Why Friendship Might Be Your Most Important Relationship

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2:47bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the Goop podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm joined by two incredible women. You may know them from the L word, Kate Manik and Leisha Haley. Kate is my first cousin, by the way. Off screen, they've built a deep decades-long friendship, one that has carried them through life, work, love, and everything in between. They have a new memoir, So Gay for You, and it's an intimate and hilarious take on identity, chosen family, and the beauty of growing into who you are with the people who really see you.

3:40We talked about how their bond has evolved, the cultural impact of the L word then and now, and how they've stayed connected through it all. Let's get into it.

3:53I'm really excited to jump into this here because it's a beautiful book. And I love the construct. I love how you kind of went back and forth chapters. You know, you take turns, which is really a refreshing way to kind of do a memoir, right? Two best friends, lives totally intertwined, how they're intersecting with each other. But you guys have, you know, I think like what was at the core of the story for me was this beautiful friendship that you have with each other and how it's evolved. And like this idea that, you know, friendship, like real friendship where there's not like fear of being intimate with someone like and being honest with someone.

4:43It's so enduring. And in a way, like, you know, like I think about the long friendships in my life and how they're kind of like these big anchorings, you know, and like almost let me express who I am in other ways. So were you guys, tell us a little bit about like the evolution of the friendship. I mean, you talk about meeting and the audition. It's such a great story and I don't want to, you know, ruin it for people. But like, did you guys have a kind of, was there this moment where you were like immediately, this is my best friend? Or did it really unfold over time after the audition, after you both got the parts and everything in the L word?

5:24Well, we're both natural. I think we're both cats in a way. we kind of sniff things out at first before we before we leap in wouldn't you yeah I like that yeah but but if I'm going to use that analogy I think our instincts was immediate curiosity but we were in this place of competition and as you know like a very unnatural uncomfortable environment with a lot of high stakes and so you don't really like center yourself and live in your being yeah I never planned I never thought I'd get that part so the whole thing was a weird fluke to me that I was even in that room and sitting next to you. And I was getting turned down for jobs left and right.

6:00So I thought I got flown out here for nothing. So I'll just go home and not. Why, why, why were you getting turned down for jobs? It just hadn't been your thing yet. You know, I was just in the grind. I was in the, I was in the zone of just, you know, put doing my time and, and I had come up to a lot of no's and I figured this is another no. Yeah. So I didn't have high expectations for this. But yeah, we both had intrigue. Like, remember what Kate looked like at 24. It was like, compared to today. It was like a job. She's like jaw dropping gorgeous creature, right? Just I mean, really, you know what I'm talking about?

6:37Oh, yeah. And like, jaggery and like androgynous. And there weren't a lot of people like you in the world. I still haven't met one. But I just was like, I wish I could know her. And I probably won't because it's me or her like, it's right. I'll never see her again. So when we saw each other again, after I got a different part, that's when I think we were both like, Oh my God. Yay. It was like, yeah. And then I got the job. I couldn't believe it. It actually worked in my favor for once. And my first thought was, is that blonde girl from the yogurt commercials ever going to, am I never going to see her again?

7:06I would be really unfortunate that I don't, that that was so brief. And I thought about it the whole time I flew to Canada and I thought, I wonder if I'll ever see her again. And what do know she was the first face I saw and then you know we have that gaydar thing right and it's like I don't think you know we can kind of like seek each other out in the world we it's like you know it's like I don't know what it is it's like Fight Club it's just sure you know but were you were you thinking that like in a romantic way like I oh I want to see her again never it was the funny part it never ever ever crossed that line and if it did it's incredibly unnatural like it's a natural to even consider that no it's not like oh i hope that she's i feel like she was one of me you know i mean like oh i hope she somehow we get yeah like the curiosity and fascination wasn't at all sexual or intimate it was just that like human curiosity of i this is my person and thank god we never had that that would have been a nightmare we wouldn't have had a book

8:12so for anyone who is listening to this podcast who might not know Kate is my first cousin she's my little cousin we we grew up well Kate in Philadelphia and us in New York City with lots of time together They're such a great family. And did you get to know her dad, Leisha? Did you? No, it was. Sadly, he passed away very soon after. He passed away like a month after the show aired. Yeah. Oh, wow. What year was that? 2004. Four. That's right. Because I was in New Orleans when I got the call. Your dad died. I remember that. And Bruce passed away like a year and a half earlier. It was a lot of, it was just a lot.

