Venus Williams on Presence Over Perfection

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3:14I recently had the honor of talking to Venus Williams on the heels of the French Open. It was interesting to hear her perspective on competition and to learn more about where her drive comes from. I love the stories she told me about her childhood and the values that her parents instilled in her at such a young age. And I had a lot of business questions for Venus about her many ventures, which include an interior design firm, lifestyle and activewear brand, personal care products, and even a plant-based protein company. I'm excited for you to hear what she had to say.

3:49I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. You're so incredibly inspirational and amazing. And you need, I think, very little by way of introduction, especially in terms of your incredible tennis career. You're an iconoclast. You've broken all these boundaries. And you also are a fashion icon on the court, which I love. And you started breaking the rules there. You're kind of a punk rock rule breaker, which I love about you from afar. And then now you've parlayed your incredible strength and your platform into doing all of these super cool businesses. And that's what's really fascinating to me because I guess I did a similar thing, right?

4:30I had one career and then I had a really hard time kind of giving myself permission to start this business when I started it, you know, 13 years ago. And did you feel like you had the permission and the latitude to just kind of pursue all of these different interests? Did you feel at any point, like, I don't know, trepidation about doing it? Or were you just like, you felt like I'm just going into all these things? Yeah, I kind of had a different upbringing. My parents encouraged us to be more than just athletes because we started young. I started at four and now I'm 40. So I'm going on 30 years of this.

5:12So they encouraged us to know what we were, who we were off of the court. And how did they do that? Might get your education, have good grades. And my dad really wanted us to be entrepreneurs and we would be writing to the tennis or tournaments or wherever. And he would put in like this tape and it was about foreclosures. I was like 10 years old. He had high expectations and I don't know how to do a foreclosure to this day, But just this thinking, you know, of how to think outside the box and think for yourself. So, yeah, definitely. But my parents empowered us to like be be those kind of women.

5:52What were the other tools that they implemented to get you to really connect with yourself or understand yourself? Yeah, just everything. I think about that now because Serena has a daughter. And I think about how my parents made a lesson out of everything, you know, and yeah, my dad, my dad said growing up, always have an answer, even if it's the wrong answer. So we grew up always having to have an answer and it helps you to think on your feet. It helps you to, you know, be able to adjust no matter the situation. Did he have any particular pearls of wisdom that you always remember? yeah absolutely he was oh my gosh so many one of my favorites it's a slow walker is a slow thinker so we weren't allowed to walk slow we had i agree with him right right i agree slow walker slow talker slow thinker and so now to this day it annoys me when someone walks slow you know you got to walk fast you got to have a purpose you know and i think that makes sense though because when you start with, you know, a physical presence that will also go to your mind as well.

7:05So that one's interesting. He had a lot of them, but that was one. I like that one. I think slow driver too. Can I add that to the list? I might, you might hate me. I don't drive too fast. I grew up in New York city and I drive like a taxi driver. I've never driven the city. I'd never want to. I wouldn't recommend it actually. Okay. So you've driven in the city before. Oh, yeah. I learned how to, I cut my teeth driving in New York City. My friends say I drive like a maniac. I think I'm a great driver. You think you can handle like the driving in Paris, like around like the Arc de Triomphe or in Rome where it's really crazy?

7:44Definitely. I've done it. I've done it. I lived in London for years, like 12 years or something like that. I drove in London on the wrong side of the road. I had a Vespa. Whenever I go to Europe, I rent a car. I bomb around all over the place. Oh, my gosh. One time we were driving in Wimbledon. We had a car and we could drive ourselves to Wimbledon. And Selena, she hit the curb and we had a flat. And we had a double match. And we didn't know what to do. We had a match. We're like, what do we do? And we had to figure that situation out quick because you can't just not show up to the match. So that was, that was interesting.

8:22She's never driven again since that time on LeBron, like in Australia or London, she won't, she killed it for her. Oh my God. That's so great. How fun though, to be able to be with your sister. I was thinking, I don't have a sister. I have a brother who I, whom I adore, but I was thinking about this, like how fun for you to be able to go through life. I mean, I imagine, I don't know, maybe it's a real pain in the ass, but is it amazing to go through a career with a sister? It is. And I can't imagine doing it without her because that's all I know. And then when I look at a different perspective that every other, most other athletes, they do do it alone, but I've never had to do this alone.

