Sh*t We Say in the (Mom) Group Chat

27:43But, yeah, he's. There's always an interesting, I don't know, it's always so interesting to me, like, what comes out of the challenging situations. Like, you, Andrew is your stepson technically, right? He's all mine. He's all yours. But like came from you passed through a really difficult period when you were first together with his dad. Yeah. So my husband was married at 30 and his wife died of cancer at 32 and he had a baby. And that baby is one of my favorite men on the planet Earth. That baby is a 32-year-old magnificent man. But when I showed up, everyone kind of felt sorry for the kid who lost his mom.

28:30So they went. So if he would be, my husband would say when he would like grab a toy in the preschool, when every parent would say, oh, give it back, he'd say, oh, let him have it. And so there's a parenting to the fragility or there's a parenting to the strength. And for him, I was very clear-sighted when I showed up that I'm going to love this kid to my biggest capacity to love. And I'm also going to really parent to the strength and not do this coddling to the weakness. And I had an experience when he graduated college and he was in New York and I went to meet him for dinner. And I remember like he called my Uber.

29:10He opened the door. He was helping me in the snow. I was wearing heels and I was like, had dinner with him. And I was like, wait, I'm having dinner with my favorite human if it's my kid. Like I was like, we have come so far. But it was really, and my husband saw where the growth needed. And I learned a lot from my husband, who was so gentle and kind and principled. And we really, we had a very bumpy beginning. You know, actually, my original book, Persian Parent, was called Hate Me Now, Thank Me Later. I used to say, he'd be, I'd say, clear the plate. He goes, I don't do dishes. You do now. Hate me now, thank me later.

29:47Like, you just, and it's just. You do now. And you know what? I was very conscious of not using the word step. I was like, he'd say, oh, I'm going to have a stepchild. I was like, there is no half. We're all whole here. I know. We're all whole. I don't like that word. I don't either. We need a new. It's separating. I know. It's just too, I'm so into words these days. It's too, it makes you feel left out. And in this lifetime, you are three brothers and they're crazy good friends. And I'm with you, Dawn. I'm like, your siblings are your best friend. Yeah. And that PR campaign might. From birth.

30:22It was working. They traveled together. They go out to dinner. They double date together. I mean, it's just freaking adorable. Speaking of step parents, because by the way, I loved that podcast. Oh, thanks. Between you and Brad. It really moved me and it was incredible. And I think it probably helped a lot of people. You know, the reason why I think I wanted to talk about it is because it's a subject that a lot of people. there's not a lot of resource out there for like what other people go through, how to do it, what it's like. And I, I don't really know how to do it. Like I'm still learning, but I, I learn all the time, but I did think it was, you know, I wish that I had been able to tune into a podcast like that back in the day when I was trying to figure it out.

31:09And, And I agree. I think it's funny. It's like there's this mythology, even around the word, you know? Yeah, I don't like the word. It carries this negative connotation. What has a worse connotation than stepmother, you know? It's like it makes you feel like you're in a Disney movie. Yeah, right. You know, like so. Versus bonus mom. I know. I don't like that either, though. I don't know. I don't know. I like how you said it. You said, he's just my kid. I just remember when he was using that language, I just was very conscious not to use that language. And it takes down the wall. It takes down that sense of other.

31:50And I think when you get divorced, there's so many charged feelings and there's so much abandonment and loss. And I think to add to it with this kind of labeling of separateness, it just doesn't work. So what do you call them in your family? I don't know. I mean, I say, like, the kids, like, because also I don't want to step on Brad's ex-wife's toes, their mother's toes. Like, you know what I mean? It's just, like, I feel like it's just a fraught scenario. It's, like, if I'm saying they're my kids, then I don't want to, you know what I mean? Exclude anybody. Yeah. So I usually just say, you know, all our kids, we have four.

32:31It's easier when I say, like, we have four together. Right. But I feel so close to my stepkids, and I love them so much. And it also, like, you know, but that was my point, that through those difficult relationships with kids, like maybe your client who said, like, my kid bugs me. I think there's so much richness in mining. Why? Heat is history. Why? Heat is history. Because when you're that triggered, it isn't about your kid. Right. And I feel so strongly that when somebody comes in and they're so charged up about something that their kid is doing, the answer is heat. Inside itself. It's history.

