Behaviour Change Scientist on ADHD & Addiction: Shahroo Izadi

0:00Was I relating to addicts or was I relating to people for whom addiction had become a solution to a problem they didn't have because they were addiction vulnerable? If you're replacing a habit with another without understanding why you engage in the first one in the first place, even if it's from a harm reduction perspective, it's still the case that you're reaching for something quickly, there's a problem there. So it tends to be that the intensity is increased. When I help people to change habits, essentially I just say, where do you want to get to? What does it look like? What needs to be learned or repeated?

0:25then put that to one side and just focus on the next choice that you need to make. So an ND addict comes to see you, I need to change my life. How do you guide them? Welcome to The Hidden 20%, our neurodiversity charity on a mission to rewrite the future for people who think differently. Together with you and an eclectic range of brilliant guests, we can break the cycle of silence by smashing outdated stereotypes, exposing the myths, and sharing the most up-to-date truths about what it really means to be just different, not deficient. The best way you can help is really simple. Subscribe so you never miss an episode, and if you can, donate to our charity through the link below.

1:15Enough preamble. I'm Ben, your host. Let's get into today's episode.

1:26I think this is the first time I've sat down with best-selling author, behavior change expert, psychologist, like addiction specialist. Yeah, what a treat. Sheru, today we've got a lot of things to talk about. ADHD, addiction and behavior change. there is no one better than you sat in that chair to like get stuck into all this i hope so i hope so thank you for coming on because yeah it's been a long time coming actually hasn't it it has yeah um i'm excited to get stuck in so you are adhd tell me about that i am yeah i mean you name it i'm on the sharp end of it my friend's like my friend phipps always says that if you you if you look up adhd in the dictionary there's just a picture of me that i've like forgotten to send in And yeah, I got diagnosed maybe like four years ago.

2:20Okay. In response to a couple of my friends, one of whom had been diagnosed with autism and the other one who'd been diagnosed with ADHD, who were like, there's literally no way you don't have ADHD. And then I started working with a friend of mine who knows a lot about neurodivergence. And the way she was working with me was amazing. And she was like, well, obviously, because you've got ADHD. And it was totally neutral. the same way she'd be like well obviously because you've got an arm like that or whatever and she was just accommodating it and then when I got assessed you know there's like a form your mum has to your mum has to fill out a form it had like I don't know how severe is it to one to five or what and my mum was constantly like is there a six is there a six is there a six on every single one so when I got diagnosed it wasn't a shock but then it was after I got diagnosed that as I know it's the case for a lot of your conversations everything started to make sense about the jobs I had chosen.

3:12Yes. I was even thinking the other day, my undergraduate dissertation was, why do students procrastinate? And at the time I was really smug and I thought it was like a clever sort of like, look at me, I haven't done my studies and I got away with it. But actually it was like, I was genuinely interested in that. And then my postgrad dissertation was in shame and around your mental health. And I think I was probably trying to work out like, what's the matter? And so when I went to work in addiction treatment after uni, I saw these people describing behaviors that were just like mine, except mine were with like food and maybe drugs that weren't on the sharper end of physically addictive.

3:48Yes. But like that sort of more is more, the impulsivity, the relapse, the spiraling, the intensity of it, the object impermanence, the masking, the shame. I at that point just thought this is maybe like 15 years ago when I started my work in the NHS. I started thinking I'm an addict based on what I knew at the time. I was like, oh, so what makes me different to other people who can just like have a few bit of chocolate, whatever? Yes. I must be an addict. And so I went and found those tools And they helped me to stop binge eating And binge anything Because of course they were designed for the most Change resistant people with the assumption being That they had an addictive personality Which of course we know now there's no evidence base for Just say that again for me please No no because it's really really important There's no evidence base to prove You can't guess who will be an addict We have addiction vulnerability There's some people who are more vulnerable as you know And of course I've realised now I was more in that category But at the time it served me to assume the disease model of addiction and assume the tools.

4:51Because, of course, the paradox, you know, the horrible bit is that rules make you lapse and catastrophize, but without rules, it's even worse. Yes. So the rules and the assumption that you can't just have one, even if I believe in my heart that you can, because the current you're swimming against to have one is so strong, I think are actually absolutely great, regardless of my sort of ideological stance on it. And so I just started thinking, right, I'm a food addict, I'm a food addict. And then I wrote a couple of books on how to use the same tools that addicts use to change everyday habits. Still no idea I had ADHD, by the way.

5:23And then I went on a couple of big podcasts and I was flooded with thousands and thousands of emails with people saying, ever since I got diagnosed with ADHD, this all makes sense. ADHD, ADHD, ADHD, ADHD. Across the board. Like it was just like a tsunami of neurodivergence came my way. And so I was like, oh. Even though you weren't talking about that? No. I wasn't even talking about binge eating disorder. But I was just talking about diets made me eat a lot. And it's all, I was just describing what I saw. Like I have done the studies and stuff, but ultimately I've learned based on like what's working for the most change resistant people.

5:57Yes. And I see it like in real life and I've always based it on that. And now I have these people contacting me in confidence saying, and they were so much more knowledgeable than I was because people were at different stages of understanding. So people would be messaging me being like, I totally get you because I just got diagnosed with ADHD. she and i was like oh okay and then it was just undeniable also because one of the ways that i was able to help people was that even when i was speaking to people who were on really hard drugs i am on the sharp end of change resistance i was always like why am i unshocable like it's cool but i'm not totally unjudgmental like what is it that's making me totally unshockable about this and it was because whether it was the tolerance levels whether it was the shame levels whether whether it was the duration, you know, the lack of capacity to deal with the discomfort and abundant capacity to use things that make you distract from it.

6:56I had already identified that my purpose was going to be to say, look, if it works for me, it works for anyone. Yes, yes. And I saw people who felt dependent on far more objectively harmful and difficult to come off drugs than sugar or whatever I was abusing at the time, who weren't as extreme as I was when it came to my own habits in terms of how long I could isolate for, how much masking I could do, the extremity when I would relapse and when I stopped being good, and also the extremity of how efficient and productive and the other side of it too I could be. So I just assumed I've got an addictive personality.

7:31And so now... Which doesn't exist. And now, of course, everyone around me is like, how did we even question it? Like, you are it. Yes. You know? And so it all makes sense now. It kind of helped to have like now another label, now another label. And it almost felt like, was I relating to addicts or was I relating to people for whom addiction had become a solution to a problem they didn't have because they were addiction vulnerable? Sure. And you're relating to a mindset and a behavior. Quite. And what I could see, the outcomes of it, and also the feeling of powerlessness when objectively you know that something is possible for you and you feel that it is harder for you than it is for someone else and you can't explain why.

8:10Yeah, it's not nice. So I grew up around addiction. I then became a crack and heroin user, in and out of rehab, sectioned, relapse, etc, etc, the whole spiral and vicious cycle. And I took from that experience probably, or I kind of learned a couple of things that I now believe to not be true. One being addiction is a disease, right? So drilled into me in America and here I have a disease. It's called addiction. It runs in families. Drilled into my family, Ben has a disease. It's called addiction. that's a more compassionate way of looking at it it's not my fault you know there's this thing inside me no chat obviously aboutnd nothing no assessments no autism assessment nothing so that was one thing oh and the second thing was you have to do all this work you have to be thinking about addiction talking about addiction surrounding yourself with people in recovery from addiction you have to go to na a etc you've got to join the cult if you don't go to meetings you're gonna relapse you must not hang out with people who are not in recovery you must not go anywhere that might be triggering you must get rid of any past friends acquaintances etc and kind of that's it and if you don't bad it's going to happen and then I realized like hold on minute when I'm actually good it's because I'm not with all these people and I'm not thinking about addiction and I'm not talking about it and I'm not in therapy I'm actually just building my self-esteem through esteemable acts that is the simple kind of way and so it's a really long way of kind of getting around to the fact that I now do not believe in addiction.

