Tig Notaro on Grief, Comedy, and Life After Loss

29:36Gwyneth Paltrow:Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was a few days. Oh, very close. Listen, I was devastated. I was deathly ill from all of my diseases. And so it wasn't, it wasn't, I mean, my pant, I had to like use my, my finger to hook on my belt loop. My, I was, I was, I had lost nearly 20 pounds. It was a rough time. And so, again, like Andrea was able to so quickly go from sort of shock to metabolized, but you seem to be kind of in that same vein, but also working it out. Like, how did you decide, okay, I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I need a bilateral mastectomy. I'm going to a comedy club. Well, I had called Flanagan, the owner of Largo here in Los Angeles, and I said, hey, and he knew everything that I had gone through, including also I went through a breakup.

30:42This was all in a four month period of time. So I was feeling very much like I've lost everything, which of course I hadn't. I still had family and friends and I was working, but had health insurance. So I know I had, I still had things that people don't, but it felt like I had lost everything. And so I was just so confused and devastated. And I called him and I said, Hey, that was my final blow was after pneumonia, the C diff, the intestinal disease, pneumonia, my mother dying. Then I got the cancer diagnosis and my breakup, all of that. And I said, I can't, I don't think I can do my show. That was already on the books.

31:33And he said, why don't we keep it on the books? And you can cancel one second before you walk on stage. And I was thinking like, this guy is not hearing me. And I had known him for a long time. I have a monthly show there, you know, and I'm thinking, why would I want to go on stage? And then I had those days before my diagnosis to leading up to the show. And then I thought, man, I love doing standup comedy. And I had seen how quickly life slips away. You know, I saw my mother go. I saw my health go. I saw my relationship go. And I just thought, what if I never get to perform again? So I thought I'm going to keep it on the books.

32:29And I started writing like crazy. I was, and I am not a comedian that writes things down. I just get an idea and I'm like, oh, that'll be funny. I'll just talk that through on stage and see what I can come up with. With this, I was like bringing my laptop everywhere. I was taking notes. I was like, oh my, I was so inspired. And then I thought, well, I'm going to try this out. So right before, my biggest hurdle was how was I going to get into this material? And so I was taking a shower before the show. And this thought, thankfully, ran through my mind. I was like, what if I went on stage, like I was saying, I was delivering this news in the same tone as like, hey, good evening.

33:19Are there any birthdays tonight? Everyone having a good time? And it made me laugh maniacally. And I was like, oh my god, I can't do that. That's so crazy. And then I thought, that's going to seem disrespectful to people that have cancer. And then I was like, wait, I have cancer. I was like, this is me. I'm going to do it. And so that's how I got into it. I walked out. I was like, good evening. Hi, how's everyone doing? I have cancer. How are you? And so that's what happened.

34:00Gwyneth Paltrow:Oh, my God. What's but what's so like, of course, it's I mean, you always you have such a like hyper unique tone. And but what's so amazing about that is like the way that you're able to rattle people's mind and hearts at the same time. And like, I mean, I was watching that going, what am I supposed to think and feel right now? And laughing and like also, you know. But that's the best is like, and it took the audience a while because people were stunned and confused and other people were laughing, thinking this is TIG's doing a funny bit right now. And then once it got real and they understood all of these things really did just happen.

34:55And then people were also crying in the audience. It was like nothing I had ever obviously experienced. I still have never experienced again and probably won't, hopefully. Oh, my God. Yeah, no. No, no.

35:09Gwyneth Paltrow:Let's be done with that. Yeah, we're done with that. But did you, was it incredibly healing? Like, were you sort of like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I, but it feels really good. Like, what was, what was it like to go through that as you were taught, as you were doing your set? Well, that's the exciting, scary thing about comedy, especially because I hadn't tried it out on stage before. It's not like I went to open mics and tried out I Have Cancer. So that's the fun is the risk is that it's like this has to either pay off or I'm going to bomb in front of a sold out venue and then just go away and die quietly.