9:06And especially in an individual sport, you are alone. You walk out there and that's it. You know, you can't have someone get in, you can't sit on the bench for a second. so it it is amazing to be able to have walked you know the same road with her and I know people you know they always ask you like what's it like to beat your sister and what's it like to lose to your sister but I just wonder if like there's because I imagine you love your sister and so much and it almost sounds like the way you describe it almost as if you're twins like going through something together, you know? And so is there like anything particularly more vulnerable, do you think about losing or winning to someone that you love?

9:52Like it's, it, does it feel more vulnerable when you win or lose to her than someone who's a stranger? Yeah, actually, because no matter what happens on the court, soon as my sister. So the match is just the match. But for with me, when I play other people, it's not just a match. It's like, I lost? What? I can't, you know, you know, it just becomes personal. Whereas with her, it actually doesn't become personal because that's my sister. So we go to court, we would go and then off of the court and that's over. And oftentimes we've like played each other in a final and then have to like, get ready for a doubles final the same day.

10:30And like two hours later, we're walking on court to play like that final, you know, we've done them many times. So, yeah. So this drive that you describe and have, which I also see manifest across your many businesses, like, I'm always curious about people who have drive like that. I always try to help myself understand this, but where do you think drive like that comes from? Like that singularity of focus with that level of like ambition and heat behind it. Is it, do you think it comes from like sadness somewhere or it's just like your constitution or the way that your parents raised you to play with that mindset?

11:13I would say for me, it comes from a place of giving because I feel like I have something to give. So that drives me. Yeah. If I feel like I have nothing to give, then I'm not driven. So on the court, off of the court, the things that I pursue is because I feel like I have something to give to it. And then in that sense, it also gives something to me. So I think tennis has given me so much more than I've given tennis, you know? I don't think that's true with all the like pay equality work you've done. And I think you've done a lot. Well, I guess it's been, you know, symbiote, you know, we've gone hand in hand together with that.

11:53But yeah. So I think the day when I don't have anything left to give, that's when I know I have to move on, but that's what drives me. Right. And you don't want to wake up with no regrets and waking up with no regrets for me doesn't mean that you never failed. It just means you gave everything, even on those times you failed. And that is something you can be proud of. Or that like you've, it doesn't mean that you've never done anything that you would do differently or that, you know, like you could still feel bad about something that you've done, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you regret it.

12:24For me anyway, those things that I look back on and I feel like I wish that had been different, I wouldn't change it still. Even if I get like a pang of shame or guilt or whatever, because I feel like the recognition of those things then become a building block and you can shape who you are from those things. Absolutely. Learning from it. Some things you sometimes you just don't know until you learn it or have those experiences. And it's part of growing up. And I think in a way, we're never done growing up. If you're done learning, then where are you in life? So I absolutely agree with that.

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13:42I wanted to ask you because when Naomi Osaka the other day, she said she withdrew because she didn't want to talk to the press. I thought your response, which kind of went viral, was so great. And so both protective of her and so strong in your own framework of how you deal with stuff. I don't think that people fully understand the energy exchange that the press on that level, how much they can take from a public figure. I know that there's, of course, the argument that, well, without the media, you know, a public figure can't have then the impact that they have, which I totally understand. But when the press wants something out of you, like it's an energetic exchange, right?

14:28Like you can feel really depleted from it. And there's can be a ton of negativity when you read or saw that she had done that. What was your feeling about that? I honestly I was proud of her doing what she needed to do for herself and as a young person or as a person who is in demand or popular it can people can want a lot of things from you and you can fail to take care of yourself and I learned early on to only do the things that I wanted to do and it doesn't mean that you don't always do the things you don't want to do I have to plank every day. I hate planking, but you know, but you know what I mean?

15:08Like you can get pushed into situations that you didn't. Yeah. So you're creating boundaries. That's the word. Thank you. So I was really proud of her for standing up for herself and recognizing that, Hey, I have to take care of me. Lots of people are asking things from me that I can't give. So she took that moment. I was proud of her for that. And yeah, press can really tear you down. I don't read anything about myself ever. Me neither. Because you're just one person and then there's all these other people and you can't deal with all those opinions no matter how strong a person you are. I don't think it's possible and I feel like I'm a pretty strong person.