10:19I believe with zero evidence, apart from my own experience, that there is something in this idea that addiction isn't a disease and that actually unrecognized neurodivergence and unsupported neurodivergence is part of the reason why I looked to substances to change the way I felt or escape the way I felt. And that ultimately sugar, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, etc. are all these external kind of coping mechanisms. And I wonder what you thought about that. Addiction, definitely the problematic habits that people have when it comes to substances and that they feel powerless over, it should be seen as solutions as opposed to problems, even from a compassion perspective and also because it just gives you more insight.

11:13What I would say is that some of my experience, particularly with young people, particularly people who suffered really, really bad trauma, the damage that can be done and the stabilization that is created through the fear of what will happen if you're not totally sober, whilst it's not a lie necessarily, it's definitely saving lives. And so I think that whilst scientifically, now that I guess I can call myself someone who, you know, can say these things, I personally also don't happen to believe in the disease model of addiction. Okay. Is there any evidence that addiction is a disease? I am not the expert on that.

11:49I'll tell you, though, the person that I read on is Gabor Mate. So I am most aligned with him in that he speaks very much about inconsistency, scarcity, trauma, things like that. And I think, of course, if you're also growing up neurodivergent, invariably shame, trauma, things like that are going to come into it. So I think it becomes a bit complicated there in terms of self-soothing. So from what I understand, no. However, 12-step programs are still undeniably the go-to thing for someone in crisis. And we are talking about life-threatening stuff and this immediate community, immediate structure, immediate fellowship.

12:23Do I wish there was an alternative that maybe we should set up? Yes, because everyone's addiction vulnerable now. We may be on the sharper end. there may be fewer steps between us wanting to do something harmful and actually going through with it but we are living in a world that is frictionless now whether it's ultra processed food whether it's tech whatever everyone's addiction vulnerable now and there'll be people whether it's because of neurodivergence whether it's because of scarcity and instability in childhood whether it's because of the soothing that they've learned in response to traumatic things the way that it will manifest itself will be that there is less space between trigger and response.

13:02Yeah. So now that you talk about tech and the kind of, I guess, quote unquote, big generalization of like, we're all addicted to our phones or we're all addicted to social media. That is lots of people who are spending a lot of time on their phones, right? That may have zero other addictive behavior type issues right in their life yeah not necessarily it depends i see it reflected across the board a lot of the time okay that if you're replacing a habit with another without understanding why you engage in the first one in the first place yes even if it's from a harm reduction perspective like at least i'm shopping and not smoking for example it's still the case that you're reaching for something quickly there's a problem there so it tends to be that the intensity is increased and sometimes what ends up happening is that you pick up the alternative habit and then And you pick back up the original habit too.

13:55So now you've got two. And rather than diversifying your coping strategies, the alternative habit was a methadone of sorts. And so now you've picked up two unfavorable, undesirable habits. Yes. And ultimately, the analogy I always think about is trying to keep the ducks under the water in the bath, right? And you kind of, you get a duck under control. Oh, well, I'm looking at my phone less. Sugar. Yeah. Whack-a-mole. Yeah. Exactly. And do you know what? I notice it now. So, for example, my whole thing was for years and years and years I had a gastric band. I just couldn't control how much I ate at all.

14:26And the more I dieted, the worse it got. And I was really using food as a drug. And I lost all this weight. I ended up losing eight stone and keeping it off and all because I treated it like an addiction to food as opposed to a lack of ability to be thin. With binge eating, I worked out that when this happens or when I'm triggered in this way, the way to change how I feel is food. or either food because of like I'm getting a high off the ultra processed sugar, whatever, the dopamine, or just to change how I feel because I'm so incapacitated from overeating that it's numbed me out like a sort of gouge style.

14:59Like an escape. Exactly, yeah. What I realize now is that the same initial trigger comes up. So if I find myself on my phone a lot, like stalking other people, worrying about their lives, all that stuff, or I'm looking at my phone like compulsively, You can bet that if I hadn't dealt with the food, that's what I'd be doing now instead. Yes. So now I see it as a sort of alert. Yes. So, right, you're focused on other people. You're using your phone a lot, although losing is also true. And what must that mean? It tends to be the same things. Someone's criticized you, you know, rejection sensitivity.

15:32So you're all of it. Like it's the same stuff you were using on. Yes. And now there's loads of stuff to use on. Yes. And it's ready to be used on. And by the way, the thing about tech that is really tricky is that the efficiency with, I mean, you can relapse on tech really. But doesn't everybody have these vulnerabilities now more than ever? I don't know anyone who can really avoid now in this environment not becoming. I mean, there are people who have an off switch for sure. There are people who are able to think about the long term. I spoke to someone recently, one of my friends, and bear in mind, I don't speak to people who are like this.

16:07the hundreds or thousands of people I speak to who are not like what I'm describing to you now. And she said to me, oh, I just started, I forgot what it was, something that requires effort for a long-term health outcome that she can't guarantee. And she's like, oh, it's just good for you. So I'm doing this insert disgusting, difficult thing. Sure, sure. And I was like, that's not how behavioral change works. But you don't know that there's an outcome now or later. And she's like, I'll just take the risk. I like the idea of investing in the potential. I mean, I am. Every day is my whole life. Every hour is my whole life.

16:40The thought of that is like, where is the return on investment? Now or later? Not at all. You just want to throw this into your future? Wild. Wild to me. But that's very ADHD, right? That instantaneous dopamine-seeking, fixed validation, relief moment. I guess I relate to that because I'm ADHD, so I have that kind of impulsivity side. But I also, because I'm autistic, I love the long game. I love the I spent 14 years on one project and it only just launched last year But did you keep doing it? Yeah Did you go back to the same project? Do you remember what you've done? Yeah, I dipped in and out dipped in and out dipped in and out It kind of kept bubbling away it kept bubbling away Can I ask you which part of you executes?

17:40ADHD Really? Yeah, yeah When you're on a high? Yeah, because because being autistic i i just want to plan everything i want to work everything out i want to to make it real you know it took me two years to launch seed lip and for probably a good four months of that i worked out the plan i didn't execute the plan i just worked out the plan and that wasn't the first four months by the way so that was midway through i thought I need to know and plot out and do a lovely Gantt chart on every single action that is required to launch C-Lib. And so I did that and I color coded it and I spent four months on it and it was a beautiful piece of work and it was like a really amazing project in itself because I didn't know how to launch a drinks company so a lot of learning a lot of figuring out a lot of logic a lot of blueprint type kind of strategy and then i printed it out and then i didn't look at it again and i got on with what is the next thing i need to do to launch this that's how that's i mean that makes a lot of sense to me that's how i help people yeah that's literally the method yeah you just explained how i help people basically to get to long-term goals yeah but what's the next thing like what's the next most important thing the next best choice it's like when I help people to change habits essentially I just say where do you want to get to what does it look like what needs to be learned or repeated if you trust that whole wholeheartedly then put that to one side and just focus on the next choice that you need to make being an end in itself not a means to an end yes your win is had and then your outcome will come as a result so that's what I tell people too but the plan gets put away once you believe that a fidelity to the plan will get you the result you want once you know that in good conscience then you can just deal with the 99 % of you just going to try to talk you out of it from the next day yes and just go through the motions of the next step and that's been really helpful to me as well I mean I'm not just like a practice what I preach I'm literally like teach what I practice yeah I really need what I teach okay like yeah I really need it.

20:02I really use it. I've never had a crisis of integrity in that sense because when I know something works, I've met countless people in prison, in rehab. I don't suggest for one second that I'm battling what they're battling, but I can tell you that the extent that they can take something to isn't necessarily as far as I could take it. So an ND addict comes to see you and says, I need to change my life. How do you guide them? First of all, ND is something I kind of assume for most of the people who come to me, whether or not they've been diagnosed. Okay. Some people have been diagnosed. The way that they look at it is very different across the board.

