Systems of Self-Care (with founder Katara McCarty)

0:02When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world.

0:58Here we go. Today's guest is Katara McCarty. Katara is the founder of Exhale, an app focused on the mental wellness of Black women. In our conversation today, Katara shares her own personal story of being adopted into a Black family as a biracial child in 1970s Indiana, and how that upbringing rooted her in the values of community care. We talked about her journey from being a pastor for nearly two decades to deconstructing her faith and creating exhale out of frustration at the lack of culturally relevant well-being resources available to Black women dealing with collective trauma. The app is beautifully done, and I asked Katara if she ever finds herself at odds between educating others about the frameworks that cause harm to Black women while also encouraging Black women, including herself, to slow down and rest.

1:53Her answer really made me think about the ways white women should be entering into conversation with Black women, how we hold space for them, and how we can fully center their experiences while acknowledging our own responsibility in dismantling these systems of oppression. So let's get to Katara McCarty.

2:14I want to ask you about your toolbox, as it were. What I didn't realize when I was doing research because I met you socially first at your house. No big deal. Was that you're a pastor? I was. Yeah. For 18 years. Yeah. How crazy. Can you tell me about that? Oh my God. How did you tell me a little about how you fell into that and why you're no longer a pastor. Oh, do you really want to talk about this? I do. Okay. As long as you want to talk about it. Yeah, no, no, it's fine. I didn't, I didn't grow up in church. And so when I was in my twenties, I was kind of searching and feeling like I'd, I'd come out of a really traumatic relationship.

3:05It was an abusive relationship, toxic relationship. And so emotionally it was starting to get physically abusive too. And so I was kind of searching for like, you know, some peace or some something. And I, my sister was attending church and she was like, girl, you need some Jesus. Like you, you need to come to church. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. I mean, we weren't raised in church. So it felt like, and, and I had observed some things that were toxic about the church environment. I was like, I don't want nothing to do with that. But anyway, I ventured in and had a spiritual experience. I still acknowledge that as a spiritual experience.

3:56What happened? What was it? I mean, I felt like the pastor was like literally speaking to me. Like, I was like, do you know me? Like, it was like a whole group. It was congregate, you know, his congregation. But when he was talking, I was like, have you been following me around? Like, how do you know this? I just felt really compelled to like, they had an altar call and I found myself in the altar. It was like a whole encounter that was really beautiful. I still have fond memories of that time in my life. I was in my early 20s. I had just had my daughter and it really grounded me. I think the biggest thing for me back then was community and having people kind of rally around me and love me where I was at.

4:44And it was a really beautiful experience. Then I met my husband. He was raised in church and was on a mission to, like, become a pastor and start his own church one day. And so he was so cool when I met him. I was like, you're like, you're like a church boy, but you're so cool. Like you listen to like music I listen to, like R &B and rap. We fell in love, got married and he was pursuing, you know, starting his own church. And I was just like, are you really, like I literally two years ago was backing it up in the club. Like I have a baby, you know what I mean? I'm like, I don't think I'm pastor wife material.

5:28I mean, I'm not going to put my hair in a bun and play an organ. You know, I'm just not that girl. And he was like, no, like, I think that you could really add value and from your experiences. And so we embarked on launching our own thing. We did that in 2000. And I'm still really, really proud of what we built. My deal with him was like, OK, if we do this, it has to be a place that accepts all people, anybody like the Katars of the world that got pregnant at 19, had to drop out of college, was backing it up in the club two years ago. Like, like it has to be a place that is like inclusive. And he was like, absolutely.

6:11Like, that's what I want to build. And so we embarked on it. We started in our house with four people. They were family, all of my sister and his sister and her kids and people came. And what we found is people that showed up were folks that were either unchurched or we called them de-churched. So people that were kind of fed up with the politics of church and the religious, the rules and the regulations we were drawing to our house. And then we saw our spiritual, like pure form of like the, like Jesus's actual teachings. Yes. Like what he actually said, if you go back through. Exactly. So we just loved everybody.

