Stop Believing Everything You Think

0:28What makes a great pair of glasses?

0:33When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers.

1:20Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the Goop Podcast archives.

1:37My guest today is the brilliant Adam Grant. Adam is an organizational psychologist and a beloved professor at Wharton. He is also a number one New York Times bestselling author. And his latest book is called Think Again, The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. Adam and I talked about why people generally fear being wrong. He says that we live in a world that celebrates certainty and often mistakes confidence for competence. We also talked about why intelligent thinkers fail to rethink a concept and how this limits their potential. Adam explains the trap of letting our ideas become our identities and how we can find common ground with one another while navigating a charged topic.

2:21You'll also find out why Adam is a recovering logic bully. Last, if you can hear it, I'm sorry about the background noise in the very beginning of the conversation. That's just some work from home life for you. So let's get to my chat with Adam Grant.

2:39How is everything? It's kind of fun to launch a book and go on book tour sitting in one place. So that's been the highlight, I guess. How about you? It's kind of amazing, especially when you have kids at home, right? You're not going from one plane to another. love that I can be in nine countries in one day. Oh my gosh. Did you start writing this book pre-quarantine? Yeah, it was an accident. So tell me about the inception of it. I've had a hard time admitting that I'm wrong for most of my life. As a kid, my friends called me Mr. Facts. My best friend in middle school one day hung up the phone on me and said he refused to ever speak to me again until I admitted that I was wrong.

3:23and then you know fast forward a few years and i'm seeing the same thing in all the people that i work with three years ago i tried to get a bunch of ceos to run a little remote friday experiment and they all said no thanks and of course if they had been willing to try that experiment they would have had all of 2018 and 2019 to figure out how to make remote work work when we weren't you know like working while we're we're taking three kids through online school and trying to avoid COVID. And I think seeing that resistance to rethinking in myself and also running into brick walls over and over again made me think, all right, somebody needs to tackle this.

3:58How would you describe the thesis of the book? I guess the thesis of the book is that people generally assume that if they're good at thinking, they're going to be good at rethinking. And that's not true. In fact, the smarter you are, often the worse you are at rethinking. Because you can use your intelligence to contort the truth into what you want to hear and what you want to believe. And I think this is important because we live in a rapidly changing world where it's possible to become an expert for a world that doesn't exist anymore. And the slower we are to think again, the more likely it is that we're going to be wrong a lot.

4:40And is it because you mentioned the thing about intelligence, and I think you mentioned in the book this great thing about being a logic bully, which I thought was so funny. Guilty as charged. I might even become a logic bully at some point in this conversation. And if I am, please call me out. No, I'll be so honored to be bullied by your brilliant logic. It'll go on my resume. But I'm just wondering a little bit about how this happens because I was thinking about this because of you the other night at the dinner table. And my teenagers, they are rethinkers. They're learning and they're open. They've not gotten to that place where they're calcified in their thinking or they're right, right?

5:19It's extremely kind of agile. And so what is the kind of data that we gather throughout our lives to convince us that we're right? And what happens to us? Do we conflate opinion with self? Yeah. I think so many of us let our ideas become our identities and it sort of makes sense, right? It's a way of sort of maintaining a healthy level of self-esteem, right? To feel validated. It's a way of making the world around you more predictable, right? If you were rethinking every single opinion that you had, you would feel like you're just living in chaos. And it's also a way to fit into your social circle, right?

6:02If you let go of your beliefs or admit that you're wrong, then you risk exclusion from whatever tribe you happen to belong to. And I think over time, a lot of us, we come to prefer the comfort of conviction over the discomfort of doubt. And it's easy to say, all right, I'm just going to listen to the ideas that make me feel good, not the ones that make me think hard. To surround myself with people who agree with my thought, or excuse me, to surround myself with people who agree with my conclusions, not the ones who challenge my thought process. And I think that's such a travesty because over time we get trapped in a filter bubble or an echo chamber, and then we're just affirming our beliefs, which is not learning.

6:41We're not evolving. And it's incremental, right? I mean, people get convinced slowly as they go along that they're more and more right. Yeah, I think, you know, we're great revisionist historians. The term for it in psychology is the totalitarian ego, right? Where there's this mini dictator living in your brain, trying to control the flow of negative information and shield you from it the same way that Kim Jong-un would keep out bad press in North Korea. And that means that all the times we're wrong, we can explain away, we forget, we make excuses for, but the times we're right, we take pride in those.