20:36Some people want loads of compassion for it and feel it's deserved. Some people really struggle. They're still seeing it as an excuse of sorts. And so they're trying to get my help to fit into the sort of nine to five, whatever. The first thing I would do is gauge how much they're blaming themselves for it. That's a really important thing. So as a practitioner, this isn't necessarily something I would share with them. And by the way, in the capacity of one-to-ones, I work as a coach. So my specialisms in psychology, my education, etc. But it's really important to me that it's clear that in the capacity of a one-to-one, I coach people.

21:10And with that, what I facilitate is a process whereby they can identify what they are unmasked, essentially, left to their own devices. And then we can design around that so that during the initial periods of change, they have the path of least resistance. And ultimately, I think with neurodivergent people, I always say with the first plan, what you want to do is remind yourself that you're someone who can keep things up. You're someone who can keep a promise to themselves when no one's watching. You're someone who can do what they said they were going to do. So I have to make that exciting. My job is to make it compelling for someone to do what they said they were going to do.

21:47Yeah. To get high off doing something hard when they're alone and no one gives a shit whether it follows through. And so that's my job until eventually they've built an automatic habit and they've forgotten I even existed and even existed in the first place, right? Yes. So it's not a manipulative thing. It's very much like, look, the first stage has got to be built on, yes, the automation of these habits and the practicalities of it. But ultimately, when it comes to neurodivergence, especially, I help people by identifying the point at which skill building has become personal. And that's what's disrupted the process.

22:16So, for example, most of my clients believe in their capacity to learn most things. Okay Except the thing that eludes them Which is usually objectively Easier to deal with Than the things that they manage to do Okay So you'll get someone who's like I've just built a computer But I can't control myself around bread Like what's up Yeah And so A It's my job to reframe that As if it's hard for you It's hard Yes Right Yes And when we're proud of people And we feel that they're capable It's not because they can do things That are harder than what we do It's because of how far They've come from their baseline Yes That's what's impressive So I remind them of that Shame Shame gets in the way so as soon as it's the case of if i do this in a row it'll get easier so for example if i said to someone hey if you got up an hour earlier to take your kid to school every day so that they could achieve their dreams whatever and you did it would it be easier in a month yeah sure i'd do it without thinking about it and so then if i asked them what if i asked you to get up earlier every morning to do something for yourself they know it'll get easier in a month if someone forced someone they were compelled to mastery is not something that they have doubt in yeah it's their own capacity to keep things up yeah and so my job is to restore their belief and their ability to keep things up by creating an environment internally and externally that creates the most frictionless way for them to keep things up yes and to make them to keep doing things until yes the self-esteem increases etc so i don't expect people to change their minds before they change their behaviors it's quite the other way around i'll say to them go through the motions Like, do it in a row.

23:44Act as if. Treat it like French. Treat it like driving. You don't think to yourself, oh, I don't know how to do that roundabout yet. Screw it. This is stupid. Driving's stupid. I should never want to do this. Equally, you don't think, because I want to drive so much, I should know how to drive already. Yes. Right? And because I need to drive so much, I should know how to drive already. Yes. Or because I can build a computer, I should know how to drive immediately. Quite. Right? There's a fair place where you just give yourself permission to find whatever you find hard, hard. Yep. And then frame that as your Everest.

24:11Yes. And the beauty of it is that when you do that, it's got a wonderful transferable impact on your other habits. And the example that I always, always use is that I found I guess it was hard to write books. It's hard to write books. I found that really hard. I don't find it anywhere near as hard as I did to learn how to do this. Or, I mean, I'm a stammerer. I stammer. I have to. This is scary, you know, or to some of the other stuff that I've done that's super hard that other people could do with their eyes closed. Yes. But when I come in here and I'm chilled, I'm drawing from those things. Yes.

24:44If I manage to do that, knowing how hard I found that, then I can do this. And so that's what I help people to do. If you take the judgment out of it and remember that everything comes down to doing it in a row until it's easier. And usually with ADHD, there'll be a point at which there's that point of no return. I put something on Instagram the other day where speaking to someone who was saying, once I'm out of bed, it's fine, but I can't get myself out of bed. Okay. Her plan was, you know, get out of bed at seven or whatever, rather than eight. And we boiled it down eventually. And I was like, what's the easiest thing you could do that you know full well that version of you is not going to get back into bed?

25:16Like no heavy lifting, nothing. And she's like, actually, if I get a glass of water, I'm not getting back into bed. And so her task became get a glass of water. And of course, I've done that with myself. Like let the rest take care of itself. I remember I had a client a few years ago. He had been diagnosed with ADHD. He was looking for a job and he wanted to go on his Peloton for an hour every day. And he wanted to cook a meal from scratch. Those were some of the things that he had aspired to do. And so he contacted me to say, like, why am I not doing these things? I know they would benefit me and my relationship, my life and all these things.

25:48And of course, people go straight to sabotage. Yeah. And sometimes sabotage is there and it can be interlinked because of all the shame. But before you go to sabotage, make sure you understand behavioral change. Right. So make sure you've tried to do it in a row. it might not be that deep you might be thinking that desire and knowledge of a positive outcome is enough to create behavioral change which is just not a shame-based fear-based way of thinking right okay and so what he ended up doing was we boiled it down to what's the minimum so you have this whiteboard and it was like one hour peloton meal from scratch yeah apply for 10 jobs or something and by the end of a session it was put on lycra in the morning yeah because at some point today I'm going to get a wave and I'm going to get on that peloton.

26:30And not how long, because you know, you've got ADHD. Once you're on the peloton, you're not going to do the most rubbish one. What you need to worry about is tomorrow, getting back on the peloton and not expecting yourself to do the marathon you did on the first day and thinking that you've ruined it. That's your challenge, the second choice. But you know what's so good about that? I know this is a habit that I try and practice. Writing to-do lists or notes or things that I need to do, I will catch myself by writing too many of the actions back to that like, here's the whole list of things that I need to do.

27:02And instead, you can make the mental connections to being like, I only need to write, call Harry. That will lead me on to figuring out what to do about that bottle or that product or that, I don't know, other project. But the thing that will start that process is the only thing I need to worry about. that's the only action I need to take because everything else comes off that so I don't need to write the hundred other things I just need to do that one thing that's easy I can pick up the phone I can call Harry completely agree I think I would argue that that comes at a stage when you have seen yourself in enough scenarios you've gathered enough data to know that you can trust your brain to deliver so like I go through like a million different I might make a plan and be like I can't wait till Friday I can't wait till Friday I'll get to Thursday and I was like what was I thinking I hate people I hate outside no right I think what I'm learning and getting better at that perhaps you're further ahead with is that mastering like these different versions of me are going to want to do this this and this and I trust them to deliver so like today turning up now I'm in a flow kind of state right now right that means that later on I'm not going to remember what I said yeah which is going to be terrifying right it's going to be terrifying okay so what I've done is cut to the end and say, you're going to do podcasts.

28:21You want to do this job. So you're going to be terrified afterwards. So just do it. Trust your brain. And if you gather enough evidence of your brain not screwing you over, just because you're in a different mood, then the period that you spend thinking, oh my God, what did I say? Is going to get shorter over time. Not because of abundant self-love, but because of evidence, hard data. You did it. You came out unscathed Your body got the message Next And also Let it come Let the Sure No everyone's gonna think you're stupid Everything's gonna happen That was the last podcast you're ever gonna do Let it come Let it come Let it come Yep Until eventually it got shorter and shorter and shorter And I cut to the end And I also cut to the end with the suffering beforehand Should I?

