Autism, Language & Intersectionality: The Hidden Bias In Diagnosis & Support

0:00Welcome to The Hidden 20%, our neurodiversity charity on a mission to rewrite the future for people who think differently. Together with you and an eclectic range of brilliant guests, we can break the cycle of silence by smashing outdated stereotypes, exposing the myths, and sharing the most up-to-date truths about what it really means to be just different, not deficient. The best way you can help is really simple. Subscribe so you never miss an episode and if you can donate to our charity through the link below. Enough preamble. I'm Ben, your host. Let's get into today's episode.

0:47order i'm actually going to start with some words that i have tattooed on my arm because today we're going to talk a lot about identity communication but i wondered if you know this quote whence did the mystic art arise of painting speech and speaking to the eyes that we by tracing magic lines are taught how to colour and embody thought. I don't know, but I love it. It's good, isn't it? Sounds like something that like during the Romanticism period. That's 1763. Yeah. But like words, communication, language. Yeah. You are a speech and language therapist. Guilty. Guilty. You are a researcher. You are an author.

1:35You are a warder. I am. You are autistic. I am. And I actually would like to start so that we are all on a level playing field here. If you can give me your interpretation of the meaning of ableism. Because it comes up a lot in this space and I don't think enough people actually know what it means. So I think there's many ways to put it. But to put it really simply, if you think about racism in which people might be discriminated against because of the color of their skin or et cetera, ableism equally so is when you are discriminated against because of your disability. And the interesting thing about ableism is because some disabilities are hidden with racism, you could say, oh, that happened to me because I'm black or I'm brown.

2:29And that's how I know that to be a tangible thing. But with ableism, there's aspects of it that are hidden. And so it's embodied in that. But I think because ableism for me is a new one, if that makes sense. We're so used to the other forms of discrimination. We talk about, you know, whether it's sex discrimination, your gender, your sexuality, your race, all of the other ones. Forgive me if I've missed any out. But with ableism, it's quite hard to pinpoint exactly because for myself as a disabled person, my needs may manifest very differently to yours. And so ableism can occur when my needs are not met, which is hard to articulate for people because I think with racism and sexism, it's so concrete, right?

3:14And I think the interesting thing about ableism is a lot of us have internalized ableism too, where because we live in a society that has never really valued disabled people, people that are marginalized in different ways, we have also, like Osmosis, taken on these viewpoints of what is a disabled person, the value placed on a disabled person, the idea that locking people away in institutions, that sounds crazy, but it wasn't that long ago. But we still do it, let's be honest. Yeah, exactly. Even the example of the royal family and that documentary with the Queen's cousins, etc., being put into institutions because of their disability.

3:54So in our society, we seem to have a real intolerance for people who are disabled. Why do you think that is? Well, Robert Chapman writes a really good book, Empire of Normality. But this idea of capitalism, so this idea of link to profit, are disabled people profitable people in a capitalistic society or do we need to keep making adjustments and and put support in for them and whenever people talk about oh you know the the bill for care is going to go up to x amount of billion it's about who is deemed productive and who's not and actually when we further excavate that and look at that we look at in the 17th century with the construction of race and you say oh what's that construction of race is this idea that around the slave trade there was these categories created of man the white man the black man the asian man even though asia is a whole continent with a variation of very different people even though you know whether you're black in brazil or black in east africa there's a huge diversity yes but people were allotted into boxes and so hierarchy was created.

5:09And so the ideal man or the ideal human from that literature is white, tall, slim. I'm not that tall. All that slim, actually. I'm not trying to put myself in that box. No, yeah, but able-bodied. Yes. You know? And so by virtue of you being neurodivergent, you don't fit that mould. Yeah. Does that make sense? But when we really look at that, how many people fit that mould? It's a very small percentage of people. And so to tie it back in a very long way, our systems don't work for a lot of us. They only work for a few of us. Yes. And so that within itself is ableism. Yes. Yes, that is a great way of bringing it back round.

5:58I've read what you've written about this, but I'm going to ask you so that people can have the benefit of hearing you discuss it. You talk about yourself as a disabled person. Can you just explain how you have got to that identity or that kind of phrasing? Begrudgingly. It's really strange because people may look at me and be like, oh, you're not disabled in any capacity. And in fact, you look like you're doing well in your life and things are going great for you as well. But when I think about my needs as an autistic person, as a person with ADHD in this society, there are many things that I struggle with.

6:37There are many things that are difficult for me that people don't know about. Because I don't want to make a big deal out of it. I don't want people to think that I'm less than. And that was when I was younger. But as I've gotten older, I've embraced the fact that I do have these needs. And I had to argue with this thing in my head where I'm like, but I'm not a disabled person. Yeah, but I am. And then I'm like, well, what am I disabled by? And it's like, well, I'm disabled by a society that is not created for people like me. So because of the design of our society, yes, I am disabled in that context.

7:14Yes, in the social model of disability. Because my sensory needs are different. It's a real reality. My light, heat, smell, touch, just even the vibe in the room. You know, I feel all of these things. my nervous system, the way my nervous system carries things, the way my mind might process language or words or colors, all of these things are different for me. And I'm often in a society, in spaces and places where I am bombarded with sensory, oral, visual information, and it tires me out. And so I know, like in my head, I'm like, you know what, Ward, you're smart, you're hard working you're doing all that you can do but sometimes it's not enough and that is because of the levels of cognitive fatigue I face or the fact that I do a lot of my work from bed people don't know that a lot of the best work that I do is from bed like I need to be laying down and so while all of that is not physically obvious to people sure it's my internal life yes and so So in order to be fair to myself, I had to accept my disability.

8:32And whilst it's a hidden disability, it's real and it's something I mediate and think about every day. But also, with that said, whilst I consider my disability, I'm really well aware of how inaccessible our society is to people with physical disabilities, to people who may be deaf, to people who may be blind, to people who have chronic illness. You know, my understanding of disability helps me to understand that actually I'm able to go out and get around. But that doesn't mean I'm any less disabled. Yes. You know, I'm able to function to a certain extent. So just to be really clear, do you feel disabled when you are not sensory overwhelmed, when you are not cognitively challenged?

9:23To be honest with you, I would say no. And I don't want it to be like a controversial thing of, oh, you're sometimes disabled and sometimes, but a lot for me is around my environment. And my environment does create all of these things for me that affects my ability. Luke Bearden, golden equation, autism plus environment equals outcome. Yeah. Yeah. The environment and then the people within the environment. So, you know, imagine, you know, discovering that you're autistic, but being afraid to tell anybody, like being afraid to tell the people closest to you, like your friends, because they don't believe that because the identity that they've built up for you is like water, funny water.