15:50I can't deal with it. So you just have to just, yeah, I think they say that some people argue, yes, press is a part of it. But at the same time, as a young kid, you're out there training to win a tournament. you're not necessarily training to go you know win press or be famous I mean for me personally as an athlete I wanted to win I wasn't going to go you know have fanfare so there's definitely two sides to it and you have been in the media since you were so young like there's been so much focus on you how did you learn over time to create those boundaries for yourself or how did you learn to not let that theater of public opinion seep in?

16:38I think definitely mom and dad again, they encourage us never read anything about yourself. So that way you can avoid the issues before it even gets there. Just knowing who you are, you really have to know who you are, because if you don't, it's going to be out for a wild ride. So I think our parents helped us to know who we were. They encouraged to be strong, confident, know yourself, know your history, all those different things help you to be firmly planted. And also to have a belief system and have some values. If you don't have any values, then you might do anything and you might believe anything.

17:15So I think just having that strong set of values, that are strong spiritual background, all that stuff like kept my feet on the ground. You know, myself, Serena, my family, an opportunity to just kind of be calm in the storm. Right. I'm just wondering as a parent, like how, what are the things that you say to a kid so that they are not emulating you or taking on your value system or what you think is right and wrong, but like how are, how can you encourage a child to really look inward and create their own value system? I don't know about that because my parents gave me my value system and I'm just like them.

17:58I love it. So it worked for me. Their value system resonated with you. Yeah. And I think, you know, as a young person, you need, you need a strong start. You got to know, you got to have some, some sort of values. And then later on, if you decide to make your own, you know, freebie to it, but yeah, their value system really helped me and I stuck to it. So, you know, I think every kid's got to make their choice at some point. And I think also you were asking, how do you know how to, whether that is kind of just encouraging your kids to telling them they're great without, you know, making them, you know, big headed or anything like praise them, encourage them with things that they do well.

18:42And it starts to make them feel good about themselves too. And I got a lot of that. I still get that with my dad. He comes on the court, still picks up balls and, you know, he says, you're doing great. You really did that well. And, you know, there's just been different moments in my life where I thought maybe I wasn't doing great. And there was always just this cheerleader behind me telling me when I wasn't, you know, obviously when I wasn't doing my best or needed some corrections, but also you're also doing well. And I think that's important for parents to do, to find that balance. For sure.

19:15And, you know, it's interesting for me as a parent to talk to you because your parents raised two such incredibly successful, amazing women. And I'd actually, I actually need to get your dad on my podcast so I can have a parenting interview with him. Oh my God. Well, we could get my mom out here. She is, she is something because she, she said you have to have mental training too, as a kid and you have to train your mind. So how did they do that? I, I didn't, I just heard her say that last year. So why didn't, she never told me she was giving me mental training, but you train your mind also to be ready to deal with what's happening in the world.

19:56Life is beautiful, but it can be challenging. Right. And if you don't have your mind ready to face those challenges, it might be a problem. So she also said that mental training is important for kids too. And I guess it's, you can do that in each lesson without telling them because I sure didn't know she was mentally I was drinking Kool-Aid without knowing it. I need her to write this manual or I need to get her on this podcast. What do you think has kept you persevering the way that you have, you know, through all these years of tennis and injuries and successes and failures and, you know, like this incredible career.

20:36and you just, I mean, you said you're 40 and you're still like doing all these big tournaments. I mean, it's pretty amazing. You know, it's an opportunity. That's how I see it. I love what I do. It's a lot of fun. I love the challenge that comes with it. I think in life, if you have the opportunity to find something you love and that challenges you, it's the most beautiful thing. So I always encourage people to do that because it's like, it's just like falling in love every day. You get to do something that just makes you so happy. And I love that part. So I absolutely love that. I feel like I was meant to play tennis.

21:14I'm a big girl. You can't see this, but I'm 6 '1". I have ridiculously long arms. I needed to play a sport. So I'm fortunate I get to do this. And there's only, you know, at the French Open, there's a hundred people that get to play that. And there's so many millions that would love to be in that position. And when I see, sometimes I think, wow, I get to do this, you know? And you're like, it's surreal at times. Of course, you deserve to be there because you put in the work. But at the same time, it's just so surreal. How lucky am I that everything worked out that I get to be here at this moment and kind of try to take that gratitude on the court with you?

