Gemma Styles on ADHD, Depression & Finally Understanding Her Brain

0:00Well, put it this way, since I got my ADHD diagnosis, I haven't had a severe depressive episode in all the years that have followed. So I do think that's the reason why I'll come out and say it. Welcome to The Hidden 20%, our neurodiversity charity on a mission to rewrite the future for people who think differently. Together with you and an eclectic range of brilliant guests, we can break the cycle of silence by smashing outdated stereotypes, exposing the myths, and sharing the most up-to-date truths about what it really means to be just different, not deficient. The best way you can help is really simple.

0:41Subscribe so you never miss an episode, and if you can, donate to our charity through the link below. So enough preamble. I'm Ben, your host. Let's get into today's episode.

1:00So Gemma, I read your book this morning and I read it thinking this book is so brilliant. My brain isn't broken and neither is yours is such a good phrase that I think so many people need to hear. And then I was really struck by, which I really resonate with, you've pulled in like Daniel Kahneman's in there, Freud's in there, so many amazing sources and reference points for concepts, ideologies, ways of framing why we do things. There's obviously your perspective on social media and how that plays into mental health. There's a great smattering of ADHD throughout. and then I was personally really struck by I was like oh I want a bit more Gemma in this oh yeah yeah but then which again I relate to you are private right yeah and yeah I was busy scanning with my eyes going where the the I word the I word the I word let me see where Gemma is and this and you do you bring obviously loads of your own anecdotes throughout I just got a sense of you and I got a sense of how your brain works what's important to you you know it makes sense that you were training to be a science teacher because you gravitate towards the evidence and understanding things I don't know why I'm giving you a whole book review here by the way no it's Nice.

2:30I feel like you're reading me quite well from it, which is nice, actually. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned I feel seen as a key thing we've sort of held on to over the last sort of 15 years. But I sort of relate to this in different ways. I feel really boundaried as a person. And you talk a bit about that. Why is that really important for you to acknowledge or publicly kind of say, hey, I'm actually quite boundaried? I think in terms of saying it publicly, I guess, because it's not always what we expect from people these days. And I know everyone's relationship with social media is very different.

3:09And I know it's a weird one from my perspective because I use Instagram for work, for example, and that's not the case for most people. So your relationship with it is probably quite different. But yeah, I think from the 2010s where it was very, you know, social media was quite new and it was all super polished and everybody wanted these perfect, perfect photos and everything was really airbrushed. And I mean, not that a lot of it isn't now, don't get me wrong, but it kind of swung from everything being perfect and that's what people wanted to present. So then I think it was kind of a bit of a backlash to that over the decade that followed.

3:47and now it's the buzzword of like authenticity is what everyone's looking for which I get I think that's a really like valid response to that overly curated like perfect vision of life that we were kind of trying to present at that point but I also think when authenticity is kind of like prized in that way it's easy to try and manufacture it and I think it also is a real temptation for people to overshare or feel like they have to share or feel like if they don't share every part of themselves or you know the really personal stuff that they're not being authentic how do you feel about that pressure I think I kind of really headbutt against it quite strongly I think in maybe quite an instinctive way but I don't know there's a lot of stuff that I feel comfortable talking about.

4:42So I'll talk about ADHD, for example, as we're going to do today. And I feel pretty happy talking about that at this point in my life and how that affects me and various kind of facets of my life. And why does that feel okay? Before you tell me what doesn't feel okay, why does that feel okay to talk about your brain? I don't know. I guess because I don't think I felt a responsibility to, that would be the wrong word. But I think especially because I have also talked a lot about mental health over the course of, well, my life, but also the time that I've been publicly online, if you like. I think it's been such an important part of my life to kind of look back on, especially through my 20s and all the years that I was diagnosed with various mental health concerns and on and off different medications and really struggling.

5:35Yeah, totally missed and I think about specific conversations that I had with a therapist at the time and I was talking to her about washing and using that as an example of something that I just felt really overwhelmed by and I didn't understand why and I didn't understand how that made any sense to anxiety or like why does that feel really difficult for me yeah and the fact that it's a job that's never done and like a never-ending loop is something that I find really hard to deal with but I still can't like motivate myself and get it done and I remember having conversations which now with the benefit of hindsight like that's so clearly ADHD to me that I'm like god it's so frustrating that I was saying the right things even at certain points and it still just wasn't picked up it was clear to you in in some ways right you you couldn't put a name on it or an explanation but yeah it was clear to me there was a something else yeah so even when I was treating depression treating anxiety there was always something else and it was you know oh is it a bit of a mood disorder is it a this is it a that and it's like I just knew there was something I just never got to the bottom of it and I feel like my mental health kind of continued to suffer due to that, well not due to, but like that looming question mark.

7:00I feel like, well put it this way, since I got my ADHD diagnosis, I haven't had a severe depressive episode in all the years that have followed. So I do think that's the reason why I'll come out and say it. Yeah, well like that's pretty clear, right? Yeah, feels it anyway. Does the fact that you know that you're not alone and there are so many people in your situation and they've sat in that chair and we hear from them every week that have been missed, misdiagnosed and hidden. And, you know, you come in starting to talk about that publicly and I know from what you've said, the response you get back is, thank you, does that fuel that piece of, this is okay to talk about, I need to talk about this?

7:48Yeah, it really does. And also I think the fact that I wouldn't have even had an inkling that it was ADHD for me were it not for other people, other women speaking publicly about being diagnosed in adulthood, in their 30s, in their 40s, whenever it might eventually be. If other people hadn't spoken about it, I genuinely don't think I ever would have known. Not in a way that I feel like I owe it, but I think I feel comfortable talking about it. And I think it's kind of like a pay it forward thing for me, I guess, as in like, if I can do that for someone else. And, you know, I've heard multiple times that I have done that for someone else.

8:30And I feel really happy about that because not that it's my goal to have people diagnosed with things. You know, that's not my job. That's not my role. But the fact that I know what a difference it can make mentally to have that bit of extra information about yourself, what a difference that's made to me. I'm like, if I can do that for someone else, you know, what if I didn't mention it? And then they never knew because they never heard anyone talking about it. So, yeah, it's that for me, I think, really. And then how is that different from something that you're not happy to talk about or a boundary where you're like, no, actually, I don't need to share that.

