Spend Your Money NOW - Before It’s Too Late! (Bill Perkins Final Warning)

23:31And then go out and pursue those. What would you say to the people who get more fulfillment from saving than spending? Let's assume they're my very close friend, because at the end of the day, I can't tell you, I can't tell our addict that it's bad for them. I mean, I can tell them, right? But, you know, they're like, you got a problem. I don't have a problem. I can stop anytime I want to. You know what I mean? Like, you have a problem with my, you know what I mean? That's the people with saving, right? But at the end of the day, what I try and point out is it's like, it's suboptimal. Like the point of saving, yes, there is some hedonic value to know you're doing the right thing, etc.

24:06But the purpose of delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately, your body has a vote, and it's going to decay. And you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now. And so the purpose of working is the reward. And the reward is not the token. The token is useless. Who gives a shit? You care about the experiences that it's going to afford you the life it's going to afford you. Like builders don't really give a about hammers and saws except to the fact that it helps them build houses. If they didn't, they'd throw them away. And so imagine you had, you know, people that are just saving money to be saving money are just collecting hammers and saws to never build a building.

24:48What if they're collecting options in terms of they're collecting the ability to have the choice to do whatever they want? I think that's great. And I think there is a place for saving, but those options expire just like you will. And not only will you expire, this time period will expire. So it's not just the one death you have, it's the many deaths you have, the single you, the you without kids, the you with small kids, the you with kids out of the house, the you that can actually sprint, the you that will never sprint again for the rest of your life, right? I'm just pointing out some, there's lots of them, right?

25:21And so in each period of your life, certain activities, choices are optimal. you know, and in certain periods, they don't transfer well or they don't transfer at all. And so depending on who you are and what you want to have out of your life, when you get off autopilot and you think about what experiences I want to have in my life, then, you know, you can allocate your funds correctly. You can save for the things that are, you know, you get the spend burn ratio right. Right. But just to say I'm preserving options, like who gives a like what option you're saving for? List them to me. Tell me what they are.

25:54To have this nebulous thing is just fear-based thinking and just trying to justify it by saying I'm saving for options. I'm like, you're full of shit. You just haven't really done the homework about your life. You haven't really thought about what you wanted out of life. And you're hiding behind this, like, I have a bunch of money thing to justify the laziness of not really getting off autopilot and thinking about what experiences you want to have in each period of your life. Right? Like, the purpose of the money, right, is for your fulfillment. Right? And part of the fulfillment is planning the activity.

26:24doing the activity and then reliving the activity and talking about the activity. Like before we got on, we were talking about your wedding and how you thought it was great. And he was saying, hey, you thought you could have made it better if you loosened up a little bit, right? And so when you talk about your wedding and it was great, et cetera, you're getting fulfillment from that, right? Zero cost fulfillment. How did you pay for that? You pay for it earlier when you spent the money and now you're reaping the dividends. And so if you delay gratification pretty far enough, you don't get that many memory dividends.

26:52You get less fulfillment. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace, and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message, and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. less high score and less ability to do some of those activities. Now, this might be oddly specific, but where do you draw the line for opportunity cost if you're in an area or time of your life where your time, working hours are really valuable?

27:37Whereas in the future, you don't think you're going to have the same ROI as you do today. Yeah, that's like these calculations are tough and everybody's going to have to, you know, that's why these like variables come in there. But you just want the mental model. Like, how am I thinking about this? This is OK. I'm 25. five, I can take three ski trips when I'm 30 or one ski trip now because I'm going to give time out. Like what is a better deal for me? Right. You might say, well, I'm going to be 30. I'm still physically fit. Right. I don't use physical maturity until 33. That's a great return. And I still get many years of the memory dividend.

28:13I'm going to grind it out. I have three trips later. Plus, as a young male in your 30s, the sexual health, power dynamics. You know, I'll be able to meet a lot more girls as a 30 year old with my together as opposed to a 25 year old with my together. So you might make that decision. When you're 60, you might not make that decision saying three trips at 65 versus one trip now. I don't know. My knee hurts. My back hurts. This might be my last, you know, ski trip. I might not even be able to ski. You know, the friends that are with me that I would go that actually add to the enjoyment. They might not be around.

28:48George is 70. He might be dead. You know, whatever it is, like, I'm just making up these scenarios. So that thought process, right? Like not kind of that autopilot, like, oh, I'm just going to save, save, save, save just thinking it through. And so I think like a 25 year old will have a lot of arguments and probably tilt towards like, I'm going to take three ski trips later. And Mr. 60, 65 year old might be. Yeah. Speaking of death, when is that something that you started to consider? When did that start creeping in that all of a sudden your life isn't just going to last forever? It was kind of early, but more profound, you know, when I started thinking about like money, its purpose, books like Your Money, Your Life, fulfillment, and kind of like where are you going to get the maximum enjoyment out of your life?

29:33Where is most of your fulfillment going to come for your life? And so I thought it was like being aware of your death and that you're going to expire kind of like cuts through your ego. Right. Like if you're in a plane crash or like you were a terminal disease, you know, you're going to die. You're going to have great health, but you're going to die in a year. Like it's going to cut through all the ego and you're going to live the life you really want to live. Right. You're going to do the things you're going to say that I love you. You're going to take the risk. You're going to do all the things because you're going to die in a year.

30:01um and so you know you don't live each day as if it was your last you live each day with death in mind in the future right the things you do now are actually influenced by the day you die it's just a little bit more remote right because the day before you die you would do certain things the two days before you would die to certain things a month before a year before etc and so on and so how you behave, whether you save, the risks you take, the things you do are really influenced by the day you die and the deterioration rate of your body, right? It's just an integral, right? Over time. And so being aware of kind of the idea of like when you're going to die, you know, getting a range of that date and your health is extremely, extremely important for you to have the courage to implement, you know, this, holy, I'm not going to be as rich as I was last year.

30:57I need to convert them into experiences. Like I need to live the life I want. It like kind of forces you to live and take it seriously. Like when you're on vacation and the vacation, you know, it was never going to end. You might never, like when I lived in New York, I never went to the Empire State Building. I never went to all these stores, unless somebody came in town. Because I could always do it, right? But then when they came in town, it's like, oh, they're here for a weekend. They go see the things. They go to the plays. They go, whatever. They take full advantage of New York. And so I think kind of life is that way.

31:26A lot of people think like it's always going to be there. I'll always be able to go to Japan. I'll always be able to do X, Y and Z. Later in life, these things are going to happen. Right. And then they let their lives pass them by. One thing that is a bit of a taboo topic, but would you say money buys happiness? I've seen like I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than a Civic. What do you think about that? Yeah, I actually think it does. But you need to know how to use it. You know, you have these Chuck E. Cheese tokens, right? And you need to know how to go to the desk and exchange them for the comb or the doll at Chuck E.

32:00Cheese. And it's kind of like a joke. But what I'm trying to say is, is that going back to the hammers and saws, right? It's a tool. And so I can give you all the power tools and all the things to build a house. But if you don't know how to use those tools, you will not build a house. And so I can give you a ton of money, right? And if you don't know how to use that tool called money to build a life of happiness, then you won't. You'll just have a bunch of money. And so what you find is when people point out examples of like money ruined this person or money didn't make them happy is generally they did not know how to use the tool.

32:37When do you feel like it starts tapering off in terms of satisfaction with money? Is there a point of diminishing returns? I think it's person specific. Money for all the things you want plus a little bit more, right? So that depends on the things you want. And what happens is with money is that you discover a lifestyle and things that you want that you never knew. Like you don't come out of the womb knowing that you like chocolate and you hate onions and I like France and I don't like Thailand or whatever the mix is, right? You go out in life and you discover the things you like and you want, right?

33:10I remember when I never wanted to leave Jersey City. I thought it was the best place in the world and I never want to leave. Why would anybody leave Jersey City? Right. Went out, discovered like what a idiot that was. Nobody needs more than$150 ,000 a year, blah, blah, blah. Make$250 ,000, have zero, zero leftover. You're like, oh, what an idiot I was. I can really use$250 ,000. That's even being efficient and frugal like you, right? I could still spend it. Then it becomes a million, right? And so when you say the average person, it's very easy to pick a number that's like double what they have or triple what they have or 2000 income.

33:46Then you meet somebody that's making$5 million a year, et cetera. And you're like, it's not even close, right? It's not diminishing at the same rate, you know? And I think it's when the person is now having capital that they'll never spend and living that life, right? You could just point it out. They don't even realize it, right? But you can just point it out. Then we're at enough. I saw a study on CNBC that actually said that in order for people to feel rich, they need double from what they currently make. And they found that across pretty much every single income group. Whether you make 100, you need 200.

34:21If you make 200, you need 400. 500, you need a million. That just kept going. Yeah, people are not finding the concept of enough, right? Like they're not in touch with what they want. And part of that, which I think is going on is they're discovering the world, right? You don't know what it's like to be on a super yacht until you can afford to rent a super yacht. And then you're like, holy, I would like to be on a super yacht a lot more. You know, I need to make more money to rent super yachts, right? And so, you know, and it's like, I'm actually much happier on a super yacht than I was not on a super yacht, right?

34:50And I'm getting fulfillment out of it, etc. I didn't know I like to travel as much as I did. I didn't know I like Japan as much as I did. I didn't know I liked X, Y and Z. And so I think part of that is going on. But also people just aren't having a concept enough. Right. Like they you know, there is that is not taught here. It's not part of the culture, the concept of enough. Yeah, I think Tai Lopez was telling us that 10 million was the point of diminishing returns, where everything beyond that point, you start getting a little less than what you could get going from like zero to 10. That wasn't true for me.

35:25I thought it was like what he said was a few million, single digit million. That was per year income. Oh,$10 million in terms of net worth. Or$2 million a year was optimal if you want to do like 99 % of things that you could do. That was enough to buy it. I went to Thailand and I saw people that were visibly like I felt were extremely happy and more fulfilled than I was at the time that I went that were at like fractions of income or close to no. And I've seen scenarios where personally, like I'm happy. I'm very grateful where I'm at. I live in I live in gratitude. I can't believe the life I get to live.

36:03But I'm like, oh, I can convert more into more fulfillment and more happiness. And so, you know, I'm not going to cry if I go back to like sleeping on a couch. Right. I'll be like, it sucks, but I'm going to have a great life and I'm going to get as much as I can out of this life no matter where I'm at with the resources I have. But if I'm giving more resources, I'll know how to use them. I agree with with travel being a massive like opening of the third eye. Like when I, it's interesting because a lot of the time that we spend now, Graham, with like our friend group and stuff like that, like we're around people that for the most part have like comfortable financial lives.

36:41And then when I went to travel in like Southeast Asia and like Manila, Philippines and stuff like that, like I saw a completely different, like way different than the United States to like, like low levels of like poverty. the United States is completely different than like low levels in Southeast Asia. And for me to see that, and a lot of the times it seems like they were, they were pretty content with like, for me, that was just like, it was mind, mind blowing. And it completely like reshaped my entire understanding of like, you know, what is needed in America. Yeah. It's not, it's not need.

37:13Like when we left the caves, um, we left living in a world of need. We live in a world of want. We don't operate on a need basis. We operate on a want basis. And so a lot of the questions for us in the Western world is like, what do you want? What do you want your ride to look like? What do you think are the biggest mistakes that rich and poor people are making when it comes to their money? Not realizing that whatever it is, it's a tool for their life, for their fulfillment. They're realizing that if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is survive. Once you have survival covered, the rest is your choices.

37:54It's like, what kind of ride do you want to have? How do you want to live your life? And so I think a lot of people think that money is a goal and it's not. It's just one variable out of like the three macro variables, your wealth, your health and your time. Right. To drive fulfillment. Right. And so I think people get that formula backwards. And what would you say are the highest ROI ways to spend your money? Although really quick, I just want to mention that our sponsor, Notion, has helped keep us running smoothly on the iced coffee hour. We've used it for everything from guest planning, tracking sponsors, keeping our schedule organized.

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39:28And it's absolutely free to try out at Notion.com slash iced coffee. We also have a link down below in the description. Try it there. Thank you so much to Notion for sponsoring this episode. we were just talking about that like some of the horror in terms of fulfillment the things that i found are for me anything that i'm able to do things and experience new things with friends right like most of the time like i i joke that uh if you go to the movie yourself you're either a critic or a psychopath that's not true right like some people like to go to the movies themselves but like we are wired to connect right we have whites in our eyes we can tell if somebody's looking at us from a far away distance.

