The Risk It Takes to Bloom

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2:09Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it, want it, let it come from the intention of real truth for you, and then let it go. For me, our soul is like it's unbound. It's limitless. But we will use words to limit ourselves. When people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves. And that's where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and this is the Goop Podcast, where we bring together visionaries, scientists, healers, artists, and seekers. I'm so grateful that I get to interview these extraordinary thought leaders and share their wisdom with you.

2:57And I love listening to the conversations that are led by my co-host and dear friend, Cleo Wade. Cleo is a beautiful poet and author. I deeply admire her and the way she keeps her heart open to the world. Together, we believe that engaging in open-minded, honest, and sometimes difficult conversations has the power to change our lives. All right, over to Cleo. Raquel Willis is the author of a stunning debut memoir called The Risk It Takes to Bloom. Raquel is an activist and media strategist whose work focuses on Black transgender liberation. She has held many prominent roles, including executive editor of Out Magazine and co-founder of Transgender Week of Visibility and Action.

3:45Today we talked about what it's like to write from the vulnerable place, to expose the parts of us that we have worked so long to protect. Raquel shares intimate stories from her childhood growing up in the South and the grace that she worked to have for her younger self and parents throughout her journey. We also talked about the moment Raquel's path into activism became clear. She shared her advice for those who are afraid of saying the wrong thing and how we all have a role to play on our collective path towards liberation. Okay, let's cut to my conversation with Raquel Willis.

4:28Happy pub day yesterday. Thank you. How are you feeling? It's weird. I honestly it's like one of those things where you're like what does it feel like when your dreams come true and I I feel like I was born and then next thing I knew I was walking in front of a crowd with Laverne Cox asking me deep questions about my life and signing books and people waiting in line for that weird. It's meant to be. This book is so beautifully expressed. And what I loved about it so much is, you know, I know you and I really feel like I know you now. And so I'm excited for this journey. The people who already admired your work are going to have, and this book, I, there were so many people I wanted to give it to because for me being from Louisiana, reading it, I was like, wow, this is such a deep expression of life in the South and Black family hood in the South and all the ways in which it, you know, it's so specific how we grow in and break the mold of those family units because there's so much ritual and there's so much tradition because the ritual and tradition is how, you know, Black Southern America survived for so long and to be changing that in your family by living authentically and freely as who you're meant to be.

6:03I was just so inspired by the evolution and all of the details, like your mom playing the flute, like just like made me giggle, like, because you just feel it. Like you feel this kind of, I don't know, you, you, you feel that there was an invitation into your family and that you were almost at the table and everybody loved you at the the table and was going to be honest in front of you. And that's what reading the beginning of your book felt like. And so I want to thank you for that because it just really made me smile as a girl from Louisiana, especially. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, it's very Southern, but I mean, I don't know how to tell any other story.

6:43You know, it's part of my identity as anything else. I want to and one other thing I want to say because I felt this a lot when I wrote my first book is that and you're going to experience experience this on such a deeper level and I'm so excited and I hope you spiritually prepare for it because so many people are going to walk up to you and be like I know you and they're going to be like they're going to think that they truly like know the everything about you in your life because you were so detailed in such a beautiful way and And it was such an offering. Yeah. I mean, I felt like I brought people in.

7:22Of course, in the later drafts, that became more necessary because I was guarded, very guarded in the first draft. So and then getting a new therapist help child in the halfway point of the process. Yes. Yeah. Because tell me, because, you know, there's this part of the book where you're talking about the ways in which in moments of life, specifically to the speech, when you gave your kind of, I would say one of your first sparks of the world seeing you in that, in that women's March speech. But when the sound was cut, that you were saying that this way that you kind of like bottled the ways in which that didn't rub you the right way, or you felt disrespected and how it was hard because that felt so natural to me.