9:07Where does that line sit? And what do you not feel is OK to talk about publicly? I mean, it's usually family for me, I guess. And I think that's a tricky part because there is so much of this whole ADHD conversation maybe that is really woven into relationships and how things are at home and how it affects other people in your life at the same time. And I don't know, I guess there's some stuff that maybe I talk about, but equally, I'm very aware of what's mine to share and what isn't. I wouldn't like it if people were talking about things that were personal to me. And I think I really apply that to other people, whether or not they care as much as I would.

9:46You know, I don't want to share stuff that isn't mine. I don't want to overstep other people's boundaries. Yes. Kind of, yeah, I think it's that. I'm not a public figure like you, so I'm not in that sort of same situation to kind of know how to navigate, what to share, wanting to help people. You're talking about representation, and visibility, talking about authenticity, how did you know or do you know that you don't have to share everything? Like how do you know where to draw the line? Honestly, I think part of it's fear. Okay. And I think there's a big portion of RSD that comes into it. Literally just going through my head.

10:24Yeah, because I never want people to react to things I've said in a way that I don't like, which is impossible. But you even keep checking with me in the book. You keep checking with me that I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. You keep kind of going, I hope this is not too alarming. I hope this is making sense. I hope you're kind of following me and understanding what I'm saying. Yeah, I think I'm very aware of other people's feelings. But I think also I'm very aware of my feelings. Like I'm scared of saying something and then wishing I hadn't said it because you can't unsay it. Yeah, okay. So I think it's like there's a level of, you know, I've existed on the internet for a long time.

11:09And I think it is something that you learn fairly quickly. There's a flippancy to things a lot of the time. And I don't know, you have to learn at some point that there's also a real permanence to what you say. It doesn't feel like it, especially these days, because the speed of the content that we produce, consume, all the rest of it has ratcheted so heavily in the past, you know, decade or so. So it's a very different landscape to what it was. But yeah, you can't tell the internet something and then go, actually, I wish I hadn't said that. Can we just pretend that I didn't say that? Because it just, it doesn't work like that.

11:42So yeah, and I think that's especially, yeah, when I'm talking about family or friends or relationships or anything else, I don't want to do something wrong. I don't want to upset anyone. I don't want to annoy anyone. I don't want to say the wrong thing and then contribute to misinformation or anything like that. But I'm really just, yeah, overthinking what I'm saying all the time. Were you wary growing up of saying the wrong thing? Like, was that a feature of growing up? Maybe. I was really shy growing up. Okay. All through school. Which, yeah, I guess maybe some of that would have come in. Again, in a way that I don't think I would have had the language for at the time.

12:18There's a lot of things that I think now. I used to think, you know, is that my personality or is that anxiety? Like, who would I be? how would I be different if I wasn't such an anxious person yeah and don't get me wrong talking about ADHD I don't want to say I was misdiagnosed with depression and anxiety because I feel like they're kind of separate issues but it was like the underlying reason behind yeah thinking back to all of that time where yeah just it's just the stuff you kind of are told about yourself tell yourself about yourself and you know what's wrong with me and oh here's what's wrong with you okay well I'm trying to fix it I'm trying to feel better and it's not working what like what do I do next and it's kind of yeah I just feel like I wasted a lot of time I think there's a grief that comes with kind of late diagnosis and the kind of like I'm saying kind of a lot because I'm really trying to make sure I'm saying the right thing which I need to just stop doing.

13:15But it's the shoulda, woulda, coulda element really, isn't it? Of kind of, you know, how would my life have been different? And I don't really want my life to be different now. I'm happy where I ended up, don't get me wrong. And yeah, what if I had... It's got you here. Yeah, exactly. I saw my first psychiatrist when I was eight, right? And I've been institutionalized. I've been sectioned twice. Lots of rehabs. Lots of therapists. Lots of specialists. No one ever said anything. Ever. And I know you talk about this, that, you know, we've missed so many girls and women, partly because the stereotype was the naughty little white boy.

13:54Yeah. And I was a naughty little white boy. Yeah. And I didn't even get found. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can't, what hope was there for the rest of us? Yeah. And then I know you referenced the 2008 and actually, hold on a minute, adults couldn't even be diagnosed with ADHD until 2008, which is wild. Yeah, so it was kind of, you know, if you were missed in childhood, which I don't know if it is the majority, I'm going to say the majority of women would have been, then you just had no recourse whatsoever. And I felt like, you know, that conversation is still so frustratingly ongoing. Yeah. Oh, let's do a big review and spend all this money on checking whether it's being overdiagnosed rather than like, why don't you spend the money on helping the people who are waiting for those diagnoses?

14:40It doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't, does it? What are we up to? Like 575 ,000 people on the ADHD waitlist and 236 ,000, I think it is, on the autism one. And you know there are people on both, right? I heard last week that in a constituency or in an NHS department in Wales, there is a 100-year wait list. And I don't know how many people that's for, but that is the figure that they themselves are putting on how long it would take them to get through the backlog. That's wild. You know? But what a scale of a problem to try and come up against. And then it is just a frustration of like, okay, well, what do we do about that?

15:25Yeah. Like, why are we still checking to see if the problem's over-diagnosis? Like, that doesn't help those people. Because even if it is, some of those people might be assessed and they'll say, okay, actually, you don't have ADHD or you're not autistic. You know, it doesn't really help the problem if you're still not doing the assessments to begin with. No. Your diagnosis was more inattentive ADHD. Yeah. Correct. Can you explain for those people maybe listening or watching who don't know, because we just keep it at this top line banner of ADHD, what that means for you and for women and girls?

