The Pursuit Series: How to Define Your Personal Code

23:18Emily Hickey:And so they developed retail brand codes that with all the store rollouts they were going to do, there was going to be a skeleton and a lab coat. Why? Because it transmits clinical strength, right? Which you can appreciate as being the founder of a beauty brand that is something that you're always trying to translate. There has to be a brick wall that looks like it came from Williamsburg and a very urban kind of brick wall, exposed brick wall. There has to be a crystal chandelier that looks like it came out of a flea market in Paris. There has to be a wall of photos on the brick wall that is tailored to the community to bring the community into the store.

23:48Emily Hickey:So if it's a young family neighborhood, you'd have pictures of people, young parents with strollers. If it's a singles neighborhood, you'd have pictures of people and their dogs, right, as a way to bring the community in. And then they can tailor the store to the neighborhood from there, but those five brand codes always have to be there. So again, it's these non-negotiable DNA elements of something, they get translated out aesthetically and psychologically. So then what we did was we started visually with you, you pulled together this whole mile long Pinterest, you know, mood board, which was fascinating to see, you know, in terms of all the, what you love in clothes, you know, and the pictures of yourself that you really like and the women who you think are really inspiring.

24:33Emily Hickey:And so that was sort of the first fork of the visual exercise. The second one was more of like a psychological one of attitudes and vibe. And that's the one where we did that free association of looking at a picture that we liked and you would just like say phrases, which I like were incredible. So that was sort of the second thing to like capture the, who do you become, you know, and then we laddered from there.

25:10Gwyneth Paltrow:You know, I think it's funny, right? Because like when you're a creative that runs a business, you are driving off of instinct all the time. And it's always challenging to try to operationalize your instinct, right? And that's kind of what this was. Like I'd never sat down and thought about, you know, oh, like, right, what is this juxtaposition of like masculinity and femininity showing skin but also having a tomboy thing, right? Like always finding the woman underneath the clothes, like always wanting to feel, right, like the sex underneath the work suit, right? It became a very psychological, emotional contemplation of how clothes are able to, in success, bring forth those aspects of yourself that you are striving to show or that need to remind you of who you are.

26:21Gwyneth Paltrow:Right. Like I remember when I was, you know, going out and fundraising in the early days of Goop and, you know, being in these like boys club rooms and, you know, dressing the way I dress, which is that particular at the axis of, you know, masculinity and femininity. but like making sure that you know I felt like oh I have nice underwear on I know that I'm a woman under here you know like I'm comfortable and there's something even if it's not facing out you know like I'm I'm remembering that I'm a woman and not so for me and for me that was like because I think especially then you know there was intimidation around having a a brand that was by women for women.

27:13Gwyneth Paltrow:And, you know, you're trying to sort of find these ways to connect with these tech bros. And for me, it was really important to remember my femininity as well.

27:24Emily Hickey:Yeah, I love that. And I think so. Yeah, the instant, the codification of instinct, that is what brand codes do. And it is the great, I think that when companies really do well, and they never get lost and they always do the right thing is because they took the time to codify that. You know, this is who we are. This is who we stand for. This is what we do. This is how we show up. And so codifying your concept of yourself in a way that could be universal and that could translate to clothes. And so like I told you, I've got boxes of sweaters. I'm going back to the real, real right now because I've gotten hooked on Gwen sweaters, but it, because, because they make me feel a certain way.

28:06Emily Hickey:Like you can cut a sweater a lot of different ways, but what's the way that you cut it that gives it attitude, you know, and that makes somebody feel a certain way when they look in the mirror. And how does it make you feel just out of curiosity? I mean, it makes me feel baller, you know, like it's the mix of feminine and there's always some, the way that the, that the sweaters tuck in and tuck out and fall out and are oversized or are like, it just makes me feel cool and chic. And like, I'm not trying very hard and masculine, feminine, and things have to be cut. Well, I think, especially at our age, like you, you can't like things have to be cut well and they have to look expensive.

28:49Emily Hickey:Like they kind of do because you, I don't know. I don't think you need a lot of clothes, but I think you need good clothes if you're doing a certain thing with your life. And yeah, I just, I think that, that the clothes succeed in what you were trained. Of course, like a lot of this is really going to hit the waves are going to hit the shore even a year from now in terms of the full collections probably starting fall.