29:02Shouldn't I? Should I go on the podcast? What if I'm rubbish? And it's like you're gonna do it You always do it Yes You're not gonna do You're not gonna not do the cool thing Yes Do you know what I mean? Like you're not gonna not do the cool thing So just cut to the end, know yourself and start designing for that person. Do you trust your brain? At work? Yeah. Okay. Because I'm so scared that I've been really careful. So I've got to a stage now where I trust my brain because I know what I know really well and I'm obsessed with it. And I've never not had a conversation that wants to be had. I don't want to be inundated with requests from this, but let's just say I may not have been doing it in the most traditionally scientific way.

29:43But I've spent about, I think the last count, 12, 13 ,000 hours in conversation with people just because they will talk to me about this. And so I can understand it better. So I don't have any doubt in myself professionally. Also, because I don't have any doubt in my capacity to say I'm not the expert on that. End of conversation. You know, like it's fine. I don't know everything. Yes. I also don't have doubt in my capacity in my brain and my decision making when it comes to behavior. Like behaviors of compulsive behavior. So even in domains where I do doubt my judgment and my choices massively, I am very aware of my powerlessness.

30:20And there's a lot of power in that. I cut to the end with that now. So what about trusting your brain personally? Not so good. Being neurodivergent, I've learned recently opens you up to not just abuse of substances. You're opened up to manipulation and you forget things. sometimes you're easily controlled you're ready to say something's your fault you're ready to assume something's your fault you're ready to assume you're annoying you're easy to make feel like you're lucky that someone's giving you time of day kind of thing right and you don't realize that you're a wonderful valuable thing because you're present and kind and you don't have an agenda because you couldn't have an agenda if you tried because you wouldn't remember it yeah Do you know what I mean?

31:08So some people will see that as wonderful and some people will exploit that. Yeah. And I didn't know that. And I'll just talk and talk and talk and give and give and give and give and not because I'm a wonderful person, just because of who I am. Yeah. And I don't realize other people are more careful and strategic and they have agendas and have been naive when it comes to, say, like a romantic relationship in that some of the vulnerabilities that come with these traits, definitely. And having lived with the shame of them definitely puts you in a position where I'm in the process of learning that a lot of the things that I have spent my whole life thinking bad about me have actually brought about the things that have made me of most value.

31:48You know, like the really close friendships. Like proper, proper close friendships. And for decades and the connection I can have with people, particularly people who've suffered, this is something that people aspire to have. Sure. And I was so busy, like fixing the bits of me that were wrong that I didn't realize that there were bits of value that could be exploited and targeted and identified by other people who have their own shame problems. So all that to say, I think that I'm realizing the impacts now and learning how to apply my vulnerabilities or blind spots to different domains. So like with work, through understanding the relationship stuff, like, Shaz, you have to ask questions.

32:30If something doesn't make sense, that's the beginning of the end. Yeah. And it can be dangerous. Like the first time someone sees that they've got away with something and you haven't asked a question because you think you're silly or you're too lucky already or whatever else. You've sent a message to that person. I didn't know any of these things. Yeah. And bear in mind, I've worked in health care, third sector. It's not Wolf of Wall Street, you know, up in my life. but then in work for example the other day i was in a meeting and there were a bunch of people speaking and they were super smart and i really respect them and i knew we were running out of time but i didn't get it and so i was like i'm gonna need this broken down like and of course it transpired as it always does that loads of people didn't get it yeah like of course it did and they were grateful for the you know the extra time spent making it clear and step by step but i wouldn't have said that before i understood my vulnerabilities in a relational domain.

33:21Yep. Because I didn't realize that some people benefit from you not getting it and assuming that you don't get stuff. So now I'm not cool with that. Yeah, I fully agree with you. The books you've written, the people you've helped, the degrees you've got, all of this learning and knowledge and experience that you have, how have you applied that to yourself being ADHD? from people it's not the academics i mean i've got adhd so you can guess how i studied i did great but you can guess how that came about so it wasn't exactly information integration in a way that you know it's from humans i've learned and most obviously to me from young women that i work with in recovery they are really walking the walk as they say and have a lot work against them and they see straight through bullshit so they're the people that i learn from the most they have a lot working against them whether it's background wise or resources wise or the amount of trauma that has taken place they've got real integrity yes and really do what needs to be done and have decided to take something serious i mean i just have so much respect for them it makes me want to cry so they are the people that i run to to keep myself in check they're my best practice they really are what i do notice though because of the work that i do with these young women is the stuff that is not going to work for neurodivergent or addiction vulnerable people yeah you know okay with like high levels of shame and high levels of resistance to change yes so when people say things like well just use this app yes and it's like well what happens when i delete it and put in my pocket and do what the like yes or like do you use like behavioral change apps and things no okay what do you think i never have right because presumably I'm thinking I used to when I do like Fitness Pal, I was always on diets, right?

35:18Either I was meticulously looking at how many calories are in some carrots or I was in McDonald's, which is why I probably don't know how many calories are in like a normal meal, you know? Nonetheless, no one puts bad results on those apps. So if you've already got issues with object impermanence, you've already got issues with not remembering what happened. You've already got issues with abstracting away shame, interoception, whatever else it is. and then on top of that you have all this like false data i want these apps to release the data on not acquisition but retention yeah and how frequently people keep going on them just to record what they've done well pat themselves on the back when they're doing well and then start from scratch again yeah i wonder how many people and i bet a large proportion of those people are neurodivergent and i bet that a lot of business models are based on those people coming back i'm on my soapbox about this but it's impossible knowing what we know now that some people aren't closing their eyes and going hold on hold on have you have you heard of the adhd tax no you heard of that the parking tickets the apps that you subscribe to that you forget about no all of the things specifically for adhd is where you're just pouring money down the drain because we sign up stuff or we forget stuff or we don't pay a parking ticket on time or whatever.

36:40Yeah, there's a huge amount of vulnerability there where you've got someone going, oh my God, I just heard this app is going to manage my diary or is going to manage my meals or is going to, I don't know, take some responsibility off me that I don't need to do that is going to solve this problem. great sign up sign up subscribe sounds good gets lost in some app folder oh i mean and gets worse and worse and worse last night i was on the phone to apple they could not unfuck my laptop i'm telling you they could not unfuck it the guy was actually being a little bit passive aggressive on the phone he was like at the beginning he was like i am delighted to help you of course we can sort this out for you and eventually he was like so do you mean you actually don't know where this is and i was like no there's like five versions of it and i made sure that i backed it up so there was five versions but now i don't know which one works and i don't know where they are and my downloads folder is in the bin because i didn't like how it looked messing up my and he's like my friend sam always says to me you know that excel is not a piece of paper with lines drawn on it you know like i'm like i just don't think that these kinds of sort of systems and they just don't work if what you associate with imperfection is immediate shame and spiraling.

38:00Yeah. Because invariably they're going to hook you by getting you really into how well you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And then if you don't keep that up, then what? It's like with weight loss drugs, for example, if you get used to a certain speed of weight loss and you have never been okay with gaining anything ever as a concept for the scales to go up, where are we ending up? What do you think about these GLP? What do you think about them? I think the damage that's been done by diet culture is such that we should not now be shaming people for being on them. Yes. For sure. Yes. Okay. Because a lot of them are unlearning behaviors and food chatter that they wouldn't have chosen and they didn't want.

38:37So I feel very confidently about that. Okay. I know that a lot of people who are in addiction have found them very helpful because food is often, you know, from rehab, like food becomes everyone's eaten. Oh, the amount of sugars. The amount of sugars. People eat a lot in rehab. They go in people's coffees. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, coffees in meetings, but also like bread. Just like there's a lot of eating and there's a lot of building yourself. There's not a lot else to do. Exactly. And don't focus on that right now. And it's a lesser, you know, oral fixation, all of it. Yep. But I do think that they will create, much like we said before, addiction transference if you were dependent on food to solve your problem.