33:15You know, take a look back. What is this reminding you of? What is unresolved in yourself? Work on it. Get you neutral and then be an adult. I love that reference that you made about stepping in and saying, wait, I have to always be an adult. You can apologize and you can make mistakes. But for the most part, if that's coming up in you, go take care of yourself and then come back into the room and show up as an adult. That really helps me. Like, I'm not in my reactive mode because we all can be in to pretend like we're not. Like, that's just silly. And so you had all of these big feelings, you know, when you were raising these four children together.

33:52But I loved you made some reference. Like, I had to, like, just be my adult, you know, instead of, you know, looking the other way or having another conversation. And I thought, that's so beautiful. I learned so much from it. And I think whoever, who said at the beginning, like how much they learn, they have learned from being a parent, like about themselves, about all you did. You learn so much. You have to be open. You learn so much about yourself. And I also think honoring, too, what I loved about the group of us all coming together, there's not a mom guide or a dad guide, you know. There's no manual.

34:29And I think I loved the rawness of our conversations of being like, what the fuck do I do? Because she snuck out of the house again. I know she's not telling. Just to have a place as a human being to unload all these big feelings. And then you're not being judged because it's us, right? And then you're like, well, how do you navigate this? And I think it's just constant dialogue and constant conversations. And I think trust is such a big word. I think so many people come at their kids with a lack of trust. Like, I'm going to give you a breathalyzer when you get home. versus a great head. I do threaten that all the time.

35:01Did you? Really? I was like, you have a great head on your shoulders. I trust you to make great choices. You've got this. And the energy is, oh, my parents believe in me. I believe in myself. That is so true. It's a different energy around it. I really – it goes along with the non-punishment. Teach them to trust themselves by saying, I trust you. I trust you. And I do. Don't you trust your kids? I do. I do. I didn't always back in the day. I do. I do now. I do.

35:38Who were you each before you were mothers? I think I was someone who was always missing a part of me. I was always who I am, but I knew I came into this world knowing I wanted to be a mom. I very much wanted from the day I was born six children I wanted a big family I wanted to manifest a really happy life I wanted a hectic crazy house so I think I was a person who was longing so for me when I had my children it really was a selfish act because I was fulfilling something for me and they really have well I always wanted to be a mom and I was really excited to find that person but I definitely put off finding that person because he none of the men that I dated were the right one and it was like when I saw Richard and met him I thought oh my goodness you're the guy that I want to do this with and I always had a career but I thought okay when I get married I'm going to raise my children and I think I think the hardest part about having children and I have three is that there's so much around you like well you're not just a mother Let's be more than that and the pressure of doing that.

36:56So I think before I – when I was – I had a career, I thought, oh, when I do – now I'm going to be a mother. And that sense of, wow, this isn't enough. I'm not enough. And in hindsight, I wish I didn't – I hadn't felt that way because just showing up for them would have been – would have been enough, you know. What about you? I agree with you, Dawn. I longed to be a mother, med school, schmed school. I was like, I wanted to be a mom. But I feel like when you asked that, I thought, I don't even know who I was before children anymore. They are my entire life. They are the people I love most in the world.

37:40Me too. They are my anchor. They're my identity. They're my loves. And I have so much more capacity to love because of them. I have so much more joy because of them. Everything is more colorful because of them. I was less evolved. They'll school you fast when you become a mother. They'll teach you. I know. What about you? It's funny. I had this crazy big free life before I had my kids. I was traveling and I was learning so much. I was living in different cities and filming and like banging A-listers. You know, and I sort of look back at that time and I had this incredible like sense of lightness and adventure and this untethered, you know, I would go from working in this country to working in that country.

38:49And I really loved that chapter of my life. And I felt unmoored. I felt like I didn't have real purpose. And I'll never forget my friend Drew said, she was talking about when she had her daughter. And we were talking about like that feeling and how it just shifts your orientation. And she said it so perfectly. She said, like she said to all of her first, when she was talking to her, she said, I was born the day you were born. Oh, that's beautiful. And it's sort of true. It's like - It changes you. It does change you. You birth into yourself, you know? Yes. And it's like, that's beautiful. You birth into yourself.

39:43That's how I was trying to say it. You said it beautifully. You birth into yourself. I think part of their DNA is left in you, actually. I agree. Right? Well, if they change, you could look on a brain skin. My children changed me completely. For sure they do. What's on the brain skin, doctor? You could, like, love on the brain. Like, you can see love on the brain. I mean, it actually changes your – why wouldn't you birth this person? They become you. I love, can you repeat that line? That was so good. I don't know what I said. I lost it. I lost it. It's angering. Yeah. It's angering. And I think that's what happens when, you know, I'm an empty nester.