21:52I think a lot of people get when they've been doing something for a long time and there's a grind aspect. you know, if you're not coming from a place of gratitude of like the drag of whatever. And it's just so nice to hear that, especially because you also have, I was reading that you have an autoimmune condition and you've managed to still succeed at this level. Will you tell me a little bit about it? Well, it's called Sjogren's and it's an autoimmune disease. And it's, you know, some of the hallmark symptoms are dry eye and dry mouth, but also joint pain, fatigue, and all sorts of other things that can come with it.

22:30You know, all autoimmune diseases, like there, no one's the same. Everyone kind of has different symptoms. So that's definitely a challenge because it's not something that goes away. It's something I have to manage on a daily basis, but I try to manage it my best through, through my health, health and my diet and how I treat myself, getting enough rest. Once I got diagnosed, I really, I had to slow down for me because I used to like to work until like two or three in the morning. Like I can't do that anymore. I have to go to bed early. So there were, there were changes I had to make in my life.

23:00And to be honest, I feel like I'm still learning about it and how to, how to protect it. And so how like reached my optimum with, you know, a condition that like takes you down, like how to bring yourself back up. How old were you when you received the diagnosis? I was 31 when, when I had that diagnosed. But for me, and that's another thing with autoimmune disease, a lot of times people aren't diagnosed. I had to get to a point where I was so ill that I couldn't play anymore that I finally got a diagnosis. So you have to definitely be your, your own best advocate as a patient. That's for sure.

23:36And I was wondering if, cause I think there are just across autoimmune, there are certain things that you can do from a lifestyle perspective, which really help, right. and you just touched on those. So could you tell me a little bit about how you manage it, like specifically with your diet? Let's start there. Yes. So specifically with the diet, I find that a gluten-free diet really helps, especially with joint pain. I find if I can get myself to stay off gluten, I'm honest about my life. I am not perfect. I have ups, I have downs and I have rounds. Especially if you're in Paris, like you got to have a croissant in the fridge toast here it's about to so yeah i i getting rid of joint pain really going gluten-free really helped simple things getting enough sleep helped a lot if you do not get enough sleep if you wear yourself in the ground you're going to get a flare-up you're going to not be able to be your best i find iron works a lot sometimes we have this constant inflammation it works you know or autoimmune disease, you can have low iron levels, which also contributes to not feeling well.

24:45I have that too. Yeah. Your iron up helps a lot. Sugar-free, I think helps too, unfortunate, which is a sad, sad thing, honestly. What about alcohol? Alcohol's okay.

25:01I need your nutritionist number. What the fuck? two thumbs up to alcohol. I mean, I have my splurges. I don't drink often, but I love my champagnes and I love my wines nowadays. And so I, when I have an opportunity, you just, you do have to live sub. I think when you're really clean, like it can, it can make you feel bad if you stay off of it, but I think we all have to find that balance. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And do you have any like specific supplementation or anything that you take besides iron? Yes. Definitely paying attention to your gut health. Yes. For me, some of my favorites are glutamine for that.

25:45Also what's another glutathione. It's other different things, adaptogens, you know, mushroom complexes. Also magnesium can be really important as well as vitamin D. Yeah. I have some different things that I do. And then, and, and what about, are you eat, do you eat dairy? Do you eat meat? Are you more plant-based because you have it, don't you have a plant-based protein, protein, right? Happy Viking. Yes. Happy Viking. Tell me about that. Well, it's about, you know, bringing out your inner warrior, but for your wellbeing and for your own health, you know, a lot of times we don't always put our health first.

26:24So it's about fueling that. And it's just the most amazing thing because it's not just for like your body, but it's also for your mind. So it kind of has the complete body, mind, macronutrients. And so it has DHA, omega, sunflower oil and fiber, and then all the nine amino acids that are for protein synthesis and nutrient absorption. That's a sentence. So it's your repair and recovery. So it's, it's kind of, it's for your mind and it's also for your body because you have to treat both. Right. So I really, really love the triple chocolate I'm traveling with. Like, yeah. What kind of protein is it?