9:01We had a one-two punch there with that. Truly. Like the two matriarchs. Yeah. And Kate's dad was the most magnificent man. Like so elegant and so warm and funny. I loved him so much. He was like, and he was such a different kind of model of masculinity for me. my dad is like was like a very rough you know New York with the accent like Jewish so different Kate's dad was like so erudite and obviously like what was he seventh generation violin maker or something like that some 13 13 yeah and always so and then I we we still don't really know why I call her mom Reen and everyone else calls her Mary, but I don't know either.

9:56I'm not sure why. She'll even sign emails. Whenever she writes, it's always to Reen, but then everyone else calls her Mary. I will never understand the origin. I'm sorry. It couldn't help you. But we grew up, you know, part of our family is very artistic is the point. Like her father had made this incredible career out of artistry, artisanship, and her mother was an amazing ballerina dancer. Lisha, did you grow up in a home where with with artistic people all around you? My parents supported the arts. So my mom always wanted to be an architect. So she always had a drafting table. And she was always sketching things that I didn't understand when I was younger, but she was a nurse by trade.

10:40And my dad was retired Air Force, but he was like an introvert who played chess and played the guitar all day long and meditated and was like, didn't make any sense in the military. And then all their best friends were gay and like theater directors. And, you know, so, and I'm from a really small town in Nebraska. So they, they sort of stuck out and I was just raised in a very supportive household. But where the arts like were centered and. Yes. It wasn't weird that you wanted to pursue it to them. Loved it. Like when I was the little weird, like theater kid, they were like, yes, that's like my mom sewed all my costumes and she went off to play rehearsal.

11:22And, you know, it was, they loved it. I think they enjoyed having a kind of weird little kid. I bet. Kate, I've never asked you, like, did you, what, when you told your parents that you wanted to pursue acting, I mean, obviously you'd gone to the Academy of Dramatic Arts, like they knew that you were interested, but were they, were they supportive? Were they worried? What was their feeling about it? I believe they were like, yeah, we're not surprised. Yeah. It was like after I got through high school, I feel like the subtextual message they sent me was, all right, you've done your time. You did the proper education and it's not for you by any means.

12:04You barely got out of lives. Let's not waste any money on a four-year college. Go do you. So yeah, I went to the academy and And they said, just keep going if this is what you want. But their whole thing was, you're not going to get instant fame. Put in your time, learn your craft, respect the craft, like start from the ground up, like earn your stripes. You're not just going to go from zero to 100. And I thought, that's totally fine with me. I'm not looking for that anyway. So they just instilled me like just to respect the training of it. and did like do you think Blythe had an influence on on you there yes Blythe is what got me into Williamstown because I finished the academy and my father just got diagnosed with cancer I was like I had no I have no play I had no plan after I finished the academy and on tv it was like why don't you spend the summer as an apprentice in Williamstown and I was like I was like absolutely let's go and thanks to her I got like this incredible education I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else and I also remember seeing I remember watching her in plays yeah plays that I didn't understand and that I because I was too young I saw Shakespeare in the park oh man she was she did much to do about nothing with Kevin Kline and I played basketball with Kevin backstage when I was little he was like teaching me how to do a jump shot or something and she was in a no coward play blithe spirit ironically i believe she played the spirit of blithe i think that's i saw right in that too yeah no she's just so i remember just like watching my aunt and plays and i didn't know what that meant but i thought she's so captivating and funny no one realizes how fucking funny she is so funny i always thought like she was the most powerful in herself when she was on stage you know i was i think that's why i wanted to act because I saw her so fully realized up there.

14:04And I was like, I want to be like her when she's there, you know? Yeah, she was just, I just remember being captivated. Yeah. Like, like timing of her, like she had impeccable timing. Totally. Like impeccable timing. I don't think she gets enough credit for her comedy chops. I really don't. It's true. Sometimes I wonder, like for Kate and I, you know, we had this framework of, you know, of artists around us and my mom kind of showing the way. Right. Did you have a sense that like this was a, you know, without that framework, that this was a career that you could really pursue? Oh, I never seemed like crazy.