40:21When they leave you. No, a free bird, as she's rephrasing. A free bird, let's reframe. By the way, it's horrible. I'm just going to say. Go ahead. I have to say, when you have that love that we all had of being mothers, and we were all very present and very in the room. And then they go. I was just, all my adult kids were with me a couple weeks ago. And when they left, I said to my husband, no, where are they going? Like you're going back to their lives. So I think when it becomes so anchoring, I do feel it is a little rudderless. When they come in, they come in with such a bang and your whole life is different.

40:58And when they leave, you're still a mother and you're always a mother and you're a mother forever. But that sense of being there every day. It just hurt when you just heard that. Sorry, sorry to give you bad news, Dawn. I'm not ready for that. Are you, do you, because you, your youngest has gone to, is the same grade as Moses and Brody, and who were all, the three of them all in school together. So we are free birds together at the same time for the first time. How are you, because it's sort of an oscillation, right? It's like some days, I don't know, for me anyway, some days I'm like, this is great.

41:31Like I can, I don't know, like not pick someone up from school and like go to a museum or like say yes to something. And then more of the days I'm like, like I don't, I think right now I'm having such a hard time with it right now. I don't know what it is. It's like this, is it spring? Is it, I don't know. But do you find that? Are you just always bummed or are there? No, I think it's, you know, you, the kitchen's clean in a way. You know, nothing to move. No hot pockets. Yeah, there's like you don't have to work around school schedules in any, you know, in the same way where we, you know. I think there's a, I don't want to say loneliness.

42:12It's a longing to be with someone you love. Yeah. And you love that person and you got just the privilege of being with them every day and then there. But, you know, it comes back adult children like my oldest son. I mean, it's strange. Like if I had a dilemma, he would be an interest. He'd probably be my first pick of a guy to ask. Or any of my sons, to be honest. They're people I would turn to for great. So it's a different, the relationship shifts. But I think people don't give enough air time. What is it that you miss the most? It's like sometimes I just feel like there's no air or no joy.

42:54Like, no, it feels like on a bad day and I have lots of good days where I'm like, I'm fine. And I'm so proud of them and they're doing their thing. And I love Brad so much and we're chilling. But like on the hard days, I feel like depressed. I have like a deep sadness and I feel like everything is really quiet. And I do think this is where the hormonal thing is not my friend. because already, you know, we're going through this incredible change, this like momentous physiological change that's like representative of your lack of reproductive viability. And then the children are, and you know, there's like obviously a real like endocrine piece of this.

43:45And, and by the way, like anxiety, menopause anxiety, and all this terrible stuff or perimenopause or whatever the fuck I'm dealing with. And I think it compounds the bad days quite a lot. Or maybe they're tied together. Or maybe I dip because of hormones and then I feel – but I just feel it's like the joy goes out. I think that's so honest. And for 18 years, you have your kind of guard up in a beautiful way of keeping this safe space for them. And they come in, they come out, they're friends, the drama, the this. It keeps you, as much as in the moment, you're like, could you get the fuck out of my bedroom?

44:21I need to go to bed. Yeah, but there is, it's just even the sounds. And it's just the quiet. I mean, I have five. And it makes your, like, it makes light, you hear the door and you light up, right? It's like your adrenaline goes and your endorphins go. And Brad said it so interestingly. He said that I'm going to, like, butcher it. But his observation was something like, I have been so, my nervous system has been so tethered to them, like, and what they're doing and they're, I'm sort of ruining it. He said it much better. But it's so I think the upside is your nervous system starts to downregulate, right?

45:02Because it's like when they're little and someone you hear the door or the phone or this or that, you're like, you know, or the stampeding boys come into the house. And, you know, like it's a lot of energy. It's a lot of adrenaline. And then it's quiet. And I also think there's something to honoring too with bigger families or when you have more than one, you sort of feel that loss with each one that goes. So I keep saying, you know, to you, you've already had Tammy, you've had one daughter leave. But when the second one goes, it doesn't get any easier and it's like a loss in another way. Like each child, each young adult that leaves the house, like you and Apple went, you feel one thing.

45:47And when Moses goes, you feel it. You know, for me, it's like having three of them, four of them now out of the house. It's like you kind of go through it each time. It's like a death. It's like a grief. I don't know. Well, you still have a 13-year-old at home. I'm like, of course I do. And he's awesome. But I have four adults who are like not home anymore that every day I'm like, can you please come home? But, you know, it's really, I love how you said that. So because you kind of, the joy goes with each one. Yeah. It does. But with deep love comes loss. I mean, they're paired. Of course. You can't love someone that deeply and then expect to be unchanged when they leave your house.