10:06like yeah she's always forgetting things or getting you know wires crossed there's always something funny going on and you like that identity is built so much that you can't see the woods for the trees tell me about that journey then to your autism diagnosis long journey turbulent journey joyful journey too i always knew as a child i was a bit different and i think people say that but they don't know what they mean but i just didn't get it and there was no reason why I didn't get it but I think maybe I was a good people watcher I discovered very early on that if I was friends with people who were very capable then I'd be okay so how do you be a good friend you'd be kind you'd be caring you'd be attentive you'd be all of those things so I learned very early on from my environment how to be a person that can be the wallflower but still be okay so I've built an identity around that unknowingly as a way to survive.

11:06That worked really well in primary school. And it worked half as well in secondary school. But by the time I had hit puberty and relationships were becoming more difficult and friendships were more complicated, like a best friend wasn't just like how it was in primary school. It was different and the rules were different. And I remember distinctly having this thing with myself where I was like, what the hell is wrong with me? Because like when someone tells me they're my best friend, I believe it. No, I get you. It sounds really, really silly, right? It's a silly thing to say, but like, I was like, what's wrong with me?

11:47Because when someone tells me like they're my best friend, I really believe it. And I think it's like a forever thing and like we're locked in forever. And then when someone tells me to keep a secret, I can really like keep that secret. but if they don't tell me to I'll tell everybody very literal very yes so I had learned that actually I had these communication differences but how my peers would read them is like as if I was being rude or being feisty or being a big mouth yes or when I told the truth yes this was direct yeah like I learned a lot like people don't want to hear the truth don't tell them the truth But I had to go through telling the truth and being ridiculed for it or being called out for it.

12:32And so when these relationships, you know, these pubescent relationships, they're forming and people are liking boys and liking girls and I don't know what I'm feeling. I don't know what the feelings are in my body. I've got a lot of thoughts in my head and it's not linking up to my body. So I'm thinking, oh my God, am I like, what is wrong with me? And what feedback could you get to externalize that? Nothing, because, you know, I'll tell you the weirdest thing. I had never heard of autism. Yep. So this is back in 2003, 2004 and five and six. And I had never, ever heard of autism, didn't know it existed.

13:16And I just thought maybe there's just something wrong with me. Maybe I've just got a bad attitude or I don't know. Like, I'm just different. but when I look back now I see so many patterns of like an anxious child I would like be picking a lot I had periods of silence I had periods where I was very literal with language I think as a child it should have been clearer to people and probably my family as well but everybody made my kind of like my traits a part of my personality yes and I bought into that so I believe that oh I'm just a blabbermouth oh I'm just rude and blunt oh you know I'm naive that's a part of my personality I'm gullible and naive yeah and it's not true so when I studied speech language therapy which I did by accident by the way okay and then I specialized in autism yeah and then one day but sorry just to be clear before you were diagnosed yes let's just like before anything before before anything i go and love autism and specialize in it and then one day yeah and i know and i know and this is a time where it was like the the training that i had in speech therapy they were like social skills i'd never do social skills now but back then it was very like pre-prescribed teaching children of social skills okay and remember i'm autistic so whatever social skills i'm teaching them are not the appropriate ones, right?

14:44Yes. But I remember being in this group that I really loved being in. And there were a bunch of eight-year-olds. And there was a little girl and she looked just like me. And there was another little boy. And I remember one day they were telling me something funny. Like I had told them that I think I was on the phone. I was in Sainsbury's. I forgot my shopping. I did something silly. And one of the children was like, make sure this time when you go to Sainsbury's that you're not on the phone and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I just laughed at that. And then one child looked at me and said, what are you just like us?

15:20I was not happy with that. Yeah. So this child just looked at me and said, you're just like us. And it was like this weird moment where the room was frozen. I looked at them. They looked at me. And like all these 30 years of thinking, what's wrong with me? What is it? Am I, have I got borderline personality disorder? Am I clinically depressed? What am I? That child said it to me and I went, oh my God, I'm autistic. And I just like, I've got to keep this a secret. Yeah. Okay. It wasn't like a freeing feeling. No, that's interesting. It wasn't. It was a, I know what it is now. Yeah. And it's like, even through my training, nobody saw me.

16:11but the children saw me. Yeah. An eight year old autistic child saw you. Yes. Yes. And I'm like, it still blows my mind. Yeah. And then I was like, I don't, I don't know what to do with this information because I don't know who to talk to, even though I'm in this world. Yeah. And even though I'm the one that's like affirming parents and affirming other people, it felt like, and I do not want to compare it to coming out in that way. I don't want anybody to confuse me and say, it's like a secret. And you've got to come out to somebody. And I had to psych myself up psychologically for who do I come out to?

16:54You know, and that was scary for me because when I did tell a friend or two, people thought it was funny. Because they thought, sure. Or you can't be. I know you've written. You can't be. You can't be. You're so talkative, you've got so many friends, you're always doing something. That's not autism. And black girls can't be autistic. Yeah, see, I wasn't even thinking about that. You see how, like, I wasn't even thinking about the racialized aspect. Yep. So it was this interesting thing where I'm like, half out, half in. So I started off by only telling people I trusted. And I wouldn't even talk about it at work.

17:38Okay. even though you were continuing to work with autistic children yes i know it sounds crazy yeah but i guess because i work in this area and i know the experiences of people i know what ableism is yes yes i know by very like you know by default what ableism is and i even thought to myself wow like if i tell an employer i'm autistic will they see every trait or everything i do as part of that and not you know like people just start seeing things and so I had that fear as well yeah yeah because whether rightly or wrongly or fortunately or unfortunately these words carry such weight and these names like autism these words are so loaded and you don't actually it It feels like an absolute lottery today of who knows what, how much do you know, how unaware are you, what's your personal connection to this.

18:40And I know that if I tell somebody I'm autistic, I know that they might laugh. They might think I'm joking. They might minimize what I've said by telling me about their mates, husband, daughter, son, partner, who's way worse. or they might just move on and ignore it and not engage with it. Yeah, because it's hard to believe. And I think that that is that notion of what it means to be autistic, like who gets to be autistic. And I think that that kind of like leads into in 2017, when I was having these experiences, the autistic community or the neurodiversity community wasn't like what it is today.

19:23And that's only a couple of years ago. So we have made huge leaps and bounds in representation and in understanding and even talking about it. Because in 2017, I couldn't and it's taken me years to build up my identity and be comfortable with that. But in 2017, when I Googled like, you know, autistic women or female, I saw a bunch of negative stuff and I was like, oh, God. You know, I saw it as like, oh, my God. Yeah, I'm not safe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do we need to know, we, about speech and language and autism? Well, lots of different things. I think I often write about the governing of the voice, the governing of the body, and how much speech-language therapy early on is linked to eugenics.