14:42No, I just Broadway was the only thing I really understood was like, oh, I got to get to a stage in New York. So I went to the Academy also, which is crazy. Just years apart. You didn't overlap. No, we were a few years difference, but it's ironic that we met. Because it's a tiny school. It's a tiny school. It's not like an NYU drama school or something. So the fact that we went there and had the same references and teachers is mind-blowing. But answer your question. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, but the career wasn't, no, I just wanted to learn how to do it. That's really what I thought for me. And then what were your first steps to it?

15:20I mean, because the music came first, right? And commercials? No. it was yogurt no no I met my my friend at school we started playing music as a hobby outside of school and we would play like the subway system and you know we were busking yeah and that I pursued that for real after I graduated acting school I never really I didn't know what to do but same as you like what do you do now they kind of go like okay bye and so I think a couple people get headshots. And I think one girl from our school got on one of those, you know, the airplane videos where they tell you how to like be safe. Like one girl got one of those and we're like, so yeah, there wasn't a real like career path after that.

16:08And I think that's why I fell into music. I was like, well, I know how to do this and I'll just, just see what's good. Right. It was anywhere. No one's telling you when or how or why to do it. You just do it. Yeah, it's so interesting. That's what I, you know, I think that was for me why acting, I don't know, the bloom fell off the rose a little bit, because I felt like, you know, I didn't have agency, whereas, you know, you're waiting to get a job, whereas if you, you know, you can pick up your guitar, you can sing, you can go on the subway and sing and feel that beautiful inspiration coming through you in that energy.

16:42But like, if you're an actor, what are you going to do? Like one of the things I can't stand about this is like a lifestyle. It's like, why even you and I like starting all the things we started together and just to have ownership and agency, like you said, it's just, it's, it's life affirming. And you just feel like, I don't know, waiting for someone to tell you yes or no. And life is a drag or even just waiting for the phone to ring. Yeah, it is. It's, it's really, it's, you know, it's hard.

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17:50So you guys ended up on this show, The L Word, which is like this iconic seminal show. Obviously, there hadn't been, and you talk about this in the book, there hadn't been sort of lesbian role models in culture to this degree, right, until this show. So what did it feel like to be working on it? you know, aside from, I'm sure like on every show or movie, like, you know, there's, there's friction points and whatever, but were you aware of the kind of cultural significance that being, that the show would be while you were doing it? No, I thought when we went up to shoot, it was going to be like an indie sort of grungy lesbian TV show that no one was ever going to see.

18:35Like I didn't understand what we were making. I was expecting craft service to be on the street on a fold, fold out table. You know what I mean? And so when it was happened, when it was, when we were filming it, we were in Vancouver. So we didn't really feel any difference, but when it aired, it was shocking because like you said, the only references we had in like media or our culture was like Martina Martina Navratilova, Ellen had come out and then been basically canceled off of television. Like anybody who risked their career to like come out was it wasn't received very well. So this was the fact that like mainstream culture embraced this show.

19:18I think we were all just like our jaws were on the floor. Wouldn't you say? Yeah, I remember the pilot thinking this is such a unique experience because everyone seems to fit this puzzle perfectly. I don't know how this got aligned, but this is odd. This doesn't always happen. And then feeling that it would be really unfortunate if it was just a pilot. And the fact that a network, a cable network was like, no, we're going to take a shot with you. Yeah. It was oddly affirming. But then, like Alicia said, we shot in Vancouver and then the show aired and then my dad died. So I didn't have, so suddenly all the enthusiasm just kind of went out the window and I'm just processing what grief feels like on this level.