39:12Okay. The same way we would like now you're not eating to solve your problem. Yes. I think that they're complicated because of ultra-processed food and the fact that a lot of us are eating more than we'd like to anyway for health reasons. so then it becomes complicated too as to like should everyone being a bit less but one thing i know for sure is correct me if i'm wrong but certainly with the people i've worked with certainly with neurodivergent people who are like me if you've spent your whole life unable to build healthy habits and associations with food and exercise and you expect that being slimmer will facilitate that learning, then it's, unfortunately, it's very unlikely.

39:51Because if you're slimmer anyway, so you've got the outcome you want and you've come to moralize food choices anyway, then are you telling me that in the times between taking your medication, you're going to decide that's when I'm going to learn how to have salmon and a salad? Or are you telling me that the Mars bar you've been missing for two weeks, you can now have five of them because you can afford to because you've lost weight, right? Right? Yes. So that's the psychology of the person that I'm working with. I know my people and my people, when we've already got the result, that's not when we make the effort.

40:21Yes. Yes. Right? Yes. So that's where I'm thinking, whereas I have a friend, I spoke to her the other day. She's on them. She said that while she's on them, she eats less and she makes healthier choices. Okay. She feels inclined to make healthier choices because her cravings are fewer. Bear in mind, I'm not an expert by any means in the chemical. I'm observing loads of people who are taking it. Yes. However, she said that in between medication when it's worn off, she will go back into her old habits. Now, of course she will. It's the dependence. That's the bit with all of this. And whether that's an app or it's a substance or it's an injection or it's that external dependence.

40:59And that could be validation or it could be help or whatever. I grew up massively being shown and guided in being fully independent. You know, I was making my bed, ironing at seven, like I can do everything for myself and I don't need anybody else. And that flipped to, you know, probably being more unhelpful at times of like, actually, it's quite nice to sort of be around others and rely on somebody and trust someone and ask for help. But yeah, I worry that we're not taking enough responsibility sometimes of like, we have all these shiny distractions of like, can help you, can help you, snake oil, this app, you know, this drug, this diet.

41:50Like so many shiny baubles. And I'm sure you see this with ADHD as like, we are attracted to the shiny baubles. Yes. Massively. What are your three top tips for making positive change? Firstly, treat it as skill building. Make it as impersonal as possible. Identify the change you want to make and what is required from any human being. Through practice, some people might take a month, some people might take six months. but decide what needs to be repeated with your hands in order to get to where you want to be okay number two is assume that you're going to have almost constant pushback internally when you do something well you should assume you're going to think it's a fluke you'll have flashbacks of associations with previous times when you've got further than this and it hasn't turned out well those are all fine but as long as you still believe that if you do it in a row you'll get there, then your task is to just listen or not, whatever.

42:58You got to do it in a row to hand yourself over to that. And finally, you need to forgive yourself quickly, really quickly. And it doesn't need to come in the way of, I love myself so much, that doesn't matter. It needs to come in the way of, what would I do next if I wasn't feeling ashamed? What would I literally do next if I was really proud of myself and I just made the best choice in the world? Because the beauty of that is that then you'll turn it back around. Yes. because then, like we were saying earlier, that becomes your point of no return. So, for example, I didn't exercise my entire life because I associated exercise with already being thin, looking good at the gym, or just kind of like, yeah, there was too much shame and it was hard.

43:34Like, that's the other thing with the weight loss drugs too. It's harder to exercise when you're heavy and you're unfit. It really is, you know, like all that stuff. Of course. But one time, I don't know, a few years ago or something, I had a binge on like a Friday night and I'd come off like a, which meant I'd come off a really restrictive diet, right? Okay. Which also meant that I was at breakfast the next morning, of course, eating a bunch of pancakes or whatever else I'd missed, right? I was like, right, the ship has sailed. And it's Friday night. See you Monday. Yeah. Obviously, right? And then I got a message from my friend saying, like, I'm at the spin studio.

44:03Are we spinning? And I was like, oh, I made that plan when I was perfect, Shaz. And so I ended up going spinning on a full stomach, pancakes, everything, right? I've never done this before. I only exercised if I was in the zone. Sure. Or on a mission. And I went to the spin class and afterwards I was just healthy the rest of the weekend because for me, I turned it all around because I was good now. Yeah. Right. So actually now I use that as a tool as well. So if you know that there are things that will bring you back because after them you feel that you've been good, start hacking that brain. Like stop trying to change it and just assume it's going to behave the way it always has done.

44:38There's nothing wrong with it. Create an environment that gets on side. Yes. You know. Yes. So for example, now I've assumed that I am going to have nights when I work into the middle of the night and I love it. That's it. I love it. And that will mean that there are days where I have to allow myself to do literally nothing. It doesn't matter who waits, whatever. Because in the end, no one wants me to burn out. No one benefits from me burning out and I have to keep that North Star there. And in the meantime, if I want to go off on one, I totally can. Safe in the knowledge that I know that what goes up must come down.

45:11and I'm going to need some time without talking to anyone. And this is something that I learned recently because for the last five years, personally, I've been sort of having to compromise to some degree for various reasons and live with other people. And I should not do that. Why not? Because of the amount of masking that I do, the amount of consideration that I give, and also the way that I do things in order to be efficient is totally different. And I didn't realize the extent of it until I had my own space again. okay so for example i will sometimes just zone out and then get ready really quickly and i don't want to be late for work never so i'll leave the house but it looks like a bomb's gone off yep i don't want to leave a house with someone else in it like a bomb's gone off yes so i end up being late for my meetings which i feel shameful about because you want to leave it when it's tidy exactly okay right or i want to make sure that i haven't bothered anyone or there's just routines that i have or weirdnesses that i have that need to happen in order for me to then come into this and function with everyone else.

46:08Yep. And they're weird to other people. They're not renegade. I mean, I wouldn't mind anyone seeing them, but just knowing another human being is there. They're you. They're me. They're you. I'm also lucky enough to have had the opportunity at different stages of life to see how I would choose to live with this new understanding. Yes. Some people don't have. I mean, most people don't have that. Sure. They're considering other people. Yep. I've been lucky enough to keep coming back and be like, oh, so it turns out if we take judgment and witnesses and everything out of it. You want this done to the best of my ability?

46:39These are the things that I need in place. Yes. And they may not make sense to you or anyone. They'll probably make sense to you, but they're random and they're weird. Also, for example, I've just moved into a new flat and I have a lot of work to do. You could argue that I'm procrastinating. I knew in my heart, I need my home to be the way that I need it to be. So important. And then I can go out and take risks. This I can control. this is safe I can come back here then I can go out and be tutti fruity yeah you know and come back and take risks I know that of myself now objectively speaking I have an inbox full there are loads of people emailing me and of course when my house was done inbox was empty in like half a day yes so you have to know yourself and not expect other people to know your process yep because it's probably different to another neurodivergent person's process so it isn't even like you got safety in numbers in that sense.

47:35No, no, there's no like, here's the one size fits all process. I think I learned a few years ago that in order to create a habit, you needed to do it something like 21 times, right? I've now seen on Instagram, it's like 93 times. How many times do I have to do something in order for it to become a habit? Ben, you said you used to smoke crack, right? Yes. Right. if I asked you to stop smoking crack or build the habit of drinking half a glass of water every day which one do you think might take longer? Yeah but I want to know how many times Actually, do you know what? Very glad you said times and not what period of time No, like How many times?

48:22If I do it 30 times in a day No, but it depends on the person, right? So again, it would be if you did it 30 times in a day you might be further ahead than someone else But for sure both of you are going to be further ahead There aren't any two ways about that Depending on where you started And what the habit is The reason I got beef with this 21 day thing Is because of what I just said to you Like 21 days to learn what? To learn this software if you practice every day Or to stop injecting heroin Dude I mean also humans Like a lot of this stuff goes on self-reporting humans You know And I believe that everyone Who is observing that behaviour needs to have it taken seriously and get the diagnosis that they need and all of those things.