7:17And that's who I am. What is underneath it though? Like what hurts us so much about being wrong? Well, I might be wrong about this. So this is just a hypothesis in the spirit of practicing what I teach. But I think one of the reasons it's so painful to be wrong is we live in a world that celebrates and rewards certainty and that mistakes confidence for competence. So there's this fear, right? I walk around thinking, oh no, if I find out that I was incorrect, then everybody's going to think I'm an idiot. And that means I can't succeed. I can't make friends and I'm in big trouble in life. What do you make of that?

7:57I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Well, there's certainly, it seems like there's a survival piece to it, right? Like I have to, I equate my confidence with survival. I also just wonder how it's linked to self-esteem and how much of our lives we spend fighting the idea of who we're afraid we are and how much being wrong sort of punctuates that. Yeah. My favorite definition of hostility is the one the psychologist George Kelly used, where he said that hostility is that sense of aggression or anger that you have toward someone who's convinced you against your will that something that you already know deep down isn't true is in fact not true.

8:41And then you just want to lash out at them because you're like, no, no, no. I've been working really hard to persuade myself that that thing I was wrong about, I was not wrong about. And I hate you for making me see the light. So how would you apply that to, for example, what's going on right now in our country. And this is why this book is so incredibly timely. I think it's hard. I don't have any silver bullets. But I think there are steps we could take that on the margin might help. So which version of our country's problems do you want to talk about, Gwyneth? Well, let's start from the point of what you were just saying, which is somebody basically shines a light on some aspect of a person that they don't like, or they've convinced themselves isn't real.

9:21And then it's resonant and brought back up. So if you take this binary thinking, you know, take any, any issue that that binary, right? Take abortion. So there is a charge to talking about that topic, no matter, no matter which way you think and what you believe and what God you believe in and what freedom you believe in, whatever. There is such a charge to that issue. And it becomes so incredibly emotional for people so quickly. And certainly for cohorts for whom will have never impact, like men or grandmothers or whatever the case may be, but it's so deeply personal. So I'm wondering if it's true that people get super triggered by some unresolved aspect of them.

10:09How does that apply to one of these super hot button binary issues in the way people think about them? And why are they so reluctant to rethink them? Okay, so I think if I were talking to somebody who has a passionate view about abortion that's different from mine, I would probably start by just acknowledging that I might be wrong or my understanding might be incomplete, right? I want to show humility. I think the mistake that people make when they go into these kinds of charged conversations is they go into preacher and prosecutor mode. I'm right. You're wrong. and then the other person either attacks or shuts down.

10:49What I want to do then is I want to signpost the conversation and say, you know, look, I've spent too much of my life as a logic bully. I just bombard people with data and with reasons. And I realize when I do that, I don't learn anything. And I also come across as really stubborn. And that's not the kind of person I want to be. And so I would love to hear some of your perspective and try to understand it better and learn from you. And very often what the other person will do then is say, oh, well, you know what? Actually, I'm interested in learning, too. And then we've set the stage for a little bit of openness.

11:25Then I think the second thing I would do is I would try to establish that this opinion does not have to be your identity. So on abortion, it turns out that if you go back to the late 1960s, views on abortion were not divided on party lines. this is a relatively new ideological position. And I just ask a bunch of questions. Why is that? How did that happen? How is it that conservatives were not strongly opposed to abortion back in the 60s, but they are today? And the hope is that as we explore that, you recognize, all right, these beliefs are not set in stone. And once you recognize that, you're a little bit more flexible than you were before.

12:04And then from there, what I want to do, you talked about binary bias earlier. We're so good at taking these complex issues and oversimplifying them into two categories. I want to see the shades of gray. I want to say, okay, look, you know what? Let's find the areas that we agree on. We agree that 40 weeks, no abortions. We probably agree also that condoms are okay preconception. Maybe, let's find out. And let's now figure out where we draw the line in between and we can try to be a little bit more nuanced that way. But something happens to human beings in this process and that's what I'm sort of trying to understand is something happens along the way where even in a conversation that starts from a relatively open place, although nobody's going to approach it as you are, unless we take your class and read the book, which I hope everybody will.