40:06I think an evolutionary biologist told me that we're one of the few animals that can do that, right? All babies dance. You can go into a jungle that nobody's ever met this tribe, start playing a beat and the baby will start dancing, right? And it's a method to connect with each other, right? And so a lot of the fulfillment for me and a lot of other humans, I'm not saying that every single human, is doing interesting things, learning things, having fun with other humans, right? Because we're wired to connect. And so games, very cheap. You can make them up yourself or hikes or walking, right? Cost nothing to pay to go into a state park and go see the wonders of the state park with people you love and love hanging out with and share that experience.

40:55You can tear up a piece of paper and play werewolves and write the roles down and play a game right there. So that's a card game for those who are wondering. it's a board game and you could just cut up a piece of paper yeah the same thing with cards like well you can't do it with cards because a cart then people will know you got the six but but cards board games things like that i think those are the hardest rois uh then when you get into like money it's like boat boating trip by buying the bike tour like when you go into a city and you're visiting friends get the tour with your friends make it a goofy tour wear different hats like those are amazing right those are supersizing your trip like one of the um best parts of like a very expensive yacht trip with friends etc was like going on shore and taking the bike tour with the guides with the e-bike tour it was like this was the best day ever you know so now that you're at the point where i it's there's probably very few things financially that you want that you can't really afford like at that level what are the things that you spend your money on that really give you the most amount of joy?

41:57I think, I think anything that like, I think my boat, so the wake surf boat, I have a wake surf boat. That's awesome. I got addicted to wake surfing and that's gotta be the highest ROI thing I bought because you can put 16 people on the boat. Everybody's cheering. You're having the times of your life. It's a memory maker in spades. Like it's memory dividends upon memory dividends and new ones coming out and people, you know, giving them that experience and teaching them how to wake surf, hanging out with my daughter's friends. It's just absurd, the return on that boat. Right. People look at it and be like, that's a expensive boat.

42:33I was like, do you understand how many core memories I've had and great times and other people have had great times and connecting times that are radioactive, like friends meeting friends and talking on and them learning how to wake surf and then doing it on their own, etc. it's amazing um how much was the boat my boat because i think it was like 300 000 or something like oh i have a very fancy okay right but it's like it's as bad as i thought no it's a higher and then like even a like inst thomas like i was like inst thomas i was like oh do i want to get a boat and i was like let me get a dinghy to see how like i got a dinghy he said cruise around and just call them dinghy days all around the islands like go to the ocean the bvi in a dinghy or whatever and i was like this is amazing and then i bought you know you know you're it's one man's trash is another one's treasure like the boat i have that people like oh you got a nice really nice boat it was their tender so i bought this yeah i bought this azimuth that was like uh another guy's tender right it's my boat they're like that's a great boat you know i mean it was his tender and he's like getting a new one and i have like the most amazing time you know friends go down, I'm like, take my boat out, have a great time.

43:41So for me, that has been, you know, an amazing, amazing memory maker, amazing, fulfilling times. One of the best investments that I can make that like costs money, right? But there are other things like taking a hike with friends that cost no money, that are very fulfilling, that are really amazing times as well. So if you're giving people a blueprint, where do they start? If there's like five steps that they need to do to reach this point where they truly optimize their money? First, I think the first step is like figure out the day you think you're going to die. There's actuarial tables. You can go see your doctors, et cetera, and your health, right?

44:24Like that is like number one, right? Like when you're going to die. And then the second thing is like whatever period you want to break them down, five years, 10 years, et cetera, break them down and write as much as you can, the type of life you want to have spiritually, physically, activities wise, et cetera, what you want in those buckets, right? Like you want to have a kid and you want to see your kid go to kindergarten. You want to graduate school and you want to go to Japan. You want to learn whatever, right? Put those in each period. The further you go out, it gets harder and harder, right?

44:56Because it's hard to know what you want. You're going to discover, right? So you have to leave some for discovery, right? I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to try and learn French, whatever, right? And then when you discover it, it's like, holy, your life can go on these paths. So you have to constantly update this thing. But that is the first, first, first, first, first step, right, is what do I want out of this ride? Before we spend a nickel, before we even think about the money, what do I want out of this ride? Because you might, right, like on one extreme, it's like, all I want to do is take walks in the park, visit with grandma and play chess.

45:30I'm like, well, quit your job. That miserable job you hate. Let's get this other job. This is the amount of money you need, right? Like this is the whole, your money or your life, the fire, financial independence, retire early. Like, what do I really want out of life? Once you know that, right, we can start talking about spending, saving, grinding, not grinding, et cetera, right? What does the arc of your life look like? You know, are you the type of person that's like, I just want to garden, hang out, play chess and checkers with my friends? Are you like, I want to travel the world and be on yachts, et cetera.

46:04Or is that fulfilling for you? You know, so I think knowing who you are and what you want out of life is kind of the first step. And then after that, how do you get over the fear of spending down your money? What helps me every day when I wake up and I go into my closet, there's a clock that tells me the percent of life I've had left. You can look it up online. There's this guy that makes these clocks and you put in your birthday and, you know, it'll say like 50, 70 percent, 69 percent, whatever, wherever I'm at. Right. And I also have your life in weeks calendar, like you mark off each week. Right.

46:40And I think that that awareness of your demise and helps you get over fears. Right. You get really bold when you know you're going to die. Yeah, that's one of those weird panics I get every now and then is I just think to myself, usually people believe that like your 50s is middle age. But when you look at the average life expectancy is like 78. It really occurs before the age of 40. And like really 39 is kind of like middle age. And then I have this existential panic, like two o 'clock in the morning, I'll wake up and be like, wait a second. In a few years, is it half over? and I freak out. I'm like, wait a second, I can't be half over.

47:23Well, don't freak out. I mean, like, just take it seriously. Just realize like, wow, I have this, you know, you're young, you have a body that can transfer. You have this bio suit that responds to your wants. If you want to run, it'll let you run more. You want to lift heavy things? It'll give you muscles to lift heavy more things, right? Like it will do what you want to do, right? But eventually, and also it's like, it will say, I will last longer in the state for you too, right? I will carry you further because you are doing things. Right. And so you're in a great, great, great spot. Right. Like you got like what most Americans don't have down the ability to optimize and get more out of every single dollar you have.

48:03Right. And you're in touch with things that you value. You don't value. You're like, I don't value that Starbucks coffee. Right. A lot of people are on autopilot the other way. Right. That's why I've sold more books in Japan than I have in the U.S. Right. I've sold over 500 ,000 books in Japan and like 100, 200 ,000 books here. And it's been out in Japan for far less time than it has been here. Because the Japanese are notorious savers. They don't have the like, we're broke problem. And this book isn't just for the rich people. It's really about how do you allocate your life resources? If you have zero money, you still have a decision on whether or not you go goofing off and playing cards with your friends.

48:44Or you go to grandma and hang out with grandma before she dies, right? It's a book about choices. How long did it take you to write the book Die With Zero? You could say a lifetime because the ideas didn't come like, oh, I got it overnight, right? There were like events that happened in my life and I wrestled with this idea for a long time. But it took like 18 months, I think, from like, okay, I'm going to write this book to getting an outline to, you know, working with a writer, going through it, writing chapters, tearing up. I'm out giving to a friend, him reading it, giving feedback. I'm like, you're right.

49:19That doesn't make sense. This is too confusing. Going back and trying to get a book that speaks to the most people. Right. I wanted something to save my life. Right. And I've said this before. And people are like, what the do you mean save your life? And I'm like, well, listen, if he got hit by a bus, right, or whatever, and I went in and did the cardio and then mouth to mouth or whatever, all the things. and he came to life like, oh, you saved my life. You know what's true? You know what's the most true thing about that? He's still gonna die. He's 100 % gonna die. He's just not gonna die that day, right?

49:56And so what does he get when he doesn't die that day? Well, he gets more I love yous, more walks in the parks, more trips to Japan, more all the things he wants out of life, right? All the fulfillment that he wants out of life. He gets more to do that before his final destination, okay? So when I write a book that teach you about optimizing your life and having more fulfillment as opposed to wasting it away, right? I'm saving your life. I'm saving a piece of your life. I'm giving you more. The same as this in the case where I did that for him. And so I thought about that for me and I was like, you're afraid of running out of money.

50:29I'm afraid of wasting my life. That is my number one fear is wasting this ride. How often do you not follow the rules of your book? Often, often. because autopilot, I think, is a default mode of humans, right? I think we become good at things in different areas and they become automatic, just like driving, right? Like when you first went on to drive, it was like chaos, right? It was like, I got a signal and you thought, hit the signal button, check the mirror, you know, is very like, right? And park and whatever. And now you're driving home, you're listening on the phone. You don't even know how you got to where you were, right?

51:04It just becomes automatic, right? Even your job, like editing a video, putting the thumbnails right. Like at first it was hard. And do I put it here? And then you're like, cut, cut, snip, snip, snip, whatever. Right. And there's some creativity and changes, right? Anybody who does sales or etc., their job becomes easy to them. It becomes a routine. All their activities become routine. And that helps you survive. Right. You don't walk up to a door, like I say in a book, and go, is this a door? You know, round thing seems like a door. You're just like door, open door, go. Right. Memory of a dividend right there and autopilot.

51:37Serving you well. But that doesn't help you thrive, right? And so I need to be reminded by my wife, by what I wrote, viscerally to get off autopilot and think about my decisions so that I have the most fulfilling life possible. So that when I'm back on autopilot, I set up the processes and systems that I have a very fulfilling ride. What's your advice to people with a low income? I mean, for everybody, it's the health aspect of it. Like there is no bigger single determinant on your fulfillment than is your health. Right. And those choices to be healthy. Right. And you can be healthy with low money or no money.

52:20Right. You can hike. You can walk. You can avoid eating. Right. But it's really to think about your life, the same thing to think about what choices can you make and what will be more fulfilling for you. Right. It's that mindset. Right. Is, you know, should I spend time with my daughter reading books with my daughter or hanging out with my friends? Or should I be going to grandmother's house? Like, what is going to give me the most fulfilling ride? Right. Right. It's not a rich person's book. It's a living person's book. Right. This book is about living. Right. Like, you know, there's lots of quotes about like most people, most people, most people die in their 30s and are buried in their 70s.

53:05You know what I mean? Right. Like, you just don't want to be that. And when you travel the world, you're like, holy, these these poor people are living here. Right. They're having a great time. They're doing things. They're they're they're happy. They're having a fulfilling life. Right. They're they're they're living life. And a lot of people are rich on autopilot, saving, saving, saving, saving for another day, for another life that they're not going to have. How often do you try new experiences to see if you enjoy them? Often. I try and just like whatevs, you know, I'm very much in around to find out mode.

53:38That's kind of like my life. Like one of the best experiences I had or I discovered is like riding a train and like there's these trains that go on tours. And I was like, why don't I want to go on a fancy ass train? You got to wear a suit or whatever to go in the dining car or just, you know, somewhat formal. And I was like, OK, reluctantly went on this Orient Express for three days and turned out I loved it. and discovered this whole world of riding trains across Canada. There's one my friends were on in Peru. I did one in Japan. It was like one of the best trips of our lives. And so I realized that it'd be a shit world if I knew it all and that I don't know it all.

54:14And one of the things I don't know is what I like. What would you say are the biggest wastes of money that you've personally spent on or things that you spent money on expecting fulfillment, but it ended up just being nothing? Oh, of course. like like i i thought like when i first got rich i was like oh yeah i chopped up a lamborghini i had a mclaren and i kept like buying these cars thinking like i'm gonna like the car and i just felt like a douche driving around in the car i didn't like it they were loaded around they couldn't handle potholes i'm in houston and i was just like i hate this i really hate it i don't like it i feel awkward in it uh and it's just not me right now somebody else might get value out of But I was just like, I didn't know how to be rich for me.

54:57I knew how to be rich for what was advertised on TV. Right. I was an idiot on autopilot. It's a different kind of autopilot. Right. Like I was the super save everything, blah, blah, blah guy autopilot. And I was the idiot spending money on goofy autopilot that. And the only reason why it was goofy is because it wasn't me. I didn't sit down, get in touch with myself, understand, like, what do I really enjoy? What do I really like? What is really, what is a car really for? So what car do you drive now? I usually Uber or something, but I have a Toyota Sequoia. The funny thing is I did buy a Ferrari Spider that I never drive just because it's such a beautiful piece of machinery.