8:09And I was like, we all have that where we're like, damn, we just put a hard shell around the place where somebody poked our softest self and how you were saying in the book that in the first process of writing this, it's almost like you had that hard shell that you had to kind of crack to get to it. And the book is such a soft read. It's so tender. And so what was the process of you being able to be like, okay, I've got to take this like armor that protects me in the world or helps me cope so that I could provide a book that was the most vulnerable possible read. Yeah, I think a lot of it was chipping away at this idea that I needed to tell a story in as pristine or as pure a way as possible.

8:57You know, I think after kind of witnessing amazing, powerful Black trans women like Laverne Cox and Janet Mott, you know, who really went through the gauntlet in terms of the early trans visibility era. So they were getting those very intrusive, prurient questions about their bodies and their lives. And I witnessed that, of course, and absorbed some of that. And so I think there was a feeling of like I have to be as articulate in a way so there's no room for anything to be misconstrued as messy or too nuanced or the rest of your humanity because we are this like jumble of like contradictions and like randomness and like you know one song we like is like so off from like the everything else we like like and that's what personality is and I think that sometimes we don't allow ourselves the aliveness of personality when we are kind of at work to say like listen I am centering this part of who I am because this part of who I am is unsafe and I am like forging the way to create community and safety not just for this massive part of who I am but for everyone else who that is such a huge part of their experience and I think it was really interesting.

10:23Like we were just saying, it's like, yes, that is centered. And then also like everything between like the boxer shorts colors you wore or the Southern-ness or the, like what the pet names your parents had. And it was beautiful. And what I found was so cool is it was such a incredible harmony to be able to constantly center like what we needed to know to continue to push forward in being an ally and lover of your life while also painting the picture of this really full human experience that we all like feel in different ways too you know which is just that like even if we want to center this one thing we're not just one thing and how we can connect is by having all of the little odds and ends of who we are present to if that makes right Yeah, I definitely think it's about looking at ourselves holistically.

11:19That was a part of the dream with the risk it takes to bloom. But also, I think it's about folks just being curious about the boxes that maybe they're still in that they don't realize they're still in and how we can kind of shatter expectations across the board. So it's not just for me as a trans person, as a Black person, as a woman. to interrogate these restrictions around us. It's for everyone. And that is so felt as you read it. At Goop, we believe the spaces we spend time in shape how we feel and how we connect. That's why we're drawn to Convene, a global hospitality brand reimagining work in meeting spaces centered around design and care.

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12:50Convene for the moments that move your business. What was the point when you felt like you were ready to tell this story? It's interesting because when I graduated from the University of Georgia back in 2013, like two months before Laverne starred in Orange is the New Black. And of course, the verdict came down in the George Zimmerman trial. We were right in the middle of kind of a shifting landscape of public and social discussion around communities on the margins. And so at that time, there weren't many narratives about Black trans folks. So it did feel important to embark on writing a story of my coming into my identity, because I mean, this was also like maybe about nine months before Janet released the groundbreaking redefining realness and so much more.

13:46But I think as I got into the hustle and bustle, of course, of work and trying to find a career, being stealth, of course, in my first job as a news reporter in small town Georgia, things were just kind of moving. And I was like, actually, I want to be present in my life and figure out who I'm going to be on the other side of these kind of difficult points in the early part of my career. So it really started to coalesce in this version in 2020. I was laid off from Out Magazine along with so many of our crew. And I had a lot of time on my hands, honey. And I really was interested not only in that journey of my womanhood, but also the journey and my commitment to collective liberation.

14:37Could you, for anyone who's going to be learning about your story in this podcast, for the first time, could you talk to us a little bit about not only your childhood, but where activism became a central role that kind of brought you, because I feel that there was this kind of really significant point where, and I feel activism almost like landed like a star in your heart. And it was like, oh, it's making the path more and more and more clear. So could you talk to us about what your childhood was like and then the point in which you know you have this turn towards how is my life going to be this thing that changes so many people's lives because it has yeah well there are a few different points that I I like to nod to I mean definitely growing up in the south in Augusta Georgia feeling isolated from other folks who were at that point, I mean, all I knew was that I was different.