46:25I don't know. I think it's like to demystify things. And also, this idea that we're supposed to be okay and find our way through. It's really hard. It's really hard. I mean, you're lucky. You still have two out of three at home. Well, Billy's graduating this year, so he's leaving. And I'm really sad. And I identify with everything you're saying. the lack of joy, even with just Emily being gone. I compartmentalize things. She is so fucking funny. She is. You know, it's like, it's fine if you have a dud. You're like, okay, go to college. But Emily is like a full comedian. But all my kids are like that.

47:03They're all these like spark plugs and so much joy. I mean, that's the word. And I was in post fires, you know, we had been displaced. And then we went to Paris and our hotel was on fire. I mean, I started sobbing and sobbing. And I was like, am I really upset about this? What am I upset about? And I realized because I was I kept saying, Richard, I want to sleep in the other room with Emily. So we were on spring break together. I want to sleep in the other room. And he's like, well, it's kind of our vacation too. And I was like, but I want to sleep with her. I want to and Billy was like, Mom, what's up with this?

47:36I need to be with you with Emily. And I need to be with you. And then you're leaving. And then we're like, wow, okay. And then Charlie's like, mom, I'm still here. Okay, I'm still here. So I feel that. I really, really do. It's painful as hell. It's painful, yeah. You raise them to be these free birds and to be independent. And then when they go off, you're like, oh, wait, can I take it back? Can you come back home? But it's exactly, that's what we're doing. So how do we remedy that? Like what, I know you're doing a lot of self-reflection right now, But what do we do to keep that joy besides waiting for them to come home?

48:17I think you, it's a bit what you said that you wish that, Robin, that you could go back in time and sit and watch the two-year-old or three-year-old play or however you worded it. I think you make times to do that now as they're adults. Make the time to watch them as adults. They're so cool and kind of watch from afar or close up if they'll come home and admire. Like your big kids are going off into the world and doing amazing things. And it's almost like when you feel that loneliness or sadness, it's like reverse it and reflect it back on yourself and make it pride because they're doing these amazing things because you gave them those tools.

48:54And it's really like making the time to like be with these adults because and I think it's also the other thing that we haven't talked about, too. I think a lot of this is the awareness of our own aging. Yes. And I think that we have to be really clear on that. That's the part. There's a big transfer happening, right? But I agree with you. The adult kids, my son comes home and makes a better meal than I could ever make in my entire life. And the energy comes back. And I just witness it with awe and enjoy. Enjoy. And enjoy and be present. And their thoughts and their ideas and stuff. Oh, so true.

49:32and so keep the community of our women friends like that gives me so much joy yes yeah i think that's like i gotta watch that you know because i'm i moved and i know look how mad she is yeah why'd you do that i know i know we miss you i know i miss i really miss you guys you know that's sort of i think i think that's a good call out actually i think i need to sort of it brings so much joy to connect because we're all in this together you know the way that we We always used to have our dinners and we like, it made us feel good to connect. And I think at least for me, when I connect to my girlfriends who are like-minded, it's like, it really fills my cup.

50:12Yeah, you're right. And it's interesting too, because like my closest girlfriend in Santa Barbara has a one-year-old and a five-year-old, you know? So it's like, we adore each other. And it's like, want to go for a hike? It's like, I have bedtime. I have bath time. I'm like, no, enjoy, enjoy. You know? It's like, I'm taking this one to school. I have a this. I have a parent teacher. We get it. I'm like, honey, boy, do I get it. And I'm like, I guess I'll just sit here and do emails, you know?

50:53Do you guys have, like, moments when you reflect back on, And it doesn't have to be us, any of us in the room, but like where you really relied on another mother to get you through something. Oh, my gosh. Like a specific thing. I had, I mean, for me, it would be both of you because my daughter went through a phase where she wouldn't tell me anything. And I was petrified. I didn't know what was happening. So I needed to rely without ever, neither of you ever did betray her confidence, but I needed to rely that you two were doing that part of mothering for me because she wasn't allowing me in. And I really had to, because I think, you know, for me, there's no ego involved in being a mother.