29:10Gwyneth Paltrow:I mean, it takes a minute, but even now,

29:13Emily Hickey:I think that you've built a lot of that feeling and attitude, but I have the slide pulled up. if you want to show the attitude. This really inspired me. This is like deep, deep, deep behind the scenes.

29:27Gwyneth Paltrow:But this was like, so I found these pictures, right? Of like women that inspired me. And then you asked me like, what is it about every single one? Like, talk to me about why you put this on the board.

29:40Emily Hickey:There are a couple of key ones. Like you had said, the idea of boobs, you know, which really I understood because, and the one below that I thought was so important too, that women don't dress for men, right? Women dress for other women. We all know that. And that if you're too sexual in the way that you present yourself, you drive away other women, you know?

30:04Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah. Yeah.

30:05Emily Hickey:But there's a hint of it, you know, like the idea of friends being in cahoots towards a shared standard code, a shared language in a way that an attitude of our generation or the friend group or whatever that we're trying to put forward. But that I thought was a really cool thing to build in here.

30:22Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah. I mean, I think just going back to the first thing, you know, I think it was interesting for me to sort of sharpen why the thinking around why, Like that picture of Jane Birkin to me is so perfect. It's like, you know, you've got, yes, you have the, you see the woman underneath. Like you see who she is and the sort of like insouciance with which she's carrying herself, the confidence. But there's also something quite boyish, which I think does not alienate women, right? It's like to your to what you were saying, it's like if you and this is not I'm just talking about this is like this is me.

31:08Gwyneth Paltrow:This is my thing. Like I I don't hold it against any woman or any brand that wants to really, you know, like overtly sexualize themselves or, you know, or do that through clothes like that. That's great. And I have I have friends who love to dress like that. But for me, I think because women relationships are so important to me, what I uncovered was that I hadn't even thought about it before, but I don't dress in a way that is sort of evolutionarily threatening to other women. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. No, exactly.

31:47Emily Hickey:Yeah. I love that. That's the psychology. And like, so you, and you can think about already how that would translate to visual brand codes and personal brand codes of like, that's, that's who I am. That's who I represent. So when I get dressed, I'm going to start to experiment with or deliberately think about how to have these juxtapositions. positions. You know, there's masculine, feminine, there's like the perfect dial setting of femininity or sexuality and not trying too hard, living in the moment, like doing something impulsive, you know, like in an awesome way, like how, what you can imagine also how those could be personal brand codes.

32:24Gwyneth Paltrow:You know, I used to, when I was young and lucky enough to be around like Hollywood legends, you know, these women that I saw, I think that were really influential to me in terms of like knowing themselves, dressing as themselves and this idea that I don't need to try to be young. Like I am whole and I am so fucking cool. And like, you'll understand in 20 years, You know what I mean? Like that. Yeah. Yep.

33:00Emily Hickey:It's a total expression of self-confidence and just knowing who she is and not pandering to anything externally at all. The inner life thing, you know, and all of this too, by the way, like you have codes around photography, model selection, the styling closet, the hair, you know? And so, and again, you're always reinterpreting, but that these are the, this is the psychological attitude of this brand, you know? And so how do you capture that? You know, how do you capture a woman in a life, right? That's very different than typical fashion photography, which is typically shot in a studio. How, how do you capture a woman's inner life or the intellectual exploration of herself or the values exploration, trying to keep integrity at like no space between, you know, the mistakes that how, how do you capture that?

33:48You know, but that's important here, obviously, substance.

33:54Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah, it's such a cool exercise, right? It's like I sort of dress like this, but I had never I had never sat down and sort of thought through or set out loud. What are the kind of psychological or emotional motivations behind things?

34:11Emily Hickey:Yeah, it's so important. It's so important to get your hands around because I think it's hard to be defensible as a brand if you do not have your hands around that, because that's the thing that you can own. You know, there is no other you or there's, you know, like it's a point of view that if you express it well, you know, through the clothes and the key items and the signature detailing and the photography and everything else, then you create something that's very ownable. And you really have succeeded when you give people, like we talked about this on another one, in the context of Apple, a self-image to step into, you know, where they become bigger, you know, and that's the cahoots thing of the brand with the customers.

34:51Emily Hickey:You know, it's being in cahoots around a definition of a woman that resonates with them, you know, and that they step into. And by wearing the clothes, you're becoming that, you know.