15:41You know, I had no language around queer this or trans that or even gender nonconforming. But I knew I was being bullied because I was some kind of different and I was being called gay and all these things. So I think those early experiences of feeling othered in my community and with my peers really played a role. But I will say, I mean, with my parents being devout Catholics. Yeah, I was going to say the Catholicism was. Yes. The added layer for me, or I was like Catholicism. Cause like, even like in the Baptist church, I was like, it was, it's a little, it can be different to me because I feel like, I was like, damn.

16:21Like what's going on here? Like you really just, God just threw everything and was like, make it happen. But yeah, so that was happening. But of course, what I will say of the beautiful things I gleaned from Catholicism and my parents was this idea of stewardship and doing whatever you could to make the next person's life easier. And my parents were really wanted all three of us. So I have two older siblings. My brother is nine years older. My sister's 12 years older. Don't ask me about the gap, honey. They are. And they really wanted us to understand our privileges, even as, you know, black folks in the South, we were middle class.

17:05You know, we had educational privilege. There was never a thought that we wouldn't go to college and continue on and have certain careers and all of that. So that was there. But I think even beyond that, beyond the seeds of LGBTQ student activism at the University of Georgia, I really was pulled into this activism space after the death of a young trans girl to suicide. So Lila Alcorn in 2014, when she wrote a suicide letter that she set to publish on Tumblr after the act was committed, I read that letter. I was completely devastated by it. And in it, she puts a call to action for all the adults to fix society, please.

17:55And I took that personally. And I was like, oh, shoot, I'm one of the adults and especially one of the trans adults who is not out in my professional career. And I work in journalism and media. What are we doing here? And so that was a complete kind of reorienting of the type of work that I wanted to do. And so what was your first next step in that in that moment when you when you're talking about this in your book, but I think there's certain moments and you watch people collectively have it in our lifetime. People had it with the Black Lives Matter movement. There were some people that were just never the same person again after Trayvon Martin.

18:36There were some people that were never the same person again after Donald Trump got elected. Like, you know, you see these things where there are things that almost spiritually and molecularly shift you. Was the next day like, so I did something the next day or was it like I did something different the next day or was it I was a different person the next day so nothing I could do was the same? I think it was the former. I don't think I was a different person necessarily the next day. I think I just acted because of what was in my heart. And that action immediately was propping up some books, propping up my little laptop and posting a video to YouTube of me essentially sharing how I felt about what was going on, making a vow to do whatever I could to try and make things better for other trans folks, especially young trans people.

19:30and through that video lo and behold a BBC producer saw it and was like hey will you be on this show and be interviewed it was called world happier say and I was like sure and then my sister was like okay so are you coming out at work because you know what that means and I was like do I have to but I did and and luckily in that workplace that I was in this is my second workplace now, now in Atlanta, they were affirming, they thought it was a beautiful thing. And I just kept doing that, you know, not necessarily speaking up in that way, but I started going to rallies in the Atlanta community, being more involved in local efforts, particularly around the police profiling of black and brown trans women.

20:21So it wasn't that I necessarily transformed overnight, But I think this kind of idea, like you said, that kind of spark of purpose started to shine brighter. And I put myself on the path to transform in the ways that I needed to be, to be a better storyteller, to deepen my empathy, especially for my community and on and on. And you, I think, took learning and being in community more and more and more with the people you wanted to serve so seriously, which I think is lost on people sometimes. I think it was really generous of you to share the ways in which it was not just like, because I think that sometimes people are like, oh, then someone just like touch by God and then they can like, just go up and do it.