16:02Interesting question, because I actually think that even though the inattentive type is the diagnosis that I have, so basically just, you know, there's inattentive, hyperactive, and then combined if you have both. so from my diagnosis being inattentive type you'd kind of get from that that I don't have the hyperactive side to it but again even that I think in the criteria at the moment and I've read a lot of people a lot of women talking about this is I think it's just where the hyperactivity is and I'm not running around all the time I'm exhausted all the time because because the hyperactivity is so internal and I think that just reads so true for me that I've read and heard spoken about a lot but yeah like so many of these things I think you can pick and choose and say well I relate to some of that and I relate to some of that so does that mean that's me or am I just relating to a small part of it is it affecting me enough that that would contribute to my diagnosis if you had asked the same question in a different way and it was more about thinking patterns and you know where does the hyperactive kind of energy go if it's less physical and outward and movement based and more internal because I actually feel like I definitely definitely strongly relate to a lot of the inattentive kind of like symptoms that you'll talk about but when I think about the day-to-day of how my ADHD feels it feels more hyperactive okay than inattentive okay talk about that hyperactivity a bit purely I think in terms of the the mental not in a monologue this is one of the things I talk about in the book I don't kind of hear a voice running through, I don't think.

18:04I just feel like the silent noise never stops. And I can't continue a train of thought to the end because I've jumped off and gone somewhere else. And I get that that is the bit that you would probably call the inattentive. You know, you struggle to keep things positioned in one place or however you want to describe it. But it feels energetic. It doesn't feel like I'm not paying attention. It feels like I'm paying attention too quickly to too many different things at the same time. Okay. So, yeah. But your book tells me multitasking is not a thing. Can't be a thing, right? And you would think that the logic of that would mean that you would just stop trying.

18:42But I mean, if I could, yeah, if I could focus on one thing for long enough to get it done and then actually get off my ass and do it, that would be a miracle in itself. But do you think your brain is fast because you have a lot to do and you're busy? No. Okay. Honestly, no. And at times, sure. And if I only felt like this on a day that was really busy, you'd be like, well, fine. That's just, you know, like a reaction to what's going on. But I can have, you know, an open day, like an open weekend day. And I don't wake up in the morning and go, this is relaxing. It's just still there all the time.

19:21Yep. But it's internal. Yeah. And obviously the criteria is all about the presentation of it, right? And what you can see, the jumping about and kind of expended physical energy rather than what's going on behind your eyes. Yeah. And I think if you look at me left to my own devices, I'm like sitting still in one position on the sofa and it looks like I'm very still, not much is happening. It just never feels that relaxed and relaxing. I think if I was physically moving at the same speed that my brain was trying to move, I would short circuit within a day. What are you like in a crisis? How's your brain in a crisis?

20:04Practical. I think kind of good in a crisis, partly probably because I feel like I've thought through what the crisis might have been ahead of time a lot of the time. So I think in terms of being prepared for things. This has already happened. I've already imagined your worst case scenario. I know what's going to happen in that situation. Let's just talk about that for a little bit because I am the biggest critic, right? You're never going to be able to say anything worse than I've already thought. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. That really prepares me, I feel. It's not necessarily that I believe it, but I've already thought it.

20:42Yeah. Do you do that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And what does it do for you? I don't know it does anything good. I think, yeah, preparedness wise, I suppose, you know, if you've already thought the bad things that people might think about you, I don't know, if they were to say one of those things, you'd think it would make it hurt less. It doesn't. Yeah, I don't know. I think more than being practical, it's probably just me torturing myself needlessly in all honesty. What did you think people might say about the book then? What was your scepticism around your book? It's interesting, actually, to me that you were saying earlier, you were like kind of looking for a bit more of me in it because I was like very clear from the beginning that like it's not a book about me.

21:26It's so not a book about me. It's called Why Am I Like This? But you're supposed to say that, not me. I'm not talking about myself. No one wants to hear me talk about myself. I'm not interesting. I don't have anything good to say. I'm not an expert in things. Listen to all these other people. Yeah. Don't think that I think really highly of myself because I don't, by the way. I think so, so badly of myself all the time. Don't worry, you don't have to because I already do. I think it's that kind of, I don't know. Did Penguin not say anything about that to you? Did no one pick that up on, you know, challenge you on that?

21:59I mean, it's kind of like, it's just, it's not what, it's not what I was looking to do either, I guess. Of course you weren't. No. I wanted it to be helpful for other people rather than it being like, I don't know, a self-indulgent thing. I'm like, why would anyone want to read a whole book about me? Like, it's boring. You want to read about yourself? Of course you do. We're all interested in ourselves and how we work. But, yeah, I don't know. How do you square this relationship with being – I'm asking these kinds of questions because, again, on a much tiny, minutiae level, I really – I relate to the sense I have about you, which is this tension between you want to speak up.

22:46I can see you have a strong sense of moral justice, right? You care about the environment and you care about people's rights and you're willing to kind of speak up on those things. But then you also don't want to make it about you, but then you do want to speak up. Yeah, it's hard. It's tricky and I feel like I end up being able to reach that barrier and talk about things when it tips over the threshold and I'm like, well, this is going to help other people to talk about this. Okay. So when that is there. Yeah. I think that kind of like gets it across the line for me. But when it's too much of just talking about myself, the instant voice in my head is just no one cares.

23:28Oh, okay. Like nobody cares about this. Well, you know, it'll be like tiny little things as in, you know, you scroll on Instagram or whatever and people are always sharing like the tiny little details of their lives. Yeah. And I love seeing that. I like seeing that from other people. It's like, oh, what did you buy from the supermarket? Oh, that looks good. Just, you know, like the little nosy little details that we all like. Whereas if I was sharing that, I'd be like, no one cares. No one cares about you. Like, no one gives a shit. Like, why are you saying this? Like, who is this for? People are going to look at this and be like, I don't care about you.

23:59Like, that's how I feel. That's quite sad, isn't it? But I think you've sort of answered your own question there. Like, people want to know you, right? Yeah. like more than what you do. And I, and again, like tiniest of little sample sizes, when I post something personal, it performs way better or people seem to engage with it more than when I post something professional. Yeah. And what I spend most of my time wanting to post is professional things. Yeah. Not personal things. Yeah. And I'm annoyed about that. Yeah. It is annoying. It's like, here's my work. Here's stuff that I'm working on that I think is really interesting.