35:58And that'll be my last performance. People will be like, yeah, I was there. It was awkward.

36:05Gwyneth Paltrow:But you're kind of you're the master of the awkward. It's like you can kind of just ride that edge in a way that I don't know, nobody else can. I mean, it's very masterful. We have my mother to thank for that. But yeah, I love awkwardness. I love examining a situation and being like, I don't know what's happening either. Like, let's go in here. So I knew it, you know, like any comedy show, it could go either way. and I really, I didn't know, but I remember at one point I thought, wow, these people are totally with me and I couldn't believe it. And this guy stood up. I don't know if he stood up, I might be making it more dramatic than it is, but he yelled out and he said, this is fucking incredible.

37:00And like yelled, like, don't stop. And the whole place erupted into like, yeah, And I was like, oh, my God, I got it's working. And in a weird twist, the producer of Andrea's documentary, Jessica Hargrave, she was the road manager, tour manager of one of Sarah Silverman's bus tours years ago. And Sarah had hired me to open for her. And so I got that's how I met Jessica. And then when we had so much fun on that tour, we really connected, Jess and I. And so after we got back, she bought tickets to go see me at Largo, but she got sick. And then she told her best friend, who is Ryan, the director, she said, I just hung out with this comedian.

37:59She's so funny. You should go see her. I can't make it. Here are my tickets. And he was like, well, I guess I'll just invite all my gay guy friends and we'll go. And that was the night I said I had cancer. He was at that show. So that is like a crazy full circle that happened.

38:18Gwyneth Paltrow:Wow. Yeah, it's wild. That's really serendipitous and bizarre. Well, and how funny that Jess is like, oh my God, she's so funny. Go see her. And then Ryan's sitting there and I'm like, I have cancer. My mother tripped and died and I can't eat food. And my girlfriend and I broke up. Who's with me, girls? So he was truly like, what the hell is happening? And he told his friends, apparently she's really funny. Yeah. So how much is your comedy, how much do you use it as a tool to kind of chew through all of that stuff during that phase? You know how sometimes you hear about artists, they're producing, you know, it's poets, it's songwriters, I imagine comedians.

39:08Gwyneth Paltrow:It's like how you're – but some comedians don't necessarily talk about their own stuff or their own real problems. You know, it's observational or whatever. Like this was so incredibly personal. Had that always been your approach? And is that like a modality for you to heal? I was very much, I mean, I've gone through so many different versions of myself as a comedian. I used to do like very just deadpan one liners. I was so nervous to be up there. And then I started telling longer jokes and then stories and just kind of allowed myself to shift because I realized my voice is still in me like who i am so no matter if i do one-liners or announce that i have cancer it's still gonna be me but once once i did that show at largo that was so unusual for me because i was normally like oh my gosh this guy came up and said this weird thing to me and then I break that down and analyze it and whatever.

40:19But with this, I had never, ever gone this personal. And it just really cracked me open. I don't even know who I was before 2012. I truly mean that with every fiber of my being, that it changed me so, so deeply. But I'm also So coming back around in this way of like, it was so cathartic to be so personal and open. But now I'm also like, I don't have to share everything. I'm not really in that phase of life on that deep of a level that I, because I, you know, I can point people to, I wrote a book, I have a standup special, I have a documentary, I had a TV show about that. my diagnosis. I have all of these different things that you can access.

41:15And I have to always remember, I need to be happy and having fun on stage and doing what I want to do for the audience to enjoy the show. But it was so therapeutic. And it was so therapeutic for me also as just a person wandering around this planet because I remember my friend Lake Bell, she brought me home from the hospital and, you know, I didn't have my girlfriend. I didn't have my mother. I didn't have the immediate people that I would have reached out to, to help me go through this time. And, And and my my two close other close friends, they were like, well, we're going to stay. I had a loft in downtown Los Angeles, just a one bedroom loft at the time.