35:03Gwyneth Paltrow:So like, for example, this is kind of an interesting thing because I don't, I have never seen or heard a friend say like, you know, I want to dress like X, therefore I'm going to go look for clothes that will reflect that, right? It's like your instincts drive you towards what you like. And so it almost becomes this subconscious expression of what you're trying to telegraph, right? I mean, have you ever thought like, OK, today I'm going to go out into the world dressed as a this? No, it's like you you're you're you're walking through a multi-brand store and you instinctually are drawn to something, a color, a silhouette, the idea of something.

35:53Gwyneth Paltrow:so do you think that people's like what is the relationship between that instinct and your psychology around who you want to be or are trying to convey that you are

36:09Emily Hickey:well I think that people don't think that methodically about themselves of course nobody thinks like that but the brands do and that's why I think the brands are obviously holding up mirrors to all of us that, that the brands, if they're doing their job, right, you know, have a code and they're thinking hard about this and they're experimenting and they're drawing us towards it. And so when we walk through wherever, like you're, you're, you're doing a literal exercise of resonance, you know?

36:38Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

36:40Emily Hickey:Right. Like, and why you have your brands, I tend to shop the same brands over and over again. And one of the, Like it's so fun to try a new brand and to see something that's popping into the world with a new point of view, but that you can relate to because it draws you with them, you know? Yeah.

36:56Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah.

36:56Emily Hickey:And then you have to start to think about color engineering. You know, that's something like that's very important that you, again, like it's this left brain. The brand is forcing itself to create scaffolding for its creativity with this type of an exercise. And then it's going nuts with its right brain. And so when you think about colors, you could just pick something. you know, or even like product names, what are you expressing in a product name or a color name? You could just pick a color or you can have a color engineering brand code where we want to make women's skin look warm and beautiful, you know, color from the point of view of a code, you know what I mean?

37:32Emily Hickey:And you can still be creative with what that color is, but the DNA, again, prescription, prescriptive clarity from the code is that if it doesn't make a woman's skin tone look warm and beautiful, then we're not going to use it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's an example. So how would warmth, how does something psychological like that show up in a brand? It shows up in brands all day long. You know, it shows up in as a mile is a model smiling every picture you like of yourself. You're smiling by the way. And so interesting. It is interesting. And the, you know, how do you convey warmth and friendship?

38:07Emily Hickey:Like all of the words, how do you shoot something that feels like it's a group of friends, you know? And

38:14Gwyneth Paltrow:how do you, when you're, you know, directing one of these shoots, how do you do that?

38:19Emily Hickey:Well, I think that's an area for exploration for you guys, because I think this is a hard stage of life because you're so busy and you're doing whatever you're doing. You have your own family, probably you might be caring for parents or aging. You're like, you're working. It's a very, it's very hard to have active, always on friendships at this age. I think you're, you're,

38:37Gwyneth Paltrow:you're actually really good at that, but I really prioritize that and I can't live without it. Like I cannot, especially with the kids out of the house and, you know, starting their lives. It's like my friends bring a grounding and like an orientation to my life, you know, which is not the same as the one that kids do, but it's, it's, it's, it's like a lifeline to me, like to, and especially with old friends, like my dad, my dad always used to say, you can't make new old friends. That was like one of his, his great phrases, you know? And I think because what's implicit in that is like, of course it's the history and the shared stuff.

39:30Gwyneth Paltrow:And like, you both laugh at 16 candles and you have the same, you know what I mean? All that. But there's also like this witnessing of your life as you go through all these different phases, all the transformations, all the milestones, all the, all the things it's like, you know, my best friend, Mary, like heard my parents fighting through a wall. Do you know what I mean? Like in the eighties, like how, how could you ever replace that or let go of the incredible like framework or, or compass that that gives your life? Like, so to me, it's like, non-negotiable.

40:15Emily Hickey:Yeah. Yeah. I know you're, you're, I feel the same way emotionally and I don't do a good job prioritizing it from a time perspective. And you, you, that is part of the infrastructure of your life that, that that's really, really cool. I I'm always trying to do better with that, but, but emotionally I agree, you know, like it's the breakfast club thing of like, oh, I've got this thing in my family too. You can't replace that. And I, so friendship, you know, how do you show that? I mean, there's your book shots and, you know, but I still think that there's a lot of experimentation ahead with Gwen and becoming, always becoming that's, that's good, you know, and it is okay to become in public and that's what's exciting about this, you know?