24:46Yeah. Why don't you give a shit about that? Instead of like, here's a picture of like my daughter hugging a tree, which she loves to do. And that is... Yeah, it's cute. But it's... I don't really want to post a lot of stuff like that. Yeah. Surely, when you talk about you, you will know that you get more people are engaged even like let's say when you talk about ADHD more people are engaged than when you talk about I mean I'd be more engaged with you going to the to the wetland center because I found that more interesting great I love by the way but more people are going to engage with you when you're talking about you than when you're talking about the wetland centre.

25:32Am I right? Yeah. Right. Even just, you know, algorithmically. Yeah. But like, I'm kind of getting the sense that you kind of feel the same way as I do. Like there's a kind of indignation that I feel about that because why is it that way? It's birds. It's birds. Like, birds in the nice possible way are more important than Gemma Stiles. Yeah. In all the ways. Doesn't even need to be a nice way. Nappies in landfill. Yes. More important than Gemma Stiles. Yes. Thank you. I'll say it. What is the reaction you get talking about ADHD with your community? How has that journey been? I guess the people who I end up speaking to off the back of those conversations are the people who are affected by it, kind of common sense-wise, I guess.

26:23So the people who either have ADHD themselves or are maybe suspicious of it in themselves or very often parents are worried about their children and don't know how to support them. Like there's a tricky one that I find. I mean, any interview or podcast or anything that you do, I feel like this one's going to be a bit different. It's always kind of, you know, what are your top tips? I feel like sometimes what comes off the back of that conversation is stuff that I don't know how to answer. either. Yeah, yeah. Do people put you on the spot? Put it like expert advice? Yeah, sometimes. Where do I go?

26:57What should I do? Yeah, and I'm quite open in saying I don't have an answer for that. But I think, I mean, obviously it just goes to show people are just really desperate for this information and it might be a parent of an ADHD child who's saying, you know, how do I parent them? And I kind of have to go, my kid's two. I've never done this before. I've never been a parent of a neurodivergent child like I don't really know how to answer that and even to be honest thinking about what would I have wanted my parents to do given that I was an ADHD child they just didn't know about it like I don't feel like I was badly parented there's not a lot of stuff that I would have wanted them to change I was very supported but we just didn't know I can have the oh yeah it is annoying that people didn't get assessed or that I didn't get assessed when I was younger but then And also I know why.

27:51Yeah. And I can rationalize and intellectualize why. Yeah. And so you quite quickly get to the point where you go, I'm not sure if there's any point in having strong feelings about this because we didn't know. Yeah. I don't know if that's a bit of a therapy hangover for me, to be honest, because I think that was a lot of, yeah, the like thought pattern recognition was quite a lot of the work that I did in therapy for myself. So yeah, I think maybe it is kind of an extension of like recognizing when a train of thought or like a looping thing that you get stuck on is actually really not helpful.

28:27Or you can, yeah, I feel like logicing my way out of kind of repetitive, anxious thoughts in particular was the best kind of coping mechanism that I learned for that. So I think I probably do apply it to other things. I can weirdly compartmentalize certain things in terms of, like, if I know there's something I'm going to be really anxious about, I'm better than I used to be about thinking, right, there's no point being anxious about that now. Like, I fully will be and I can have a complete meltdown about it closer to the time. Yeah. It's always going to be there. I'm always going to be stressed about it.

29:06it will be really anxiety-inducing at the time, but leave it till the week before because I can't do anything about it now and kind of shut it down a bit more. I don't know if that's actually a healthy way to deal with something or not. No, but I do, there is a bit of CBT kind of style stuff to that of rationally and very pragmatically thinking something through to kind of be like, why am I worried about this today when it's happening in two weeks? Yeah. Let's talk about anxiety. I'm anxious most of the time. I didn't really know that word growing up, though. I kind of heard the nervous word, you know, why are you feeling nervous?

29:48I didn't really understand anxiety. How do you put ADHD and anxiety together? I think a lot of what I would have called social anxiety, I would now probably apportion a good amount of that to what I would now describe as RSD. I think the anxieties that I would have felt about certain things are kind of preempting my own feelings and think like that's going to be difficult rather than sometimes being anxious about the actual thing itself. Yep. Are you anxious in social situations? Yeah, I can be. I think sometimes weirdly I'm better in a situation where I kind of don't really know anyone and then you can sort of almost just get on with it.

30:30I mean, what about where it's a thing and everyone knows who you are? Oh, awful. Awful. That must happen to you all the time. People like. Not as often as you think I don't go anywhere. Think they know you. You don't go anywhere. Yeah, fine. But yeah, I guess, yeah, the opposite of that is when I meet people, which has happened multiple times, and they're like, oh, you're just what I thought you would be like from online or from your book or from whatever. And I really like that, partly because I don't feel like I throw a huge amount of myself, like I'm not pouring blood into everything that I put online, you know, in terms of, I think I try not to overshare on a lot of things.

31:13But I think feeling like people still get a good sense of you. Yeah. Which, yeah, I think is why I liked what you were saying. You were like, you know, from your book, I got the sense that you're this and you're thinking that. I'm like, yes, yeah, this is good. I like, you know, being what I feel like is kind of well read by people, even though you're not sharing all of like. The details. Yeah, every single little detail. Yeah. And I think it's kind of, it's good. It's a good example that you don't have to do that. But also, yeah, it feels nice for me that I don't then feel like I'm lying to people.

31:50And I don't know, it's nice to think that, you know, you can still be known without having to do it in a way that feels uncomfortable. Yeah. But then the other side of that is I'm constantly wishing that I cared less and would just say more and kind of not overthink things before I say them. And it's kind of. So then where does the RSD, how have you understood that? It's something that I think over time, I'll give more weight to the RSD thing now than maybe I would have done. And I would have thought, oh, you know, it's it is more of the social anxiety. I think the fact that I can go through so many of these things and kind of logic through them, this one I can't.

32:40It doesn't matter how much logic I apply to it. And it doesn't matter that I know full well, not everyone's going to like you. You don't like everyone. It's exactly the same. You don't owe everyone likability. And it's fine to have opinions and everyone's different. And I believe all of these things so deeply. Yeah. And yet it doesn't help the way that I feel in a way that's completely different. Like it helped with anxiety and it helped with some negative self-talk. There's a lot of ways that thinking through things logically has helped me with. But the way that I react to criticism, I guess, or like people not liking me or, yeah, well, rejection, I guess the clues in the name.