42:08And and they were like, we're going to stay here with you because I couldn't lift my arms. I couldn't I couldn't do anything. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm OK. You guys, everybody can go. And they were like, Tig, you know, I had to like drain blood from my. incisions. I had to sorry to be graphic. But like, no, this is it. It was a I was not in good shape. And I was also struggling to eat. And they were just laughing at me like, what do you what you Yeah, later planet are we just gonna be like, Okay, cool. She said she's good. All right, let's go. My meters running out. And and so it was a real crack open, where I started accepting help.

42:57And then I also started to realize I want to help other people. I want to be, I just, whatever, I'm rambling, but it really woke me up as a comedian, as a person, as a stranger to others, as so many, a parent, a spouse, a friend. I just, I just am a different person.

43:27Gwyneth Paltrow:Amazing. I mean, I, I do, I see, it's just, I see it. It's, it's such a, it's such a gift when we traverse through these really difficult things. If we, if we let the magic part of the hardest thing do its work. Like it's just, it, it, it is life-changing. I have so many friends who've gone through similar things and not necessarily all cancer, but there's always, there's always a reckoning. And I think if you come out of the, come out the other side, more open, more knowing yourself better, you know, with a softer approach towards yourself and life, it's, it's, it's amazing to see actually, you know, that there are benefits of going through something so hard.

44:15Gwyneth Paltrow:I mean, yours was really extra that year is, that was really, it was tough, but it's also like, you know, people come up to me and they're like, I went through this and they're like, but it wasn't as bad as yours. I don't feel that way. I mean, I feel like that is bad, you know, whatever your version is and whatever you have gotten used to in life or haven't gotten used to I'm not walking around thinking I went through the worst thing ever I know I went through a really rough time yeah but like also with Andrea what Andrea would say is like don't wait for that kind of diagnosis to start living your life and and what I hope this movie does is act as a replacement for that to in hopes that you don't have to go through that but you can see how

45:18just yeah just you you don't it's hard to tell people to wake up when they don't really have a reason to or but but let this movie be a replacement for a horrible diagnosis and but But it's beautiful. It is so joyful too. It's as Andrea's poem called The Little Things, if you recall, when Andrea's finding that joy and feeding the squirrels and mending a friend's clothing with their grandmother's thimble. It's so beautiful. And it's such an incredible reminder. and their words stay with me and guide me on a daily basis. And that's when I'm even cold, like shivering cold, I think Andrea would give anything in the world to be as cold as I am right now.

46:24You know? It reminds me of that poem that they wrote,

46:29Gwyneth Paltrow:how the worst day of my life became the best. And actually, there's a line in it where they say, by nighttime, I was intimate with the difference between tying my laces and tuning the string section of my shoes, made a symphony of walking away from everything that did not want my life to sing, felt a love for myself so consistent metronomes tried to copyright my heartbeat

47:07Gwyneth Paltrow:yeah beautiful you know and I'm also so grateful to you for the documentary because I became such a fan of her poetry through the documentary and in the wake of watching the documentary, you know, and her work is so incredible, incredible, and so resonant and so helpful. It's like, when a poem is a good poem, it's like going to church, you know, like does it's, it's that I mean, they were so brilliant at just getting right underneath and in and just, you know, like blowing your soul open. Well, I remember when Stephen Colbert, he moderated a panel for the film in New York, and he referenced a line in one of Andrea's poems that says, and it's talking about when Andrea woke up from surgery and Meg had to tell Andrea some really heavy news.

48:10And I don't know if I can quote it perfectly, but the idea is, Andrea says, you know, if people think poetry is frivolous, then they've never had to have somebody tell them unspeakably hard news beautifully. Stephen said at the panel, he said, I think that's what this movie does also. is relay that same message so beautifully. And one of my favorite things Andrea would say is, what kind of poet would I be if I could only make life beautiful on the page? And I also think, I love that so much. And I also think that's exactly what this movie does is make life beautiful beyond the page.

49:04Gwyneth Paltrow:It does.