49:02That said, when we talk about what works and doesn't work, often it's for people who've already engaged in treatment and are sharing openly about what works and doesn't work honestly or not. So I think with a lot of that stuff, whether it's 21 days or whatever else, you want to establish who does it serve for this research to have been done? What questions were asked of these people who are riddled with shame? But if I wanted to replace tea with coffee, what would your advice be? Well, first I'd ask if you feel that you're going to have physical pushback. Are you dependent on coffee? Because I will have headaches.

49:41I will get a headache. Okay. What you want to do is first I would say, much like you said you did with Seedlip, you want to look at where do I want to end up? What does that look like? It looks like me behaving in this way. Yeah. If anyone ended up here and didn't start here, what would their process have been? Yes Some days would have been really hard Yeah Especially at the beginning Yeah And then there'll be a different type of hard that comes Like sort of in a second wind Where you trivialize it It wasn't so bad The reasons why you should go back Come back Because you feel lethargic in the afternoon You should just anticipate all those phases And keep going through the motions that you've set yourself And the practical motions that you've set yourself You want to look at A, making it as easy as possible To do what you said you were going to do week one Even if that is just have coffee one day less Because for you and your brain Then you're on a mission You'll tick you've done well Yes You need to feel that you've done well That is really important Massively I think for changing behaviour isn't it The yes The I did it Especially when shame Right So there are people who will say That tough love Treating myself like shit works whatever I've observed that those are people who haven't Treated themselves like shit In other domains for their whole lives Okay You know But for me I need to feel like I've done well That's why I tell people When you feel like you've had a blip I want you to go through the motions as if you just had a win.

50:57Okay. Like what you actually do. Okay. So you need to feel like you've succeeded the first week. And until the physical withdrawal goes, and the pushback from, oh, this is just a fluke, it wasn't that important, goes. And the pushback from, maybe I should just go back because actually everything else is messing up now, I'm not as sharp or whatever. Just assume all those things are going to come. Yep. Continue to put your faith in the fact that this is the outcome you want, this is how it goes, and that it was going to be hard. and then start imposing delays before you consume your problematic substance.

51:28I'm going to give it half an hour and do what I like. Don't like shut down your prefrontal cortex by going all like, that's it, I'm never doing it again. Increase your shame, increase your stress. Just say, I'm going to do what I like. I'm going to give it half an hour. But it is these absolutes, right? These I'm never going to, that just sets us up for failure. Yeah, but it's difficult. You can't convince ourselves or others of that initially because the lack of transformative excitement is also going to set us up to not even get that first streak. Okay. So you need to kind of work out, kind of like I was saying earlier with the rooms, with the fellowships.

51:59It's like I might not want people to think they're one drink away from complete powerlessness. Like the second drink will just, you know, one is a thousand, thousands not enough stuff. Equally, having that structure in place and almost that fear in place helps. The most empowering thing I've learned is if I want to use heroin, I can use heroin if I want to use crack I can use crack I can I really believe that that is my choice but I just don't want to and I feel like there's this you know I don't smoke cigarettes but I used to I can I could go and smoke a cigarette after this if I want but I don't want to and so I got to this place where instead of like i can never i must never i should not i should not i must be scared by all these things i get to this yeah of course i can if i want but i don't want to that is like the best thought i've ever had that is the best feeling i continually have so you don't have using thoughts or using dreams or anything nothing that's amazing can i ask you questions Yeah.

53:11Do you trust that from the second cigarette or the second pipe or the second either way that from that point on, do you trust that you could stop or not or carry on? I know that you could and I understand why that sense of agency is empowering and I'm very much behind it. I do not believe that I could use once. OK, so there is an acknowledgement of powerlessness. A hundred percent. I see. I know that you could. Yeah. You see, I thought what you meant was I could and I don't have any fear of what will happen next. Oh, my God, no. No, no. I 100 % trust my brain now. And that means I can trust my brain to want to kill me.

53:54Right. And so I feel like that's an amazing place to be that I have absolute confidence in my brain, but not necessarily whether it's going to be good for me. that is fascinating right so you believe so when you play the tape forward as i say you're thinking you're assuming that your brain will do what it's always done before you don't believe that having changed your behaviors when it comes to using and the compulsion around class a's for example is going to have changed it'll be there from the second point of choice onwards it will because the for me to get to a point that i cannot imagine happening but for me to get to a point where I would want to use something would be really wrong because it's a coping mechanism right it's so in order for me to get to that point I'd need to be really desperate I'm really in crisis what would you notice you know they say relapse doesn't come out of nowhere right that there's like stuff happens and then it builds up and eventually kind of relapse will happen right because it feels like it's just happening in a split second you're possessed yeah you just reminded me the the other day i was speaking to these kids that i work with and we ended up doing an exercise where i said to them if i brought 10 people in here who are in recovery and you had to work out who's about to relapse what would you ask them yeah you you get to interview them and i mean they're so smart one of them just went the first thing she said was when did you last tell a lie?

55:27Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what? Do you smell like boots? No, no. Or have you been walking past pubs or have you been answering invitations? Exactly. Literally, when did you last tell a lie? And I was like, that is integrity. That is someone who has got such a temperature of what's going on internally. Yes. And is so conscious not to deviate from what they know is best for them that those are the questions that they're asking. Yeah. You know, when did you last lie to someone, including yourself? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Obviously, the things like smart feet, when did you last go to a meeting, things like that.

55:57But mainly it's that. When did you start negotiating with yourself? Yeah. When did you stop sharing? Yeah. When did you stop being completely transparent about what is going on for you? But look at it in an ADHD context, right? And look at it like, how's your executive function? How's your emotional regulation? How's your kind of just level of organization of life? you can start to see the signals and the signs of how things going. Yeah. If you're, like yourself, aware of them. So then the fear of the first choice is not there. And then you don't have to worry about the second choice because it's almost impossible for you to get there, right?

56:34Exactly. But you have put in place things that mean that the first choice is wildly unlikely. Yes. And there's a term we use in clinical addiction years ago, recovery capital. Okay. Ultimately, like, how many domains of your life have you got recovery? in so like meetings will be one recovery specific but are there touch points you are you connecting with people i think one of my greatest mentors and teachers i think he's nearly 30 if not more years recovery he always says you need somewhere to live someone to love and something to do okay and i've always like gone by that yeah you know that you need to keep an eye that all those things are happening and it doesn't need to be you know someone to love in the blatant sense you know Something to take care of, relationships to nourish, things that you have to lose.

57:21Yeah. Ultimately. Yeah. And not in a fear way. No, no. But in a grateful, I've built these things and they're amazing and they bolster me to some degree. So for example, now the spin place that I go, everyone knows me. They probably notice if I didn't turn up after a while. Do you know what I mean? Like they're probably like, where have you been? Yeah. That's important when you're used to isolating, going off grid. Yep. Especially when you live in a city. Yeah, yeah. Those things are really important to feel seen, to feel that people notice, to feel that you matter. Those are really important things.

57:52And I think also knowing that the safety net is there. And also once you have the safety net there for relapse or lapse, I've seen it to become less likely that you will because you don't want to go back to all those different domains and tell them that you relapsed. So many things are dependent now. And again, not from a shame, guilt. Oh, no, everyone's going to be mad at me. but from a genuine look at all these wonderful things that will be touched by it now. Yeah, there's an infrastructure and there's a kind of a chassis. Yeah, and you're part of it and you're important and you're an important part of something.