33:27It doesn't help how that makes me feel. Do you deal with it differently now than previously before you were diagnosed? I think I'm probably a lot nicer to myself about it. And it probably doesn't escalate in ways. Because before I was diagnosed, and to be fair, it's not like this is something that happens every week. I don't think I'm oversharing enough information to have this kind of happen every week anyway. But I've definitely had it before where I can remember just being in floods of tears, like inconsolable tears from feeling like someone had misunderstood me and thought I was a bad person.

34:05And thought that I thought things that I don't think and thought that I was bad. I don't know. And it's kind of the depth of how that like cuts me deep. Yeah. It's a lot. How do you think about that with being a mother? How does rejection sensitivity dysphoria come into it? because I tell you what, I'm rejected by my children on a daily basis, right? Yeah. From the not listening to me, asking them to do something. Yeah, they're all those like really small, but they cut deep, right? I think it will probably get harder as she gets older. I feel like, but you know, I've had that from a two-year-old where they go, oh, I don't want mummy, I want daddy.

34:49which took a long time by the way but it comes for us all but I think yeah even that I'd kind of prepared for it in my head beforehand somehow like I was aware that I was going to feel some kind of way about that yeah I think mentally I must have been some sort of anxious about that because I kind of knew what I was going to say already and it's in my head it's like you know they say oh I don't want mummy I don't like mummy today yeah I say that's okay I love you anyway and that's it and it's kind of yeah just kind of breeze past it i guess but like the fact that i had even like briefed myself for that ahead of time mentally it's kind of i'm like wow like you you worry about shit like this is a lot what purpose do you think overthinking serves you i think it's supposed to make me feel safer okay and this is just me kind of trying to like biologically analyze myself like what like why would this possibly be the case i think it's supposed to yeah keep me safe yeah stop me having to feel negative feelings about things i think practically it doesn't really do that much for me the things that i have found most annoying and irritating the kind of messages around you'll see and i've had them purchased for me before with all the best intentions.

36:10You get like, you know, little trinkets in a shop and it's like a thing to hang on a wall that's like worrying about something is just suffering twice. And I'm like, well, yeah, if I could just choose not to do it, then I would. Like, yes, I know I'm suffering twice. Poor me. It's just the kind of, yeah, I don't know. It's just, I wish that I didn't do that. And how do you talk to yourself? What was that voice like in your head in your 20s? versus now way more unkind and yeah like the full what's wrong with you why can't you cope with this everyone else seems to be coping with this why can't you just do that because it's so simple it's all so simple it's not you know I'm not trying to split the atom I'm just trying to like get through my normal whatever it is life all the things that should be really easy and I didn't even have any words for why they were difficult or what I was struggling with even like the things that now it's kind of just like the language that I feel like you learn post-diagnosis it's like someone just like hands you a new dictionary for your own feelings and it's kind of like oh now I might be able to describe something like oh I struggle with transitions like I wouldn't have clocked that about myself like I don't like what does that even mean before you're able to apply that to your own life and like yeah the silly ways that you know you're tired and you know you want to go to bed but still like an hour and a half later you haven't just stood up and gone to bed it's like it's the stuff that just doesn't make sense until you have language for it yeah but yeah it's the stuff that I guess has been the most helpful like I just don't feel like you're so alone with maybe as well that there is a kind of oh that's the thing that people do yeah like there's a name for that like that's an actual thing that there's a name for it's not just me being really annoying yeah and i like the kind of adage that people always say you know it's the difference between knowing you're a normal zebra not a weird horse that one i really like that one because i think that yeah sums it up in in such a brilliant way that it's just what's the point of a diagnosis if you're not going to go on medication for example it's kind of I think so much of it is mental the self-talk thing you know so many people are waiting such a long time for a diagnosis that it's like yeah it should be a good thing if people are able to kind of like have these suspicions and like apply some of that more positive talk to themselves anyway yeah but you know I said to my psychiatrist when I was diagnosed I was like I feel like I've like tricked you into it somehow like i feel like i'm just so bad at everything that somehow i struggle to the same degree that someone with adhd would have even though it's all my fault yeah which yeah you've tricked them i know which he was just kind of like you know give me some credit like i'm trained for that i've seen i've seen you guys walking through that you all say the same thing by the way.

39:18You all think you've tricked me. It's so frustrating and I think it is a thing that I've read more commonly from women, but it's just like guilt and shame and exhaustion that seem to be the underlying background noise to everything. How do you feel about your brain now? I understand her more. I can give it more leeway. And I think it's kind of like the difference, I guess, between speaking really negatively to yourself and speaking much more nicely to someone else. Yeah. To kind of like try and separate them out in that way. Yeah. Do you like your brain? No. Oh. I don't think so. I'm sad to hear that.

40:02I know, same. And that was just quite an instinctive answer. I don't know. I think there are like... You didn't even hear me. There are... That's so interesting. Did you hear what I said? Sorry. I said, I like your brain. Oh, thank you. And you just kept talking. Sorry. No, you don't have to apologise. It was more like, oh, Gemma doesn't like her brain. I was gone. And then I'm giving her a compliment and she still can't even hear that. And it's only us two in the room. Yeah, I find it hard to take the compliments in. Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you like your brain? I don't know. I think for me, I know you'll always hear a lot of the kind of, you know, ADHD is a superpower conversation.

40:40Let's not have that one. Well, we can have that one. Sure. I mean, I... What do you think about it? I respect it for people who feel that way. Yes. If you feel that way, I'm genuinely so glad for you. Yes. I have never felt that way, whether it's ADHD or whether it's just... I haven't felt that way about my own brain. I don't thank it for what it puts me through on a daily basis, quite frankly. I don't really feel like it makes me better. Okay. I think it's just something that I fight against and try and like, yeah, it's the traits. It gives me the traits that I don't like about myself. I feel like I've been sitting here.