20:01And I'm young, I was 26. So how does one think that way? And no one, there's no handbook. And I didn't really have anyone to talk to. And I was new to LA. It was just a lot of newness. So I had this delayed realization. Alicia would call and be like, the show's doing really well. And I was like, how is it? I was like, that's great. Let me like pull myself up off the floor and like, try to see like, see it for myself. And then slowly, but surely I think throughout the years it was just gaining a little bit more popularity but it was hard to gauge because we didn't have social media so there was no update info of like what do people think this week but you could feel it and you could feel it and then you'd like see something in a magazine and you're like oh wow that's that's pretty neat it's hard but I would say where we really felt it was like a gay bar oh yeah all the years we had gone to gay bars before they were sort of dark and secret and you know nobody nobody cared yeah yeah and all of a sudden you walk in and like everyone had like long hair and like it was yeah it was like you could see like the fashion like that like the odd fashion that we had was being like transitioned into real life and then if we went to the gay bar we signed autographs for three hours totally we were like puppies like in like in the window of a pet store on like a big street like we couldn't do it we're like we can't do this and we shot in Vancouver so like we we got we were like in our little bubble and whoever was really successful at that time or was a paparazzi magnet it wasn't us nobody gave a shit about us when we came back to LA for a hiatus so we kind of had the best of both worlds where we could hide out and then see it if we wanted to see it and then disappear those two I also wonder if because like if you think about if you think about it like the the television shows that really have changed cultural perception of gay men specifically are always like comedies, right?

21:56Like Will and Grace or Glee or Modern Family. And it's interesting to me that the one that kind of changed the cultural perception of lesbians was a drama. Like it was really the intricacies of your lives, like, you know, and it was sort of desexualized in that way, right? Like Like it wasn't, it ultimately, you didn't have to be gay. Like the joke wasn't that you're gay and that's what makes it funny, right? It was really about like in the same way that some of the comedies are, right? This was like just a beautiful portrait of these women and their friendships. And it was like very real. Well, it was interesting for me just having been gay that whole time.

22:39And like, I was, I was pretty broke and would wear like grungy t-shirts and oversized jeans. And all my friends were like, I didn't even understand these women that we were portraying on TV. I'm like, who are these gay people? Like, I don't, this is not what it's, I don't know this, but I'm supposed to, yeah, I'm supposed to represent this person. And it really started to change me. And I realized I had like my own limited ideas of what my future was going to look like. I thought, okay, I understand gay. I know how to do it. and these are my options in life. And it kind of broke me wide open and showed me that like me along with the rest of the world, it was showing at the same time, like, no, we can be all these things.

23:19We can be well-rounded, well-off. You can have a group of friends. You can, you know, it just was like, it was weird to be inside it and also learning at the same time. Yeah. Kate, I think it was you said something in the book you talk about. it was, you know, this example of women kind of choosing to be, you know, it was like the first sort of real, like serious portrait of a lesbian who's like choosing to not have a child, right? And to choose like career and interpersonal relationships and stuff. And so I wonder like how did that help you in terms of your, like the cultural definition? Like was there an empowerment that came inherently with the way that those characters were portrayed yeah for sure because it had never been seen before and there certainly seemed to be this sort of stereotype of like what people thought a gay woman was yeah and this show was like hold that thought we're about to blow that concept wide open and suddenly we were it just it was incredibly liberating because it's like no let's be fabulous we can be sexy we can be sexy we can like sexuality we can you know especially you honey jeez like we can dress how we want to dress like not all of us want to like settle down and have kids and we get to just live our fabulous messy imperfect lives and we also showed that like women objectify women yeah i should never mention that's why everyone thought the show was from the male gaze because it's like obviously only a male can think of women like that and we were like no we can think of each other like that and i think that we got some shit for that for a while people would just you know write us off and say well a man wrote that that's for men and it's like that's not actually like we do and it's okay how did you come out to your parents i don't even i remember my mother telling me and you're like you're like was it like new were you like yeah you're not gonna believe this I was like wow I'm so not shocked but you know your mom is very catholic my mom is catholic yet like it was in the broadway world like all my adopted uncles were gay men from she so was that I've never really asked you about what that how that went and what you said and how you felt well I think unfortunately it was a little conflated with my father dealing with his illness at the time and right you know I got to give my mother some grace because no parent wants their child to have a hard life and I think Mary was worried initially that my life was going to be harder and with all of the change and all of sort of like everything kind of up in the air.

26:14I mean, you know, you've been there. I think it just added the worry. And so it took her a minute to like come back down and realize that, oh no, this is not such a bad thing. But it was an adjustment. Also, that's still that generation, I think, you know, I think it was a different time. And then there's the generation. And I don't think the religion part of it ever played a part. She's not like some nun that locked me in an attic. She is not a nun. And she's definitely not a nun. I just say, I just, I just mentioned it more from like the paradigm of, you know, it's like sometimes we get really inculcated with these values that we grow up with, you know, and we don't even necessarily know how ingrained they are in us.