20:15Yes, I'll send you the paper. I know people don't like me to say this. The thing is, speech-language therapists do wonderful, important work. And we should never put that down and we should know that. But we should also understand where things come from. This idea of correcting a voice, of changing a voice, of teaching of social skills, of all of that. Remember we talked about value production? If you are disabled in society, how can we fix you up so you can be of value? Yep. So with that lens on it, whilst it's a caring and helping profession, we also have to look at that aspect of it. And so when we think about speech, language, we think about development, we think about psychology, we think about milestones, ages and stages.

20:57Sure. You've got children. We've all bought into this idea of there are these specific milestones. Yes. And they're not real. No, they're really not real. because if you look at a lot of the research there's Arnold Gessel and from the 1920s over at Yale he had a lab where he you know took the pictures and said 18 months children do this but that's from like how long ago? What that we're still working with today? Yes yes because if you've ever heard of Mary Sheridan still one of the most early most popular childhood development books is by Mary Sheridan and one of the reasons why we have the red book when your child is born There was a researcher called Stanley Hall and he said over in America, we need to have a development book of each child to know where they're at and doing what they're doing.

21:43Bit of surveillance, isn't it? Really, if you think about it. Sorry, parents. And so that idea comes in through Mary Sheridan's work about these ages and stages and then this red book. So what I am saying is we need to excavate and understand development psychology, right? Because these links to eugenics are very, very real. Yeah, that's slightly terrifying. Yeah, but the positive is when you know that, you know the bits of speech and language therapy you don't want and you know the bits that you do want. Tell me how eugenics, tell me how that's an outcome of the speech and language history. So if you think standardized testing, so often a lot of speech language therapists will use standardized tests.

22:33What's a standardized test? Whether you're an educational psychologist or whether you're a speech therapist or whether you're whatever, you use these tests and they're normed. When I say normed, that means the amount of children that it's been used on before it's been used on your child to get all the data from it to say, yeah, it's a valid test. Yes. They're often normed on populations that are not the populations that they test. So if you've got a test normed in America from 30 years ago with kids in America, white, middle class, mainstream, etc. And then you come to London and you assess little warder who's multilingual, comes from this background.

23:15What that test is testing is not your language ability. It's your cultural ability. It's your ability to take the test. That standardization for neurodivergent folk as well is very problematic because if you're neurodivergent, your language, your communication, the way that you develop may not match those norms that were never real anyways. Yes. So we're always comparing children to a fake norm. How do you, because I imagine people could then say to you, yeah, but if we don't have any guide or any milestones or any measures, how do we know to spot challenges, problems like, okay, water, fine, let's not take tests from America.

24:04And let's not just take tests that have been used on white middle class people from 40 years ago. What's the answer? What should we do? the kind of thing that i think about is when are these tests valid and when are they used a lot of these tests are really about the education system aren't they because usually the first time that your child sees a ed psychologist or speech language therapist is because maybe the school's made a referral and said something not to say that parents don't refer and these things don't happen but let's just say usually something's flagged up externally yep right because your child may not be performing to what?

24:43A measurement that doesn't exist anyways within the education system. Yes. So because your child is not performing to that level, let's test them on this test that doesn't even measure what it's supposed to measure. Let's tell you how many standard deviations below your child has scored and let's help them by training them on that very test that they failed and then showing you the progress they've made as they've moved up to standard deviations. Because they've done better on the test. They have done better on the test, but has that generalized to their everyday life? Now, speech therapists are caught in on to this and say, actually, let's be more dynamic.

25:18Let's look at the environment. Let's look at the teachers. Let's support other people around the child. Because very often this idea of norm, this idea of communication, it's coming from that lens, right? But if we can teach children that actually, they're hugely capable they have all of the abilities that they need but they need to be supported in the right ways and so we have a huge issue with our education system yes but because we have an issue with our education system we often blame the children and the parents for a lack of thriving we are often having conversations where after lockdown people are saying well the nursery children are coming into nursery and they're not potty trained or they don't know how to use a knife or fork or their language is so behind socialized they're not socialized and I think to myself how could children spend intense periods of time with their main caregivers the people they learn language from yeah and they're worse off yeah yeah yeah so there's all the things that happen and then there's the structural stuff and all of these things are interlinked and for me as like autistic person and as a person with ADHD, I don't just see the big picture.

26:40I see the small details. I don't just see things in silo. So when I talk about education, it's not in silo. It's in relation to society, in relation to work, in relation to all of these other things. And we have created a society that is ableist, that is racist, that is sexist, that is transphobic, that is xenophobic. And we have structures to keep that in place. So it's not crazy to believe that because our education system doesn't cater to our children, that the problem is with it and not the children. Yes, I would also take it as far as seeing that the problem is with it and not even the people.

27:24No, no, not no. I've never met a teacher that wants to do a bad job or doesn't care about children or doesn't care about education or their future or the subject that they teach, right? Yeah, no. And that's what people don't seem to understand, that we are all complicit within systems of harm, even when we think that we're doing good. Even as neurodivergent people saying, we believe in inclusion, we believe in this. Well, in our daily lives, what do we do to be inclusive of others? And so it is this bigger messaging of we do live in a society that's been created in a certain way. Yeah. And we can't just say these things are not by design because they are by design.

28:08Yeah. And just by the very nature of and I tell you the best thing about being autistic and ADHD is for me, I think in design. So I'm looking at environments. I'm looking at structures. I'm thinking, how does that ecology create whatever is created? Yep. And so even now when we have these conversations, these debates about, oh, there's too many children with mental health needs. There's too many children with diagnoses. There's too much send. Yeah, I know. Which is what we say. A symptom of a poor education system, a symptom of a society that doesn't care about its children, that doesn't care about its adults.

28:50where people who are working hard day and night don't have levels of safety and comfort. That's an uncomfortable society. So maybe we're all feeling that. And maybe our kids are also feeling that. Of course. How do we break that cycle? Well, we talk about it. Yeah. And we don't have these distractions, these conversations about there's too much ADHD or even that Uta Frith article about, you know. Don't get me started on that. Well, you don't. The too much thing and the too flimsy thing, that is a dreadful argument. It's a distraction. Yeah. It doesn't matter what Ute Frith says. Yeah. My experiences still matter.

29:35Yeah. But unfortunately, because it is Ute Frith, it does matter what she says. And that is power, hierarchies and structure. And so like for someone like me doing what I do, particularly in speech and language therapy and saying, let's not use standardized testing on children. Let's not see neurodivergence as a disorder. Yes, it's a difference in communication. And we can teach children bidirectionally that they have their own way that they communicate. And there is these ways that other people communicate. How can we come together? That's OK. I'm happy to do that. But what you find is if a system is designed in a certain way, it has all these mechanisms and structures.