51:45There just isn't. You have to check that right at the door. And I needed to hand the reins over to both of you and know that she was going to be safe because she was talking to you too. She was talking to us. Oh, yeah. In a time in her life where she wasn't talking to me or telling me things. And so, yeah, I definitely have had that. And I'm so grateful. The village is so powerful. The village. I think that village is so powerful. And I think if I were a young mom today, I'd be thinking, who's my village? Yeah. Right? Who are those people, like, you know, who's, if you have a really sporty kid and you're not a sporty dad, go find that sporty, you know, like, who's your, who's your village?

52:23But I love how you said you relied on them to be, you know, supporting your daughter. Parenting, like, mothering them through a stage where I couldn't do it. I couldn't reach her. Yeah. But you did, and you then helped me. And I remember also the other thing that was so helpful when we had our mom squad and we invited in the psychiatrist to come to our one meeting. Oh, yeah, yeah. And he gave me the best bit of advice, and it was where he said, I want you to go to the worst case scenario and envision that and put that child on that raft and send her on out and she's away from you. And there it is.

53:04There's nothing you can do. She's already out there. I'm paraphrasing in the wrong way. But I think also when we as a collective group of moms were struggling, we sought to bring in outside people to help us also parent. Yeah, that's true too. Which was really helpful. And you had given me the teen coach at the time to help me. And I think it's just having a network of women who you feel comfortable enough and recognize when they say, you know what, I think you might need a little help in this situation. Here's a number to somebody. And so that was very helpful for me. How about you guys? I just love that image of the raft.

53:42I love because there's like fear and faith. Correct. You know, and when you love this, motherhood is like you're so irrational because you freaking love your kids so much. If someone else lied, they're not a sociopath. Your kid tells the first line, they're a sociopath. They're going to, like, you just go from zero to 100. They don't answer the phone. They've been kidnapped. Yeah, yeah. That's right. It's so. Oh, my God. And that just to see that raft, okay, I can observe it. I love that image. Thank you for that. That's a good one. It wasn't mine. He wrote it. He said it for me, but it was helpful.

54:14I would say, you said who is another mother? Yeah. I would say probably the most helpful besides my village, and let's just say that is very, very high up there on the list. I would say that my mom reflecting back to me that I was like whatever I was struggling with. So, like, you always say that Charlie is me because I'm like, who is this kid? He doesn't listen to me. He's so strong-willed. You know, and I'm just like, and my mom's like, oh, you don't remember? You know, and she'll tell me, and I go, oh, my gosh. And then I have so much compassion, and I'm like, Charlie, we're the same. He's like, we are not the same.

54:51I'm like, we are. So I think, like, my mom reflecting back to me, like, you forget that you were like that because I want so much for it to be different, and it's like, it's going to be okay. So I love that. And then, of course, Richard's mom also will be like, well, Richard was like this when he was that age. And I'm like, oh, isn't that like reference? And it's just calming. So I would say my mom and my mother-in-law for sure. That's so nice. That's so evolved. I have a best friend who's a psychiatrist who keeps me. Two psychiatrists? Yep. And she literally, we check each other and we always do.

55:28It's a weird friendship where you can be completely, you can't do that. Don't do that. Okay, thank you for telling me. Nobody's insulted. Everybody's grateful. It's a very safe space to parent. And we've always kind of been that person. And I think it's incredibly important to find that person. And very lucky when you do. And no offense to the movie star thing, but it's like, are people really telling you the truth? And I think you found people who did. I sure did. But I think it's like people, it's like if your kid is doing something, you want to hear about it. We're the moms who want to know.

56:00And so my girlfriend and I, we had a really funny joke. Like she'd give me the side eye and I was like, oops, shouldn't have said that. Shouldn't have mentioned that kid was dating that kid. I guess you don't say that in public when you have a teenager. So it's like I just think that's the beauty of them, of the group. Yeah, absolutely. That's so sweet. How about you? I mean, I think I relied on Dawn a lot because she had my first as a girl like yours, but she, but like you have boys. Tammy had a girl first, but they were the same. Apple and Emily are the same age. And girls are a different animal to boys.

56:44And Dawn had two girls ahead of Devin, Apple, and Emily. and so you would tell me what was coming around the corner and so and that was really really helpful to me like understanding you know whether it was you know when apple started having what now what i then was able to see is separation anxiety when she it was like spring of senior year and don was like oh yeah they do that like they need their it's separation anxiety They break up with you like it's OK. Or, you know, when Apple went to college and like I remember calling you one night, literally heaving, weeping because she had done it twice before, you know.