55:38And you can get enjoyment out of like looking at it and stuff. I do. I just don't drive it as much. It's like, you know what I mean? It's like, to me, it's just weird. It's just weird. I mean, like if I was a race car guy or whatever, I would just drive it all the time. Like, this is what I do. I drive fast cars. But I don't even like driving. I hate driving. What would you say are your biggest financial failures? I guess I tried to do this big, large infrastructure project in El Salvador in California and took like X years permitting this thing. Won a contract and then they voided the contract and the whole thing was rigged and I couldn't do it.

56:16Right. I learned a lot on it, but vaporized a ton of money. And then movies. I did movies. You did movies. But the movies wasn't financially, that wasn't a disaster. The bond part, like back in movies, that was like the biggest. Could you explain the difference? I'm not familiar. So there's financing of movies, right? And there's all the structures, right? There's the equity, there's the debt, and there's a senior debt, right? And I took on a significant position in a firm that did like the debt, right? Thinking it was safe, wiped out. But you produced movies. Yeah. You funded the production. I did it.

56:50I was on the set. I grinded it. I've edited. What movie? Written sides. I've done the whole thing. Like big movies? That one would be. I don't know. Bad movies. Big movies and bad movies. I mean, I don't know. Have you ever heard a movie called Unthinkable? I'm not a big movie. Baytown Outlaws. Cat Run. Dark Under the Stars. I don't know. Eight, nine movies. I'm done. And where do you think you went wrong on those investments? Well, the movies weren't like wrong on the investment. like you go into a movie knowing you're not going to make money in the movie right like if you look at the the movie business as a whole right like back in the day when actually they released movies there would be like 160 to 200 movies released per year and like the top 50 make all the box office and no independent movie is ever in there ever ever ever ever ever right if it's not picked up by a major studio but there's 600 film there's There's at least 600 to 1 ,000 films with a budget over a million that get a rating, which means they intended to be released, right, or sold over a million dollars a year.

57:56And you're not a studio. So all the movies that are independent, they are in this other field trying to, like, sell rights in, like, Europe, et cetera, and grind it out. And the only people making movies and money in the movies are the actors and the unions helping you, you know, key grip and those guys, right, not salary. Right. So it was funny because we would be on set and some of the, they would be complaining, like, you guys are making money. I was like, I will gladly give you my points if you will work for free. If you guys will do all this free, I will gladly give you all my points. What did you expect the ROI to be?

58:31Negative 33%. So why would you put money in an investment that you expected to lose money? Why do people do art? It's not an investment, right? Like, if you're, you're. This is what I tell. It's a passion project. This is what I tell my friends. Like, if you're going in a movie business, you either want to go to the parties and sleep with stars. You want to make a piece of art that's never been done, you know, or be a patron of art or say something, right? Make a piece, right? Like, those are the ways your return is coming from. Because I always tell them, if you're in it for the money. This episode is brought to you by Facebook.

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59:43Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. you're not going to do that. Actually, I would say if you're in it for the money, back in the day, you used to be able to go to Sony and be like, I want to invest in your slate and give them money. And they would put you in your slate and you make like an 8 % return, right? They'd have a flop, a flop, a hit or whatever. Because if you don't have that distribution and that power, you're done for. Now, there are always exceptions to the rules.

1:00:21Like if you make a horror movie where people do not care about the actors and the cast, et cetera, you can make a low budget horror movie, grind it out, sell it and be profitable and keep doing that, right? But if you're trying to be creative and I just wanna make a movie about this story and this is a great idea, you're done for. So here's another thing is how do you balance enjoyment, saving, spending in different areas of time in your life? Like 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. For me, when I'm considering, okay, I'm 26 years old, I can go out on a Friday night. For example, two nights ago, I went out and got a really nice dinner with my friends.

1:00:52And then after that, we went to some bars like over in Las Vegas on the strip. and I stayed out until probably like 3 a.m. And now I'm like, okay, how does that affect my lifespan, right? Like the amount of money that I spent, like in your 20s, should you be doing these sorts of things that could shorten your lifespan? Yeah, I was on Peter Atiyah's podcast and we talked about this and the purpose of your health is to drive your fulfillment, not the other way around. And so it's not about being in maximized health. Like I don't want to be the healthiest that ever lived like Brian Johnson, right?

1:01:25Because why? I don't want to be in a lab, like a boy in a bubble, right? In the most shape, right? Not having a fulfillment. So that's an extreme example, right? Of me saying that your health is a tool for you to be fulfilled. Your wealth is a tool for you to be fulfilled. Your time is your tool for you to have a fulfilling life. And so for you, that time with your friends that you can't get back, if that was fulfilling, yes, you'll die a minute earlier. Who cares? It's not about living the longest life. It's about having the most fulfilling life. And if you accept that, right, that axiom, then yes, there's times you should do things that are unhealthy.

1:02:02What about for the audience watching? They're in their 20s. Let's just start there. What are the experience that you found to maximize your 20s? I mean, every single story I tell, aside from like personal feasts that I need to overcome, involved other friends, involved things, right? Right. Like we scrounged up the people and we went on a trip here and hilarity ensues and learnings and fun and sometimes fights and disasters and whatever. But like now it's like, oh, my God, remember that time. Right. So I would do so much more of that that I didn't do in my 20s. Right. And, you know, you think your core friend group who you're still going to love throughout the rest of your life, you get to spend all this time with them.

1:02:48You don't. You don't. They pair off. They have kids. They have other priorities. They chase jobs. They have other dreams, etc. And so I would create more moments, activities, and excuses to spend time with them. I actually say that most of the things I do or the activities we have, it's just an excuse to hang out with our friends and do comedy show, a trip, boat ride. Yeah, like wake surfing, whatever. But I don't do it alone. Yeah, I like movies, but I don't watch them alone. Yeah, I like clubs, but I don't do them alone. You know what I mean? And so I would look for more activities to do that.

1:03:25What about in your 30s? One thing in your book that really hit is that there are times in your life to enjoy certain activities. And there's no sense wasting time, let's just say hypothetically, in your 20s going on a train when your 20s could be spent hiking up a mountain that you can't do in your 60s. Right, right. I think there's a balance. I don't think it's zero of that, right? But, you know, what you want to do is like if you're forced into a decision, right, point between a more athletic and physically demanding activity versus a more sedentary type activity, you want to shift those more athletic activities to your 20s and 30s and early 40s and the more sedentary activities to later in life, right, if you're trying to get the high score, right?

1:04:11Because just think about it was a video game, like, and we got fulfillment points for activities and we laid them out there. Right. If you have your character, right. And this character has this decay curve. Right. If you have your character trying to do all the physical activities later in life, like, you know what I mean? Then you're not going to get to do them all. You're not going to get the high score. Right. Like you'd reverse them. Right. And you'd be able to do them all and you get the high score. Right. And so life is like Tetris. You know, you kind of got to get the order right. It's the same thing with activities in your life.

1:04:40Right. Like if you delay hiking Kilimanjaro to your 80s and heliskiing and all and, you know, walking all these cities. Right. Like until you're later in life, you're probably not going to get the high score. Right. There's a kind of that meme that floats around about the couple's sleep in the gondola. Have you ever seen that one? No, I haven't. Look it up on the Internet. There's like this older couple asleep. And it's like reasons why you should travel when you're young. One thing that's a little bit harder of a conversation is if you're younger, let's say in your 20s, maybe early 30s, something like that, or even late teens, and you're working a job, and maybe you can save$500,$1 ,000 if you're lucky at the end of every month.

1:05:22Like most people out there, like it's hard to have a big financial cushion. Maybe even it's just like a couple hundred bucks. Right. How do you justify then spending that money on experiences and activities rather than putting that in something like a Roth IRA or cutting out on certain experiences and activities to then be able to at least have some sort of like minimum financial standard? How do you how do you draw the line on? Well, I think, you know, in each individual person, they're going to have a certain financial trajectory. Are they going to be making more money in the future or less?

1:05:57Are they going to be making the same? For those who are going to make more money in the future, it's a no-brainer. The experience is you can have a higher return on fulfillment than the 8%, 10 % return you're going to get in a Roth IRA. And on top of that, you are taking from your poor self and giving it to your future rich self. So it's just completely out of the way. backwards, right? For those who are going to have steady or declining income, then, you know, we are bumping up against survival and we need to save money for survival. So it's really a question of where are we on the survival curve and is our income going to be growing outside of savings, right?

1:06:35So you just have to consider your job. Is it scalable? Do you think that your income is going to be going up over time? You have to have an honest conversation with yourself if you think that you have the skills and wherewithal to be able to make more money when you're older. Correct. And, you know, I don't get into, like, the making money and earning money, but there's, like, there's side hustles. There's all kinds of ways. Like, one thing I realized, like, for those who are, like, have, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money. Well, a really quick, fun story here.

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1:08:06Turn your big business ideas into... So sign up for a$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash ICH. Guys, it is$1 to change your life forever. I've had several Shopify stores. Graham has had several. We've had several people on this podcast that have become millionaires because of their Shopify store. So it's a$1 per month trial. You can change your life forever at shopify.com slash ICH, all lowercase. There's also a link down below in the description. Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. But one thing I realized, like for those who are like have, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money.

1:08:41Do you think that applies to the average person? Because I realize where we're sitting right now. And for those that aren't aware, this is Caleb Hammer's studio. And all the time is people on this side of the desk that have blown thousands of dollars on trips or experiences. And they're going into credit card debt because they spent all of their money and then their car broke down. We're not saying be foolish. Yeah. Like, I mean. So where do you draw the line? I mean, like you want to you want to consider these things. Right. Like there is a line. Right. Like I've been on both sides. Right. I've been on the super frugal.

1:09:15I've been like, I have no money. Like I have I literally have no money and have credit card debt and I make an obscene amount of money. Right. For my age at the time. But we want to do is thinking like, what are the fulfilling things I can do within my budget? And what is my future income look like? Right. And for each person, that's going to be different. Am I eventually going to hit a home run type of guy? Or am I a guy that's like, I'm going to have a safe job and this is it and this is my income and what I save is going to have to sustain me for the rest of my life, right? And there are all kinds of different people with different type of risk appetites with different types of opportunity sets.

1:09:51It made me think back to something I haven't thought about in probably 15 years or so. I was 11-ish around this time. And I remember - So envious. I went to Chase Bank or Washington Mutual, whatever it was back at the time, a long time ago. And I deposited, I think it was like 50 or so bucks because it was like my birthday money or something. And then I looked at the amount of money I had on my savings account and my brother went with me. I mean, it was Christmas because we both went together. And my balance was like$400. I was lucky. Like my parents, you know, I'd get some money and stuff for my birthday and Christmas.

1:10:26So I had like 400 bucks by like 11 or something like that. and then my brother had 700 and he's two and a half years older than me and i was like wow like if i save my birthday and my christmas money in two and a half years i'll have 700 right you know but i also remember like there were games that i wanted pokemon had came out and like i wanted to buy pokemon but it's like 50 bucks and like all my friends had it and i became very frugal because i saw my brother was very frugal and he was able to save 300 um and now i think like wow like 300 dollars like like obviously that's a sizable chunk of change you could still do some really cool things with that but like the amount that it means to me now versus the amount that it meant to me when i was 11 or 12 is just like incomparable right you so you have it you have like yeah and and now i like i try to apply that between now and you know wherever my future is at while obviously remaining you know like i would say conscious and like accurate hopefully um but yeah it's it's completely i don't know what the right answer is for you but if you are thinking about it and you're modeling it out, you are closer to an optimal life than just autopiling it, right?

1:11:33Like you were taught a very good skill and something to have in your toolkit, which is saving at a young age. But you remember at the expense of a fulfilling childhood, like buying a bike would be much better for you than that 400 bucks. You can't remember 400 bucks, right? If you had a bike, you would remember all those times biking around with your friends and all the memories you have. And that's what you'd be talking about instead of this, like, I had 400 bucks saved in a bank useless story that you have right now. Right. The skill is useful, but the fulfillment and the memory divisms are completely missing at that age.

1:12:06Right. And so what you don't want to have happen is that it happened now. And at the same time, being mindful of like, I don't want to be busted. Right. The trick is to be mindful, but it's hard because, like you said, it's developing the skill of saving or like developing the anti skill of just spending all of your money and getting stuck on this like hedonistic pursuit of life. Yeah, the skill is living. The skill we want is living. We want to thrive, right? And what thrive means to each individual person is different, right? So I don't give a shit about saving. I don't give a shit about spending.