30:19So people like me who speak out genuinely are often the target. A lot of vitriol, a lot of hate and a lot of negativity that does affect you. Because I think the system works by keeping people silent. Of course. Like if we are quiet, we'll be OK. But as a person who has been through this education system, as a person who is neurodivergent and as a person who's worked in this system, I know it's not working. And so I can't be silent. But I also need other people to be like, you know what? It's not okay. It's not okay. We need to change it. Let's talk about the NHS and your time there. Oh, God.

31:05Switching gear. Yeah, so I was in the NHS very briefly when I first started. And there was some problematic stuff in terms of the way that we were using assessments and etc. And I could spot the pattern that there were certain amounts of children who were being flagged up as having communication difficulties, right? And often they were black, racialized, marginalized children. If they were white, they were like white and working class or whatever. And so there was a pattern of children that I was seeing coming in, being told that their language was deficient in some way, needed support, needed early intervention, all of that stuff.

31:45And when I looked at these children's language and these language samples, I thought, this is really creative language. This is really creative communication. This is very South London. This is very Bermondsey. Do you know what I'm trying to say here? And so I realised the pattern that, okay, we assess these children, we say that these ones are failing, then we help them and we show improvement. But we've done nothing to change those people's lives. Yeah. You're just trying to make them fit in. That's the whole tip of the box. To the standardised tests, right? That's the thing. That's the thing.

32:19And for much of those children, there were times where parents couldn't afford to get on a bus to come to a clinic. and I would have to DNA that and send you a letter and say, well, you're off that waiting list. Yes, black mark. You know, that's not helpful. So I knew I was complicit in some harm. And when I said, hey, like this isn't working or whatever, I was just told, what do you know, young person? Sure. Come on, what have you just started? Yeah, well, how could you know anything? But I think there's something really powerful in not even just being young, being new to a situation where you see things i think we need more people that go into spaces and spot things and tell you yeah because the longer people work in certain places they're just used to it yep so for me i was like whoa this is problematic this is racist this is ableist this is not helpful this is a waste of money yeah yeah yeah waste of taxpayers money yeah and time and time why are we doing it in this way and so I left and then I went into some other bits and pieces because I thought it's me I can't work in this system and that's the thing about being autistic as well I find for me is I just can't I can't comply as much as I want to if I believe something is wrong yes even if it means that harm comes to me i just can't yeah yeah there's always times when my partner's just like settle down and i'm like yes you don't understand yeah i can't i can't and so some people won't understand it but there's a real drive and desire for equity and fairness and truth and truth right it's just like just being honest yeah well yeah but and it's like it's not working let's change it let's make it better yeah but there's a lot of apathy yeah in people yeah i can't stand yeah but but so basically i went off and i was doing stroke research and there was a young person that i had helped and he ended up doing very well and he ended up sending me an email and he basically said what you up to now who else are you helping and I told him well I'm not a speech therapist anymore I'm in stroke research at the moment and he was like what he was like you should do this for yourself like why and I was like do what for myself so I just want to qualify the fact that because of that experience at the NHS you switched career yeah stroke research yeah stroke association I loved it by the way I was still in that speech therapy world but it was like I felt like actually I can't be within this system I can't work and I don't fit and because of my neurodivergence it's clear I don't fit because I'm just not complying and I'm not getting the people politics so I'm not reading between the Lines here.

35:22Too honest? Yeah, yeah. And so what ended up happening was that young person said to me, like, Warder, why don't you believe in yourself? And I had another come to moment, just like when that child said, you're just like us. This person said, like, you believed in me. Why don't you believe in yourself? And I had another moment where I was like, shit. Yeah, I don't believe in myself. yeah I work with children all the time telling them that believe in yourself you could be anything I don't believe I could be anything that was paradigm like okay water you need to get rid of that in your head you need to work on that and I said you know what he sent me a link to the prince's trust and he said to me you're going to be 30 soon I think you need to do this what insight what kindness what circular love and support and in some ways I'm here talking to you now because a young person I helped told me I could do it for myself yeah so and that story always still gets me you know so so powerful but I went and I started a social enterprise called language waves and I didn't know what the point of it was but it was to do speech therapy differently.

36:38It was to be culturally and linguistically affirming. It was to be caring. It was to be honest with people. It was to deal with structural stuff and do training. And it's what's changed my life because I learned that actually as an autistic person, as a neurodivergent person, I'm very entrepreneurial. And that's always been hidden because in the education system, it was never identified. And I've always been doing really entrepreneurial things when I was in school but I would get into trouble for it sure so then I like it deviates from the norm right it's or challenges the norm yeah and it's like then I found out about like special interests and my my friend Chris Bailey works at Sheffield Hallam he calls them ruling passions he's got this book called ruling passions I'm like yeah I discovered like when I get into something I learn all about it and it's amazing and then I like got into flow state And then I was like less anxious and nervous because I wasn't in an organization that was against my own values and politics.

37:40And I was meeting other people that were keen to like change the world or address something. So I was like, I found my people. Yep. And weirdly enough, they always ended up being neurodivergent. Yep. So I was like always on these like business courses or accelerator programs with people who were different. Yep. And I love, I love that energy. Like I love being around neurodivergent people who just are in some ways discovering themselves, but also really excited about life. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like I've had these two moments where young people have held up a mirror and kind of gone like, you're OK, you can do this.

38:29And that's the powerful thing about like relationality, relationships with people and just how insightful children are. Yeah. How much insight and ability to see that they have. And I think with my work as a speech language therapist, I'm like, let's document all the wonderful things that children do with language already. Like, I'm not saying we need new benchmarks or new milestones, but when was the last time we really looked at like what children come into school with? because I think we'd be very surprised at all the assets that they have. And so why can't we figure out what children's assets are and then work on their assets rather than getting children finding their deficits and working on their deficit?

39:12I know. It's counterintuitive. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, right? Well, it does. It makes a lot of sense of sort of why we want to create, you know, uniform like children who are sort of factory made at scale and can be okay at everything. Which is the purpose of education. Yeah. Unfortunately, for that industrial kind of situation. And, you know, sometimes I have like jokes with people and I'm like, do you know what? How long ago was it before we had children in chimneys, sweeping chimneys? Not that long ago. Yeah, yeah. So there's a history here of not honoring or valuing childhood and children.

39:53Yeah. But we've put the system first. Yeah. And scale before the individual and before the child and before needs and all the rest of it, which we now see playing out of like it's coming to a head. Well, I mean, we're going to really suffer if we don't start to honor the children in our society and genuinely love them and respect them and help them to grow. Because I don't want to live in a society where the adults are doing better than the children. Yeah. Like that's not the society I want to be in and it's not why I do what I do. But I don't want to be like a worrisome person. But lately I feel like with childhood and the way that we conceptualize it and the negative things that we talk about, youth violence and all these things, we don't really talk about how brilliant children are.