12:52Try it at your own risk. But something happens in the course of these conversations where that kicks in, right? The resistance kicks in and the certainty kicks in. And so is it possible to parse the fear piece or the fear of the ego piece from the actual subject at hand? And how do we get back to the actual discourse? Yes. Okay, good. So I'm thinking about the psychology of self-affirmation, which is about how when, if I were to question your beliefs about abortion, neuroscientists would say you might feel like you've been punched in the mind. There's a literal activation of either your fear circuitry or, you know, the punishment system and your natural impulse is to try to protect and defend.

13:46And one of the ways that I can preempt that is by affirming a core value of yours to say, hey, Gwyneth, I know that you are somebody who cares deeply about human beings and who devotes a lot of your life to letting people be authentic. And once that's affirmed, it's a little bit easier to question one of your beliefs or your principles, because all of a sudden your identity is more complex than just I have a stance on abortion. I might start there. And then I guess the other thing that I would be very curious about is the psychology of this that's jumping out for me is this difference between asking why and asking how.

14:23So when you ask people why questions, they tend to double down, right? They find lots of reasons to stick to their guns or maybe their gun vans, depending on their ideology. When you ask people how, then they start to see gaps in their knowledge. And so I might shift the conversation a little bit and say, OK, I want to talk about the substance of abortion. given that there are state rights, not just federal rights in America, how in the world would you even go about formulating a policy and advancing your view? And as people start to think that through, they're like, wow, this is really complex.

14:57It's probably not realistic to have one dogmatic stance. And so now I need to be a little bit more flexible. And again, the hope is that we can have a conversation then, as opposed to just putting up a wall and saying that's the end of it.

15:40Thank you.

15:47Thank you.

16:16need. So I guess I should go back to this because your phrase logic bully, which I love, I guess the reason that this whole thing makes me, it always makes me think about where, how our ego plays a role above anything else, above what we actually think or actually believe. And we can convince ourselves because my tribe believes something I believe in something. And in order to try to convince other people, like we try to break other people down with logic. And it's super effective. I mean, if somebody, I think if somebody's coming at something with more of an emotionally driven opinion, and they don't feel as articulate, to be kind of bombarded with data and history and facts, it really just tends to separate people more.

17:03So how do we identify if we are logic bullies, because I don't think any of us walk around thinking that we are, but in fact, we might very well be. I mean, if you really wanted to get scientific about it, you could start to track your own conversations. So I don't know that anybody wants to do this with the level of precision that we like in social science, but we measure things like question to statement ratios, right? And you see that if you're only giving answers and you're not asking questions, then you're probably more in logic bully mode. Another, I think, hallmark of being a logic bully, and I know because this is what I do all the time, is like, okay, I just realized that somebody seems to be wrong about something that I think I'm an expert on, and it's my moral responsibility to correct them.

17:48And then what I'll do is I'll start giving them 14 reasons. And not only am I making it clear to them that I'm trying to influence them, which leads them to put their guard up, but I'm also diluting my own argument. And if they're resistant to what I'm about to say, then they'll just pick the least compelling reason, number 12, and just throw out the whole case on that basis, right? Whereas if I gave them my two strongest reasons, I'm less of a logic bully, and I'm also not giving them an easy excuse to just say, nah, I don't buy it. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. But I think the real way to tell that you're a logic bully is you're in a conversation with a student who calls you for career advice.

18:27And she says, Adam, you're a logic bully. Thank you for telling me. I didn't know that. And then maybe a week or two later, my wife told me the same thing. And she said, not everyone wants to have a three and a half hour argument about the future of self-driving cars. That's probably true. You know, I don't even think I want to have that argument. But when I get into it and I think somebody is wrong, I just, I love this cartoon where there's a guy who's sitting at a computer and he can't sleep. And the little thought bubble is like someone is wrong on the internet. That's the story of my life.

19:01Oh my gosh. I think that's the story of my life too. Is it? I mean, sort of. When I was sort of doing my own inventory around my own thinking, I think what you're saying is so interesting because I do think that if you're able to cultivate a feeling of that vulnerability is okay, you're not going to be humiliated by being in a debate where somebody's gonna out logic you or be super didactic or dogmatic and there's no point to it. It's really interesting how this flow can come forward between two people. And when you're in defensiveness, it's such a protection having an opinion and being right.