41:18I'm like wrestling with your brain a bit. What's going through my head is wanting to go, you write a book. Like, that's a really good thing. That's a good thing that comes from your brain. Yeah. Why is it so hard to, yeah, focus on like accomplishments? I don't know. It's like writing the book. I am really proud of myself that I got that done. But when I think about getting it done, I'm like, you didn't make that easy, did you? I don't know what it's. Yeah, I'm so, yeah. But I relate to it. I relate to it. This has just turned into therapy now for me. These are the conversations. This is the level of like, yeah, that my therapist would get like, yeah, what?

42:00I just, no, I don't. I'm not good at things. Yeah, but I think I've just said it. Yeah, but is it? Well done. Yeah, thank you, but I didn't or you should have seen or I made that wrong or whatever. I couldn't get through writing a book like most people write a book. How do most people write a book? Well, apparently. Apparently. Most people, you know, it's kind of you get the, well, either you just start writing by yourself. How people motivate themselves to write a book with nobody checking whether they're writing a book. Yep. I have no idea. Do you like deadlines? I hate deadlines. Okay. And I need deadlines.

42:37But I think because I had had the diagnosis and felt a bit more kind of confident to advocate for myself, I said right from the beginning, like, if you just leave me and say, come back in a year with the first draft, I won't do anything for the first 11 months. And then I'll panic. And this just won't be a good outcome. This won't work. Like, I'm going to need shorter deadlines than that. And I'm going to need to like be in touch a bit more. Basically, someone needs to check whether I'm doing my homework or I won't do it. So, yeah, I'm grateful in that regard because otherwise I just, I don't think I would have got it done at all.

43:12But, yeah, I feel like I definitely made things difficult for people, you know. It's also... How do you know that? Well, I tell myself that or I ask them to work a bit differently on things for sure sometimes. What do you mean work a bit differently? You would generally go through a bit more systemically, I guess, work on one chapter. at a time, hand it over, be done with it, go and work on another one. And that's even when I've asked to break it down more. Whereas... How did you do it? Oh, scatterly. And yeah, I think putting myself in the shoes of the person trying to edit me, I'm like, oh, sorry, sorry about that.

43:54Because I'd have a chapter that I'd be supposed to be working on and have to kind of be like, I'm just, I'm not feeling that right now. Like I've just written a load about like data and research and whatever and here like i need a break from this now i can't think about this anymore so i can either do no work today yeah or this week or whatever or i can skip back to a different chapter can i just go and do another one yeah and it would be people kind of going right okay can you just like keep a list of which bits you've been working on this so i can kind of yeah people trying to chase down what i was actually working on it's lucky now 200 chapters.

44:28Yeah, right. Would you write another book? I would love to. As much as it's kind of soul destroying in the process of it, it is something that I am really proud of and I would like to do again. But I think it would have to be the right thing for me because otherwise... A memoir? Oh God. Can you imagine? What would I write about? I'm not interesting enough to write a memoir. Who am I, Lily Allen? What needs to be true for you to be absolutely firing? As in like my most kind of productive? Yeah, like you are in the absolute zone and you are feeling at your best. What needs to be true? I think I need to have slept well.

45:14Okay, so not today then. Not today then. Honest answer, it needs to be a very particular window of a hormonal month. Yep. because sometimes it just doesn't work. It just sends you off entirely. Where would I want to be? I'm picturing myself at a laptop for this. I don't know if that's where I should be. Nobody else has any opinion on this. Nobody else can say anything is right or wrong. No one is marking this work. No one is judging. You can say absolutely what you want, how you want it. So is it what I'm saying or just what I need the conditions to be able to think? Yeah, what you need to be able to, it might be to sit and write.

46:00It might be to think something through. It might be to be an amazing parent, amazing friend, do some amazing work. What are those principles that you talked about? One, sleep. You need to be rested. Yeah. Good one. When I actually picture this. Yes. for what I need to be productive, my head goes to, I need to have just eaten something with quite a lot of sugar. Which is a funny one, because I guess I think that was like a self-medicating thing for me for a long time. I feel like that's kind of like what stimulant medication is supposed to do. I just eat Skittles instead of that, which is almost definitely worse for you, but works in some cases.

46:45People I've worked with for a long time, if we've got like really long work days for things and I have to be like dialed into one task for a very long time, will like bring me skittles. Really? Yeah. Okay. Because I kind of hit a wall and just kind of go a bit blank. I'm like, I can't, I'm, you're losing me. It should have. I'm like, I'm got, yeah. And it actually, yeah, it does help. Okay. So skittles, sleep, what else? Do you want to be on your own or do you want to be with other people? I would like to be with other people, but I would like the other people to be very quiet. What are you like on your own side question?

47:22I'm quite happy in my own company. Again, it's like I don't know if part of that is because there's nobody to like see me not doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing if I'm not doing them. Yeah. I think there's... This mythical like overlord that is telling you what you should and shouldn't do. Yeah. Yeah. There's a nice like break in not physically being with other people. Yeah. Where like they can't see that you're not doing the washing up that you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. I think it's like it's like a shame break. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you outside or inside? I'm going to say inside.

47:57Only because I don't want to be too hot or too cold. OK. Let's talk about the too hot or too cold sensory aspect. Yeah, I'm not good in extremes of temperature. Okay. I don't like extremes of noise. Okay. I don't like too many different things making noise at the same time, even if they're not extreme at all. So in terms of what needs to be true for you to thrive from a volume perspective, are we talking quiet? Are we talking headphones? Are we talking background music? What's that soundscape? I like, I need background something. I quite like background TV. Oh, okay. Almost more than background music.

48:44I like having background music. If it's music with too many lyrics, I listen to them too much. Okay. Where's your phone in this mythical picture? If I'm being mythically productive, it's probably just kind of around somewhere on the table, but I'm not engaging with it, I guess. And how do you feel about your phone? I feel pragmatic about my phone I want to say I don't like it a lot of the time I keep myself off it as much as I can particularly now I've got a two-year-old in the house I just don't let myself be on it all the time and when you have to be on it for things feel a bit guilty about that but equally the thought of not having my phone at all panics me a bit because if there's an emergency of some kind yeah i want to know about it yeah i feel like the last time i turned my phone off off was maybe like 10 years ago when i'd gone to the theater or something and i thought i'm not just going to put this on silent i'm actually going to turn it off i'm at the theater i'm going to turn mine off off off and then i switched it back on again someone was in hospital and i had that answer my phone really never turn it off again really yeah not to let that stress anyone else okay and then my yeah my head's immediately gone oh you're gonna make someone really anxious with that someone's gonna listen to that and they're gonna get really anxious about turning their phone off that was selfish of me to share that how very dare you i know i just i find it so interesting that's where your head goes you know it goes straight to that not oh yeah i wonder if john's all right actually he was in the hospital wasn't he 10 years ago what was i seeing at the theater it's like oh shit what happens if someone listens to that Yeah.