40:43The wonderful things that they're doing, the good news stories that exist. And so we kind of do this thing where as adults, we either police children or we have these narratives about children, about, you know, drugs and missing school and mental health. But as adults, there's a certain level of grace that we can do things behind closed doors and be messy, but then sort our shit out and then come out. Teenagers don't have that. No. What gives you hope, Warder, in the education system? What are those bright lights, those leading light examples you can tell us about? There's so many organisations and movements.

41:25So like in Manchester, there's Rekindle Education Trust who are doing education very differently. You know, Cathy Waisel from Autistic Girls Network. We have the Haven. But there's all these like grassroots things in arts. And I really believe in the arts and the music and the creative industries. and so there's a lot of things happening for children. I still wish there was more. Sure. I still wish there was more. But yeah, those things give me joy and the work that's happening at certain universities. So like with a couple of my friends, so like Abigail Hackett, David Ben Shannon, Ruth Churchill-Dawa, we have this book called Language, Place and the Body.

42:06And so there's a lot of interest in that. There's a lot of interest in thinking about childhood differently and there's a lot of people doing really great work and it's we just need to put them all together yeah and i think that's the exciting thing because i think that there's a bubbling of critical consciousness yes i think we're all getting like actually what should we be doing and so that bubbling of critical consciousness is so exciting because i don't know what the solution is but i know it involves us connecting yeah i feel that to the the groundswell and i guess we probably see there are amazing people amazing organizations this is touching all aspects of society yeah and there's private sector charity sector and so there's all of this great groundswell but i feel like everybody is singing their own song at the moment individually yeah and to like butcher the analogy it's like same melody different words and we just need to all kind of sing the same song for once yeah and that's like singing from the same hymn sheet yeah and i'll give you the muslim version of that is you know i growing up my parents taught me that in some metaphysical way we are all part of one human body and when one piece of it suffers, we all suffer.

43:31And so I really grew up really early on knowing that someone else's suffering is my own. Because ultimately, whether you believe it or not, we are interconnected. And what affects others will in somehow, some way affect you. And I think the interesting thing about the neurodiversity movement and the conversation is it affects everybody in some way. Because if it's not you, it's your child. And if it's not your child, It's their friend. Yeah. And so these things, they connect us. And so maybe the answer is like more relationality, more conversation like this, not rushing to action. Yeah. Because often what people do is they rush to action and we're going to do this and we're going to do this and we're going to do that.

44:21and this idea that as Maya Angelou says we're all part of the you know human family that's what we are yeah regardless of age race creed background if we think of each other as a human family we have more kindness and because we don't have kindness and love and respect and gentleness in our society that's why we've got the racism and the ableism so we have a fundamental humanity issue. Correct. I know you're a big fan of Maya Angelou's work. Tell us a bit about why you love that and some of her wisdom. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite quotes is about the human family. And just to paraphrase, it kind of says we're all different, but we're all the same when you look at it.

45:11We're more alike than we are unalike, as she says. And so for me, when I think about human family I think about interconnections and how important it is that we not even that we treat each other as we want to be treated but that we understand that other people's suffering is our own suffering because of that very nature of how alike we are and that embodied relationality of what it is to be human right what it is to be human there is this thing where people talk about the century of the self where we got away from knowing that we are connected and started to individualize but you can't heal individually collective healing that we need and collective love and that right you know as woo-woo as it sounds but the collective raising of that frequency of that human potential yep and we can't do that if we're segregated and upset and angry and divided we can only reach that higher state of consciousness of love of knowledge of being of beauty yes of being neurodivergent and thriving if we are connected and being connected does not mean that we think the same correct people need to understand that yeah it's not that we think the same it's that we know that we can be different but we know together we're stronger and we're better and difference is okay.

46:38Difference is okay. Yeah. But collectivism is coming together. Yeah. And so I grew up with another quote, which was, they say, love for your sister what you love for yourself. And it's a very simple thing of, if I like good feelings and nice things for me, I want the same for you. Yes. Freely though. Yes. Like just wanting good for other people is a good thing. It's interesting because people who are listening to this obviously can't see you. And I'm struck by some of the myths that we have, the pervasive myths around autism. and some of them being, well, it's only boys and men who are autistic, white boys and men who are autistic,

47:29and autistic people lack empathy, right? And yeah, I'm sitting here and my observation of you, Warder, is you are like brimming and overflowing with empathy. I have to be. I have to be. You know, you have it in absolute spades and I can see that in your eyes based when you're talking about the fact that we need the empathy and the understanding and the compassion. And so I guess I'd just like you to speak for a second to those people listening or watching who don't fit those old stereotypes of being white, male and think that autistic people don't have empathy. Yeah, and I guess this is where representation is really important.

48:24But as a black woman, as a black woman with big hair, a small lady with big hair, etc, etc, you know, as a colourful person, I don't look autistic. I don't appear autistic. But it's very funny, because I think I'm not the only one that says that. I think a lot of people, regardless of whether they're white, whether they're black, whether they're Asian, say, actually, I don't. Because what is it? What does it mean to be autistic? What does it mean to look like? Yeah, what does it look like? What does it look like? Well, Baron Cohen would give us an example of what it looks like. And I guess this is where research matters.

49:01And understanding and knowing where this stuff comes from, so this theory of the extreme male brain, right? And so if you believe in this idea that there's this extreme male brain and men are just better at these specific tasks, And so if you are autistic, you love train spotting and Lego and being in your room and you have no social skills and you lack empathy and understanding. That is a narrative. Yeah. Oh, and if you keep testing little boys, you know, and researching against that. Yeah. Guess what you're going to find. It's crazy. So once again, on science that's linked to stuff that I'm not very much interested in telling us what it means to be autistic.

49:45And I'm really glad that those paradigms are breaking down and people like me are like, yeah, I'm autistic. I really am. Because that diversity is very important for us to understand that construction of autism. And I think we'll discover more as we go on. Hey, well, look, you can also be ADHD and autistic now. Well, imagine that.

50:09Categorization as well is a funny thing to me because it's crazy. But yeah, so not looking typically what people would expect. It has its barriers, but it's also important to remember there's no such thing as what a typical autistic person looks like. And these theories, there's time that they're debunked and we move on from them and say, actually, they're really silly. They don't matter. But they've just placed such a huge barrier in the way of people going, I can't be and you're not. Yeah, well, my GP said to me, my family GP that's known me for many, many years of my life said to me, you're not autistic.