57:29And it was like there was just that that thing of like, you know, she's just done like what she had cleared the path and done those things. I think it's really helpful. Like Julia from high school, her sister's 10 years older than us. And she always used to say, too, like less on the mothering, but more when we were young, like this is going to happen. And I like knowing. Yes, I like that forecast, you know. I like it, too. And I like my older children started doing it for my younger children. Like when my baby went to middle school and my oldest son said in my middle school, this is the bottom of the barrel.

58:08Like you just, just brace yourself. Rather than the like rose colored, like, oh, you're starting middle school. It's like this is as bad as, this is the worst chapter. And I was like, that's good forecasting. It normalizes it. And the expectation. Yeah. It's good forecasting. Absolutely. Nothing can prepare you for when you're first goes. Nothing. It is a heart breaking, it's like a shattering of the heart. It's weird, isn't it? It's really, I'm still struck by how, yeah, it's, and now you know why people like, oh, you're going to have an empty nest. You're obviously, it's not going to be so bad.

58:51Like, what do you mean? I'm going to go to Cabo for the weekend. I'm going to work around the house naked all day long. Is there anything you guys would have done differently looking back? How long do you have?

59:08I think it's so interesting because I've actually been thinking a lot about that recently, that I knew to like do safe and be safe and be loving and set loving limits and be, have a bridge of communication. But I didn't think there was a simultaneous like parenting to mental wellness script. There was a parenting to the strength, not the fragility script. There was - That you did. You've got this kid, right? But I'm really clear when I'm coaching parents, about not being perfectionistic, not, you know, just letting, you know, I was recently with a lot of parents and I'm like, just let them struggle.

59:45When in doubt, stay out. Leave them alone. Don't speak. I wish I had done a little more. When your kid is going to light a match for the first time, oh, that could be hot. I would have just stayed away, stayed quiet until just been a little bit But you love them. Again, you love them so much. You jump in. I would have been a little bit more mindful of not jumping in so much. Yeah. I feel like I did that too. Like I still catch myself sometimes, you know, filling in blanks. Like I wish, you know, I'll still like, oh, how was the party last night? No. Instead of leaving it there, like did you see so-and-so?

1:00:26Was it fun? Did you blah, blah, blah? You know, it's like why? And then I'm like, why the fuck am I talking? I'm like, what am I talking right now? Like, it's so invalidating. I'm like sort of infecting them with my, you know, it's like I hate when I do that. Like, I wish I could go back and never do that. I wish I had the restraint to ask a question and just let them speak. I'm going to work on that. I have that too, for sure. And I would say for me, if I could change anything looking back, it would be really worry less. Because worrying is like, it's like a negative meditation. We always say, like, when you worry and you worry, it's like, that doesn't help.

1:01:04And I worried a lot every step of the way. And I think it always turns out. It always turns out okay. It really does. Even if they've gone through the most gut-wrenching, horrible experience. And I don't know if I told you the story, but Emily was in a really bad breakup. And her friends had called me. Yep. Okay. Okay. And she, her friends, and she's really strong, you know, Emily. And her friends from college called me and said, she's not okay. We need you to come. And I thought, wow. So I just hopped on a plane and I went to see her. We stayed at a hotel together and I was just holding her as she was crying and she was really, really struggling.

1:01:46And I, in that moment, there was like some kind of like God moment for me because instead of being so worried with her, it just said, You're going to see like this moment that hurts so, so bad is going to be the thing that catapults you into being a different kind of person. You're going to choose differently. You're going to see it. It's not going to be now. But that like that moment of it's going to be okay. I promise you. It hurts so much. But it's going to make you a better version of yourself. And so I wish I had more moments like that where I wasn't worrying with her, like co-worrying and being like, you've got this.

1:02:25We can trust that this is hard. And then later it gets better and it's a gift. Like I'm not going down that road again or I don't need to do whatever it was that I was doing that made me so sad or so difficult.

1:02:45I think for me it's similar to what you said Robin but I say it and then I don't really know that I have the opportunity right now to act upon it and I still pack DJ's backpack and I know I shouldn't he's in seventh grade but I'm still like getting all his stuff so I think maybe I should work on like not always fixing everything and let it giving them more space to fix on their own Although I do feel that my five children do have the great skills at fixing, but it kind of goes to what you both said. But I say it and I'm not sure I can really help myself because it's my personality too. I kind of, and again, it maybe goes to the part of me that's not fully healed.