21:14And I think for you, so much of the detailing of this book is really all these ways in which you are saying like, no, this is like, I am not trying to be like a wizard behind the curtain and Oz, which I really appreciated. Yeah. I think that that's true. I mean, there's a lot that I had to interrogate in writing this book around kind of the pedestal that people put folks who emerge as activists on, you know, and folks who speak truth to power. I mean, you know this, right? That's kind of idea that we always have the right thing to say, always are able to articulate the moment or have pure politics.

21:55That's impossible. Yeah. You know, like we're always okay because we're standing there being okay. Standing there being okay, often just looking okay. Or often, you know, the soothing for a lot of us, especially women of color, is to be in the midst of the action, right? So that we don't have to wallow. I think that's something I've also witnessed a lot for us too. What I wondered about is I, one, there's one scene in the book where I felt so transported, which is when you're coming out to your dad and the stark difference between coming out to your dad versus your mom. Um, and I wondered, you know, I had that kind of moment where as my friend, I was like, are you okay sharing this?

22:46It's so vulnerable. And I, and I don't mean in a shameful way of anyone involved, you know, because it's just real and it is what it is. But I just wish that I knew you then and could have run over to your house and hugged you and been with you. And I wondered what it was like to relive some of the moments that were, you know, with your mom is it was so kind of beautiful and also seems so like exact to the personality that you portray of her throughout the entire book. But were there ever when you were writing that, and I know that you wrote this book with therapists and switching to therapists, but was it hard to kind of relive or feel exposed in that or not even just that?

23:25I mean, there's a lot of very intimate moments of the book, but that especially, I just, I wonder what it was like for you to write it? It was, I mean, it was grueling for sure. It was definitely a challenge just remembering who I was at a young age. And, and I think mostly because I really had to articulate how I moved to a place of grace for myself as a, at that time being 15 years old. and I wouldn't even say I was hot-headed because I was in the right. But I definitely had a sense of conviction that was so strong that I'm like, well, shoot, if a 15-year-old was talking to me like this so resolutely, I might feel away as an adult because we have these assumptions that we have so many more solutions or so much deeper of an analysis of what's going on.

24:25But of course, I think and remember that remembering that I'm like, oh, yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, so hopefully I can remember how I felt at that point as a young person and how I moved through the world with my nibblings and younger folks and community. But I think on the other side, it was challenging because I had to reconsider the grace I had to give my parents who were products of an environment that really gave them no tools to understand a queer or trans kid, right? All they knew is that they were supposed to protect and raise this kid, this baby that they had. And without the script for that, people moved from a place of fear.

25:13And some of the not so great aspects of our insecurities can play out. And I think that that was what was happening with my parents when I came out to my dad. But I will say, I think what's so beautiful now, of course, I mean, unfortunately, my father passed when I was 19. And so there wasn't really much room for evolution. There were some that happened along the way. But with my mom, I mean, now my mom is like the big ally on the block. She's on the board of PFLAG. flag you know she's at these different events with me including the women's march which you alluded to earlier but there's also like generations of parents of queer and trans youth now that are out here from p flag to others like the ones i was with at trans prom at the capitol and and a group of amazing trans youth put that together and said hey we want to have this space i'm thinking about Marlon Wayans and Wayne and Gabby Wade Union and these folks who have young people in their lives that they are really listening to and trying to be an example for other parents, especially in the Black community, to listen to queer and trans you.

26:32I so felt that and your mom being this kind of main character in the story too throughout, just like just really makes you smile. And I think for your book, your mom's character made me buy the book for my mom. And which I really appreciated in the ways in which you wrote about it. Not just because I do think obviously your work is timeless, but so often for memoirs, I think people feel them as a generational thing when you're young and writing a memoir and your mom, I just kept thinking like, wow, her mom, the ways in which your mom is woven through, I immediately ordered it for my mom. Cause I just, I loved the dynamic and I knew my mom, how much my mom would like it.