50:42You can't be autistic. Yeah. And that made me, like, for a little while, feel like, am I like an imposter? Like, am I pretending to be autistic? Is someone going to find out that I'm not? But I don't understand why anybody would want to say that they're autistic if they weren't. I know. Like, don't you get it? You know what I'm trying to say? I share your, like, I still have occasional doubts of like, am I actually autistic? Yeah. That's the evenism though. Because you don't fit the, well, even though you're white and meld, there's another profile that you're not fitting. Yeah. And that makes us doubt.

51:21And this is crazy, this idea of construction of neat lines and neat boxes. We can just be ourselves. unfortunately though I think what I have come to find is the more that I've become comfortable with my own neurodivergence and understood it and kind of worked through some things for myself sometimes I feel like this label is more helpful for other people to understand me because I get myself now a bit more now that I'm I've dealt with some things and I understand myself a little bit more regardless of the label or the title I'm happy with being me Well, sometimes. Yes. Because I think self-acceptance is a thing where sometimes you self-accept yourself and sometimes you do something and you're like, I don't.

52:06Yeah. So it's a journey. But it makes me think about the label and the use of the label. And for me, it's because other people don't understand me when I say things or misread my eye contact. Or if something goes over my head, they think I'm being rude or people think I don't like them. I'll tell you something really silly. I had an employer once who used to have these meetings and she would crack a joke and everybody would laugh. But I wouldn't laugh because it wasn't funny. because you didn't find it funny yeah because you know that you laugh at jokes that you find funny you don't laugh because other people have found them funny I don't get that, social skills and politics and all of that but I remember one day she had a meeting with me and she was just like she thinks I don't like her and I said what gives you that impression she said well you never laugh at my jokes and I said but they're not funny do you know what I mean?

53:07but it's like people misunderstanding you yes and and then then you feeling bad yeah that you're not a good person yeah you're not a kind person you've just been honest so much this just comes back to being honest i just feel like if honesty coupled with people feeling like they can be themselves yeah some safety around that yeah but it's the conditioning around the style to normal like i've been there i've been the person like oh yeah ha ha ha let's play along and mask and and not stand out and want to fit in and seem like i'm part of the group and seem like i'm uh popular and sociable and all that kind of good stuff i've been there but actually just being able to be yourself is very freeing yeah it's incredibly liberating and and one of the best things for me it's been finding people that accept me as i am Yes.

54:05And when you are around people that accept you as you are, you don't worry about I need to tell them I'm autistic or I need to let them know about this and I might do this weird thing. So let me know. They think you're awesome anyways. and so that for me once again goes back to this human connection that we all need each other and so when you are validated honestly and truthfully and in love and in community with people you're like like I love being water yeah people around me are cool yeah with me I don't have to minimize I don't have to you know maximize I can be me and it's like okay and I think once again not to be cheesy love has been a very important part of that for me so like being in relation with somebody who not only understands my neurodivergence but champions it and is supportive about it yeah I never knew what a blessing that is yeah because you know I've always had people in my life that might be like oh you're doing that thing again yeah yeah and I feel bad and I don't want to do that yes but when you're in relationship with somebody who accept you as you are you you do more of it sure i'm more myself correct like i've never vocal stimmed so much in my life that i didn't even know i do these things because i am so comfortable and so like being in love and being loved and for you is a powerful thing as a neurodivergent person Yeah.

55:35Yeah, I hear you. What do you say to, I guess, again, people listening, watching Warder who will have kids, right? We've got a lot of our audience have children. A lot of our audience have been diagnosed because their children were diagnosed first, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that held a bit of a mirror up for them. But I know there's lots of kids that are struggling. There's lots of kids that are not autistic enough or not ADHD enough or not dyslexic enough. Yeah. What have you experienced working with parents with a difficult education system? What do you say to the parents listening? Well, the first thing I usually tell them is to have grace for your child and have grace for yourself.

56:26because there is no perfect parent journey. And so even if your child wasn't neurodivergent, you still could be having challenges. So firstly, the challenges are part of just the parenting journey. And then the second bit on that is being a parent that educates themselves is really, really a powerful thing because it's nice. It's a good thing to do because you're not so reliant on other people. so you are making use of as much information as you can get to to understand to read to be able to maybe make some of your own judgments but then the most important thing is to understand that your child is an individual and they are them and the most important thing that they need from you is love support and understanding yeah right yeah and with that said i always tell parents particularly parents who have children who are neurodivergent, children who are autistic, that child might be nonverbal or they might say, well, actually, the advice that you're giving might be good for a child that's, you know, less autistic.

57:30And I say that in quotation marks. But actually, my child has real significant needs. And I always say that you need to have hope. Hope is a powerful thing. And your child feels that hope. And if in your heart and the way that you are around that child is in any way releasing that anxiety or that fear, that also has an impact on your child. So all you can do is hope for the best, educate yourself, give them the love that they need, but also understand that difference is not deficit. And I really believe this and people should know that every single child I have ever met in my life, and I've met a lot of them, and sometimes in the worst of situations, every single child has a talent, has something that they love, has a greater purpose than we know of.

58:29And sometimes our job, maybe as parents, is to be that guide for that child. So that child knows there is more than just this. I do a lot of futuristic talk with children where they imagine themselves in the future, regardless of whatever it is. You have to have a capacity of hope for children. Possibility and hope is a powerful thing. Guidance and network is also a powerful thing. So one other important thing that I would say to parents is do not be in silo. Be in network. In network with others that have gone through what you're going through. in network with parents who are currently going through it.

59:08Yeah. And in network with parents who have come on the other side of it. Yeah. You have to be able to see what is possible for your child. And you have to be able to create that community for your child. You know, it's really, really important the communities you cultivate. And then from the other perspectives, people have a lot to say about, well, what about the speech? What about the language? One thing that you have to know is that communication is embodied. It's relational. It's different for everybody. And so you have to tap into your child as a communicator in terms of what is their best way of communicating?

59:43How do they best want to turn up in the world? And how can you increase their confidence for them to be able to do that? And so for me, I hate speaking to people. But guess what? I'm a confident communicator because I have learned to tap into that bit of me. Traditionally in school, they said you're not a great communicator. When you think about autism and language issues and all those other things, I shouldn't be able to be such an excellent communicator. But I am because I have empathy, because I have understanding and because I have hope in myself. Yes. And that's a powerful thing. On the subject of communication, I just want to touch on both your books.

1:00:30Oh, yeah. One's out there. Yeah, yeah. And the other one's coming. Yeah, the other one's coming. But I've also got another one that people might be more interested in. I forgot about that one. You see with the thing, you forget. You forget what you're doing. But yes, the one that's already out is Language, Place and Body in Childhood Literacies. And that has a collection of essays from people that are dance therapists, people that work with children globally, people that are drama therapists. and it talks about language and communication, but the most powerful thing that we have there is something called the rights of the talker, which is taken from Daniel Penick's The Rights of the Reader, which is like a really beautiful document illustrated by Quinton Blake.