58:23And that's why this idea of like the 13th step, I think the idea of giving it back and being of service. And again, I'm not by any means ideologically peddling disease model, but I do think that having a structure that understands that, as Ray also says, also, you know, you don't have anything until you give it away. is really helpful for relapse prevention. Yeah. How much do we know about addiction and neurodivergence? I don't know enough. I'm not enough of an expert. What I know is that not having high enough baseline dopamine, and by the way, this is from my own experience of having tried to work out what's going on with me.

59:03Yeah. Invariably, you become more vulnerable to things that are going to change that quickly. Things that are already highly addictive, of course. and also the extremes, the binary ways of thinking, the feeling out of control. So for example, I've just written a book about diet culture and essentially it sets neurodivergent people up to they're screwed because you become addicted to both the control of restriction and the abandon and rebellion of overeating ultra-processed foods until you trying to be less shameful and thin ends you up with an eating disorder that makes you fat. Yeah. So neurodivergent people are set up for that.

59:38I mean, truly set up. So how do we change that? Identify the way you would like with an addiction. Exactly the way that you have. Know where your vulnerabilities are and design for them. Okay. And also now is the best time to do it because your vulnerabilities are the same as a lot of people's. There were people before who weren't addiction vulnerable in our society. And now because of the world we're living in, they are. I know that more and more people who I work with are aware of their vulnerability to becoming dependent on all sorts of things. Thank goodness. Yes. I don't see young people smoking.

1:00:10probably because it's so expensive but just anecdotally i don't see that i know that i hear about them vaping a lot sure sure i went to a school recently and they said that kids are vaping just for the sake of it yeah yeah and then there's all these new interesting things like for example you can vape anywhere yep so who knows what that's going to turn into there's no precedent for the way we're using tech either sure sure like i don't know and i'm not sure that i'm listening to that many people who profess to because it's so unprecedented yeah and i think that some of those boxes are the reasons that we end up feeling shameful of like oh no they say neurodivision people should be like this and it's like guys it's been five minutes since we've been talking can we just wait yeah before we give people another stick to beat themselves with yes another place to put themselves let's just let them without shame describe what they're what's happening and what's happening yes and then we'll work out what's happening yeah i know it sounds basic but And for me, that's always been the way because my clients have always been people who aren't interested in stuff that doesn't really, really, really, really work.

1:01:12Of course. Don't give me the light. Yeah. I'm going to do a body scan when I'm about to pick up. Do you know what I mean? It's not happening. Yeah. And so I don't know where it's going in that sense, but I know that people are feeling compulsive, impulsive. I know that post-COVID, huge populations of people who previously were not dependent on alcohol. And actually, we're very good at having like a diverse toolkit of coping strategies. Let's say for like stress, anxiety, boredom, low mood, whatever. One of them was exercise. One of them was connecting with friends, whatever. And now alcohol was on heavier rotation for a couple of years.

1:01:47And as a result, so many people have told me that once the second bottle's opened, the journey from glass to one bottle is short, but the journey from one bottle to two bottles is shorter. Yes. You know? But then what about the kind of, oh, well, now I'm addicted to exercise because I'm neurodivergent. I kind of want to look at, I need to kind of occupy my brain. I hyper focus on stuff. I get really into things. where do you draw the line on healthy unhealthy good habit bad habit addictive balanced i'd say if it gives more than it takes over more of a period of time okay so not right now okay and so what i mean is that if for example if i do like like i said earlier with the peloton thing if i run like once i ran 10k right out of the blue after that 9k wasn't going to do but i'm an unfit person who white knuckled it nearly killed themselves do you see what i mean so i think the first thing you want to do is to be telling yourself like this is how i am it's going to be intense and i think it's really what you just said which is i don't know if you say it on purpose now whatever you said for now yeah for now this is my thing that i'm doing yeah i'll always be someone who is intense about stuff yes i'll always be someone who if i go to a pilates class i'm already googling how i become an instructor and like yes and probably will never go again yes and use that other credit assume those things and just be like and for now this is what i do and maybe i'll drop this completely but this is what i'm going to be like and i'd rather do it than not when you take the stick away of like yeah i'm going to get into stuff and then i'm going to drop it and i'm not going to give myself a hard time for that no it's that bit that i think you know i'm talking for neurodivergent people here but But I think it is that kind of shaming and that stick that comes out that goes, you never keep anything up.

1:03:44How do you think I feel teaching people to keep things up? Yeah. And then I've had to give myself the permission because I'm good at it from my baseline, really good at it, considering what I'm pushing against. But I also need to give myself the permission to change my mind when I'm telling people exactly how to do things. and so what that's why i really want to hand over what i know and make myself redundant so people can do what i do for themselves what i do for myself for themselves yes because the last thing any of us need is another person we feel dependent on or grateful to that's a really important coach therapeutic like thing to say isn't it around the dependence that can happen tell me what i should do tell me what i should do and thank god thank god i came through this through substance misuse right because now everyone's a coach and that's fine but when you study psychology when you say that when I am training when I am delivering training I am doing so in the capacity of a psychologist now of course that's the label of that here is all which is why I'm really careful but when you're working with somebody one-on-one in a coaching capacity my job is to work out thanks to working substance misuse for the most cynical funding reasons and the most wonderful empowerment reasons, got to keep it moving.

1:04:59You know, you got to get people out. Yeah. You got to get people in and out and you got to get them empowered and you got to get them not coming back. Exactly. Representation is not okay from a funding perspective. Not a good look. It's not a good look. It's not a good look. Not for governance and not for your own knowing you've done your job. Yep. And so what would happen is that I was very lucky in that all of my managers, I actually met up with one of them recently who gave me my first job in substance abuse. They were so proper and like just really believed in recovery and really got it and one of them on my first day they were like you know we're here to make ourselves redundant to people you need to hand over what they need to kind of remember themselves and what they need yeah and then stand away yeah and every now and then you would see someone say something that would really prove to you why that's so important I remember once I was visiting a place someone relapsed because their key worker wasn't in and it's like your key worker has done you a dirty my friend yeah you know sorry yeah and it's probably well intentioned yeah yeah but we should not be doing that for people who already feel ashamed and dependent and like they should be thanking everyone for everything and that without that external thing they're not okay yes i should not be that external thing yeah yeah even the word coach like i was trained as a recovery coach you know so my job was always around like how can we get you not needing me at asap yeah yeah yeah and i'm sure that a lot of coaching is like that like more pure or executive coaching or whatever yes but for you to fundamentally lean into the spirit of this you need to realize that you know more about yourself than i do yeah and that i can't be with you 24 hours a day and that even if you needed me to that would only make your problem worse yeah and to your point earlier about becoming addicted to exercise you want to make it so you don't feel dependent on the exercise like for example i exercised this morning knowing that it would make my nervous system feel calmer now sure if i hadn't i would be doing heavy lifting that you couldn't see, but you would see the same outcome.

1:06:53Yeah, yeah. So that's what you want to work out for yourself. Like, I could do it, but I'd rather not have it be so hard. Yes. So I put these things in place. And it's a really, I guess, just in addiction terms, it's easy, isn't it, when you're like, well, at least I'm not. Well, at least I'm not using drugs. Oh, that's what, yeah, well, that's the problem with sending people to the rooms as well, because they're like, I'm not that bad. Exactly. It's not that bad. Oh, no. You are. So just to finish on kind of neurodivergence and addiction, I'm kind of leaving today going, oh my God, yeah, really need to look a bit further into this and see what's being done.

1:07:34See whether there've been any studies because addiction is a big business, right? And it's a way bigger business than neurodiversity, I can tell you. I'm not whistleblowing anything here, but I am just putting it out there. We've been diagnosing people as addicts and with addiction for a long, long time. And a lot longer than we've been in this ND world. And even thinking that adults could be ADHD, which was only 2008, by the way, that we realised that an adult could be ADHD. So, yeah, I'm just sort of putting it out there. I think addiction and neurodivergence need some work. Me too. I think you need to write another book on it, basically.