6:57We just loved everybody. We built something really beautiful. We started a school and church in Zambia, Africa. We were able to raise money and drill a borehole for a village there that didn't have clean running water. we started an afterschool program for children in the neighborhood called the Center for Success. And kids would come, you know, back then they were like, these are at risk children. And I was like, well, I just think these children just need a place to go. They just need a place to go after school. And so we would help them. I created it. We set it up like I set up my house. So we would give them a snack when they got there, which is what I did with my kids.

7:38We would sit getting better. So we were a community church. We really were about outreach, like reaching beyond the four walls. We drew people that wouldn't fit into a traditional religious setting. So back in 2000, people were freaking out because we were like, gay people were coming to our church and the religious community in the city was just all up in arms like, my gosh, what are you guys doing? What are you doing over there? We're just loving people. So I had a really beautiful experience. We had a beautiful staff. It was amazing. And then we, my husband had an opportunity to start working.

8:24He was bivocational for several years and started what's called the culture of good and within a company, this organization and company, and just was doing a lot of good. We used to do backpack giveaways through our church and he was able to do backpack giveaways that were like 60 ,000, 100 ,000 backpacks instead of just a thousand backpacks through our church. So we kind of like saw the right, he saw the writing on the wall. It took me a little bit longer to see the writing on the wall that he could do make greater impact being a part of creating his own company. And so we transitioned out of pastoring, not because anything went wrong or anything was bad.

9:04We just felt like he felt like that was a, he could do more good taking that route. When we transitioned out, it started happening before we left the church. I started having what I call a deconstruction of my faith. And so I don't adhere to Christianity. I don't adhere to any form of religion. I am a spiritual person, but I don't practice any particular religion. I just - Did you feel that it was confining or judgmental or it just something devolved naturally? Like what happened? Yeah, I felt like it was what we had created at God's, it was called God's house. What we had created was, I didn't see that in other places.

9:56And so while it was really beautiful and wonderful, that wasn't the norm. And so I felt like I didn't want to be a part of an overall religion that left, you know, it wasn't inclusive. Wasn't inclusive is actually oppressive of women. And I don't, and again, like I don't have any, I don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to say anything bad about it. I'm just, I just personally can't be a part of an institution that, you know, that doesn't accept all people and love all people. And so for me, it was about my values not aligning anymore with the overall religion, right? Like the overall values of Christianity.

10:45So I just, yeah, I just decided to, like, I don't want to be a part of that anymore, you know? at goop we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect that's why we're drawn to convene a global hospitality brand reimagining work in meeting spaces centered around design and care convene's sophisticated purpose-built locations are designed to inspire connection whether it's a board meeting for 10 a team off-site or a workplace membership that gives you and your team a home base. With hospitality at its core, every detail is taken care of, so your in-person time feels seamless, elevated, and intentional.

11:27If you're looking for a new workspace or planning your next off-site or meeting, schedule a tour today at convene.com. And for our Goop listeners, mention Goop to receive up to$500 off your next meeting or event reservation rental fee. This promotion is valid for all new clients on select spaces booked and actualized prior to December 30th, 2025, and subject to availability. Convene for the moments that move your business. So when you were young, you grew up biracial. White father? No. White mother. White mother, Black father. Black father. But you ended up, didn't you say you ended up kind of being raised more in a Black house?

12:13Yeah. Yeah. So I was born in 1972 here in Indiana. We going to be 52 this year. Yeah. I was born in 1972 in 69, 1969 in the state of Indiana. It was still illegal or it just like the law changed in 1969 here. Before then it was illegal to marry outside your race. Wow. In 1969. So I was born 1972. So my white mother got pregnant by a black man and her family. How'd that go down? They were like, it's a big no for us. Like you can't bring, I mean, they, they said to her, I now know because I've met my biological family. You can't bring a black baby home. Like you just can't. And their family, once the, a small town here in Indiana found out she was pregnant by a black man, they just harassed her, her sisters, their family.