41:02Emily Hickey:And so I think there's a lot of experimentation ahead with Gwen. Should you just take a shot of yourself in the closet like you're just walking out the door or like with friends you know and or with things that look like they're friends the gossip girl sitting on the steps of the public library in New York you know like they're I don't know there there are ways to cue psychology into photo shoots it just takes experimentation I think but that but friendship

41:25Gwyneth Paltrow:yeah yeah it's interesting because like I I think about my friends too when I'm designing the Gwen clothes, you know, like I'll think about Julia in Chicago being like, I don't want to show this part of my arms anymore at this, you know what I mean? But I still want to feel cool. And, you know, so it's like, I think my friends are actually a really important part of the, in the background thinking. Yeah.

41:57Emily Hickey:And how do you, you know, you, you wearing high tops, where that are unlaced is a very different choice than wearing something that's just completely put together top to bottom, you know, so just experimentation around how do you convey this psychology, you know?

42:11Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah.

42:21Gwyneth Paltrow:What do you think are brands that do this exceptionally well, meaning like in the assets, They have been able to fully capture the essence of the brand through the codes.

42:32Emily Hickey:Yep. Do-Anne does it extremely well. They have from the beginning. And it's that romantic, feminine. They will not let go of that. And they also have a code of we want the customer to feel like they know us. So cool. Really nice. Why wouldn't you want that? Certain brands, of course, like the row, that's not what they're going for. But for a brand like that, you know, there's an intimacy to that. And the girls, you know, Catherine and Margaret, I mean, like they they're very open with their lives. But that whole team is really on the same page about what that photography is going to look like, what they're so disciplined about who everybody in the world wants to collab with Doen right now.

43:13Emily Hickey:And they say no to everything. But then they'll say yes to the gap. You know, like they have a good instinct around their own, like around their codes and what they're trying to be. And, you know, I think there's some young brands that I really like that I think are doing this really well. Still here in New York is one of them. They always do these kind of billboard campaigns that you can tell you're downtown. And it's super just chill. They're cool. They're really cool. That's a cool brand. And I think that they're very evocative in the way they shoot and the way that they do events and how they prop style the events and who's at the event and where it is.

43:45Emily Hickey:And like they thread their kind of downtown insouciance, almost 90s, that kind of thing. They thread that through the visual events. I mean, that's the idea too, is like when you establish these brand codes, then you're not just doing a random event in the Hamptons, like all of it, it's coming out the pores of everything that you do. And it's all a creative towards an impression that you're creating on people.

44:06Gwyneth Paltrow:So, yeah, because I think people can sniff out in two seconds now, if something's being, you know, put out there for commerce, like people, I think people more than ever want to feel a connection with the brands that they like and use. And, you know, that's why to me, when people say they trust Goop and our clean beauty, you know, portal, for example, like it's so meaningful to me, right? That like we've, people know that there's authenticity there. Like they know that we've taken the time to do all of the research and to comb through all the evidence and to offer a selection of beauty that's non-toxic, for example, right?

44:46Gwyneth Paltrow:It's like, And it takes years to build that trust and authenticity, circling back constantly to what's important and kind of what you were saying at the beginning, right? Like, what are the moral codes of a brand?

45:00Emily Hickey:Yeah. Well, and that's what drives community. Why is there such – you could blow goop in the worst way humanly possible and you'd still have a community of women around this brand. Like, it is so strong. And why is that? Because you represent something and you stand for something, which again is the value and validity of a woman's life, you know, and that you are showing what it is to be free. What does freedom look like for a woman? It involves self-governance and discipline, but exploration of sexuality. And like, you've always championed those things, you know, that it's interesting and brave and unapologetic and iconoclastic.

45:43Emily Hickey:And like, I think right now it's even, it's just so important to celebrate what freedom looks like for women. And we've talked about this a lot, but who, who do we celebrate as a brand? That's part of how you create community around a brand is you put a pole, you know, you put a stake in the ground and say, this is what we stand for. These are our codes. We look for it in the world. We're going to celebrate it because it gets women get too lost in the world. And it's not clear. Like what, what is a cool woman at this point? You know, what does the brand think is cool? What do we think is worth putting up on the podium and saying, that's what modern women looks like.