1:08:18I am a little bit. I want to do that. I really want to get more involved in that because addiction vulnerability is ultimately what we're talking about. And I feel that neurodivergent people and the tools that they need to change habits, much like I feel that the tools that addicts use to change habits, be they neurodivergent or not, are the safest bet that will work for everyone. And so that's the way we should be going. Yeah. If you design for the most change resistant, everyone will be covered. Yeah, then you're in a good universal design win-win. And I think that in the spirit of longer term sustained strategy, you're better off doing that knowing that the number of people who are addiction vulnerable and therefore demonstrating the traits of neurodivergent people is going to invariably go up.

1:09:06We can just see that ultra processed food. We can see that in terms of levels of stress in the environment. We can see that in terms of the economy. like there are just reasons why we can see that people are going to start finding it hard to put steps between wanting to do something unhelpful to change how they feel and actually following through with it yeah and the things that they do to change how they feel are now designed to get them hooked faster yeah yeah all that to say i think that if we focus more on designing for neurodivergent people we would also be making a long-term investment in designing for what's to come for everyone in the way of feeling that they are powerless and waiting for a rock bottom of sorts which when it comes to generalized everyday habits can take a long time and you can lose a lot yeah before that day comes about yeah which means that we're leaving a bunch of people completely unresourced internally and externally yeah to deal with their lives and then we start again and take notice yes that's my two cents yeah i think it's a great two cents so i just want to switch gear for this last little bit what is the best piece of advice you can give me on changing somebody's mind as it relates to all of the issues and things we need to change with neurodivergence?

1:10:11I think we need to reframe it so that you're optimizing the conditions for neurodivergent people to not be strain on services, to not be da-da-da-da-da. I know it sounds cynical, but I used to be a bid writer. So I know the spin that we need to, you know, financially, I think that what needs to happen is that you need to say, if you take this many people, the same way we did with addiction. If you go into a corporation and say, this much of your, these people are burning out, these people are using... £17 billion a year is what it costs for not helping ADHDers. Yeah. And I think that's it. Whereas if you looked at it, we're making these people, we know that the vast majority of them would be diagnosed, right?

1:10:56Addiction proof. Or we know that these people are addiction vulnerable. We can now guess the costs that they're going to, you know, we actually have a lot more information now. And I think that what we can start to do is to say that if you create opportunities for these people to optimize their lives and the productivity that you get out of these people, the, I mean, the helping professions would just do so, you know, the people, the compassion, the empathy that exists in there, just, it would be amazing. Teaching professionals, like all of these areas where you would just get people flooded in who are accommodating and just the kindest, most wonderful people.

1:11:29and I think we need to stop framing it, although it needs to be taken seriously from a mental health perspective 100 % and it is debilitating and I believe that truly. I think we also need to start leaning into how do we optimize the lives of neurodivergent people because they are gems and wildly, I mean, assets, you know. Yes. The speed with which I can write an article. Yeah, they can contribute. Massively. Yeah. Massively. Three out of ten autistic adults are in employment. Three. three out of ten that's wild to me literally yesterday I called my friend Ellen and I said can you come on my life invoice me you know because and she's autistic like please help me you know so I think that we just need to start doing that just saying that what do you find a lot easier than other people too like definitely what do you find harder sure sure but what can you do in your sleep that other people seem to struggle with let's start asking people those questions because you are going to hear some extraordinary things absolutely you know yeah absolutely there is a simplistic economic argument to all of this, right?

1:12:32Of like, this costs loads of money. If you support it, it doesn't cost as much money. These people out of work is costing more money. In work, contributing, growth, economy, etc. This is also a perfect time, by the way, because we didn't know that stuff. Yeah, yeah. So if I was a politician and I wanted to make some changes, I'd be like, well, now we know this. Let's go about doing it properly then. Yeah. You know, because it's a huge opportunity. It isn't like you've dropped the ball and not know. We know stuff we didn't know before. What's the best piece of advice you can give me on changing someone's mind?

1:13:06Change their behavior first. Okay. Change their behavior. Don't expect their mind to change. Okay. But allow them to believe that their mind might change if they change their behavior for long enough. Okay. But do you mean like policymakers? Yeah. Oh, so change their mind about what? about anything to do with neurodiversity, about the fact that diagnostic pathways all siloed, like we've got an autism waitlist and a waitlist and never the two shall meet, about the need for reform in education. Well, you've had Kat Brown on here, right? No. Not a bloody trend. I love Kat. She's amazing. And books like that are really important.

1:13:45Yep. So like not a bloody trend, really, really important. Looking at it and saying, look, much like we're saying with a lot of conversations right now, This isn't new. Yes. We just know about it. In a rehab, is neurodiversity assessed for? I don't know. But I will say one thing. These things should be. Totally, totally. And I haven't worked in services like on the ground, key working in like a nearly decade now. But I'll tell you something. What I know for sure is the kids I work with, a lot of them have diagnoses and eating disorders, which at the time wasn't there. Yes. They'll get diagnoses after they're in recovery, though.

1:14:17They are clean first. Sure. but and i say clean it's not a term i like but that's that what they use in the in the rooms even if we did it would be the tools designed for addiction that would work best yeah so that's what i've been saying this entire time so whether those tools were for adhd or addiction ultimately we're saying they're for people who behave this way can't have one black and white spiraling high levels of shame executive function blah blah blah interoception and then we say and then what would you do with them i teach them how to do this and it's what has existed in the substance misuse evidence base for a long time sure ever since i think there was a strang report in maybe 2010 or something that was very recovery focused asset focused no more of this people have to hit rock bottoms no more of this if they feel bad enough they will change and there was a real shift towards no self-awareness self-esteem self-compassion these are the foundations on which people can create recovery and communities and thrive and not come back or become dependent on other things.

1:15:18Yep. Nice. Cheers. So last question, our green dot, second one for you. Who would you like to give it to? I'd like to give it to Ellen Jones. Okay. Ellen is an author and an activist. Ellen is autistic. And Ellen helped me not just to get diagnosed, but the neutrality with which she spoke about my behaviors enabled me to see a world in which that was just the case. and I can see now you know when we first met whether it was she was talking about masking and things and what it would take from her I realized now that I didn't understand the extent of it and I have an enormous amount of respect for her and she's really been there for me and she does extraordinary work in the neurodivergent space in the queer space like she's amazing and I feel that her knowledge her deep knowledge of neurodivergence and as a result of spending time with neurodivergent people and disabled people and understanding in general disability and how it affects people and all these her depth of knowledge has been extraordinary to me and now every time i notice something she's become like my dictionary so i'll be like ellen why is it that i don't know how i feel ever you know or like why don't i miss anyone what's wrong with me and then i see them and i'm like i've never loved anyone more oh my god what's wrong with me and she's like oh that's this and this and this that's totally normal but again it isn't in a like reassuring there's no emotion attached to it it's just like oh that's because your arms like that yes done yeah that will be because of that then yeah it's not judged that worked for me big time yeah it's not judged and that is that's massively helpful when it's just clear without judgment thank you and she'll do things like she'll invite me to something and say just pencil it in for now but if you change your mind right before no worries don't come yes and i'll be like i'll be there thanks because you said that you know what i mean she'll just say things like that like i know you're not ignoring me yeah if you need me i'm here i know you won't come well now i'm coming but that you want to be invited and i'll be like well because you know i'm gonna be there with exactly exactly that truly thank you so much i feel like the addictionnd piece we're just scratching the surface on yes a big area and i know because i've had 90 plus people sat in that chair right to kind of find the themes from our community and from our guests addictive behavior addiction like there's something there and it's a little thread that i think we've started to pull out that needs to be unraveled so yeah thank you very much because this has been a great itch to scratch thank you

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