1:01:15Ours isn't illustrated by Quinton Blake. It's by a person called Lo Turney, who is amazing, by the way. But we have these six kind of rights, the right to time, the right to silence, the right to not express oneself, the right to movement and gaze and a few more others. And this is really important because we want to embed very early on that there are these different communication identities. For some parents, if their child is nonverbal, it could be a sad thing because they're comparing it to all the other children that are talking lots. But your child has a right to silence. Children have a right to be listened to.

1:01:54Listening occurs in multiple ways. So what we want to do with these really simple cards is to have them in settings, to have them in homes, just as a reminder that communication is not what you think it is. It's more than that. So that one. And then my other one is called White System Black Therapist. Yeah, which is such a good name, by the way. I have to thank France Fonem for that one. It's very interesting because people say to me, oh, well, what do you mean by white system? I have to let you know it's not about white people. And we have to understand that. We have to understand that the system that we currently live in doesn't work for anybody regardless of their race.

1:02:31So let's be set. That's a really important thing because it's easy, isn't it, to go. It's me. You're talking about me. Yeah. No, I'm talking about the system that is oppressive to all of us. Yeah. To the fact that now what is a working class? What is a middle class? What is anything? Yes. So our system isn't working. And for me, I call it a white system because that's like that's just the most obvious way I can say it. But it's not about white people. But people work in systems and that's important to understand that relationality. And so for me, that book talks about standardized testing and the issues with it.

1:03:04It has some case studies, but it tells my own story of being a multilingual child who was placed into special needs groups to help with their reading and their writing and their literacy and their language. Whilst I spoke three languages at home for the age of five. And why would that happen to a child like me? because I'm racialized. Yeah. Because I'm black for whatever reason. And it's very funny that I was never diagnosed with autism or ADHD, but I was placed into a special group to change how I speak or to teach me how to speak. How do you deal with these ironies, contradictions? Hard. Yeah.

1:03:45How do you make sense of not being seen? It's hard. Or being seen but not being seen? I struggle with being visible now because it's safer to not be seen. Yeah. Like probably as a neurodivergent child, it was better to not be seen anyways. And so I struggle as an adult now sometimes to be seen. So like I struggle with when people praise me or tell me I've done well. I'm like, I don't believe that about myself. I still think I'm a bit of an imposter. Do you know what the best thing someone said to me about compliments? Yeah. Actually, it works both compliments and also negative things as well. If somebody chooses to say a nice thing and compliment you, Yeah.

1:04:28It's really rude to say anything other than thank you. Okay. Okay. Don't judge it. Yeah. Don't tell them they're wrong. Don't dismiss what they've said. Yeah. Don't minimize what they've said. It's the being seen thing, though. Yeah. I'm good at, like, very, like, I'm very, and quite genuine compliments, but it is this thing about being seen. It is this thing about being visible because you have been marked out as different. Yes. And so, like, even when you say, oh, you know, Wolder, you've written this book or whatever it is, and people tell me, oh, your writing is beautiful. I still don't believe it because from my early formation, I was told that my writing of my speech is not correct.

1:05:12Thank you. That's it.

1:05:19Your writing is beautiful, though.

1:05:25I appreciate that. Is that the same mistake? Yeah. I appreciate that. Grateful for that. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Welcome. And the other one was, unless you choose to tell me, what you think of me is none of my business.

1:05:47that's true yeah how does that one land that's true that that's true

1:05:58yeah yeah yeah you see i've got some work to do thereby just there you know you're sharing lots of amazing wisdom order so i'm sharing my tuppence back to you but back to white system black therapist that's not about white people very important yeah good caveat you are not the system that i am talking about what's the aim of that book what's the what's the what's the hope well it was to document telling your own story is a scary thing to do but a powerful thing to do because i think we learn through stories like i come from a very oral culture where stories are handed down and if things aren't written down they're not documented and it's important for the next generation because I'm not the one that's going to be like I'm going to change speech therapy but I really hope someone reads the book one day and is like you know what I'm going to try and do something and that is all I want it to be my contribution and through me being very honest and sharing my childhood experiences and my working experiences these are really intimate hard things to write about and I actually didn't know they would affect me so reliving things with knowledge that you have now is it can be very traumatizing in some ways.

1:07:16But it's important to write this because I'm at a stage in my life where I'm okay and I'm happy and I'm healthy, but there are some people who are not. There are some people who don't make it in our education system. There are some neurodivergent people who are not here today. This is important to acknowledge. So I hope that through writing my story and these experiences and tying it into this academic work, but also something that is accessible, is important to be able to write for everybody. I want parents to understand when they sign consent forms for their children to see the ed psych or the speech language therapist, what they are allowing to happen, positive and negative.

1:07:58I want you to be aware of the language of reports or how your child is labelled, how they are framed. This could be something that they look back on. Yeah. So it's very important that when we intervene in our children's lives, it is in the most positive and affirming way. Because I was a child who was tested as a child. And I know what that feels like. Yeah. Like I know what it feels like to fail. And not because I lack any ability, but because the tool doesn't correctly measure my ability. Sure. You know, and so because I know that so deeply and I know the impact it has had on me. Right. I don't want that to happen to others.

1:08:37Yeah. And so whether you are black, whether you are white, whether you are whatever you are, this book is really about a system that we're living under when it comes to our communication and communication is a human right and it's a freedom. And when we repress, oppress, label and make people contort to fit in because their communication style doesn't fit in with what we deem to be normal, that's oppression. Yeah. And it's wrong. Yeah. And sometimes we have to write things that as simple as what I'm saying is, I needed to write that because it hasn't been written down before. Sure. In my field.

1:09:16Yes. So. Yes. And thank you for doing that. You're welcome. I want to make sure that we touch on the language and terminology within and around the neurodiversity movement. Yeah. What do you think about it? And I'm talking, let me put your expert hat on, put your speech and language expertise hat on, order, and give us your outside looking in perspective on the language in the neurodiversity movement. I think terminology and words and language are important, but I also consider the fact that language, words, all of these things hold power, hold meaning, could be seen as gatekeeping sometimes. And when I say that, it's as in when people say, well, I don't know if I can say neurodiversity or neurodivergent.

1:10:12I don't know if I should say people of color or black or Asian. What is it? and this means that people feel scared to join in a conversation purely because they don't have the right language for that conversation but that intent is still there to communicate and so as long as we gatekeep through language use of naming and shaming and saying you used neurodiversity when you should be using neurodivergence and it's this and not that and it's not spectrum it's you know So autism and it's not person first language. It's not this and it's not that. And it's not neuro spicy or whatever it is. Those are individual preferences as well.