26:56What did your dad say? Can I say one thing? I remember her visiting and wanting to like kind of see your friends. Yes. And I remember you said she feels better about things when she walked. I remember that trip. Yeah. Yeah. Mary. When was this? She came to visit set. I think we were first season of filming and she came up to Vancouver to visit because she hadn't met anyone. And she said, let me see what my daughter's new life is. She got to like suss everybody out and she fell in love with Leisha naturally. and I think and like you said that's a really good memory she felt better after she saw everybody and realized that everyone was there and and supporting you and nice and sweet yeah it was I think she was comforted by that visit oh I don't I can't remember the question you asked what did your dad what was his response I didn't ever get a chance to talk to to Bill did you not I didn't get a chance to but But I said in the book at one point, I feel like he knew.

27:54And knowing how my father operated in life, it was less is always more. So I can't really see that guy coming out directly saying something, but giving me some sort of subliminal message that he's like, no, I caught that. Right. I guess this is for both of you. Did you feel in your respective childhoods like there was room for that? Like, you know, I imagine in Nebraska, it's not sort of at the forefront of culture, right? I think you had a more open and fighting environment than I did. I guess. Did you feel like you had enough examples to feel like, okay, you know, I can, when I bring this to my parents, you know, there will be understanding here.

28:38I had a really mixed message. and because my family was so like again you know Jay and Tim would come over and they'd have their they hold hands and kiss each other and they were just fully themselves and then my mom's other best friend Maureen would bring all her girlfriends the rotating girlfriends through the years but when I saw these people who are basically my aunts and uncles like not through blood when I saw them out in Bellevue and in public like to him wouldn't come to Jay's musical or would they wouldn't say they were together. I realized that society was saying, we don't want to, we don't want to know about this.

29:16And, but my parents were like, but these are who we love. So it was, I didn't know what to do. So when I realized I was gay, I didn't. How old were you when you realized? I was pretty young when I was having crushes on girls. I just didn't know what to call it. And then I think in pretty much in high school when I really was like, oh, I love you. to my to my friend it was I was like oh we got a problem here I've got to do this yeah I didn't know I had it I had to go discover what it was what it meant to me and that's why I moved to New York not one of the one of the reasons I just felt like I could be fully myself and then I told my parents but I still worried I was like are they gonna I mean it's it's their daughter is it gonna feel different I know they're so open but maybe when it comes to me they'll be like, uh-oh, I don't know, but they were great.

30:07And they were accepting about it right away. Yeah. Right away. It's, it's so beautiful because, you know, it's funny. It's like, I think not even about sexuality, but as parents, you know, our parents or myself as parents, like we have these ideas about our kids, right? Like, oh, they're, we, we hope they're going to grow up and be a, this or a doctor or, you know, and it's like, it's really as a parent, like how quickly can you let go of your projections and your expectations, right? And fully see your child for everything they are and like revel in that. And sometimes, especially in different genres, like it doesn't match up perfectly, but it's so, it just must be so, I don't know, ultimately, it's so important, I think, to be able to present your full self, like the whole spectrum of who you are to the people who love you.

31:04Exactly. And don't you think that's, I mean, we, neither one of us have children, but I can imagine that that's probably, that that's where like the blessing lies in your relationship with your child is the moment you let go and they fully like come to you with who they are. Like, that's probably where it really starts. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And Reen is like totally great with it oh reen look i think i spell that r-e-n-e reen loves anna more than me it's amazing how could you not love anna is the greatest anytime i talk to her how's can i speak to anna for a moment and i said sure it's for you and i said how long have you guys been married now we've been together for 10 married for

31:57seven I think yeah are you married I just got married last year congratulations thank you who did he marry her first girlfriend I yeah my Kim she was my first real girlfriend in New York and we were getting about five years we lived in a studio apartment. I worked at a bakery. She was, she was a waitress going to acting school. So we, we kind of start and I was like playing music. We started our careers together and then we broke up because we just needed to go become the people we were going to become. And we, it was too early to settle down. And then we fell back in love like 20 something years later.