easiest to understand and get. Why? What are the sort of tenets of Tibetan Buddhism that you find so resonant? The basic idea is that we're lost from our true nature, and what's happened is we've become prisoners to our thoughts and our concepts.

9:25And we've become so evolved that now all we can experience is that. And we're trapped in a prison, and we can't get out. So the basic premise of Buddhism is we have to free ourselves and get back to our true nature, which is this backdrop, which is awareness and space. And that has all the things that we want, that has these innate qualities that ultimately will liberate us and fulfill us. So I think I'm slightly going off piste here, but I'm just curious. So, you know, we're living in a current time where we're seeing this incredible bifurcation. Is it because we've gotten into this space of our ego and this idea?

10:15Like, how have we all lost this backdrop where we are all one and have compassion for one another? And how have we gotten into this seemingly intractable polarity? All thought and concept is based on a duality. It's based on like a subject object. It's based on an up, down, left, right, right, wrong, black, white, me, you. And so as long as we're in thoughts and concepts, we get separated from the inherent oneness of life. Because at the true level and the enlightenment level, everything is much more of a oneness. but what our mind is doing is cutting reality up all the time into boxes and divisions and labels and that creates me and you uh enemy and friend right and wrong and it goes on and on and on now thoughts and concepts are great but we've become enslaved to them right and they dictate our life and they drive us mad.

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12:01If you're looking for a new workspace or planning your next off-site or meeting, schedule a tour today at convene.com. And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025 and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. So in the wellness space, meditation is really talked about in secular terms. You know, it's sort of like not attached to a certain framework or belief system. in your meditation in the in the Tibetan Buddhist like is it inextricably linked with God with with religion do you believe in God Kim I actually do that's because the book when when the Buddhists talk about the ultimate nature of reality which from the Tibetan Buddhist perspective of the Zogchen tradition is awareness, infinitely open space and oneness, when they talk about that, I immediately think, oh, but in Christianity, God is everywhere, is omnipotent, is omnipresent, is omniscient.

13:24And so when you get to the core of the Buddhist teachings, it feels like we're talking about the same thing. So I actually think that is God personally. there is a space that is hosting everything here that allows everything to be including all of us that same space is in your mind allowing all the thoughts to exist and the space is inseparable from this connection and this oneness and sorry I know I'm going really down a rabbit hole here No, this is great. This is what we do here.

14:02Connecting to that and staying connected to that is enlightenment from the Buddhist perspective. But teachers like Eckhart Tolle will actually call that God. So there are teachers that are having the courage to say that they're the same thing. Right. So that staying connected to that awareness is at the core of the app. moments of space. They've developed this amazing, I don't know, I feel like you maybe, I think you pioneered it. I've never heard of it before. But this incredible eyes open meditation. So if you're sitting in the back of a car or you're talking to someone really boring

14:45or you're getting your makeup done or whatever the case may be, you can go into meditation. I love the walking meditation on the app. There's a whole open-eyed walking meditation series that's beautiful. Will you tell me how you kind of, you sort of said the origin story, but how did you create the modality of meditating with eyes open? And what does it look like? Well, actually it's been taught in the Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen tradition for thousands of years. Okay, so you didn't make it up. I didn't make it up. Darn. Well, I thought I was sitting with the inventor of the... If I had made it up, I'd be worried.

15:34I'd be very worried. Why? Because I'm just a techie. I'm an ordinary person. How could I have possibly made eyes open meditation unless it was a gimmick? Well, someone had to make it up. Well, they did. They made it up thousands of years ago. But that tells you that it works, right? And the reason they've gone that route is two reasons. One, and you said it to me yourself once, life is lived with your eyes open. And two, meditation is no good if it's not with you any time, any place. Yes. So that was the first. And actually within this tradition, they believe that little and often throughout the day is much more powerful than one big meditation in the morning.

16:21Right. Because remember, you need continuity of mindfulness to defeat unmindfulness. But there's a second reason, which also gets a bit ephemeral. But I think we've gone there a bit. Yeah. Don't worry. You're safe here with these gals. so we all want relief from our thoughts and and and emotions and because the nature of this backdrop is awareness and infinitely open space they believe that by using eyes open meditation and practicing awareness of the visual space around you it's a shortcut to access inner mental space directly. It's like a hack, but they don't use that language. They use it like a, it's like a fast track.