50:31Is that weird? No, it's not weird, but it's interesting that your head immediately kind of goes to, am I going to hurt someone with that? Is it cause offence or trigger someone or worry someone? Yeah. Do you feel like you're someone with lots of empathy? Yeah, I think so. I think that is one of the things that after a fair bit of reflection, I think the worry and kind of overarching concern about either upsetting someone or pissing someone off or saying the wrong thing. I think even though it's maybe come from quite that sort of fearful place, I think it has over the course of my whole life kind of like pushed me to try and understand more about other people's feelings and experiences.

51:23the things that other people go through that I might not have experienced or relate to particularly. I think it probably has through sheer kind of practice at predicting what other people are feeling. I think it has made me a more empathetic, maybe more compassionate person. Yeah. Let's talk about ADHD and social media. Where have you seen ADHD and social media being really good bedfellows? Where have you seen that being really helpful? for people i think the kind of community sort of shared experience element and that's something i'll kind of always come back to that in a positive way because i think were it not for other people other women talking about their own diagnoses i i don't think that i would have found that for myself and that's something i'm really grateful for so that for me is kind of an undeniable kind of yeah it's like that is the big positive of talking about these things and then after that point of diagnosis when you kind of like dial into more of the community stuff not even it having to be a two-way street i guess but you know that thing called i think it's like the frequency illusion where you see something once and then you start seeing everywhere it's the buying a red car and then suddenly you see you know everyone's got red cars yeah exactly like that but that is a psychological thing like you just are paying more attention to something so i think that is a good thing because you know it helps you feel or has has helped me feel and i'm going to apply my experience to everyone else but i think it's fair to say you know it helps people feel seen and you know that kind of thing that we all want yeah so i think it's really good in that way negatives wise i think the algorithms and all these short form video is a big one it's an attention economy and when you are maybe someone who has slightly less control over where your attention goes it can feel easy to kind of feel a bit picked on by algorithms you're like can you just make them slightly less effective so I'm not sat here yes an hour and a half later and I it's like two seconds have passed yeah I don't even know what's happened yeah I have put one of those apps on my phone that blocks me from using say Instagram at certain times of day yeah how do you separate sort of social media, personal and professional?

53:41Do you separate those things? I don't think I separate them that much, but I think for me now, social media feels like work. Okay. In terms of if I'm posting anything, it feels professional. Yeah. I guess because it's just quite hard to separate. But has there been a shift there? Has that morphed or or changed in terms of how you feel about that? Yeah, probably. I think so. I still use it very personally in terms of if you're sitting there scrolling, I'm not treating that as a work exercise. That's just like anyone else. I'm just scrolling on social media. Yeah, I think when I'm actually putting anything out, it feels professional now.

54:26But I think my instincts for it have changed quite a lot. Like it just isn't my instinct at all anymore to share things online. in terms of if something's happening in my life day to day, I'm genuinely not thinking about documenting it for social media. I'm not thinking about uploading it to Instagram. I'm sure I think people don't care anyway what I'm up to on a random Tuesday. I also don't care about letting them know what I'm up to on a random Tuesday. And I think that's an important balance, isn't it? Of before you just keep beating yourself up for like, ah, people don't care, people don't care.

55:03Yeah. there's an element of like you don't care enough to want to do something about it right and it's your choice it's up to you yeah regardless of what people want it is about how you feel yeah first yeah it's been quite gradual to get there i think but it's becoming yeah something i think less and less about which is not great in terms of you know algorithms and all the rest of that like Instagram, the platforms, whatever, they're not going to... They're not going to reward you for that. They're not going to reward you for those kind of boundaries for sure. Do you think it's a bit of a collective thing there in terms of a bit of unplugged, a bit of, ooh, this is not all it's cracked up to be?

55:45Yeah, I guess it feels like a bit of a rebellion now, doesn't it? Yeah, and I think it's also, it probably has been a bit more organic, I guess, for me in the past couple of years because I don't share my child online. the vast majority of my time I spend with my child. So it's kind of like, what am I taking pictures of? I'm taking pictures all the time. I'm just not taking pictures to show other people. They'll go in the family group chat and not on Instagram. So then even if I was thinking about it, oh, I really should post something on Instagram. I'm like, post what? I don't even know what to do anymore.

56:21Says who, though? Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Do you worry about that from a work perspective? I mean, I guess a bit sometimes. it's a trade-off I was kind of happy to make I think or it's a trade-off I can live with like I took full maternity leave from posting anything on the internet for example and yeah kind of like algorithms aren't going to be happy with that if you just vanish from yeah from posting anything for several months at a time but yeah I do kind of have to ask myself I'm like in 20 years time am I gonna think oh I really wish I'd spent more time cultivating my relationship with the Instagram algorithm when my child was like a toddler and it's that thought where I'm like no you're not going to wish that you'd done this you're not going to wish that you'd yeah been spending more time doing that than you are doing this and I know that it's easier for me to say yeah I don't know I can yeah I can I can make my peace with it and kind of be okay with that I know if you're you know trying to run a small business which you do all your sales online I'm doing it again I'm like someone's going to listen to that and they're going to think that doesn't apply to me that's not my situation you've said something wrong you're all right Gemma because you've got like 10 million followers you're okay you know what about us yeah you're not gonna win yeah yeah I'm doing it again like you're not gonna like me because I've said that and it doesn't apply to your life I'm aware of other people's lives I swear okay what really irks you about ADHD in the media or public perception like what are those one or two things that really gets you?