1:12:37I care about fulfillment and thriving. Those are just tools for the big F, the big fulfillment, right? My health, my wealth, my time, all my decisions, right? It's all for my fulfillment. And then the hardest question, which I don't write about in the book is, well, what is fulfilling? I'm like, I don't know. That's up to you, right? Like there's tons of books on like how to live a fulfilling life and you can believe one or whatever, according to your values, your religion, whatever, whatever, whatever belief system you have. Like you kind of have an idea what you're filming this, but like you need to get off autopilot and think about that, what that means in each period of your life.

1:13:11But saving, spending, I don't give a shit. Fulfillment. What do you think is more dangerous, overspending or underspending? From my fear point, it's underspending. Because the thing I'm worried about is wasting my life. Because I think for particularly you guys, you have no risk. If I take all your money away from you guys now, you're going to make it back. right you're gonna go get a job you'll have a well-paying job you're gonna have a great life i can vaporize your money right now and you're still gonna have a successful life you have zero risk zero you guys are intelligent people with great skill sets right uh subject verb agreement you know you think through things you are blessed with mental acuity you have zero risk zero it's so funny i see us have a lot of risk i know you live in fear yeah you you get there's monster opposite of that you're a monsters under the bed type of guy you know what i mean you have monsters under bed but like i look at you guys i'm like these guys i was i was even telling jack i'm like yo jack we should prepare for like the podcast maybe not doing as well because of what's happening in the markets and i'm like the last time these have happened like we ended up losing out on quite a few contracts it might happen it might happen you might lose it all.

1:14:28I'm just saying, you're going to be fine. I'll come to you in 10 years and I'll be like, did it matter? But like, no, we figured this out. I got a job here. I got whatever. Like, you're easily to employ and you're also easy to start another business. Whichever path you choose, the safe route working for somebody else or the wild adventurous side of an entrepreneur. And I think entrepreneurs are like, holy, I can die. I can die. I can die. The business can die. You won't. In fairness, here's another thing is that some people just have differences in terms of where they get their enjoyment from in terms of expense.

1:15:00Like Graham, the things that he likes in his life tend to be a little bit more on the pricey side. Like he wanted an aquarium and kudos to him for doing this, but he spent a lot of money on this aquarium. He wants experiences, for example, once again, not trying to say the group, but like he took this group out the index on this very lavish. Oh, 40 grand. He dropped 40 grand for two days on this on this group that he has. And for him, like that is like what he wants to be doing for me, pickleball. And the cost is maybe$300 a year. And that like, like, so it's easier for me to have, you know, I don't see money and happiness in the same sort of thing.

1:15:40Whereas other people, they, their money is directly tied to their, like some people are also more materialistic. Like Graham genuinely does get happiness. Like the guy that has that nice cars in the group, like having nice cars and having nice watches and this and that. I would say to a certain degree, I like collecting things. I'm a collector. So you have zero, zero, zero, zero risk. You should be taking maximum risk, right? And he has a little bit of risk. But when you're young, you're still going to discover things that you like. You didn't know pickleball existed four years ago. True. Right?

1:16:11So now you're like, it's pickleball, right? But four years from now, it's going to be the other thing, right? It's always going to be pickleball. He's like, no, it's pickleball. I love her. She is my best. It's always going to be pickleball. But you're going to discover other things that you like. Maybe pickleball will always be number one, right? But there'll be other things that drive your fulfillment, just like he will as well, because life is discovery. And the more you live it, the more you'll discover and the more you learn. It's a very sad, sad, sad world if you discovered it all. So to be intentional about how you should be spending your resources, time, money, et cetera, mental energy, what do you think?

1:16:44You just read certain books? Do you meditate? Do you write down and just sit in a room? Oh, wow. Like I think we went over like one of the first steps is like, be aware of what you die, break your life off into periods. I call them time bucketing, right? And then think about the experiences you want, but realize like you are going to discover what you like. Like you didn't know your wife at one point, right? Or your girlfriend or pickleball or whatever. Like you discovered these things and realize like that is life, right? Life is going to be discovery. And I think like, you know, my belief is having a fulfilling life is continual discovery.

1:17:18And so you're gonna be out there. You didn't know you wanted to do a podcast. You didn't know you wanted to have this guest. You didn't know you liked the book Die With Zero. Do you like it? I hope you like it. Anyway, you know, so like just remember that like that is what's going to be driving it. Like there's a there's a you ever hear the thing like, would you rather be the king of England and 15 something or or like lower middle class or poor today? Right. And I think the answer is obvious, you know, poor today. Right. And people cite reasons, different reasons. Right. But I think one of the main reasons is the speed of travel.

1:17:55The average poor person could live the entire life of the king in two months. Right. They could take a bus to Florida and you know what I mean? They could probably buy a super saver ticket on Southwest and go, you know, have an adventure and go around, which would take a lifetime for a king. Right. And on the way he did this. and oh, he went to this concert and he did that and then he saw a show and whatever. King can do that, right? Aside from that he had straw for tall, the paper and would die of like simple things or whatever. Forget all that. Just the speed of travel, which allows you to move through this world and experience more, right?

1:18:38Allows you to condense more, right? What period of time in your life has been the best so far? Now, it's always now, but I think, you know, I was the good old days. I think courting my current wife and the engagement and my daughters, you know, one just turned 21, one just turned 18. It seems like it's the best time, right? But I've been grateful for every period. Like sometimes I'll go back and be like, oh, those were the greatest times in high school. We had no money, et cetera. Like being busted in New York City trying to make it was like an amazing time in my life. But it was a different it was filled with activities that were meant for that period that don't really transfer like running around and spending money and being broke and trying to make it in New York City and chasing girls don't fit into this time period of my life.

1:19:33But it was a great time. It was a great time being young and single in New York. Right. And how do you balance this book with raising your daughters and making sure they don't grow up spoiled, but they appreciate the work and sacrifice that went into this, but also enjoying life? It's the same thing. Like my message, the physics that govern my body are the same physics that govern my daughter's body, right? Like they will grow, they will reach mental maturity, calculation power at 28. They will reach physical maturity at 33. They will plateau and decline. And so, you know, I want them to go out and what resources they have, their health, wealth and time, right?

1:20:10And whatever resources I will give them, right? Which would be part of their wealth to use that to drive their fulfillment. You know, my goal is to give them the value system and the answer is to help them navigate the world and then to let them go out and make their own mistakes. Right. Like, yeah, I've made millions and millions of mistakes. I will continue to do that. I'm a mistake making machine. But that's part of the ride. Do you think there's an amount of money that you could give them that might stifle some of their creativity? Yes. 100%. OK. It's funny because I was talking to a friend and kind of shifted my view a little bit.

1:20:41He's like, look, our kids, you know, they want an iPad, they get an iPad. You know, we didn't have an iPad. Like, you know, even if we were well, like, necessity was part and struggle was part of the ingredients that made us, right? It wasn't like the only ingredient, but it was part of the ingredient. And they are missing in many ways, not completely that ingredient, right. That, that gave us like whatever advantage, right. This some advantage. And so, you know, my friend is like, you have to pay for that. You have to cover that because you robbed them of the struggle. Right. And you don't mean to rob them, but like, if you made it, like, you don't want to like, it's like, oh, I don't want to live a busted life.

1:21:28What was the purpose of making it? Like, I could have, I could have lived a simpler life and I could have made that. choice. I'm going to say, you know what? We're living on a farm. We're going to grow our own potatoes. We're going to live a simple life or whatever. And my kids will be like, okay, I have this grit and necessity. And if I want an iPad, I got to go hustle. And then if I want these things, I got to go hustle. And they would have that as part of their repertoire at a greater index than what they have now. And they could go out and make it. And I've robbed them of that because I didn't want to go live on a farm.

1:21:55I'm using extreme examples, right? But you get the idea. And so if I keep giving them money, I would completely, they would lose it all, right? You know what I mean? They would lose it completely, right? Like not have that necessity. And I think it's part of the ingredient of navigating the world. And how do you balance giving to your children versus giving to yourself? I pick an amount that I'm going to give them. I don't know with the, like in the book, I talk about when you should be giving the inheritance to the kids and not make it a bequest, which is absurd, but not the amount, right? It could be zero.

1:22:33It could be a zillion dollars. I think that's very personal. But for me, the thing is, is you need to come up with a number. So you're not just using that excuse of, oh, it's just going to go to my kids when I die and they're 60, which is absurd. It's just an absurd thing. They're not, they're not kids then, right? Like more than two thirds of their life has passed them by. Right. And their ability to enjoy that money has declined, et cetera. You're giving them money at the wrong, wrong time. And it's completely not thought out. It's not deliberate. It's random. It's silly. What you should do is figure out what you want to give them and then spend all your money down till you die.

1:23:09And then they have their money. It's protected. You get sued. You know what I mean? It doesn't take that money. You do something stupid and you lose all your money. Their money is protected. It's separate. It's their money. It doesn't mean they get to go spend it when they're 19 or 20. It's in a trust and it turns over. to them when it turns over to them, right? And if you don't have all the money made, you just put money in yearly until it gets there, right? If there's some uncertainty, but there's ways to do it. But the whole book is about living off autopilot and being deliberate and thinking these things through, not just be like, oh, when I die, my money, I'll go to my kids, right?

1:23:41That worked when, you know, a couple hundred years ago where you were a farmer, your kids were a farmer, their kids were going to be a farmer, et cetera, right? So like you died, they take over the farm. They do the same thing. And he takes it from or he's a blacksmith. My son's a blacksmith. They'll always be blacksmith. We're the Smiths. Right. Like that's not how it works nowadays. Right. You know, you don't just turn over the family enterprise and that's what they do. Since you wrote the book, is there anything that has changed your perspective or that you would change about the book if you had the power to snap your fingers and edit it?

1:24:10No, I've never been like I've done, I think over 54 podcasts. I've done a couple of talks. I don't like to do talks in the beginning. Like they want you to go around and do all talks. Nothing where I've been stumped. I'm like, oh my gosh, I should change this, you know, as a principle. Like, I think it's like very axiomatic. It's not like new. It's full life cycle hypothesis, like laid out, right? Like, have you guys heard of that? It's essentially income smoothing about like basically, you know, taking from your richer self in the future and giving to you now so that you have a more fulfilling life, et cetera.

1:24:43Two guys, I think they won a prize for it. So you can look it up. but um what is the life cycle hypothesis it's essentially it's it's basically the income smoothing like when you're in your poorer self right now you should be going to somewhat in debt okay because your income is going to grow and you're going to be able to extinguish it in order to get the experiences you want to have now so it's exactly it's essentially what you're yeah like it's like i didn't know about full life cycle hypothesis i learned about it when i hired an economist when I wanted to make this program. And I was like, holy shit.

1:25:14It's like, to me, it was like a sign that like, I am thinking about this life problem correctly. Right. Like if, if people discover the laws of physics, right. They didn't invent them. Right. Like you just, you discover a truth. Right. And so I discovered a truth. I think, you know, I have friends that are like, we want the 600 page version of this. We want, like, I didn't want to write it like a cookbook, like do this, do that, do this, do that. Like it's modeled a lot on your money or life where there's like exercises at the end or like suggestions at the end. So there's a couple suggestions at the end.

1:25:50But whenever I go give a talk, they're like, I want the cookbook. You know what I mean? I want more examples of how to do this, right? I want more examples to how to spend my money or how to save. I want more examples of annuities and things or how they work. I want More examples of grant or annuity trusts or ways to transfer your money. Like a 600-page version would give people like kind of like what to do. But I didn't think most of the value is getting the concept, right? It's like just getting the concept, right? Once you get force equals MV squared, right? Then you do all kinds of wonderful things, right?

1:26:25Once you get E equals MC squared, you get satellites that get the timing right and all these other kinds of things. So it's like really about getting the formula right and the concepts right. And then people can apply them individually as they see fit. So where do you invest your own money? I am not an example. Like I tell this people like I like futures and I'm not a role model. I think I can be an inspiration. Right. I make way too many mistakes to be a role model. Like do not live my life. You are. But I think I can be an inspiration. You know what I mean? I think I can be inspiring. And so, you know, I take maximum risk, right?

1:27:03Like most of my money is either tied up in my fund, right? Or the things I have that I have a lot of private placement, too. Like I probably have way too much money in venture capital and private placement. Right. Like because now I'm like you say, like I'm a liquid. Like, what do I want to go here? I don't I can't get the cash. Right. And so that's generally where it is. And now I've actually put a needle scratch to all that because of my age. A lot of friends like, oh, yeah, you're going to make money in 10 years. I'm like, 10 years. I'm trying to have a party now. So do you have this cash on the side that you're like, this is my money that I don't touch that is there for a rainy day if I absolutely need it just in case?