1:03:26I go to, I parent in the way that I'd want to, you know, what I want to heal. So I jump in to fix for them. Or I do call and ask the 5001 questions. Where did you go? Who did you see? What did you do? So I would like to work on that. And I think that's the beauty of being a mindful parent is I'm in the same thing too. I'm like, why am I speaking? Yeah. Stop talking. It's not supposed to be perfect. It's just progress, right? And do you guys find that it changes? Like, okay, we can ask Dawn because she's always ahead. But does it change? Like, so, I mean, we, some of you guys still have kids at home.

1:04:08Some of us are new empty nesters. Some of you are impending-ish empty nesters. So, like, what happens later? Like, when they're out of college and, like. You want the forecast. I want the forecast. It's really fun. Yeah. It's really fun because you're kind of, like, we make dates to go out with our adult children. Like we'll go out to dinner and I'm like giddy in the car on the way there. And we're all going to stagecoach this weekend and I can't wait. And I'm bringing all my kids and their boyfriends and everybody. It's like you create these really fun moments and rituals. Or, you know, this year was the first year two of my children weren't able to come home for Easter.

1:04:49And they both were like, we are never doing that again. We're always going to come home for Easter. So I think it's just keeping the rituals going and the consistency and always make home, wherever home is, the desirable place to come back to. Yeah. And they do. I mean, your kids always want to bring people back. I know. And your kids always want to be home too. And it's very much the lottery when you get parents who love you and stay in the room and are mindful. Like it's, you just, you're like cradled in love and then you just take that with you for the rest of your life. Like that becomes, you know, so I think that's, I think we all did that part piece.

1:05:29I could write an entire book about, you know, when in doubt, stay out and stop talking. I think you should. Maybe you should. It's almost done. Literally. Really? Literally. It's a book of this is what I would have done. And it's a lot of that. It's a lot of why am I talking right now? Right. I know. I think we have this, it's like this impulse that we want them to know that we see them and we're invested and like, and I just, I don't know, sort of a theme that's emerged from this chat is like this letting go, right? This like, I mean, it's just incremental letting goes all the way, right? It's like they come out of your body or however they get to you.

1:06:16And then they're not in your body anymore, you know? And then they stop nursing if you're nursing. And then they go to preschool. And it's like, you know, each one in increments, it's like, and I think there's a way to take more subtlety to that. Like, let go of this need to impress upon them that you're there or that you need to answer a question for them or, like, that you need to pack their backpack. Like, maybe if we had been better at letting go, then it wouldn't be so hard now that they're gone. Oh, I think it's an interesting question. Yeah. I think it should be really hard to let them go.

1:06:54I agree, Don. I totally agree. And I think also, I think even though they're out there in the world and they're doing their old thing and maybe we don't have to micromanage everything, but freaking call my kids every day. I'm still going to be that annoying mom. I do too. I can't help myself and I'm not going to change who I am. So I think part of the process. I don't think there's any way to avoid the pain and the discomfort because it's like the juxtaposition of the joy. It's like that's what life is. That's what life is. I think that's a sign of having loved madly and deeply.

1:07:32I have so many more topics to talk about with you guys. And I think more self-compassion of, you know, we really put our hearts into it and we made a ton of mistakes and we're going to apologize for those mistakes and we're going to continue to apologize for those mistakes. I think the more as opposed to why am I talking, it's okay, I'm talking. Okay, I'm talking. Maybe I'll let my child. Right. Maybe I'll, yeah. Maybe I'll lovingly pass the baton. I mean, I think you're right. Like, I think we're reacting to our own childhoods, like we said, you know, both the positives and the negatives of our own childhoods.

1:08:09And then there is not a manual. I mean, I remember after having Apple and I had a really complicated birth, as you guys all know. And so I was there for a couple of days. And then I said to Chris, like, are they just going to let us take this baby home? Like, where is the grown-up? Like, what are we? You need a license to go fishing and anyone can have a baby. That's so crazy. And there should be classes. There should be classes. You're about to be, you know, parents. Let's talk about marriage. And I think marriage. Yeah, it would be so helpful to forecast what's up ahead. That's coming. Those are coming.

1:08:48You know something that I learned a lot from you, Gwyneth, is that being a parent, it's like it's so hard. The balance of being a parent is so hard. And the thing that I never learned that I learned so much from you is like the self-care. Because taking care of yourself while you're taking care of these other human beings and your spouse or, you know, and work, it's just you're just bleeding out. I felt like an octopus, like in all of these, you know, tentacles going out and, you know, just learning, really learning how to care for yourself, not just like physically, but also from the inside out.