13:17She was getting a lot of pressure. And so when she went to the hospital, she had me and then she left me there. She just bounced. So I went into foster care, no named baby, went into foster care and my file came across a woman's desk that had a niece who had already adopted one little baby girl and she wanted a sister for her or sibling. And so she called her and she's like, Hey, we have this baby. We're having a hard time placing her because she is biracial. Her mom's white, dad's black. And my now mom, my mama, Betty was like, bring that baby over here. I don't care. Like bring her. And so I got delivered to into the Waters family.

14:04I was just a few weeks old. And my mom is a black gay woman. So she was never married. And so in 1972, for a black single woman to adopt was just so progressive and so beyond the time. especially in indiana right in indiana yeah and so her and my grandmother pulled their resources together to purchase a home and in a predominantly black neighborhood so all my neighbors were black all my friends were black i grew up in a black neighborhood i didn't know really the difference of like being biracial like i even were you made aware of the fact that you were biracial yeah like Like my mom was always really honest with us and told us we were adopted and what that meant and that I was back then she called, she would say you're mixed.

15:01And, you know, my grandmother would hot iron my mom's hair and my sister's hair and my uncle's hair. And I would be like, hot iron my hair. And she'd be like, sissy, you have that good hair. We can't hot iron your hair. You know, so there were, there were like differences that I would notice, but I always felt so much love. My mom and grandmother, especially my grandmother, was just the most nurturing woman. She taught me about community care, how to show up for community. Growing up in the Black community, if somebody up the street is hurting, you find out about it, you show up, right? And so she taught me about how to show up for your community.

15:41And yeah, I grew up, I had such a beautiful childhood. My mom is such a badass. She's like, I always felt really safe. I'd be like riding my bike or out running the streets when I got a little bit older and people be like, who's your mom? Who's your mom? Like Betty. And they'd be like, oh, don't nobody fuck with Betty. And I would always just be like, yeah, that's my mama. Don't nobody fuck with Betty. Don't nobody fuck with me. So I always felt really like safe and protected and, you know, everybody knows everybody. And my mom still lives in the small town that I was raised in. I was just there on Monday visiting my grandmother's grave.

16:18And yeah, I think that my values and just the way I'm wired and who I am comes from growing up in that house in the Black community. And did you have any, or how would you characterize your relationship to the white part of you? Was that in the forefront, in the background? Did you contemplate it? Did you not? Was it relevant, irrelevant? Yeah, I mean, it was relevant because once I got to school, I remember being in the first grade and I'm sitting beside this little girl and we became friends, like fast friends the first day. She was a white, little white girl. And I remember going home and being so excited that I had met a new friend.

17:01And I went back the next day and sat beside her again. And she looked over at me and she said, my mom said that we can't be friends because you're black. And so I just remember being like, that's odd. And it was like my first interaction with racism, like, wow. And then as I got older, it was like kids would find out that I was biracial and make fun of me and, you know, call me Oreo cookie or you're a zebra or things like that. And so it was present. But when I would go home, home was home. I could be fully seen and fully loved as a whole person in my home and in my community. But yeah, it was something that was present.

17:48It also – I was always really curious about my birth mother and my origin story and like how did that come about. And I always kind of thought it was probably because of being biracial and that my dad was black. And then years later, I did 23andMe and Ancestry and found my biological mother's family and my biological father's family and found out that that really was the story. And so I think there was a part of me that knew that already, though, that could feel that and sense that. Yeah. So in the ensuing years, you've become, you're an author and you have a podcast and you're an acclaimed speaker, but you've really honed your work towards the wellness of black women.

18:41You have an amazing app called Exhale, which is so good. It's a beautiful, it's so beautifully done. We've talked about this before, but of course, being a black woman in America, and I don't know about the rest of the world, but I just know from my friends, you know, there are microaggressions or harm all day long, but black women experience. it could be micro or macro aggressions but but your hypothesis is that there are systems of oppression that exist and then there are those interactions that come within those frameworks that cause harm to black women and exhale is kind of is this beautiful app that centers black women's mental wellness and really physiological too, right?

19:38Like the meditations, et cetera. So how did this become your focus? Like the empowerment around self-care and how, how are they linked? Yeah. Yeah. I never intended to launch an app. It was never on like my like a vision board or my goals one day, I'm going to have an app or a tech company. In 2020, we were all really troubled by the state of the world and the pandemic. All of us were told to stay home. And so with my job, I could stay home. Some people couldn't. And so I was really stressed and worried. And then the news started reporting that the pandemic, COVID was impacting the Black community disproportionately.

20:27I have an elderly Black mother. My sister is a social worker. She was still going into people's homes when I was home and other people were, we were told to stay home. So I was really, really worried and stressed about my community. And I was also really frustrated because the news wasn't reporting the full story. They were just saying Black people, well, the Black community has pre-existing conditions and that's why they're getting COVID. And I'm like screaming at the TV. I'm like, we have pre-existing conditions because of systemic racism and health disparities. So I was just really frustrated around that.

21:06And then the killing of Ahmaud happened. And it played out in our news feeds, the news cycle. Watching him basically getting hunted down was just so traumatizing. for all of us to watch, but specifically for the Black community. And then Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, others. And I mean, what I was feeling along with the Black community, that level of stress, anxiety, trauma. And I know that we all knew that this oppression exists in our community. It's not like black men don't get shot, right? Like this happens, it has happened, it's happening. But watching it, it was like it was being exasperated during that time.

21:58And so I could just feel the collective grief, the collective trauma, the collective anxiety. And I just started asking myself, like, well, what am I going to do? Like, what are we going to do? Like, I have to show up for my community in a meaningful way. and after we left pastoring the church, I became a certified coach. And so I coach, I was coaching people around their wellbeing and their life and mental health and their emotional wellbeing. And I just was so frustrated by what I was experiencing. And I was reaching for mainstream wellness apps, popular wellness, mental wellness apps to manage my own stress.

22:38and they were saying nothing. They were offering up nothing to the Black community during that time. Now, they've been catching up. They've been playing catch up since. But during that time, they were not offering culturally relevant content. And so I remember thinking, well, there has to be somebody's doing that. Somebody's providing resources for the Black community, specifically black women because of our own intersectionality and being black and being a woman. And I'm like, surely there's something. So I go on a Google search looking and there's nothing. And I was like, how could there be nothing?

23:16And so I remember running upstairs, I was down in my basement and I remember running upstairs and I told my husband, I'm like, oh my gosh, I think I have an idea. And he's like, we're in a global pandemic. You have an idea? And I'm like, yes, I have an idea. And so I told him, I really want to create an app that Black women can go to that speaks directly to the way in which they have to weave through life and how racism and misogyny weathers our mental health. It weathers our emotional well-being and impacts our physical health. And so I'm not an app developer. I didn't know how to do that. So we just started Googling, how do you bring an app to life?

23:59How does this happen? And we launched our minimum viable product in August of 2020. I remember writing meditations on my front patio after I would go to a Black Lives Matter march. My husband and I would drive to Louisville, Kentucky to bring awareness around Breonna Taylor's, her being killed. And we would go do that. And I would come back and sit on my patio and write another meditation. And then I would go in my closet and record the meditations. We're real fancy over here. We're real fancy over here. And, you know, I just saw a need and I saw a gap and I wanted something. And I started asking my family members and my friends, Black women in my life, like, would you use something like this?

24:47Do you? What do you think? And they would be like, oh, my gosh, yes, yes. And so I got the idea and we made it happen. And it came out of frustration, but more so it came out of a place of rage. Rage that there wasn't a space for us to exhale, to breathe. I really believe there's power in our breath. And just like George Floyd, that knee was on his neck and he kept saying he couldn't breathe. I was like, if we could just take a breath as a community. Yeah. That's how, that's how XO came to life. So what is it specifically like, how did you think about creating content or meditation specifically geared towards Black women?

25:36Like how would somebody interfacing with it know that it was designed for a Black woman? Well, first of all, when you open the app, you're gonna see representation. So we have Black women in the app, models, our photos, and also our meditations and breathwork techniques are really designed to speak to us. So for instance, we have a meditation that talks about microaggressions, right? So instead of ignoring that we face these every day, we have a meditation that talks about that and how to decrease our stress in those moments. We have a meditation called Our Ancestors where we do a guided meditation to connect to our heritage, right?

26:25Like our people. And so it's not just about having, you know, seeing myself, but it's about hearing myself. It's about hearing about my experiences and that they're valid and that there's a way to decrease the stress that comes from these systems of oppression that impact us negatively. It was in 2020 that the CDC declared racism as a public health threat for the first time. The medical community acknowledged that That was a huge acknowledgement and a huge awareness, right? We know it's happening, but for them to declare that is really significant and powerful. And so we need specific tools, specific resources that speak directly to that, that it's harming us, right?

27:22Instead of something general, we're more specific with our resources. What are some of these existing like tropes, if you will, around Black women in our society as it exists today? You did an amazing survey that I read. Was it last year? Did you do it? Last year, yeah. Called the State of Self-Care for Black Women, a really in-depth survey. And I was surprised by a lot of, I guess, surprised and not surprised, but it was just sort of stunning to see it all, all the data aggregated in one place. Because I think it's particularly brilliant that when you set out to do this app, you had a vision for it.

28:13And then as all founders do, right, as you progress, it seems to me just looking at you from the outside that you wanted to sort of have a depth of data behind why the app was necessary and tailor the app more and more to the need that exists and why. So has a survey like this ever been done before? No. No, it's the first of its kind. So tell me how you did, like, what was the impetus to do it? Yeah, I mean, I wanted to hear from Black women. We were pulling some resources together to build a new version of the app so that we could launch. We launched it last year, but we had gotten a grant and got a tiny bit of funding.

29:06And so I wanted to know and hear from the women that I was creating this for. And so it started off as like market research, right? Like, let's ask. Let's ask what do they want? Would they pay for something like this? How much would they pay? What are they? And then it's as we started developing the questions in partnership with one of my Highland sisters. Shout out to Stella from New York. She is a physician there, beautiful Black woman, amazing, phenomenal, smart. We started forming the questions and with her partnership and this analytics firm, we realized that we could do a more robust full report on the state of self-care for Black women.

29:56And so we broke it into asking a thousand and five Black women about their mental health, but also about their emotional well-being and their physical health. So it's like a 30-page report. You can go to our website, xl-app.com and download it and read through it. But we wanted to hear from Black women. We wanted to know, like, I know how I feel. I know how my girlfriends feel. I know how my mama feels and auntie and them feel. But like, I want to hear from a larger group, Right. And so we surveyed demographic. Was it like age working, non-working? Was it a mix? It was a mix. So it was different socioeconomic statuses, working, not working, mothers, not mothers, heterosexual, not right.

30:49Right. It was not heterosexual. Right. We wanted like a robust mix. And so we set out to do it and we got some amazing data really confirmed that I was on the right track around creating Exhale and that there was a need in the market. Black women said, yeah, we want this. 77 % of the Black women surveyed said that they want more well-being tools and resources catered to support their specific needs. And so, yeah, the data really informed how we built the new version of Excel as well. And so we held some panel discussions. We were able to take the data on the road and have some really beautiful events where we got to have conversations and Black women came up to me afterwards and said, oh, my gosh, I'm not alone.