49:15Gwyneth Paltrow:is is meg okay i after i watched the movie i kept thinking man i hope she's okay meg is such a freak of nature it's been so interesting to be on a press tour for this i mean i'm used to going on Colbert or, you know, Conan or Drew Barrymore and just doing stupid bits and having fun. And then I show up and I'm like crying on Colbert. And I, it's so, and I'm like also simultaneously promoting this new Star Trek series I've been on. So like one interview, I'll be talking about outer space and the other one I'm like, oh, and when I was with my friend in their last few days of life. And then I'm crying about poetry and death.

50:01But somebody said to Meg, what's it like being on a press tour in the middle of all this grief? And Meg said, oh, am I on a press tour? She said, I didn't even know I was on a press tour. She said, She referenced that idea of a person dies twice, once when they actually leave their body or this planet, and the second time is when the last person speaks their name. And Meg said, I just feel like I've been having this incredible opportunity to talk about Andrea every day of my life and share their work with everybody. and in fact Meg listen there's a lot of grief in there but this is also a tremendous poet and remarkable human being and when people ask Meg how she's doing she with Andrea's death Meg refers to it as Andrea's alleged passing because she said that she just feels Andrea in every space of this life and world and planet.

51:25And when she goes to bed, she said she asks Andrea to put their arms around her. And she says she feels Andrea and goes right to sleep. But she's she's I think like anybody going through heavy grief it sneaks up on you in in ways even for myself doing these talk shows I've been surprised at the pre-interviews when a producer is just asking me questions and then I've burst into tears and I'm like I'm so sorry I'm when When they asked me on Colbert, would you want to read one of Andrea's poems? I immediately started crying. I was not prepared for that question. And I thought I was finally prepared to go on and do it.

52:20And Stephen, who normally comes over during the commercial break to just be funny and connect with me, that day he came over and he just grabbed my hands. and looked me in the eyes and he said, I love you so much. And then my emotions jump back up to here. I sit down and then he says, do you want to read one of Andrea's poems? And I was like, sure. And then I'm reading it and I could not finish it. And I ended on like swing set and then I start crying and and then and then I couldn't talk because I was crying and then the crowd starts clapping and I was like no that's not the end of this poem and I was so upset I thought I had like botched the mission and I called Meg right after and I was like I was like I cried on Colbert and she was like you know what the moment she said first of all that's exactly what Andrea would have wanted and she said second of all you know the part in the documentary when Andrea says I feel like my death is going to make my loved ones more of who they are.

53:46Meg said, I always hated that because I thought losing you will never make anything better or anyone better. And I told Meg, I said, I never understood what that even meant. I was like, why? I don't even get it. I'm not smart enough i don't know what that means and then meg said but you reading andrea's poem on colbert and crying was you becoming more of who you are and so i was i was a little hard on myself because i wanted everyone to hear andrea's words so that's incredible what that's who meg is that's who Meg is. That's how Meg is doing. There is grief, but there is so much depth and joy and love.

54:47And she's really remarkable. She's so talented and smart and...

54:54Gwyneth Paltrow:And quite pragmatic. I mean, I only know her through the documentary, but I was struck by her pragmatism, by her, you know, real center, you know, I was like, wow, she just seems like a very special person who really knows herself. And she is, and I think more than anything, open to getting to know herself even more. And I think that's why these two people made such great documentary subjects because they are, Ryan said he's never, he's made 15, he and Jess have made 15 documentaries. They are childhood best friends. He said, this is the first film we've made where our subjects never asked us, how are you framing me?

55:52What is the story we're telling? they had no questions and that is solely what I would blame on true artists trusting true artists and and what came out the other side was they did not hold back they were they were all in all in and they really trusted their director that's extraordinarily brave but our real artists

56:22Gwyneth Paltrow:trusting real artists. I mean, that's, you said it perfectly because I think when you know you're in good hands, I mean, it's the same thing in a, in a film, when you know, you're in good hands, you know, that you're free to explore the truth of whatever, and you're not gonna, you don't need to contract and protect yourself, you know? No, my gosh. They, that's what he, he said that he and Jess looked at each other when they first started rolling like Kent like this is the first this is again the dinner scene that was the first day of production crazy I can't believe that was the first day that was the first day and he said that every day they shot could have been a full documentary on its own and and Meg has started to release clips on her Instagram that Bernice, the editor, had so thoughtfully and so kind to edit these beautiful clips that didn't make it into the documentary and send as a gift to Meg.