1:09:23And that's like been a huge journey for me and what I'm interested in too. But I think you have to know how to take really good care of yourself. I think that's right. And it could be a bath. It could be a therapy, you know, session. It could be a book. It could be just carving out time. I think, you know, what does happen is you lose your inner life a little bit when you're a mother, you know? And that's been an interesting part of having them out of the house is that I'm like, oh, I feel like the tingling of my inner life, you know? And space, what do you do with that space? What were you going to say, Tammy?

1:10:05Just like the recognition that I had, especially with starting with Emily, was like, wow, the way that I was raised was so different than the way that not only how I want to raise, but it's like you do it like you overcorrect. And I recognize so much the overcorrection. Like I couldn't talk to my parents about anything or I chose not to because I had to be so good and so perfect. And so for Emily, I'm like, tell me everything. I want you to share with me. And then she would. And I was like, whoa, okay. I'm like, that was a little too far. And I'm like, you be you. How do you want to look? How do you want to look?

1:10:44And she's like, I'm making my hair black. And we look alike, Emily and I. And I'm like, okay, let me hold on to this. It doesn't matter what the color is or what they dress like. It's how she feels inside. Or I'll say, you know, can we, those clothes are really baggy, He's sort of like really baggy. And, you know, mom, this is cool. I'm like, and she teaches me, you're not cool. Like, I'm so not cool. Right? So. I think the latitude that, especially with girls, which is obviously different for you, Robin, because you have boys. Three boys. Three boys. I have one. You have one. But in turn, poor DJ.

1:11:24Squee-jay. Four girls and a boy over there. But I think especially with, I don't know, you know, I think with boys too. I mean, the letting them fully express themselves without the judgment or the side eye or the wince, like sometimes, you know, that's, that took, that was a practice, I think, right? Because you think back to like what you were talking about are in our parents' generations. Like, I think we were a reflection of them. And that was pretty much it in a lot of senses, right? It's like if whoever we were reflected on them and they lack that kind of space to understand like, no, we were our own people with our own identity.

1:12:07And I think they are well-loved when they feel that they can express themselves without judgment, right? A hundred percent. I think that whole shaming culture, you're talking about that nuanced part of parenting. Like, I just remember, like, my teenager's thinking, you're not going to look back with fond memories of this. When you look at pictures, when you're just not going to like, but I'm not saying a word. When in doubt, stay out. Shut your mouth. Zip it, Mom. Oh, okay, right? Would you like me to schedule a haircut? No, it looks great. It's that distance. I'm not you. I celebrate you. I meet you where you are.

1:12:48I see you. And I think that's what this generation of parents, actually, I think we did really well with that. But what is the advice like when a parent feels that trigger, right? Or like, oh, because it could be even about something. I mean, and I guess you have to play with the line, right? Because, for example, like if a child was like, oh, I chew with my mouth open at the table and interrupt everyone because that's who I am and I'm expressing myself, right? It's like, no, but at the same, like, so how do we walk that? The boundary. Yeah, like what's the… I can't help myself, so I always have to say it.

1:13:23So truthfully, but then I recognize it now. And it was funny this past week, Devin, who is the daughter who brought us all together, said to me, I can't believe you let me wear fake nails all the time. And I was like, what are you talking about? I kept saying to you the whole time, like, oh, my gosh, these nails. And she doesn't have any memory of that. She just is now looking back at the pictures. And I think that as long as you say your feelings within, in a loving way, I think it's okay to be like, poor DJ right now, this whole new hairstyle with the boys, it's all fluffy. Like they, you know, and he's constantly doing this.

1:14:00I'm like, Deitch, you got to get a haircut. But it's in a playful. Didn't you say that to you the other day? Like, why did you let me dye my hair? Exactly. I let him dye. He bleached his hair. But how lovely of you to be that brave to just let him be and to let him own. That's powerful. I think that's the key is allowing our children to just be, but I think you also have to honor who you are. Like, I have a big mouth. I have to say what I feel, too. So I think there's just, it's that line of not shaming, but also telling. And knowing each kid is so different. So different.

1:14:36This conversation made me think about all of the forms that motherhood can take and how often it's in the quiet, messy, in-between moments where connection really lives. Sitting with this amazing group of friends remind me how very vital it is to have other mothers to lean on, to reflect with, to laugh with, to feel understood by. There's something deeply grounding in those conversations. There's no perfect way to mother. The beauty is in showing up again and again with love, with humor, patience, and compassion for ourselves and one another. Happy Mother's Day. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios.

1:15:25I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.