57:53I think the trendiness thing annoys me because what about this feels fun to you? Yeah. Really? Like, I don't get that. It's annoying because I feel like the people who you always hear saying that kind of thing, I don't know, don't have skin in the game or it's like, it just feels disingenuous. They're not trying to understand anyone. It's trying to kind of, it feels political in a way that makes no sense at all. Yeah. Or clickbaity or like just disingenuous. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting, actually. I went to a parliament thing last week, which is not a usual thing for me to do, but I went to the launch of the head-on campaign at Houses of Parliament.

58:36Yes. Because MQ are in that, aren't they? Yes, they are. Yeah, MQ are in that. Sorry, and just can you explain to people your role with MQ and what they're about? Yes. So MQ, Mental Health Research, are a charity and unlike i guess most of the mental health focused charities that you might hear about they're not a kind of like direct support organization that you would go to but they are a research focused organization so funding research into mental health and over 10 million quids worth of funding yeah trying to find actual solutions and again i'm like not belittling people who are offering support of course the support is essential They're not a support charity.

59:21What about all the other mental health charities you just dissed as well? But they're trying to focus on the research to find out what kinds of support are the most effective and all these kinds of things that you need the data to be able to support all of these things. The point of me bringing that up was there was a woman who spoke. She's an LBC presenter. Her name's Natasha. And she has done a lot of work in mental health. But it was an interesting point that she made because she was talking about the way that we talk about diagnosis and overdiagnosis and kind of all of the political elements that we kind of touched on.

59:55And she was saying about how LBC, for example, they take their cues on what they're going to talk about on the program that day from the news and news headlines. Okay. So basically the point of, well, not the point of the head-on campaign, but it's supported by this new research and polling that they've brought out saying that 75 % across political spectrums, across ages, across like all kinds of categories, 75 % of people in Britain agree that mental health is just as important as physical health. It should be treated the same, that they want the government to do more on mental health. They're pro-helping this situation.

1:00:36Yeah. But if you look at the news headlines, you would still think it was a really political issue and you would think that it was a very kind of us versus them and that we're in the minority and you're kind of shouting to be heard over general public consensus. Yeah. And like the polling and the research shows like that just isn't the case. No. But it's still the kind of narrative that you hear in the media talking about over diagnosis and talking about, oh, it's trendy and everybody wants to have something these days. Like that just isn't how most people feel. No. But then people are journalists.

1:01:16People are behind these things, you know, kind of it's what really pisses me off. Yeah. Because like a media headline and the media narrative on ADHD and autism, any of this is so powerful. Yeah. Like really powerful. Yeah. And I think it was just like a little crystallizing thing for me in terms of, you know, it's like people on talk radio who like millions of people listen to. They take their conversation starters, their topics from the news headlines. So it's not even just about, you know, one headline that X amount of people see. It snowballs and that's what then fuels further conversation and it kind of presents it as a whole big argument or a whole thing that should have a lot of attention focused to it.

1:02:04And like it just isn't even how people feel. It's such a waste of time. It's frustrating. Yeah. What's so amazing is when you flip that the other way around and go, here's something that's really powerful, that has scale, that has reach, that has influence. Why don't we use it for good? Yeah. Like, why don't we just flip it around and do it the other way? I don't know, maybe that's like bad news makes news, right? It does, and like, yeah, negativity bias, right about that's in the book. And I find it comforting to actually understand why that happens, that we are, as a species, wired to focus on the negative things.

1:02:45And, you know, we'll all talk about, oh, you'll read 10 positive comments and one negative one, and you focus on the negative one. like that's a flaw in our personality when it isn't. That's exactly how our brain is wired. Like there's a reason why we do that. Everyone does that. Yeah. But then we're conditioned, right? So then we do things on repeat. We do things without thinking. We just regurgitate stuff and just keep looking at the same stuff without going like, actually, no, I'm going to read positive news. Yeah. And people need to sell newspapers and they know that negative things sell newspapers and the cycle continues again and again and again.

1:03:18It's a weird thing, isn't it? I really enjoy talking to you, Gemma, partly because I enjoy witnessing your brain. I can see how your brain works and I can see how it works largely, I think, because it's similar to how I can see how my brain works. Yeah. And therefore, it's much easier for me to challenge your brain than it is challenge my own brain. Yes. And pick up on. That must be fun. Oh, look what you're doing there. You just judged what you've said or you've gone straight to think about what other people are going to think. This has been a good exercise in me recognising that over and over again as well.

1:03:53Thanks, I think. But I can see that you're incredibly vigilant and in a good way, by the way, just saying. Yeah, that you're really aware of what you're saying and you're aware of the power of words. Thank you for giving us your brain. Thanks for having me. And please, please keep speaking up about this because like you've said twice, you wouldn't have gone for an assessment if you hadn't seen someone else talking about this yeah my last question is going to give you a second green dot badge who would you like to give this to i would like to do a warm and fuzzy one i'm going to give mine to my mom nice because thinking back across all the time when i didn't really know what the kind of missing thing was for me and i didn't know why I found certain things really difficult my mum was a person like I could talk to about it but equally it didn't matter for her why it was difficult she would just step in and help me anyway even if I didn't really understand the help that I needed yeah she's like the person who yeah when I was living on my own in London for the first time and I'd got completely overwhelmed with everything and like my flat was just an inescapable mess really felt suffocating and overwhelming i yeah told that to my mom and she came down and stayed with me for a couple of days and helped me tidy my entire flat that's like that yeah that's the kind of support that i got even without no questions yeah yeah yeah i think that's no questions no judgment no questions minimal judgment.

1:05:35Minimal. A little bit of acknowledgement. A sprinkling. A little bit. Great one. Thanks, Gemma. Thank you.

1:05:48That's it for today's episode of The Hidden 20%. But just before you go, a favour. The Hidden 20 % is a charity and we do this to bring you the truth, the latest research and the real stories that matter. So if this episode spoke to you, then please hit subscribe. And if you can, donate via the link below. Finally, a big shout out to you all for listening and our brilliant team who make this all happen. Phoebe, Charlie, Kristen, James, John, and the guys at TYX Studios. We'll see you next time.

1:06:33Thank you.