19:41And what you touched on earlier, it's such a safe way to not explore the harder parts of yourself. And I think you can, in the workplace too, and obviously this is an area of expertise for you, but trying to find that balance between like leading with that kind of vulnerability or an openness while also trying to lead and inspire and create boundaries and expectations. I wanted to ask you a little bit about that because it's a difficult balance and one that I'm trying to think a lot about as a leader. So how do you advise people to cultivate that balance? Individually or in their culture? Either, both.

20:23Well, let's start on the personal level. I think we model behavior every day that signals to people what's going to get rewarded and what's going to get punished. So I think one of the best moves we can make is to be the person we want other people to be. Gandhi would have said, be the change. I think what I'm looking for here is to say we could all model a little bit more confident humility, which is to be secure enough in your ego to say things like, I might be wrong. I don't know. I'm not very informed about this topic. And what that does is it sends that message, right? It says to other people, hey, you know what?

21:07This is not a sign of ignorance when you say you don't know something. That's actually a sign that you're not insecure and that you're interested in improving yourself, not just proving yourself. And I think as a leader, if you can take that a step further, I did some research at the Gates Foundation where there was a real interest in creating psychological safety so that people could take those kinds of risks and say, okay, if I ask for help or I admit that I made a mistake, I'm not going to get punished. And one of the things that I found was that when leaders criticize themselves out loud, so Melinda Gates, for example, reading negative feedback from employees out loud, that people felt much more comfortable trying new things, taking risks, rethinking their own views, inviting leaders to rethink some of their assumptions.

21:55And I think what's so powerful about being able to criticize yourself out loud is you're not just showing that you're open to it, you're proving you can take it. And I think that's something we need more leaders to do. So I want to ask you this because I have teenagers. I have two of my own and two step. And as I mentioned before, they are inherently open minded. but but i'm worried that as time goes on and life goes on and they start to compound being right with being successful and they start to as we all do how do you as a parent encourage rethinking or that that openness and thinking to be part of their foundation i think one of the one of the most effective things you can do is to talk about your own rethinking, right?

22:50To show your work. The modeling is a really big thing here. It is, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't realized that was a pattern, but it is. And it's a pattern because if you, I mean, every parent has had the experience of, you know, of preaching at your kids and seeing them do the exact opposite. And they obviously pay more attention to what we do than what we say. And in this case, you could do both at the same time, which is I've actually started talking with our kids. And my wife and I sometimes do this at dinner. We'll have a family dinner table conversation about our biggest mistakes, the things we were most wrong about.

23:28Sometimes it's actually really fun and lighthearted. We had a whole conversation. This is, I think, last year where they were, I think they were talking about the solar system. And it came out that we learned in school that Pluto was a planet. And they were shocked and horrified. how in the world could you think that? They started asking us what century we were from and are we living in the dark ages? And it was a great moment for us to laugh at ourselves, right? To say, you know what? And one of the conversations we ended up having was I said, look, not only did I believe for most of my life that Pluto was a planet, I also was resistant to letting go of that belief because I grew up thinking there were nine planets.

24:11if the solar system isn't what I thought it was, what else am I believing that's wrong? And that's pretty destabilizing. And so it was a chance for them to make fun of me, for me to make fun of myself, but then to really show, hey, you know what? When you screw up, when you're wrong about something, you can laugh at yourself. And yeah, maybe you're a little bit embarrassed that you were holding on to an outdated belief, but that's a sign you've learned something in showing that, right? You're teaching your kids to laugh at themselves too. Yeah.

24:47and so important to separate that feeling of as you say humiliation from being wrong you know because sometimes I mean actually this brings me to another question that I wanted to ask you about which was you talk about imposter syndrome in the book and this is something that particularly I I'm not sure about men, but I definitely know that women and my peers, women CEOs, absolutely feel it a lot. And there's a great deal of energy that goes into covering for that feeling. But you say that there are actually some advantages, right, to having imposter syndrome. So I would love to hear you explain that a little bit more.

25:31Sure. And I'm curious to hear whether this tracks with your experience at all or the many women CEOs and founders that you hang out with. So this all started when we had a doctoral student at Wharton, Basima Tufik, who was interested in imposter syndrome. And she decided to study it and look at what impact it had on performance in different kinds of jobs. And she found she basically just measured how often people had imposter thoughts. So how often do you doubt yourself, question your abilities, think that you're not as good as everyone else thinks you are? And she found with investment professionals and medical professionals, there were no costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts.