The 5 Principles that Lead to Resilient Humans (with developmental psychologist Aliza Pressman)

30:30And I didn't really give myself space to reflect on like kind of worry being manifesting as a piglet in that way, if that makes sense. Yes. And so I could also give a lot of, you know, places where I've had judgment for myself or, you know, even other people I love in my family or whatever, where I was like, whoa, like that actually that nervousness was, was worry and worry is trying to protect the loved thing. And we can actually just work on how the worry manifests. And I thought that was really interesting. And, you know, when you read books like Getting the Love You Want, there, you know, there's such an emphasis on what you also emphasize, which is that kind of space between, which is almost like I think the parenting you're doing when you say nothing at all and are just there.

31:19So like, to me, I have different mantras that are, you know, all the time when I'm just in the kitchen, I could just be cooking dinner and the kids are in there. And just to kind of bring mindfulness to chopping, I just like have a mantra where I'll say, I'm okay. It's okay. We're okay. And I'll just say it all the time because I have such a deep belief in fundamental okayness and that just being like kind of a base that I think is always someplace we can get to. Like, I don't think we can always get to thriving and I don't think we can always get to a good day, but I do think okay is usually in our reach, even in the, on the worst day ever, like to just have a, in a single breath, it says I'm okay.

32:00And I felt that there was such an offering of, of that in this book also, which is that we, there's such a possible path to okay in how you parent and how much of the parenting happens when you're not saying the rule or doing the thing or it's actually in how you move and how you regulate and how you get freaked out or, and how you, you know, become however your worry manifests. And I, and I thank you for that because it gave me a lot of space to, to reflect. So I do want to have you talk to us about what are the five principles of parenting, you know, because that is the title of this book and, and they're all ours and they lead to the big R, which I also loved, but I'd love for you to kind of, for the person who wants to pick up this book and might be intimidated or might not really know what it's about.

33:00And it's also hard to be like, here's the five principles. And you're like, really, what are they like? This is crazy. So I want to know, I want to share them with our, with our peeps. Okay. And I want to tell you that I also just want to say, cause I remember your fundamental okayness from when you were, when I first met you when you had, when you wrote your first children's book. And I think that there is not enough emphasis on growing human beings who are real, who really understand okayness. So I don't want to gloss over that because I think a lot of the problem with how we're all doing is the expectation of something much of thriving all the time, or something must be terrible.

33:55Something must be so wrong if there's just an okayness. And, and I also think there's a lot of pressure in general, and then I will answer your question, but I do think there's a lot of pressure in general to be exceptional. And of course we want all of our kids and we, all of our kids to us are exceptional and we are all exceptional. And also we're just people doing our thing. And a good day is exceptional. Like, you know, and I think that sometimes too, if you're overall is I'm okay, or I'm just getting through. And then you just might have one. I flew with my kids yesterday to new Orleans and it was kind of just us.

34:44My mom was there, but she wasn't sitting with us. And I hadn't flown kind of like leading the charge with my kids in a while. And I don't, and I'm not someone who brings my kids everywhere. Like I think some people are really good at being like everywhere I go, my kids go. And I'm like, I don't want to be the person with the screaming child on the flight. So they had to just get to the point where I knew they'd relax on the plane till I would bring them. And I, but my mom is, is a little nervous. So she's not like really like my best sidekick for like a, like if I'm kind of like, Ooh, like, is this day going to be a doozy?

35:19You're not borrowing her calm. I'm not borrowing from her nervous system. I'm reacting to it. So, and so I'm going through the airport and and then I call Simon on the plane and I'm just like, I cannot get over how great these kids were in this thing. And I was also just like, Oh, I can do this. And sometimes, you know, we have to kind of like find okayness through the nervousness where I said to myself before, it was like my kind of personal pep talk was no matter what today looks like, because just airports are stressful, children in public are stressful. I was like, you know what, no matter what it looks like, it's okay.

35:57And no matter how they kind of roll through the day, it's okay. And so, and it ended up being great because of that. And it felt like such an awesome day for me, but it was also because it wasn't like, Oh, listen, like as long as I just only have one meltdown, it'll be, I was just like, it just doesn't matter. Like we can just like go into this day and whatever happens, happens like anybody else in the world, like, and we're going to give ourselves certain things like extra time so that like, we don't have to add things like feeling rushed and we don't have to, you know, be stressed and we can try to kind of do what we can.

36:33But I remember thinking like, wow, this is just, I was, I felt as accomplished as I did after like a book tour day or something. I was just very like, this is great. But it was actually because it was totally okay. Do you know? And I wasn't sitting there being like, oh, we all got upgraded or we all got, it wasn't even like that. It was just, we, it was okay. And they were, and it was great. And everyone got to bed whenever they got to bed and there wasn't a like, and I was able to just be like, it can just like, however it falls, it can lay. And that was a really big, I think that's like just a big moment when you have kids.

37:12I mean, you know, I have almost four and a two and a half year old. So even be able to approach them like that was just like, I didn't feel like super mom by any means. Cause I was like sweating under my armpits and like, oh my God. And I like begged for a glass of red wine as soon as I sat down on the plane, but I was just like, it's okay and that's so huge like I don't think that's to be undervalued like that's it is and it feels really good to realize like I just we did it well I think so much of it and it was probably helpful that I was reading your book yesterday but so I have to show you I have the cutest photo of Bayou she's sleeping and her little toe just creeps up on your book and it for like sparkle fingernail polish.

37:59It was so cute. I have to have that. And so, but it was also, I think because the space in between the, like the, the words unseen, like the, which are the stories we tell ourselves was where I actually put the most care for the day. Like I made, you know, the kids stuff, I know how to take care of kids and make sure that they're going to be okay as they get through an airport or whatever. But it was like that your book really reminded me to like, just like care for my nervous system and my own energy. And actually that is what maybe not giving care to that is what makes me so fragile in other moments.

38:38Like if we're at a restaurant or if we're da, da, da, or do you know what I mean? And then that is what they are then responding to. And so it was really, I was grateful because I actually felt like I got to use some of your wisdom yesterday. I, I think that much of the work of this whole thing of being a person is to just pay attention in that way that you did so that these moments don't have to turn into something that yeah, it gets everybody like turns into a tornado of, or that we identify with or we prescribe them with, we're just like, you know, all the time I hear people be like, oh, they're so tough or this is so, or they're just wild or they're not.

39:24And I'm always like, I don't know what they are. Like, I really like sit in like the giant question mark of like, who will you become? And, you know, and, and I think that that wonder is so, um, you know, it's what I want for my friends, which I think like, I always joke, I'm like Memphis, every day is like, mom, I don't want to go to school. I want to lay in bed all day and watch movies. And I'm like, damn, I do too. Like, that's the hard part. Like everything that you want to do. I so get like these kids really do want the same thing as adults. I'm like, I literally just want to do that. Like truly, like you are speaking my language.

40:04Like I do not want to get up and do any of the stuff we have to do today. And so do you know when they're just like, I want to like stay up and cuddle. I'm like, yes, I would like to stay up and cuddle. You're my, my weekends. I mean, having teenagers is funny because you are meeting closer to the place of wanting to be doing the same thing and watching the same thing. Gilmore girls. Oh my God. We're good about it. Gilmore girls was like, you know, when you're, you're like, okay, we're just going to watch one show. and I remember the first time we started Gilmore Girls I mean I was so excited and we kept being like okay one more episode and it was just like the binge that was the first binge watching that we did together and I was like I love this and by the way the pressure like you can binge watch Gilmore girls and still have all the wonderful things that your hopes and dreams that, you know, all the hopes and dreams.

41:11Like, I don't want it to seem like all of this is like, who cares? You just chill and no, you know, that's it. But I do think that the productivity of our parenting, the volume on that needs to get turned down quite a bit. And we're so hard on ourselves, but let's just say you are hard on yourself and you are thinking, I, yes, I'm, I, I want to be an effective parent. I think the irony of it is that you are a more effective parent and more productive. Like if you're really looking at these achievement outcomes, having time to connect and binge Gilmore girls is going to be more effective. It's just, I don't like the language of effective and productivity around this.

42:07And can we, because what we know for sure is that every single person needs release valves. Can we try to bond with our kids in release valves instead of like thinking that the bonding is always like, I, we always have family dinner, but I was like, is that a space that is like a relief, like a space of like release and relief for them. Exactly. And so like, because what we, you know, every person, you know, who struggles with, you know, anger becoming, you know, something that is unhelpful rather than helpful, you know, frustration, you know, manifesting into the physical, like all these things, it's because people are looking and have not yet found the right kind of space of release.

42:47And, and, and these, like these places to just kind of like pull the thing and say like, oh, I go for a walk. I go for a run. And it's crazy because you notice it in teens, you know, I've spent so much time with teens in my life, whether that's mentoring or with Simon's kids. And, you know, when you see that someone's really stressed, like, I always think like, well, what are you, like, what, what, what can the community around this child do to like, for, to, to bond in a space of like the release valve, because that's where there can be like an easier flow of information to understand how this stress built to this place anyway.

43:25Like, what is the place like, you know, does even if they're just 17 or 18, like, should they be running? Should they be doing this? Like, I mean, I know you, you speak a lot about movement and I mean, I know you're going to go through the five, but something I loved is that your distinction when you talked about the rules, the distinction between what was it? limits and boundaries. Yeah. That was really revelatory for me. I, I think especially right now, and we can get into the five R's, but one of the R's spoiler alert is rules. And I think that one is, is sort of like, it's less pretty and it's less popular, but I really, really feel like that is, it's an important distinction to understand boundaries, which are about us and our relationships and the limits that we're setting around behavior and our expectations around behavior.

44:29And that both of those things are so important for safety, but they're so not sexy and current and they don't feel like they go along with the other principles because the other ones are relationship, reflection, regulation, then rules and repair. And the thing about rules is that they only work if you have a strong relationship, But you can't have rules in the absence of a strong relationship without it becoming a controlling battle, you know, that just feels like it builds more problems. Yeah. But I am most people who are listening to this or reading this book, I think boundaries are really hard to develop later in life.

45:36Yes. And it goes with that well-meaning love sometimes that boundaries and limits. So that category of rules are hard to implement because we feel it's sometimes a betrayal and it doesn't feel connected. It doesn't feel close. And so I just wanted to, when I was figuring out, like, I was like, what is a handful of the science that is so important for children's development and our development? Like, what do I absolutely have to have in there? I really struggled with the rules part because I know that it upsets people because sometimes it feels too rigid. What I loved about it was it's old school in a way that is like non-toxic because you do clarify.

46:37But I was talking to this child psychologist once who she was giving a talk to a group and I love her, but she was giving this talk and she was saying something. She's like, so I, and she was giving all these ways that she responds and she'd always just drop her tone down to a tone that is not even her speaking tone. And so I remember saying, I was like, I just got to say that like, that's not, if that's not even the tone you speak to a friend in, like, why is there like a certain, like, kind of like monotone, like, now, is that what you really want to do to your brother right now? And I was like, and also in the real world, exactly.

47:11If someone's crossing the street and your child is in London and looks the wrong way. And somebody says, Hey, Hey, Hey, they actually need to be able to hear a difference in like tonality to say like danger, not right, freeze. But if you are always dropping down into some, like, you know, it's, I was like, that's just like parenting should not create a space where your home is a non-reality. Yes. And then they are like freaked out when they get in the world. And it's like, listen, like in the world, there are rules like in the world, like understanding limits, boundaries, rules, like that is, and guess what?

47:49Like learn to identify them so you can see if they're unjust or, you know, inequitable or all these things and you want to break the rules, but you do have to have like this idea of like, you know, it's like how not to shame this style, but like the people who are like, I never told my children no. And you're like, but the world will tell them no. Like, what do you mean? Like, you're going to, they're just going to be like, I live in a, like all yes. Or ask them a question. Why household? And I'm like, what do they do when they go to McDonald's? Cause they'll end up there. Okay. Like somebody is like saying something crazy.

48:24Like, what do you mean? Like you have to be grounded. And so what I really liked about seeing rules, because, you know, in a way when you read any parenting book, because it really is such a new thing to have these ways of like having true curiosity about the self and how you parent. and it's not like, you know, there's, there's nothing really old school about this approach. I loved seeing that because I was like, thank you for being real. And it was almost like an actual, and like, maybe like an actual parent came in here and was like, well, first of all, like there's rules, like, because that's just, and, and it, and to me, I thought it was cool because again, And it just made like so much of your book, it made me feel like I could do these things or it could opt out of certain things.

49:18I loved that. And I loved that all of your R's then lead to resilience. And that's, that's the thing that I think it's not happiness. It's not thriving, except ultimately all of the, we want all of those things for our kids. But first of all, if you want your kid to be happy, they have to have an understanding about rules. But there's relationship comes first because relationship truly is, you know, if you can be in relationship, you can take toxic stress. And they studied, you know, kids who are coming out of World War II, World War I. And when you have one caregiver with whom you feel safe and feeling safe includes having rules and boundaries, you can move what is measured as what the science calls toxic stress, which kind of floods your brain with cortisol relentlessly.

50:20It doesn't stop. So it doesn't have a chance to recover and can lead to really, really harmful outcomes. It moves those experiences into what's called tolerable stress and tolerable stress has the chance, even though you don't wish it upon anyone to build resilience and the key to it. And I think this is so heartening. I think it's the most heartening thing about this whole field is that relationship is all it takes because that's free. And it is, it just requires us and nothing else. Your partner doesn't require a partner. It doesn't require any, anything else. And so to me, that is like, what?

51:01There's a free and totally in my control way of making sure that no matter what my child's not going to experience the kind of stress that leads to the kinds of terrible things we hear when we hear about toxic stress. And then on the other side of it, relationship also is there to bolster the experience of even positive stressors that absolutely are necessary. You cannot have a childhood without positive stress. Positive does not mean that it's like exciting and good, but it just means it's the kind of stressor that is part of a system that is loving and working and just like, it's just a natural stretching or like mini tears of the muscles so that they can build and grow stronger.

51:57And all of that gets you closer to that sort of resilience. And I'm careful about the word resilience because we put it on other people as like a quality. And I, I find that very harmful because the expectation is that somehow you it's your fault if you're not resilient and that someone who is resilient did it all on their own. And I think that's just a false story, but relationship then reflection is kind of, it gives you the opportunity to understand yourself and your child and be available to regulate. Regulation, we talked about so much. You cannot think of a more important component of our existence than having capacity to regulate our nervous systems.

52:54We just can't walk through the world without a way of turning off our alarm system when we need to. And yet there are also times we need to make sure that there, there are real threats. We do have to ring the alarm bell. So you don't want it to be like, there's nothing. You don't want to disassociate from your life either. Exactly. Well, something I loved is that you don't emphasize resilience as this abstract idea, you actually talk about all of the almost like, you know, entry points and on ramps that lead to it. Because I know from right, trying to write about resilience myself, it was one of the hardest pages to write and remember love because it's something that just means a million different things.

53:41And I think that it's like used in ways, kind of like vulnerabilities, one of those words too, where you're just like, what does this even mean anymore? And like, how, how does it actually function and, or even shame, I think is another word where it just gets used and it's like all over the map. And so you, or you really wonder like, how do I get there? And so I thought it was really cool the way that this book shows you not how do you get there as a destination, but like, how do you just kind of get onto like the interstate that is like living and moving with resilience, if that makes sense.

54:17It totally makes sense. And I think that's the thing that that's the more doable thing. That's the reality is that we can't like just, you know, say we're going to, we're going to have a resilient kid. I'm going to be a resilient person, but there are skills that you can build in your children and yourself that are highly linked with resilience. And when you add that to the five core principles, primarily relationship, you're giving your child the best shot at bouncing back from adversity, setbacks, and trauma. That's just the reality. You can't change temperament, but you can give the tools and the exercises to each of your individual, you know, I talk about the different kinds of flowers in your garden, but you can't change the flower.

55:15I didn't say this, but somebody said, basically, you can't change the flower, but you can change the environment in which the flower grows. And that's how you build these resilient plants. Cause you're not going to change that. You have one child who might be a little bit more cautious or a little bit more sensitive, but you can think about, okay, well, how can I help them build the necessary muscles to move through the world in a way where they know that that's how they operate and they can give themselves the room to get on that resilience, the on-ramp that you said. And when you combine the skills that you're helping them grow with the support that you're giving them through these five principles, that's the best shot they're getting.

56:02That's the best shot they're getting at resilience. And it's pretty, it's a pretty robust science that's been decades in the making. So I feel good about it. Like a lot of science is like not really relevant to every one of our kids. So I don't even bother with it. Like the minutia of this, the science of all of the different things, like when you're, when you're first getting anxious about making everything just so perfect, which way the stroller is facing, let's say, like, I remember when I had a little, like my first baby, there was an article in the New York Times about the stroller facing one way versus the other way and child outcomes.

56:40And I was like, well, this is a problem because someone's going to read this and hang their hat on it and think that it's like super important and maybe even get a fight in a fight with their partner because they didn't have the stroller in the right direction. And it was like a study with, for this particular group of kids in this particular setting, when, you know, the weather was a certain way, it does not translate. Well, and what I find is that it also, what it really triggers in people is their own not enoughness, which we all struggle with. That's a universal thing. Universal. But sometimes the not enoughness manifests as like, I have an absolute opinion and I'm absolutely correct about this thing.

57:22Oh no, no, you've just got to do this. I don't know. You've got to get the chicken from here. You've got to get the da, da, da, da. But I like, you know, it gets very like the, it manifests as like a control of like, I am absolute, like it's a, as a not enoughness becomes what I know for sure. And it's so good. Yeah. Because you're actually trying to control the things you can't control while not controlling yourself, which is the only thing you can control, which you talk a lot about in the book. And what I really also loved reading about in this book is because, you know, your, your podcast, which I am a devout fan and listener.

57:58Something I thought was so interesting, even though it's not like you didn't write about it as in the way of how it kind of pertained to your podcast being called Raising Good Humans, but when you write about how we first survive and then we become wise and the part of our brain that can kind of really take in and move and and build wisdom starts at 18. And it was so fascinating to me that, you know, that is when in Western world, like kind of the parenting in the nest ends. And so this idea that all of your parenting is in preparation for them to go into the world and build the wisdom that will inevitably, like their brain finishes being cooked in a way.

58:45And then they have the opportunity to be a good human or not. And you could kind of only really be there as much as possible for that kind of first part of the development, because then they have much more freedom when they're going off to college or they're going off into the world. I know. And so I was like, because, you know, and it's weird because everything you say, you have this kind of way of backing it with science and with these incredible studies. but it also is information that feels really intuitive because all the time you hear people say like, well, yeah, then they just, I went off to college and then I like really became my own person.

59:23And you're like, no, you at 18, actually like your brain started having like a hunger for like wisdom and self-building. And because somebody had helped you survive to that point. None of us do this on our own. And I mean, the funny thing about the brain, which is like a detail that if people are interested, they can see it in the book, but, and, and this is not, you know, it's not fully developed and it's important to know that, you know, your four-year-old of course is going to have trouble and need to co-regulate with you because the part of their brain, the part of her brain that is able to self-regulate isn't fully developed until at the earliest 18 and sometimes as late as your late twenties.

1:00:13And in girls, it's typically a little, you know, it's closer to the 18 than the late twenties. And I know that that's, you know, like a whole other bag of conversation, but I think when you, when you, there are very few differences in brain development in that way, but it is interesting when you think back and you're like where, what, what, what was going on for me in my life in that 18 through my twenties? Like you really do realize like, Oh, I get it now. Like that is kind of this beautiful, fully developing brain coming out. And if you imagine like, you know, when a horse is born, and it starts walking.

1:00:59Like, I feel like that's, it's like you get out into the world and you've been yes, supported and developing, and you are always going to be supported. We're always going to be hopefully in these relationships with our kids, but there is a sense that this is the time that they are practicing to get out in the world with their fully developed brain to grow into their wisdom and to feel like they were supported and safe and in a structured and enough environment to get their legs going. And we can do that. And it's not, it's, it's doable. And if we just don't get stuck in some of this, I don't even want to use the word precious because I think it's, It seems negative that I'm saying this, but I do feel like we just get in our own way because of our sense of not enoughness, that we don't allow ourselves to just kind of let our shoulders go down and trust that we are enough and we're exactly what our kids need and that it's not as complicated as it's made out to be.

1:02:13Like I was thinking about, of course, we could go through questions all day and all night. And I used examples in the book because I know that people have specific questions. But the truth of the matter is that all the courses in the world and all the questions and answers in the world come back to kind of the same thing. And we just like need to hear it maybe in different ways. But it's so simple. It really comes back to the same things, whether you have a baby or a toddler or a teenager. And it's only made complicated by the stuff that we impose on ourselves. It's really actually like, to me, I hope a relief that this is not the thing we have to make so painful.

1:03:04and I feel like it's about you know removing those blocks of like so much of what puts distance between you and your child is shame so much of what puts distance between you and your child and we know this because it does it in our romantic relationships it does it with friends is judgment is wrong or right is narratives we're creating it's distraction it's lack of like kind of quality, real awareness and attention and everything I think your child needs, you need. And I think that that's the kind of, I kind of loved feeling affirmed in that and reading your book because I was like, yeah, you know, it's, it is, you can just think like, okay, what if I was talking to my friend and she was kind of not looking up from her phone while I'm talking, I'd be like, excuse me.

1:03:54Like, and so it's like, actually, if, you know, my kid is doing that, like, and they're, they're frustrated, like they're asking for the same thing I would want. Do you know? And I think that the more we work on befriending ourselves, the easier it is to have this kind of fundamental kind of baseline of friendship and not that kind of like toxic friendship. People talk about with parenting a lot where they're like, I'm their best friend. And you're like, first of all, like, we don't even know, like, what we need to be doing as friends half the time because friendships have these crazy roles of like, you know, well, another bag of conversations.

1:04:30Oh, my God. It's important. That should be your next book. But I so I think that like but the idea that we are kind of, you know. Nurturing in ways that we know nurturing feels good to us is critical. not even just in ways we know we need nurturing, because I think that a lot of that is kind of intertwined with our own experiences that may have been tough or traumas or whatever it is, but to say like, what nurturing would feel good to, I know feels good to me. And in that there's all of the kind of awareness that comes with the five senses that we can kind of give and be in community with, with our children, whether that's like how we see them, how we hear them, like touch all of these, you know, kind of all of these really intuitive things.

1:05:22And so I, I want to thank you so much, not only for this conversation, which to everyone listening there, I just need to tell you guys how amazing Lisa is because I'm in Louisiana at my mom's house. They are digging up the street behind me. So as she's been speaking, I've had to put my end on mute a few times. Cause there's like a bulldozer outside. Oh my God. My kids ran in at one point, Three dogs started barking at another. My mom, I have a cough, maybe RSV. I'm not even sure. My mom went up the stairs. Like it is actually so chaotic. So the idea that we were able to have this loving, focused conversation is completely because you're such a genius.

1:06:03This book is so incredible. It really was such a gift to me as I've been reading it over the break. I hope everyone gets this book or gets it for a friend or gets it for somebody for whether it's Mother's Day or to kick off the new year, because I really loved it. And I'm not just saying that because I love you and I love your podcast so much. I loved this book. I love the way it's written. There's also this whole other kind of metaphor you have about trees and how their exhale is our inhale. And that is like a whole other thing I want to talk to you about. But I just, I'm so grateful for how it's written.

1:06:41It's so truly helpful and it's such incredible wisdom. So thank you so much. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. That means the world to me. That means the world to me. And the fact that you could do all of this in that mayhem shows that you are definitely a mother.

1:07:06thanks for tuning in to today's episode with aliza pressman her book the five principles of parenting is out on january 23rd and i can't recommend it enough thanks for tuning in this has been a presentation of cadence 13 studios i hope you'll listen follow rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening to the Goop Podcast.