57:34I want to ask you just briefly about Abby and Glennon, because I adore them.

57:41Gwyneth Paltrow:They're friends of mine as well abby wombeck and glenn and doyle of course how did they become involved in the in the documentary well i knew based on the fact that they had interviewed andrea that they were fans and they were you friends with them at this point yeah not like i mean this documentary We all went in friendly or close on some level and we came out like family. I mean, beyond. And I always say there's always some weirdo rattling around in a production. That was not the case on this film. It was extraordinary how how much people really stuck to. this has to be led by only love and that really really was the case but glennon and abby i just thought they felt like who i should call first because they really were leading with we're fans we are big fans of this poet and and i texted them at like 7 30 and I said, hey, I'm working on a, because Ryan and Jess said, we're going to just pay out of pocket until we can find some financial backing.

59:16And so I reached out without telling anybody. I just sent them a text and said, I'm working on this project about Andrea Gibson. Would you want to chat about potentially being a part of it? I thought they were going to say, yeah, sure. Let's set a call for next week. Or they sent me a Zoom link within maybe a minute or two. And I was like, oh, wow. OK. And I got on my computer and I was not expecting people to work as fast as I did. And so I'm on this Zoom with them and I tell them what's going on. And I gave them a rough estimate of what I had been told was needed to make the budget was needed for to make it.

1:00:10And and they said, oh, my gosh, this is so yeah, we're very interested. We need to talk to our accountants and business managers, whoever, and we'll get back to you. And I was like, great. And we get off the Zoom. I pride myself on not exaggerating Gwyneth. 30 seconds later, I got a text from them. We're in for half a million. And I was like, what? Like, they clearly didn't need to talk to their accountants. They just looked at what should we do? How much? And the fact that I got to call Ryan and Jess and be like, Glennon and Abby are in for half a million. And then it was just game on. And I just, you know, obviously I know people with some cash, but, but it's like this, I have to know that you're going to be behind this, this, you know, yeah.

1:01:11Like you have to really understand this is again non-binary poet stage four cancer um right yeah yeah it's i just i i've really i never at any point felt like there was a bad apple but i was like this has to be led with love. This is an old friend in a very tricky, difficult situation. And what was so beautiful too was the crew was so tiny, so tiny because it was a documentary, but also you couldn't have a lot of people because this person was so ill. And, but even after the film wrapped the cinematographer the sound guy people continued to fly out to go visit meg and andrea you're kidding me no i'm not it that's that's where look i've been on tv shows and films where people are like and we became a family and i'm telling you the this was like This was tight.

1:02:27This was tight. Wow.

1:02:30Gwyneth Paltrow:Well, you know, it doesn't surprise me just having watched it and feeling part of something. I think when you watch this beautiful documentary, you feel brought into it. You feel immediately so close to even though it's, which is so strange, but you feel, you feel a part of it. You know, you feel a part of of Andrea's journey and Meg's journey. And it is so deeply inspiring and moving beyond anything I've really seen recently, I have to say. So just a huge congratulations to you. And this Oscar nomination is deserved. I think it's just it's so extraordinary. And I hope everybody sees it. It's on Apple TV.

1:03:16You can just buy it there or download it there.

1:03:20Gwyneth Paltrow:It's it's so worth the time. Well, I so appreciate and it just means so much to me. I, I, it of course means so much when anybody loves the film, but if I know someone personally and they're so moved, it just elevates it beyond, beyond. Well, you've made, you've made a significant contribution to culture with it. You know, it's, it's, it's really hard to do. So congratulations.

1:03:55Gwyneth Paltrow:Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.