1:10:53So whilst we might have a consensus on how people want to be spoken about, which I agree with. Sure. When people do not understand or know that consensus or have the terminology or have the language, let's still let them in to have the conversation. because the terminology is something we can teach people. What we need them to do is understand what we're talking about. And I've always been of the opinion that I'm in spaces where as much as I know the correct terminology and some people may say a different term or something, I don't harp on that term. I harp on the message of what they're trying to say.

1:11:32And sometimes as neurodivergent people, we could be sticklers for you got it wrong and you got it right and you need to take it down. That's not the kind of world I want to live in. Because to me, that's oppressive too. To me, that's the neurotypical world I am trying to get away from, where there can't be diversity of opinion and thought. And so the neurodiversity movement is not one homogenous movement for one group of people. It's a diversity of people and we need to hear everybody. We need to hear the black voices like me, just as much as we need to hear the voices that use AAC, you know, augmentative alternative communication, just as much as those people who use BSL or ASL.

1:12:13It's a diversity of minds and bodies. And there's not one person that should be speaking for it or one group that should hold authority over it. And that's the issue we have with whether it's Baron Cohen or Uta Frith or whoever, whatever any of these things are, it's authority, people wanting to hold authority and power over what can be said and not said and as a neurodivergent person i'm not down with that yeah so i want to be free to express myself i don't want to cause any harm when i express things but if i ever do i'll be the first to apologize and learn in community but can't we have just like the word love comes to mind of like everybody's got their own individual interpretation of love right has a symbol which is a heart and it's typically red but there's no like one kind of love you know I see so much on LinkedIn and especially during neurodiversity celebration week of here's all the terms and here's what they mean yeah and I can argue for and against and I'm not saying we don't need definitions we don't need understanding of neurodiversity versus neurodivergence versus neurodiverse.

1:13:31But like you're saying, the more we police that and the more we stop people coming in and the more we have fixed... Uniformity. Yeah, we have fixed views on it. The more I get concerned that we're doing the opposite of actually what we want, which is including people. And I wonder if that comes from fear. If you've been marginalised before and have had your rights taken away and then there's this movement that comes and suddenly it's giving you back your rights or that feeling or whatever it is. And part of that is there's an element in control of the terminology and how you're referred to. Maybe there's a bit of wanting to sort out the house or whatever, organise or something based off a fear of this is the right way to communicate with us, this is the right words to use.

1:14:22To me, it's more of a fear thing than a love thing. Yeah, I think you've got lots of people within this community who want structure. They want kind of clarity. They want things to be logical, proven, defined. Yeah. And not blurry and not fluid. Yeah. And actually... And judgmental. Yeah, and they want it to be fixed. Yeah. And either you're in or you're out. We can't have that. I remember a young boy that I worked with and he was autistic. And what had initially happened is he had a diagnosis and his mum was like, you know, I don't know what that is. I want that diagnosis taken off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:15:08Okay. And so there was some conversation around, you know, this mum is really, you know, harming this child by wanting that diagnosis taken off. And why would they and blah, blah, blah, blah. judgment rather than understanding when i had a conversation with that parent about you know what was going on and why this and etc and spoke to her with care not judgment wasn't judging she told me my child is black my child is racialized in this way i'm worried about this disability label yes double disadvantage and i'm worried that you know it's another thing that is a barrier to his life. And so this parent is not against autism.

1:15:51No. She's not denying the existence of autism. Yeah. She's merely saying, I want to protect my child and I wonder how this will impact his life because I already know it's impacted. And so if we don't talk to people and help them to understand in a non-judgmental way and, you know, once I talked to that parent and I said, don't worry about that. You have what you want and whatever. let me just work with him and we'll do it six months later you know she wanted the diagnosis reinstated and she actually had a conversation with me about how she had misunderstood what autism meant for his life yes yes but i think when the perspective we have labels and therefore barriers and therefore like there's nothing good that actually can come from yeah these acronyms or these words.

1:16:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for some people who may be white and have a different experience, they might see that with a level of vitriol. Like, why would you do that? You're denying his existence. Yes. But you do not understand this racialized perspective in addition to that. Yes. So it's about seeing wider why things might be the way they are. Not judging them, but being in conversation with them. Yeah. It's all of those intersectional pieces, isn't it? Of all of that context. Yeah. Rather than, are you ADHD or not? It's more complex than that. Yeah. Are you in or not? That's it. Not that simple. Where can people find you?

1:17:24Because I feel like there's going to be lots of people with lots of questions. Well, you can find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Because I do use LinkedIn. And my name is Ward Afara. So you should be able to find me on LinkedIn. But I mean, I do have a call to action. I'm working with my friend and dear colleague, Zoya Wallington, who's an educational researcher and we want to put something together that is really dismantling some of this stuff that I talked to you about education about development we want to do projects where we are actually looking at what what strengths children already bring into environments so we can utilize that and so that type of work needs a level of support and understanding because it's not feeding into the normal work that is normally funded and so if people are interested in these ways of thinking and working it'd be great to collaborate to find out more about other things and just for you to know that these are the things that we're working on we're working on possibilities in childhood I've done a lot of research researching deficits and negative things I'm at a stage in my life where I'm doing joyful work that's impactful for families and for children and that's the type of research and work that I want to dedicate my life to at the moment and so Zoya and I are like putting this thing together called rounded yeah so just look out for that yeah great thank you order last question okay we have our green dots you are sporting one as am I and we're going to give you a second one but I'd like to know who you would like to give this second green dot badge to yeah I'd like to give this to a person called Christina Brooks, who is a founder of a company called Rubix.

1:19:09And Christina is an incredible human being, one of the kindest, most helpful people I know. She also has a child who's neurodivergent. And Christina is just one of those people who champions you, who puts people into positions, who is caring, who's philanthropic, who is personable, who is just absolutely amazing. and her child is absolutely incredible and so is she. So she's just someone who inspires me. What a glowing review that is. She is. What a lovely thing to say. Thanks, Warder. I've really enjoyed talking to you. I'm leaving feeling bright, positive, hopeful, not drained. I'm feeling like, come on, we need to do this.

1:20:02So thank you for your time. and your brilliant words. Yeah, and thank you so much for having me and for creating space for this type of conversation because it's so, so important. So for you having this platform and the type of work that you're doing and the levels of positivity that it should help cultivate that critical consciousness that I was talking about. So thank you.

1:20:31That's it for today's episode of The Hidden 20%. But just before you go, a favor. The Hidden 20 % is a charity and we do this to bring you the truth, the latest research and the real stories that matter. So if this episode spoke to you, then please hit subscribe. And if you can, donate via the link below. Finally, a big shout out to you all for listening and our brilliant team who make this all happen. Phoebe, Charlie, Kristen, James, John, and the guys at TYX Studios We'll see you next time.