1:27:43I used to. I don't. Because I have houses and assets that I can liquidate in a fire sale. And even if it's half, it's like, I'm OK. I'm quite OK and quite planning to have a lot less money. Not right now, but like if it happens, it happens. I'm not ego attached to it. It seems like this has been something that has been you for decades, though. I mean, just to be able to trade. Yes. Like I've been trading. Like that and take on that risk. I think your risk tolerance is probably 10 times higher than mine. Yeah, it's very high. And, you know, one of the things people say, like, what would you say to somebody in their 20s or 30s?

1:28:20Like, what advice do you give them? I say in every area of your life, take the most risk you can possibly stand and then add a little bit more. So I guess here's my philosophy. I feel like you could take a ton of risk when it comes to your time and career. But then when it comes to your money and investments, you could play it safe there. And so that's like maybe a good balance where like, yeah, I'm going to gung ho on like making as much money as you can. But then once you have it, I would say take all that money and invest it in yourself. Go start the business that you have inside your head.

1:28:51That's the riskiest thing you could probably do. Right. That's going to give you the most yield. I'd say the savings. But that's just me. Remember, that's just me. you can always go get a job so you're not going to be broke you will never be broke and he will never be broke because you can always go get a job something what's the safety for do you have any advice for people who want to start their own business make sure you're the type of guy that can be an entrepreneur and take the risk i think a lot of people it's romanticized a lot and not everybody is cut out to do that maybe you're the guy that needs to get paid first right not the entrepreneur that's dipping into a savings to pay the employees and and do the vision etc that hold and like do your best.

1:29:30Like a lot of people think an idea is the thing and it's actually the execution. I'm sure you're very well aware of that, right? Like podcast sounds like a great idea, but people don't realize like how much work goes into editing, getting the thumbnails, getting the guests, coordinating with the guests, running around, you know, dealing with sponsors, you know, not being too commercial. So people turn out like just so much that goes into making this podcast entertaining and running it as a business than just like, I got a great idea, right? And so make sure you're that type of person and that you can take that risk.

1:30:02How do you know if you're that type of person? I mean, you can develop it. Like, you know, are you the type of person that's okay going busto for a bit or having to go back to work? You know, I always like people like yourself that are like, you can easily get a 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 ,000,$200 ,000 a year job. Like you have no risk. There's no real financial risk. You only have ego risk. You know, it seems like the common thread between everything you're saying is just being hyper intentional. Yes. About everything. You got the book. You got the book. The book is about being intentional, living an intentional life.

1:30:38And there's a lot of other books out there that come at it from a different angle. Right. They talk about different things about intentionality, being aware, being conscious, living a conscious life. But that is the whole book in a nutshell. What have you learned from Dan Bolzerian? I've learned that I don't want to be too famous. That's one of the reasons why I don't like somebody's like, you did TED talk. I was like, no way. Well, I do a TED talk. I wanted to do a TED talk and originally, but like, I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be too famous. Right. You want to be like Z level famous.

1:31:07You get a nod, a little dopamine hit. You're you're legitimized. But like you can be anonymous, like you can walk around like one in 300 people recognize you. Right. What's the risk with being too famous for the life I want to leave? It robs you of your life. I would completely lose because you cannot enjoy life like you cannot when you are famous like it's constant people coming up to you wanting a picture wanting to talk to you trying to force a conversation to connect with you. So they're not bad people, right? But like they get to see somebody famous and they want to take a picture. Like when else are they going to bump into you?

1:31:41And they want to have a conversation about somehow you're connected or how they know you. And you're robbed constantly. Like you're in a bubble. You have security and you can't go anywhere and you can't do things. And like, I like to travel to Europe and walk around the shops and meet the people and not be known. And it's a great, great life of discovery. But like, if I was famous, it's gone in a heartbeat. And then I have too much money because I can't spend it on the things I like doing. And then you have to worry about people who are, you just, we're herd animals, right? Like we get fame brain.

1:32:14So people act different around you and you can't have authentic connections with new people because the fame is always in the way, you know? And so it's off. It's really, really bad. The only thing fame gets you is sex with the opposite. So if you're a famous woman or a famous man, you can have all the sex you want with all types of people. What else did you learn from Dan? Kind of the idea of what is more powerful as a sexual attractant, whether it's fame or money. And we always knew it was fame, not money. right? You always know like the broke drummer in the band is going to get way more laid than the rich guy, right?

1:32:56He's the rich guy's not even getting in a club because he's not cool, right? He's got to buy his way in if he can. But we didn't realize like it was a hundred times more powerful or a thousand times more powerful. It is way, way, way, way, way more powerful than anything. We had Greg Doucette on and not that he's like a love guru or anything, but he said he read a study that what was it thirty thousand dollars in income every increment up thirty thousand dollars is the equivalent of one extra inch on your height and he says that height is like super important that's what he said yeah i think i think for the average person uh non-famous uh height matters dan's short right but he's famous it doesn't matter i don't care how tall you'd be six foot three trust fund whatever the famous guy wins prince was short he everybody guys and girls i'd be curious to see like these guys are short like the most actors that you see that are like you know people are screaming at and girls are throwing their bras at they're short doesn't work well tom cruise is short you know i'd be curious to see the correlation between one inch of height and 10 000 followers and just see like where the optimal is because i'm sure being six foot two is equivalent to like yeah for the average person that's out there like just overall height there's got to be some height a comedian said this i'm gonna steal it but he's like height is to guys what titties are to women height is just titties you know what i mean it's male it's like you know like it's like oh wow he's got nice tits like it's an attractive right like and so like you know i i i don't know like those those things matter um but you know the experiment that Dan ran was what does fame do for you right like in the in the pursuit of getting famous in order to to to get women and that hedonic treadmill fame is extremely powerful and it taught me that I don't want to be famous like I was wanting to go that route and then I was like oh no no no no no for the people who come up to you and recognize you what are some of the most impactful stories that you've heard from people who have read your book and changed yeah like originally it was like oh because i'm a trader like people knew me from natural gas and trading like very small niche and then it was poker because i played poker on tv in the movies etc and then recently it's all been like you're built poker and you wrote the book die with zero um i get a lot of stories about how people have completely needle scratched their life and woken up and now they're pursuing their life and so it could be time of like now i spend time with my family or i take my whole family on this trip or now we're doing this you know i'm i haven't been living and now i'm living but it's some version of they were on autopilot and now they're not right and it's it's amazing it's a great feeling like it's overwhelming though it's a little bit because it's like oh i can't you know what i mean like one of those guys i can't little old me yeah i just can't take it it's like it was this was a side project right this was like a side thing like fuck it it's like it's a side quest yeah it was definitely it was a side quest like i'm gonna write this book i'm gonna save my life like the doctor's like you need to write a book i'm finally gonna write a book i've been talking forever it's time to back it up you know went through the grueling process wrote the book i really wanted to get out there but now i'm like holy it's out there you know what i mean it's coming back ever had someone come up to you and say hey man i i spent too much money never never in my life i mean i get i get i mean i get the the the beggars on instagram like i went broke gambling or whatever or something like that but never it's like i read my book your book because it's not about spending all your money like an idiot you know what i mean it's about having the most fulfilling life like the title is catching right it's supposed to catch you in an airport it's like what does he mean die with zero this is you know read the book holy it's not it's not what it says it right like so the book is about you know if i wanted to have like a kind of like i don't know what is the the own network type title You know what I mean?

1:36:53It would be like, have the most fulfilling life. You know what I mean? Get the most fulfilling life or fulfillment. It's for you or something like that. Right. And I'm like, no, let's stick with the axiomatic principle is that you should use all your resources up before you die. I'm in a lot of financial independence groups and your book is the only one that's consistently mentioned probably on a daily basis. Yeah, like the fire guys, like there was a Mr. Money Mustache, right? Like he's one of the guys who read the book and like kind of shifted. And, you know, they always like have this like allergic reaction at first in the book, right?

1:37:26Because they're baptizing fire. Like I was baptizing fire. And like I just tell them like what happens to the principal. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Whatever, you know, they're always like, I'm going to spend 3 % of my, I'm like, what happens to the principal?

1:38:07So whatever you have of the principal, right? Like whether it's a million, 500 ,000, whatever, take the hours of your life that it took to build up that principal. That's a waste. You have to spend down the principal. The principal has to go too. And they're always like, ah, you know what I mean? They freak out, right? Because they've been there. They have this religious belief about this 3%, 4%, whatever rule they are that keeps them safe and living that life. And I'm like, the goal is fulfillment, not to have a nest egg. The goal is not the money. the goal is fulfillment and the only way to use all up your resources is to spend all the money have great health and be live in a conscious and be conscious about your life in terms of being healthy what have you found to be the the best roi activities gym membership is it food no no um it's walking and hiking by far because it's free um you actually enjoy it with friends you can do it with a group like let's go hike people go in california running can you let's go hike all these trails around here.

1:39:06You experience nature. You're actually having an experience, like a fulfilling experience while also improving your health. And, you know, like all the doctors like sitting is death. You know, people like this gym or that gym, I'm just like free activity and, you know, running and walking, if walking three miles and running three miles, almost the same thing, right? It's the same amount of energy, right? Except for running is inefficient from going up and down. So it's like 10 % more or whatever, or how inefficiently you run 10 or 15. So walking, running, it's just a physics equation, right? And so you're creating a memory, having a fulfilling time and preparing yourself for future enjoyment by getting yourself in shape and your lung capacity, right?

1:39:46Then, you know, calisthenics and all these other things like that. And so I think that is a very, very, very high ROI is hiking. What's your skincare routine? I don't have, I mean, I just wash it and then I put some... Like very, very young. oh that's i mean yeah well i i think i've been told this i think one i have i have good genetics i think i'm just lucky uh two though i don't smoke i don't really drink that much i'm a vegetarian so i think these things matter right and then so like if you're out there smoking you're up late at night and you're drinking and it's and then you just hydrate your face and then you should be okay do you have like wear sunscreen because you have no wrinkles it's like i have some wrinkles here, here, you know, do this, whatever.

1:40:32But like, just hide your face. Just like get some vitamin E oil, put it on in the morning and you're fine. Like Botox, facials, or like nothing like that? You get the Botox. You get the Botox up here. But I still got it right there. But you get the oil, man. Just get the oil. Don't smoke. Do you smoke? No. Do you drink a lot? Rarely. And then just like, you know. You might have one drink a month. Eat right, exercise, you know. Eating, diet, there's you can't really like as you get older like unless you're an Olympic athlete you can't you can't outdo your your diet right it's like 80 85 percent of it like you just can't do it like if you're eating a bunch of chemicals it's gonna get you it's gonna pierce through your skin it's gonna your liver it's gonna you know it's gonna quit your metabolism like you're young yeah you can you can but eventually it catches up do you have any questions for us or any yeah Why did you start this podcast?

1:41:27Well, this was really the brainchild of Jack back in 2020. My theory is that he saw that Joe Rogan sold his podcast exclusivity to Spotify. And he came to me and he was like, dude, we got to start a podcast. And this was May of 2020. And I said, sure, let's give it a shot. Is that what happened, Jack? No, that is not what happened. All right. But it was funny because it was nearly exactly after he sold his podcast is when we first uploaded our video. And like we were, you know, Graham was a finance channel. And so the top comment was like, Graham Stephan sees Joe Rogan, sells podcasts for a hundred million, starts a podcast.

1:42:04But in this case, no, it's because I watched a lot of podcasts or I listened to a lot of podcasts. Throughout the day, I'd go on a walk and just binge that type of stuff. And I figured that Graham could connect with his audience better if he had a more candid conversation. Like, because the content he was putting out online Mine was all heavily scripted and planned, but I thought he could cultivate a stronger connection with his audience if it was more just kind of impromptu. And we always had kind of funny random banter. Right. And people were also aware of my existence, even though I wasn't publicly facing just because Graham would randomly bring me up.

1:42:39We're like, oh, well, maybe we could try this out. What's the number one activity or activities you want to have in your 20s? I want to travel a lot. That's the only thing is I went on my first ever like real vacation maybe a year and some change ago. And it like I felt like I had finally experienced a sort of happiness and fulfillment that I just didn't even know existed. And this was like my first, I would say, awakening because I never. Words can't describe how like how happy I was for like two weeks straight, just traveling with my best friend, like going all around. And you're preaching to the choir.