17:15So you use awareness of outer visual space to connect to inner mental space directly. And when you then connect to that backdrop, not only do you get that relief, but the qualities of the backdrop start to dissolve your baggage. Wow. And so Eyes Open Meditation isn't just about any time, any place. It's actually more powerful. I believe, I really do believe, it is more powerful at transforming your crap. Sorry. Amazing. I want to get back to that, but I would love to ask you a little bit about, you know, you're also building a business. so how how does Tibetan Buddhism fit alongside like building a business I mean I personally think we should have many more for profit businesses that are actually doing something good in the world I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of I struggled with this for a long time well two people clapped so

18:25I have ultimately surrendered. It's very easy, and especially if you go to any Buddhist meditation center, it's always free, it's donations, you're not supposed to take money. And it's like, okay, well, how are we going to build a revolutionary meditation app? How are we going to bring eyes open at any time, any place, and work out and detect when you're walking and when you're commuting? How can I do that without tons of money, relatively speaking, right? Yeah, yeah. And people that want to be paid well. So I struggled with this, and ultimately I had to let it go and say, at the end of the day, money is energy, and a business needs energy.

19:08Yeah. And this is the reality we live in, whether we like it or not. Sure, it would be lovely not to charge money, but unless you've got a friend, you know, unless you know someone very special, then you're not going to get anywhere. And so these Buddhist teachings are often just, they're not being powered properly by great technology because of this problem. So they don't have a chance. So we are a for-profit business. We are exploring ideas like co-ownership and co-creation through blockchain technologies. It's very difficult because the laws make it very difficult to start to share ownership with your users.

19:47but we thought well hang on could we be a for profit and then share some value back and we're trying to do it but it's very challenging well I admire you for trying to and I think you're absolutely right that you know we do need to start to proliferate the world and the consciousness with these ideas and you know you have to make a living too you know you have to eat dinner as well But does the Buddhist, do any of the main themes, do they weave their way in through the business? I mean, I imagine in your office culture, it must be a very nice place to work. I started off very compassionate. And then you hired some millennials.

20:42And that went out the window. So I'm kidding. And very gentle. And we're a few years in now. And I had to ditch a lot of that. Because it's a startup. And it's high pressure. And it's challenges all day long. And it doesn't work to just allow anything to happen. We need people that are going to work hard and work well under pressure. So I have hired people. Oh, hi. to help with that but i have i've had to let go of a lot of these i was very like you can't charge money and we have to just be ultimate compassion and love and it's been and i had to let go and i've had to find a middle way so i think it would be amazing if you don't mind of taking us through an eyes open meditation would you guys like to learn it's very powerful it would be great to to close with that for five minutes or so if that's okay with you yep sure thing sure thing by the way i'm not a meditation teacher you are right now but but i have got a bit of a a bit of an idea of a couple of things we could do um so yeah let's explore some eyes open meditation.

22:07I have three different methods to show you. It's a little bit informal and I'm hoping that in one or other of the methods you might get a glimpse. But don't worry because different techniques suit different people. So don't worry if you don't get a glimpse in all three. What are we trying to glimpse? The most accessible word is presence, but let's be a bit more specific. Awareness, space. So present moment awareness, mental space, and also watching your mind when it's still or there's a gap in thought. Those are the kind of things we're looking for. But don't worry too much. Don't get too hung up on that.

22:57So, method one.

23:02I would recommend that you just look straight ahead, slightly raised, at nothing in particular. So leave your gaze soft and open. If that's too difficult, pick a spot on the wall. I can see a spot on the window. But up there, maybe looking at that, something where there isn't anything. So gaze open or choose a visual spot. And when you do that, you generally get this sense of space in your periphery, which I always think is quite nice. So we're going to start by trying to listen to the loudest sound in this room.

23:59And now try to listen to the softest, quietest sound in this room.

24:19now there isn't any silence in this room yet at the moment but see if you can listen to the space between sounds or any sense of silence

24:38loudest sounds,

24:50softest sound,

24:58Any space between sounds?

25:10Okay, let that go. Second method.

25:24which we call open awareness in our app. So again, keep your gaze soft, looking forward and open, looking at nothing in particular, or if that's difficult, a visual spot.

25:51Now imagine for a second there is no past and imagine that there is no future

26:06If there was no past there would be no memories and if there was no future there would be nothing to do, plan for or achieve.

26:23Your mind would have to relax into the present moment.

26:33So try and let go of past and future and be here now in this moment.