27:14I want to ask, you know, I know you, did you, you had your first book event last night, basically last night at the strand and the rare books room with Laverne Cox. I mean, it was packed in there. I mean, there were people from so many different parts of my life, college, one of my advisors from the LGBTQ student resource center was there for my university. Folks from Movements and then my mom and my sister were there and I have another event tomorrow that my brother is going to be here for. Is that the one in Brooklyn? Yes, that one will be at the Brooklyn Museum. Who's that with Elliot Page?

27:57With Elliot Page. The one and only. Star-studded lineup. Is there anything you've experienced so far from writing this book? Because I can't stress to all the people that I need every single person listening to this podcast to read this book, the incredible details of it's so incredibly detailed. Was there anything that was kind of, you were feeling like a little naked in the room, like having been with people who have held the book or after they read it and you were kind of like, did you have that feeling at all? Or were there certain details or certain, you know, even if they were just kind of like, you know, your mom plays the flute or you're like, you know, or you're this, or you're telling the story of, you know, the first time you felt attracted to someone.

28:43And, you know, I mean, I know that so much of your career and activism started with just you putting yourself in public and it going viral and then turning into such an incredible sensation. And are you used to it? Are you used to feeling, you know, for lack of a better word, famous, like in, in, in such an intimate, real and personal way. No, I'm not. I I'm still struggling with this idea of, I guess, fame and celebrity. Like, I can't even say it. I guess, fame and celebrity. You are a famous celebrity. I hate to break it to you. It's a lot of things. It's weird because I'm coming from two disciplines where that isn't the goal, right?

29:32So journalism, of course, you know, you're what we're not supposed to be the story, right? So to turn that on its head throughout my career has been a bit of a dance. And then I think similarly in social justice spaces, I'm very aware that we often have these leaders, which we dub charismatic leaders, right? But there are ways that folks like me, I guess, soak up the air, you know, from other folks. So it's always been important to me to elevate the folks who got me here. And so I think about my Atlanta queer and trans community. I think about my dear sister friend, Toni Michelle Williams, from a chapter where she essentially throws my saviorism like right there in my face.

30:20And it's like, girl, You got to figure out this shit so we can move forward and you can be a better organizer. So that's a thing. I'm thinking about the folks I worked with at Trans Law Center on the Brooklyn Liberation March. I mean, it's a community affair and I don't take that lightly. And so that's so important. So the fame, the celebrity, the visibility piece is weird to me. I mean, to say the least. I think you move through it with a lot of grace, especially because you're, I feel from knowing you personally that it always feels to me that you say, if this is what it takes to be in the greatest possible service, then like, I'll hold it and I'll handle it and I'll just keep going.

31:08And so I think that that's a really beautiful and important headspace to be in, especially in the kind of activist world where kind of fame happens or these things happen and people really do, you know, get, you know, caught up in like, I'm a celebrity because I'm special. And you're like, the world calls you that. Like, you don't call yourself that. So if the world's going to do that, like, how do I turn this into a tool and allow it to be a tool for my movement? And I've always felt that you're so incredibly grounded in that. I try to be. I try to be. I try to show up for our community, you know, when folks are making strides in art, when other folks are making strides in literature like Gina Rossero and Skylar Baylor and Elliot Page.

31:56You know, there's been so many amazing books by powerful trans folks that come out this year. And luckily I've been a part of a bit and piece of each of their journeys. So that's been exciting too. How have you stayed close to yourself and kind of given yourself care in this process? Do you have things you kind of do so that you can reground yourself and, and, and, and kind of put yourself in a position where you're the loudest voice in your head is yourself? Well, I'm definitely a car napper. so I love look I love napping on the way to an event it's the best oh my god that is the funniest thing I've ever heard so that is a thing for me I love a good massage whenever I can get it and that's amazing for me I love CrossFit so going to CrossFit I get to walk back and forth gives me a chance to clear my head, but also getting, becoming a regular in CrossFit really primes me for the, I guess the stamina and endurance necessary to finish a book length work because so much of it is about the practice and the push, right.