1:43:18I get it. And then since then, I'm just like, wow, I want to do that more. You know, and I think that every time I go on a little trip, like it's going to get, I'm not going to enjoy as much as that first time. But like every single time I get out and have a purely personal vacation, it's incredible. Well, you know the saying, travel is the only thing you can spend money on that makes you richer. That's awesome. Yeah. What about you? I would say Japan was definitely a really fun experience. I want to do that again. But I don't know. Part of me, because I was thinking through as you were saying it.

1:43:47Like I, some of my best days are when I just lock myself in the office and just crank out a video. And it's one of those times where it's like you get in a flow state and just you lose track of time and you're so in it. And then at the end of the day, you have like a finished product that I'm really proud of. And then it's fun to put it out there and to see how it does and get like the immediate feedback. So some of my like favorite days are just like being able to have the opportunity to do that. So creating also. Yeah. But then I also sometimes don't know if that's because I love the creation process and being in the zone or if I'm conditioned to feel good about being productive and working.

1:44:27Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know. Because I think a lot of people get habituated into, let's say you're selling plastics. And you're like, you get good at selling plastics. And then all of a sudden you're like, I love selling plastics. And it's like, did I just get inceptioned and habituated to be a rat in a wheel selling plastics and thinking I love selling plastics at the expense of the rest of the world? I don't know. I think people enjoy what they're good at. And that's kind of just like a natural human thing. If you're good at something, it usually ends up being not fun to you. But then what happens is that you believe that that is the thing.

1:45:00Yes. I don't know. I always love having something to do. And this is about a year ago. I painted the entire garage. And the garage is like 20 feet tall. It's like a big garage. And I spent all weekend. I'm probably talking maybe like 18 hours, maybe 20 hours painting this garage. I loved it. But I also don't know if I like just being busy and feeling like I'm doing stuff. You can do some great travel charity work. You would love that. You're like Doctors Without Borders or, you know, doing some charity work where you're like busy and doing something and fulfilling. I think you might like it. But my other thing is that I like having the ability to stop at any point and just return to whatever I was doing.

1:45:40So it's like, so like freedom, freedom and creativity. Yeah. So if I had the ability to like, yeah, go across the country, but I can snap my fingers and be back in a heartbeat, I would do it. Like, so I like having that freedom of just I wake up in the morning and I just say, I want to do this or I want to do this. And that's and that's some of the hard thing with even traveling in the podcast. Sometimes I'm like, yes, I really want to travel. And other days I'm like, I just don't feel like it. So it's hard to lock myself in six months from now because I don't know how I'm going to feel. Where do you think you got this fear from?

1:46:11What do you think is driving your fear? I think I just naturally always kind of been like this. I mean, because I'm thinking like I'm trying to go through my childhood and we certainly didn't have money. And I know money was definitely it was scarce, but I didn't even realize that until probably I was like 15 years old. And my wanting to save money has been around since I was like five. Like I do remember my grandpa having like rare coins and me thinking that's so cool that there's like a 1920s penny. So I'm going to save these. You're like saving Christmases and birthday money. So I've always been like that.

1:46:44So I don't know. Part of me thinks that like maybe I was a bit wired for the propensity of like saving money or delayed gratification. And that's just how my mind works. but i i can't think of like there's a trigger point of like oh this happened and i and i like shifted my thought because i've tried to think through this so when have you and you don't have to list them all but if you have something when you say delayed gratification i'm just like okay what are you delaying what's the gratification i would know what the prize is like immediately what what i really want right now the only thing i want is a really nice house with a big yard and a view of the Las Vegas Strip with a koi pond somewhere in front.

1:47:28He's got it down, very specific. He's got it down. I check Zillow every day because I'm thinking like, listen, if the perfect house comes up, like I'll jump on it. Like, but it's got to be perfect. But then I'm thinking, okay, that house is probably going to be about four to seven million bucks. Let's just say for like that sort of house with like greenery. It's really inspiring. I'm thinking, do I need that now? No. it's like it's better for me to like still play it smart to you know optimize what i'm doing with work to invest the money and like that house isn't gonna go anywhere over the next 10 years i mean it's always gonna be about it like you're wearing it yeah what's gonna be the most fulfilling right yeah so i'm thinking like that's a delayed gratification thing where it's like it would be irresponsible for me to jump on that now when i feel like i could still enjoy that just as much when I'm like 45.

1:48:18Travel is another one where it's like, I would love to fly first class. If money were just like nothing and I could snap my fingers, it's everything is free. Like, yeah, I would love to do that. But at the same time, like business or premium economy, that's what it is. The premium economy is like 80 % of the experience for like 10 % of the cost. And so I look at that and I'm thinking, that's a better deal. yeah so i do the premium economy just curious grant when when you have those days where you lock in and i know you enjoy these and i don't doubt that for a second but do you have like memory dividends from those days certain days yeah the so here's a good example of this when the japanese yen was absolutely collapsing it was like 11 p.m at night east coast and i was telling jack like, dude, I got to get out a video on this.

1:49:10I got to get it out. And Jack's like, it really doesn't make any difference either way. If, like, you post the video, great. If you don't post the video, like, it's not going to make a material change in your life. And I was like, you know what? That's true. But, man, I had a great time filming that video. And even the memory card, I filmed the whole video, and the memory card corrupted. And I had to refilm this thing and edit at, like, 1 o 'clock in the morning. Wow. I look back at that, and it was a fantastic video. I remember that time period. Because I was sending notes in our Tokyo travel group and we're like, we should go back to Japan now.

1:49:43It's on sale. We could have the same experience for like 20 % off, you know? But yeah, but certain times like that, I'm so glad I did that because I remember that. I had a great time. I spent like an hour setting up in an Airbnb, like a little studio set with just whatever I could find in the kitchen. That was a great time. I even did this last night and my memory card corrupted again. It's terrible. You might have to invest in a new system. The first time was a fluke. The second time I just was. Wrong setting on the camera. Did you guys go to Team Labs, Borderless, in Tokyo? Love Team Labs. Amazing, isn't it?

1:50:18Yeah. Did you do Team Labs? No. That's the interactive. I know exactly what it is. But which one did you do? Did you go to Borderless? No, I just went to the one. They have Planets and Borderless. Planets. You've got to go to Borderless. Okay. Borderless is the real deal. Okay, I'll do that. I mean, Planets is great. I mean, Borderless is next, next, next level. I will 100 % do that, yeah. Because it was closed for a while. They were redoing it. Yeah, I'm going to go later this year. Yeah, Team Love's Borderless is just absurd. It's absurd. Where's your favorite place to travel? Wow. It depends on what type of vacation you have.

1:50:50Like Japan is my favorite. I did the countryside. I did Kyoto, Fukuoka, Tokyo. Visited with the geishas in Kyoto. It was amazing. But that's a different type of trip. The reason why I love Japan so much is it's like a modern culture. first world culture that is completely different than any place else right i think you would have had that experience before they became a monoculture uh in the world like when you go to europe you go on some place you're gonna hear hip-hop right like it it's very they're losing the the the distinct you know the french being the french i mean there's french things right french culture uh germans being germans i think in the 40s and 50s it was very distinct and very unique and not Americanized so much.

1:51:37But Japan is wildly different. Wildly different, right? And modern. So it's kind of odd, right? The way they think, the whole existence of it. And it's really amazing to discover. But the Met is amazing. Like Italy, the Amalfi Coast, that whole area is an amazing playground. Amazing to go to Discovery, go to Pompeii, learn all kinds of different terrain, Greece, that whole area. Then into the other side, Croatia is amazing. i mean that whole european area then also i love uh denmark and amsterdam in the summer only in the summer okay you know europe's great there's a lot of a lot of travel around there is there anywhere you wouldn't go i think i wouldn't go places where uh the death rate or or was extremely high like i would even go to places where it's like this is gonna be a struggle like i'm not gonna like it at first like resistant but just to do it you know what i mean and feel it you know The last time I went on safari, there were so many bugs in my room.

1:52:37It was crazy. And I am not a bug guy. And then by the third day, I was like, okay, I'm used to these bugs. And it was in a nice place, but our roof, the thatched roof, got infested with termites, and then the bugs could get in. And it was just like the net and the bugs and cups and the shower, bugs everywhere. But safari is amazing. I highly recommend safari. Before you die, do safari. And your least favorite place to travel. Like if you were to name or call out a destination and say, this was not worth it, or I didn't like it and I would not go back again. I think anything that's designed for tourists, like I didn't like going on a cruise.

1:53:18I mean, I see the value play in it, et cetera, but it wasn't me. I could do that when I'm 80, you know what I mean? Or 75, right? Like, it's like basically taking like a little bit of America, sticking on a boat and doing this thing on a boat with a bunch of people. Sure. Doesn't have to be on a boat. Consuming. You know what I mean? And then you're like, you're on their schedule. So you have to get on and off the boat on their schedule. And you, at first you're like, this is great. Like, look at all this food. And then like 10 pounds later, when you get off the boat, you're like, what the did I just do to myself?

1:53:52You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's very canned. You know what I mean? Sure. Now, I could see myself later in life really enjoying the peace of a cruise and the foods over there. It's always there. There's always food out and snacks out and everything being your spot. And America is just cramped on this thing and you're just enjoying the view. But at this age, I hated it. I hated it. Now, maybe it was the type of cruise I was on, but I wouldn't do it. So anything like that. What do you think of what the FIRE community has become? I mean, I think FIRE is a great skill set, especially like there's no FIRE in Japan.

1:54:33Like this is them. They save, they give to their community. They don't, you know what I mean? Like they have a simple life. They understand the concept of enough, et cetera. And I think when Your Money or Your Life, when that came out, which launched the FIRE community, that's kind of like their Bible, right? You know, I think they went into the extreme. It's become this like, how can I refreeze popcorn to get the popcorn out? Right. And it's a lot of people, it's become savings porn. Right. Which, you know, your money or life was about getting in touch with your values and having a fulfilling life.

1:55:08That's what the book is about. Right. And it suggests ways at which you can do that. Like even taking less salary by not commuting as much and looking at your hourly wage. Right. Right. And I think the fire community has kind of lost that. Right. They've gone on to this like a version of not completely, but a version of is like, I'm going to do 15 years in Sing Sing. And then when I get out, I'm going to live the life, you know, and I won't have to work anymore, et cetera. And I'm like, listen, while you're in jail, life is passing you by. You know, you're not meant to be in any kind of jail, whether it's your own jail of your mind that you're creating by not enjoying life now or actually going into Sing Sing for some like prize or some Mr.

1:55:52Beast prize. I got 50 million dollars for somebody who do 15 years in jail, you know, that type of thing. And so that's my criticism of the fire movement. On the flip side, though, here in America, there is an epidemic of careless and wasteful spending and people living above their needs and not thinking consciously about earning and saving. And so that's a good part about the fire movement. But I think it teaches people to be like not live their life. So what if a person says, hey, I went 30 grand into debt so I could go and travel the world. But now my credit cards are all maxed out. I'm making 20 bucks an hour.

1:56:31It's going to take me a decade to pay this thing off. But I had an epic time. Might be worth it. I don't know. It's really about like I would go into debt if that was the experience that I could have. And it depends. Like the fire people are doing it in reverse. Right. They're like, I'm going to grind out for 20 years and then I'm going to have this great trip. And this guy's like, I went into debt and I'm going to have to grind this way. Right. Isn't this the same thing? Right. Like, I guess so. It's a version of autopilot. Right. Like, they didn't think it through. It's like maybe there was a better way to do this or maybe that was a proper way to do it.

1:57:04You know, right. They're just doing it in reverse. Right. They're just grinding it out, grinding it out, grinding it out. And then when I'm 45, I'm going to have this great, wonderful life. Right. Like this guy's like, no, I'll go into debt and I'll grind it out later. Right. Struggling flipping burgers or whatever. Right. But I think there's a there's a there's a there's an in-between conscious way to think about this is like where experiences belong, where, what are my resources, what are my future resources going to be like and how do I allocate my resources through this period? Right. That's the real way to do it.

1:57:35Right. Not like give up 10 years of your life so that you die with 10 years of your life to go to taxes and whoever randomly is going to get it. You know, so I think, you know, fire is great and America needs more fire than it needs the latter. But we need to be a little bit more conscious, intentional about these things. And I think fire is great that it helps people get in touch with their values. Right. When you start shedding the marketing and the right, I think they get more in touch with their values of what matters to them. They lose their ego, which is a great thing, et cetera. But they kind of get into this robotic thing.