46:14Emily Hickey:That's what freedom in a woman looks like. Right. And that it would. And I do want to say I what I appreciate, one of the things, many, many things I appreciate about what what you're standing for is edge. And so, you know, I just really appreciate that you're putting kind of the dial over here. And I think it's important. It does not hurt to do that explicitly as a brand. It works, you know, to be. Yeah.

46:37Gwyneth Paltrow:And it's also like our, you know, I think if we're not doing that, right? It's like, I don't, I don't know about everybody, but I, I have always been so inspired by radical declaration of self and of art through whatever form. It's like, I think we all want as women to be able to radically declare ourselves in the face of whatever as a, like we, you know, we have that we have, and we're so many of us, I think, feel not entitled to do that or not entitled to do that until they're a certain age, you know? Yep.

47:22Emily Hickey:No, I love that radical self-declaration. And I agree, but how do you have the courage to do that? That was another thing we were talking about is like reassessing yourself midlife. And how do you have the courage to actually make big changes? I love that when people make big changes. I'm like, awesome job. You know, that's hard. Embarrassing. And like, yeah, I mean, how to and how to do that through clothes. Like, have you ever drastically changed the way you dress or it's always been? You know, I there have been times where I have sort of gone out on a limb like, oh, today I'm going to try to be this maybe type of person like in my 20s.

48:05Gwyneth Paltrow:And it was always like an abject failure. Like I always look back at those pictures like, what the fuck was I doing wearing that thing? And I don't have a lot of those because I think I have always, my baseline has always been very much like Levi's in a shirt, you know, like I, and a blazer. And it's like the boots change and the blazer changes and the, you know, all of the silhouettes change. But you can tell when a woman is dressing like herself, there's such an ease there. And, you know, like there were a few there were a few times where I was like, you know, there was one McQueen look that I wore to the Oscars one year that was like kind of a goth situation.

48:53Gwyneth Paltrow:And it was actually like it's such a cool it's it's it's very cool, but it's not me. Right. And so when I see that one, I'm like, oh, that was a real that was a real choice there, Gwyneth. Like that was just because it's, and I, it just is so not what I dress like, you know?

49:17Emily Hickey:No, I love that though. I mean, you have, it's the electric fence thing. I'm like, okay, I'm going to try that and then come back, you know?

49:23Gwyneth Paltrow:Totally.

49:24Emily Hickey:Well, I think that we, you know, it was really cool. I mean, a lot of the codes that we brought from your wife, of course, and from the DNA of the brand, of course, one being discovery and curation. And so when we think about our third party brands that we should be bringing really exciting new things to the market, but also travel, feminine, menswear, sexuality, the people who you put kind of around yourself, the idea of a friend group, you know?

49:50Gwyneth Paltrow:Yeah.

49:52Emily Hickey:And, you know, 90s, New York City, city country, you know, tweeds. What does that say about textures and fabrics? And how does that that to me is one of those? It's always like all these fashion brands, there's contradictions and juxtapositions. How do you modernize something that's old? And, you know, that stuff I think is all really, really fun to think about. So, yeah, so we had a lot of fun digging into it. Yeah, we did.

50:13Gwyneth Paltrow:It was a great, it was a very illuminating exercise to go through. And, you know, again, like you, your, your mastery is sort of creating these synergies between like all the feeling, all the textures, all the intention and like turning it into a consumer facing thing. It's such a special gift that you have. Well, thank you. I find it very inspiring to think through these things with you.

50:46Emily Hickey:I do, too. It inspires me, too. And that's, I think, when we know we're on the right track, you know, because that's the point, is to animate ourselves and everybody else and do this in a way that it somehow is made obvious and subtle at the same time. You know, and so I can't wait to see what you guys do with the collections. And also just a point of encouragement, I think, to women, you know, that you can always reinvent. And we are never done as women. That's how we are. And to have the courage to, and maybe the, the take the time to actually kind of dork out and think about this in a disciplined, methodical way of who am I going to become this year?

51:23Emily Hickey:You know? I love that. What am I afraid to do? What am I afraid to be? You know?

51:31Gwyneth Paltrow:That's good. Well, thank you, Miss Emily Hickey. Thank you. That was so Oh, fantastic. Thank you for coming on the pod.

51:40Emily Hickey:Thank you for having me. It was so fun.

51:47Gwyneth Paltrow:Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.