1:58:13Right. This kind of like addiction. of see look how much i have three percent look i did this but yeah on the flip side as much as i mock that right these guys are finding out all the hacks right like i i often uh say that you know i can be on a super yacht in the amalfi coast or whatever and somebody somewhere is on a boat on a ferry having the same experience soaking it all in and enjoying it right they're getting the same fulfillment and they're with their buddies and they're having a great time right so i think at all income levels, you can have that adventurous and fulfilling life. Right.

1:58:48And you can talk great in and glaze it over if you want, as you make more money. Right. And so I think what the fire guys do is they figure out like, you bought a house for this. Well, I found this deal and you got a mortgage for that. And I found this deal. And like, you're buying shirts from here, like shirts online for this. Right. And so what they're doing is, is they're, they're, they're reducing amount of life you have to give up for this level of fulfillment and that's a sub category of like the wealth right and so it's funny that's me to a t yeah this is like trying to figure out what is the best value for every single thing i could spend i could use you i could use it a bit like you know this million dollars gonna go a lot further in fulfillment right like they they're in the i'm at the top level right like i'm like your wealth health and time and these guys are at us optimizing one of the columns right they're optimizing the wealth bucket so that for every dollar you spend, you get that much more fulfillment.

1:59:42So what I would tell these guys, like, let's not do without, but let's just find the most efficient way to do it. Like, let's still get all these things, right? Let's still go to the club, but let's find the cheaper, more fun club with the better specials, right? I mean, the bottles here are 6 ,000, the bottles here are 2 ,000. I posted a whole video on this like seven years ago. I went through all of my expenses and talked about ways to optimize them. And one of mine was like, I had a buddy who got a Thanksgiving bonus of like 200 bucks. This is when I was like 21 years old. Spent it all at the bar, the entire thing that night.

2:00:15I was like, it's ridiculous because you could have the same experience had he just gotten a bottle from the grocery store for 20 bucks. The whole thing, split it with his friends. Oh, this is something I learned from Dan. Yeah, just do that. And then you go to the bar and like, that's what I would do. I would never spend money at the bar. I would always just get a bottle from the grocery store. Sometimes you can have the bars. But drink it in the parking lot. Sometimes you can have the bar space. Drink it in the parking lot. But then go into the bar and then I just order waters the entire night.

2:00:42Well, this is one of the things you said, what I learned from Dan. And Dan would be like, look, why would you spend all this money in a club? We can spend like that much money, control the environment, have a party at our place, rent a place, have a party. You control the environment. You control the guest list. You are the man. So you have all the girls there, et cetera, right? You're the one throwing the party, et cetera, as opposed to like one dude out of many. Right. And like those are the things you would do is like, why would you spend thousands and thousands of dollars? Keep going to a club with take that throw one party and you are the man.

2:01:13The other thing that reminded me of going out to restaurants throughout my early 20s, I would never want to spend money at restaurants, but I still wanted the experience of going out with friends to restaurants. So what I would do is I would eat at home beforehand, but then go to the restaurant and order the least expensive thing on the entire menu, which is usually like a$10 salad. And then what I would do is I'd bring cash. Because what would happen is that everyone would be like, oh my God, how do we split the bill? We have to throw in a credit card. And I don't want to throw in a credit card when their bills are like a hundred bucks.

2:01:44Mine should be 10. So I'll bring like 20 bucks cash and I throw my 20. I'm like, all right, I'm set. I don't have to worry about splitting this check. But I get the same experience. Both the restaurant and his friends. But yeah, I get it. There was one time even, this is going to sound awful, there was one time I went to the restaurant and I asked them if I could bring in a Subway. And I brought in a Subway because there was a Subway, like a few little... They let you bring in a Subway. They let me bring in a Subway. Jesus. No, listen, I was in a group of like 12 people. So I just asked for a plate.

2:02:15That's very nice of you. They brought me a plate. It was super nice. I mean, I left a tip, but I brought in a Subway and my meal was$6. It was everyone else's like 40 bucks. It's the same experience. I don't know if it's the same experience because you're not eating the same food. I loved the communal. I loved Subway. I love the pasta. The chicken and bacon ranch is delicious. And the thing is, he also plays the waiting game, and he's like a scavenger, where if they don't finish the food, he'll also get a little taste at the end. Oh, my gosh. I have a thing for food waste. I hate wasting food.

2:02:41And so sometimes I'll see someone order, like, a big steak or something like this. They eat half. And then they send it back to be thrown away. And I'm like, that's$50 worth of food that they're throwing away in the trash that I would be happy to eat. For granted, it's always about increasing value. So like as long as he's better off, he's just better, better, better, better. Steak right here. You took a bite out of this carrot. Okay, like if I could avoid your teeth marching the carrot, So I see that as me getting paid for doing nothing. So let's just say in that situation, we're all out to eat at a dinner.

2:03:17We're all paying for our own meals. And you have half a steak that you're going to throw away. And your half of steak is worth$40. Me having your half a steak that would be thrown away is the equivalent to me making$40. That's how I see it. I mean, you're not wrong, but there is some entrepreneur out there who built this restaurant whose hopes and dreams that he doesn't want them to be inefficient. He wants them to eat the whole thing, but they didn't, that you're crushing because you're taking up the chair. That could be another patron who's a paying patron and you're robbing him of his services indirectly.

2:03:51Correctly. So, I mean, what you're saying is correct. You are getting paid. This is full optimizing your gaming, but you're over the entrepreneur. But the food's going to be thrown away. So it's their work is wasted. Isn't their work better off than you enjoy? Let's put it down at the bottom of this video. Please don't waste food. Order appropriately. You know, don't waste food. Yeah. Order appropriately. We can put that at the bottom and then you can go in and you can order your own food and support the business. Yeah. But to Jack's point, though, there are some people that I would consistently go out with and they would always have like half of their food thrown away.

2:04:24So I got in the habit of, there's no sense in me ordering. You sound like my mom. My mom was like, members of depression. Yeah, but I wouldn't, I purposely wouldn't order because I knew there's four people that I'm eating with. This is amazing. That's two equivalent, two full meals because they throw it away. This is going to be on a cutting room floor, isn't it? This is not going to make the episode. And they're all eating and just turning and see Graham licking his chops beside them. They're like, oh, you know what? Actually, you can have this. It started to be a running joke, but they would come over and throw away the food.

2:04:51And I'd say, oh, wait, actually, can we get all this to go? And I would eat for days. Stand outside and panhandle for scraps. Why even? Why pretend? Just stand outside and panhandle for scraps. People definitely be like, just stand out and be like, hey, whatever you don't eat, could you pack it up and go? And they will do that. I honestly, I wish there were a service that would just go around restaurants and be like, whatever you're about to throw away, just put in this side of the restaurant. They do have that for the homeless. Like, they do give that out. There are those services. They're generally for the homeless, not you.

2:05:25But, you know, you could start a new trend. I heard that they're not allowed to give that food to homeless because if they get sick from it, now it's the responsibility. Not the half-eaten ones, no, but the ones that are not sold. So Graham will take the stuff that the homeless people reject. Well, they won't allow. They won't allow. Legally take. Homeless people can't even ingest. Yeah, but if you stand outside the restaurant and be like hey whatever you don't eat could you put it in a go i'm sure everybody will listen if it were not for people like jack and my wife just getting really embarrassed by that and for like social norms like stay like i would be doing a lot of this stuff i feel you like the hive mind is like no this isn't right and you're like no this is well i i most i hold back out of fear of embarrassing the people around and i appreciate that sometimes like like even last night like which is fine but like we were checking into our hotel and like the guy was like oh do you live here in Texas and Graham's like no why and he's like oh because I said no why you know I'm not gonna lie and then he said oh because there's a locals discount and Graham's like oh well in that case we live here in Texas and then the guy said it in a very joking way the guy was like oh ha ha ha and Graham's like no seriously like you know do you guys have a discount or anything he's like yeah it's a little bit of a discount and Graham's like well what So like the guy's kind of trying to like swat him away like a fly.

2:06:43He was laughing. He was laughing. Like granted, I'm making it sound worse than it is. He was kind of laughing and playing along a little bit. But still, like if I get one rejection for like Graham, like probably asked finally on his like third or fourth time of like, what will we have to do, you know, to try to get a little with this with this restaurant thing? He's going to save more money than he ever made because he's got to be getting free food. He's like, well, I view that as 40 bucks. I'm like, he keeps doing things like this. And they ended up giving us, you know, some sort of a discount, at least.

2:07:10Yeah, they did. It is nice. But he was, yeah, oh, yeah, successful. But he was laughing a lot. It wasn't that. Jack said, no, we didn't. And I'm like, do we get a discount if we do? And the guy said, yeah. And I'm like, well, in that case, yeah, I guess we live in Texas. And he laughed at it. And then I jokingly said something like, you know, are you able to apply something if we're, like, visiting friends in Texas? He's like, you know what? Yeah, I could do that. Like, something like that. To me, it's just like, I don't know. Maybe it's an ego thing, too. But I'm like, I just don't like defying social media.

2:07:40Well, I think it's like hotels and mattresses, you can always negotiate on. Always. So he's found something, right? Like that one's and your ego's like, I don't want to look like an idiot. You should lose that part. But like the food one. Yeah. Pick and choose battles, maybe. I mean, we're going further and further along the spectrum. See, almost anywhere I go, if I'm alone, I ask for the employee discount. But I want to say like discount tire. oh my gosh, I saved like 300 bucks recently just because there's joking with the guy. And I'm like, you know. I need this guy in my life. Like he's gonna, he's gonna.

2:08:13But I wanna see. You are a subroutine that needs to be running and everybody needs that subroutine to a certain degree. But yeah, but I'm never a Karen about it. But it's always like a really joking, friendly, sort of like, hey man, can we hook this up? Or like, but usually they're all like, all right, yeah, okay. And then they type in like a few things. And then they're never, they're never like, Like, of course, man, I'd love to give you the same thing I'm giving everyone else, but for a little bit cheaper. Like, they're never, like, enthusiastic to do it. But it's enterprise, Jack, that you benefited from that.

2:08:43So this got me to a question, like a question for both of you that I think is, is like, it seems like you spend a lot of time and a lot of mental energy on the saving side. How much mental energy do you spend on the revenue side? Just as much. Because I went the opposite way. When I read Your Money or Your Life, it was like all these frugal exercises in saving money. I went that way. But what it really wanted me to do is like, oh, there's another way to solve for this problem. Having so much money that you don't give a f***. Such that it's not worth my time to even ask for the discount. Like the two minutes speaking for the discount.

2:09:17Wow, it lost so much money. Yes and no. I see my time as having different values throughout different times of the day. Like right now, my time is really, really, really valuable. But at 10 p.m. at night, my time is worthless for the most part. So if my time is worthless, I may as well utilize that time effectively. Same thing with on an airplane. My time is worth zero. So I try to do an activity where at least it's not worth zero. So if I'm out at AutoZone and getting my tires replaced, it's going to be I'm there regardless. So like spending that extra two minutes is going to be the same thing.

2:09:51So I may as well optimize it. I can see some of the variable value in a person's time. I don't do that as much, but to that extent. But I do realize like my free time is way, way, way more valuable than my work time because that's a reward. You don't want to f*** up the reward. So it's like time with my daughters. If something comes up, I'm just like everything's out, right? Unless I absolutely have to hire obligation or made a commitment. But if it's like, oh, these things that are going to go away and I'm going to get to spend less time with. If they like, oh, yes, I will spend time with you.

2:10:24Everything stops. So there is some variable in the value of time, but not that much. It might be different with kids. Would you say that's the case? Oh, yeah. It's always, I mean, it's just, it's really your priority stack, right? Like you'll have this priority stack, you know, whatever is going on, your kids, your family, your friends, your hobbies, your interests, your work, whatever, and you'll arrange this priority stack. And they have the way to interrupt your subroutines, right? Like this one, the highest one can interrupt this one. This one can interrupt this one. And it shouldn't go this way that much.

2:10:56You know, very, very, very hard to go this way. Very easy to ramp their up going that way. Right. And so that's kind of the way I look at it. The mental model I have in my head. But even with even with, you know, you can get to a wealth level or earnings level where none of it matters. Like you won't waste the time. like you know people write these things like if bill gates dropped 100 bucks it wouldn't be worth the time that he spent to pick up the 100 bucks type of thing i mean that's kind of like this big extreme example but you can get to where it's like it's not worth negotiating it's not worth even talking about it's not worth wasting the neurons even thinking about it that's kind of what i wanted right that was i don't i haven't gotten there but that's the the goal right like i don't worry about it i don't ask the price not worried about the price it's not going to affect my life i have a problem you know in the beginning when we were talking about like Like this guy has a need to spend money and the only way he can immediately search out is$10 ,000 bottle at the club.

2:11:53Right. Like I have a need to convert it into experiences and I can't really focus on the savings part. Right. That's where I wanted to be. And so I wonder, you say you spend a lot on the revenue side, but do you spend, what would you say is more revenue or savings? I would say, what would you say? Probably 50-50. Yeah, savings. I save more time on savings? Yeah, I would say a substantial amount more on savings. Like, I mean, all day to day. I'll come to Graham for like a certain deal or this or that. And he's like, yeah, whatever you think, whatever you think. And which is fine because I like to have control over stuff like that.

2:12:29But at the same point, like Graham will spend, I mean, how much time have you spent, you know, on bring a trailer, cars and bids, looking at the price of a certain vehicle. And you're like, oh, it's just not, you know, it's just not that great of a deal. Like, oh, it's just not that great of a deal. Like on Zillow, like all of these things scouring to just try to save a little bit more money on something you could potentially buy. I have fun doing that. Yeah, which is fun. My guilty pleasure, cars and bids, or bring a trailer. And I look at certain cars that I've wanted and I'm like, if it sells at that price, I can't say no to it.

2:12:59I love a deal. So it's like everything at a certain price. I'm like, I'm a buyer of that. But the difference is if you spent all of that time that you've spent on bring a trailer, you could probably buy the cars you're looking at. You know, on increasing revenue. Yeah, but then you missed the opportunity. And I'm going to pay you like kind of a backhanded compliment. I would think at like at your level of intelligence and hustle, et cetera, that you are incorrectly allocating your mental energy on savings because the revenue side that you can yield will blow away the savings. Right. So he's saying you're spending over 50 % time thinking about savings.

2:13:35And it was like, if you just focus your mental energy on like, how can I generate revenue, like, like significant capital, like more money than you actually need to live? I think you would be successful. And I think it would dwarf all your savings. What about the enjoyment of the hunt and feeling proud of a purchase? That is the thing for Graham. Like there's the cars that I bought. I'm like, that was a great price. Like that was a good. and I wouldn't have found this deal. Every time he says I4 is 4GT, I could see a little like sparkle in his eye. Oh, yeah. There's another. Let me put it to you this way.

2:14:09I think you have probably superior mental acuity than me. How would it feel to buy a hundred of those cars and not give care? How about the enjoyment? We don't need a hundred. I know, but I'm just saying like, or a hundred or other things. How would it know to feel like your kid is going to college and not have to worry about things? How would that feel? Do you think you'd get fulfillment from that? I don't, but the part of, So my counter to that would be, to me, it seems like a disrespect of money. No, you're disrespecting your mental neurons and the allocation of it. We're just talking about fulfillment.

2:14:41Yeah. And you're saying, I love getting a deal on a car and doing that. I was like, do you like traveling? Are there other things you like in life? I mean, I'm not saying that it's not fulfillment. Sure. I mean, it's nice, but you don't have to do that all the time, right? Like there's other things in life. And I'm just saying that if you allocated your mental neurons to the revenue side, given how bright you are, right, and the hustle you have and your work ethic, okay, that it would dwarf the fulfillment of getting the deals that you're getting. I'm just pointing that out. I might not be sure, right?

2:15:11Like, it'd be wrong. So I'm just saying, like, from the outside, a guy knows I could be dead wrong because you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. A lot of times I don't know what I'm f***ing talking about. I'm just saying that I think you're misallocating your resources. Like if I got to play the game of your life with your resources and your abilities, right? Like focus on saving deals all the time or spend time dreaming up ways and reviewing deals and making money. I'd be like this one. This is the more fulfilling life. 50-50 or 80-20. I like 80-20 this way. So I think just from an allocation, you have finite mental capacity, right?

2:15:47Finite hours, right? I would just say that I think you're over allocated the wrong way. Okay. I could be dead wrong, right? But I'm just saying, and you're like, well, I get fulfillment on it. I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment in 10 million bucks, right? And you're the type of guy that can make$10 million in a year. And so is he. Yeah, like I said, I don't know if it's the enjoyment of saving or I don't know if I'm programmed to think that I enjoy that because that's all I know. I would bet a lot of money it's the programming. I mean, I've known him a long time and I've said the same thing over and over again, that is programming.

2:16:19But he really does enjoy a deal. And I'm not just saying this to defend him. I'm just saying like - Well, he's well-programmed. That should be it too. He is very, very well-programmed. Very well-programmed. And the only thing that I feel like as a friend that I could recommend to him, and I want to hear your perspective on this, is that he should get uncomfortable a little bit more often. Because at this point in Graham's life, he is a very, very strong tie to just being comfortable. And it boils down to things as simple as like the temperature in a room. But I feel like what it comes down to is never trying something new and challenging yourself.

2:16:51It's like you've been rewarded financially. That's where the growth is, right? Yes. And that's why I think like maybe, just maybe you try to like spend some money and just see if you like it. Maybe you try, like when you got uncomfortable and you skipped a posting and you decreased the upload frequency on your main channel, your life has improved drastically. And it took you years to get there. But realistically, you could have done it two years before. You really, really could have. I beg to differ on it. A year before. Like you, it didn't need to be exactly at that time. And I think that just, and not going all in with trying something new and getting uncomfortable, but doing little like experiences and trying out small things every once in a while to get.

2:17:33Yeah. Or even focusing on the revenue side. Like you don't have to go 80, 20. Like I said, you can just spend 10 % more. I mean, there's just like a lot. There's a lot. Like you're just like, I really enjoy you get a deal. And like, I'm pretty sure your audience be like, yeah, there is a lot of fulfillment in$10 million. Like, what are you talking about? Like if I told you for a fact, OK, let's just take the risk out of that if Graham only focus 20 percent of your mental energy on savings and 80 80 percent on like making money, revenue ideas, deals, whatever. And you are guaranteed to have 10 million dollars extra.

2:18:09Would you take that deal? Yeah. Okay, so then you already agree that if the reward is$10 million, so somewhere between$0 and$10 million, it makes sense. You should calculate what that is and then see if it's achievable and then run it out. Yeah. You follow me? Like, that's just consciously thinking about. Like, we just poo-pooed it right away. No, I enjoy getting a deal. I'm like, well, let's think about this for a second, right? Somewhere between$0 and$10 million, you should be spending more of your time focusing on revenue. And then we should think about what's realistic. it. And I think that, you know, not immediately, like nobody's going to learn how to play piano overnight, but I think there's like a lot of yield in your time.

2:18:49Like everything you create, it comes from out of your mind. This whole podcast, all your success, right? You don't go dig ditches or you're not a construction worker or whatever. It all comes from here, right? And then you executing on that, right? So more of that is more revenue and you've gotten comfortable where you're at. And you're like, all my fulfillment comes from making deals. And I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment in having the capital and being able to spend that. And also obligations, future obligations have to be met. You said you want a big family. Well, it's a lot of obligations.

2:19:16So you should think about that. And then maybe you might go, well, 10 % more on revenue side, mental focus, or 20 % or 30 % or 80%, or maybe even 90 % more than Bill said. Right? Because that's kind of the conversation I had with myself, right? Like, am I going to save myself into the life I want? And the answer was no, not the life I want. Maybe some people can, but I couldn't. I wasn't going to save it. I'm like, I'm going to have to take big risk and make a lot of money. It's weird. Not to dig too much into my own personal matters, but I think I've already done that where I'm spending an amount that I'm comfortable with assuming a 50 % market drop, family obligations come up, you have a kid with a disability that needs some parents.

2:19:59All of these things happen at the same time. I'm talking like, oh, and then our income goes to zero. And so I'm like, I'm like, in that case, can I still live the exact same? And if the answer to that is yes, then I'm comfortable. And then I'm good. Right. Well, then you need no more. There's just no, then the answer would be, honestly, that no, copy, paste, repeat. Like, I'm not here to change your life. I'm not here to save your life, right? I'm just here to tell you that there are ways that you can look at things and see like, hey, yes,$10 million I have use for it. What you're saying is I don't have use for$10 million.

2:20:31I'm happy. I don't have any wants. Well, the thing is 10 could be five. And then at five at a 4 % withdrawal rate. Hey, there he goes. You know, after tax, now you're with, you know, 170. And then, you know. Yeah, I'm just saying like, however you convert it to fulfillment is your way. Like whether you spend it on or 4 % a year on getting deals at restaurants, that's up to you. Right. I'm just saying, like, where is the best allocation of your resources? Right. And right now we're talking about your health and roughly your mental health. Right. Where are you? Where are you sending these neurons?

2:21:09What problems should your neurons be working on? And it seems like your neurons are heavily focused on saving. And I'm like, you know, those are really good neurons. Right, Jack? These are good neurons. Well, they're right. They're right. They're right. They're right. He's got some good neurons, right? Like you guys got good neurons together with your friend together. These neurons. I'm like, should I focus those neurons on the revenue side? Me, evil Bill Perkins. I'm like, give me those neurons. Let's focus on the revenue side. No more standing outside trying to get leftovers. Listen, I could commit to a few months of trying that out.

2:21:42Like two months as an experiment. And what is that going to look like in an application? I would say instead of being so focused on the saving little aspects here and there, of just being more focused on the revenue generating side. Yeah, well, he needs an action plan. He's like, what is that? We're going to meet on Tuesday and go through ideas, stocks, investments, business building. Like, what are we going to do? Tell me, what are the things you're going to do? I mean, we don't have to lay that now, but you should commit to that. It would probably just be less focused on like the little tiny details, which maybe that frees up an extra 10 % or - Yeah, but the brain has to then take those neurons and apply them to like, what is your action plan?

2:22:21But we don't have to go into that right now. But like offline, you guys should be like, okay, every X day at whatever o 'clock, we're going to have a meeting and we're going to go over these things and get action items on like whatever. And we're going to execute on one of these plans. Well, I'd say one of the biggest ones is office space. Jack and I right now don't have an office. It's out of a bedroom, which I love. It's convenient, but it also doesn't lend itself to working together. How does that yield more money? Because we're focused on the roadside. Yeah. Whereas back in the day, like someone would come up with an idea and the amount of time between idea and execution was a lot longer because we had a text and, you know, I'd only see Graham once a week or this or that.

2:23:00But I think that if we had an office where we're all meeting in person. You're 100 % right. The speed by which things will get done is a lot faster. So the way I'm understanding it is that if you put out more content, it equals more revenue and your audience grows. More content, but also just like in terms of just like communication and coming up with, you know, guest ideas. Better content, yes. You know, yeah. So you have more content, better guest ideas, better quality show, better execution, more money. So here's what holds me back from a finance perspective. We have it so well in the house.

2:23:31It's easy. There's no commute. The cost of each episode to produce is like a few grand as it is. And I'm like, if we tack an office on top of that. The cost per episode. Now the cost per episode more than doubles because we don't film every episode in our office. We film maybe half of them in the office and then the other half, sorry, half of them in the home studio and then either half on the road like we are right now. And so if we only film two episodes a month in an office space that we now rent, the cost per episode skyrockets. And now our threshold is so high. And I'm like, do we need that?

2:24:10Well, it depends on the production value and what goes into it. The only answer is, is it net more revenue? And does it grow the platform? I would say the quality is going to be the same. I don't think quality is maybe a marginal improvement. Quality will be improved a little bit. I think the main thing is just that we're kind of talking every day. You know what I mean? So idea generation. Idea generation. Yeah. So what he would say on his argument using his neurons, he would say that why don't we just have a mandatory Zoom every day that we discuss this? And it's a 20-minute Zoom. This episode is brought to you by Facebook.

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2:26:08That could work out. The thing is, when you pay for something, you're going to value and use it more. And it's one of the like an expensive gym membership where it's like, oh, man, if I don't use it now, I'm wasting money. That's how I that's a motivator. That's what you need to get him to go to ideate, to create the more money. Then I guess that's the only way you can do it if you can't force yourself to meet at a meeting place or whatever. But like this whole exercise, and I'm not saying that you come to the exercise, is that this is how you should be spending your neurons. more so than the food example.

2:26:41That's just my two cents, right? Like, I think that's what's going to drive you to the level of comfort that you aspire to live and the level of pickleball travel that you want to live more so than saving. Panhandling for half-eason sushi. Panhandling, I panhandled before as an exercise. How was that? It was eye-opening. opening it was awakening and it was it was uh it helped me realize that no matter what you can make money were people nice to you no it was a little dangerous it was a dangerous job a lot of people were nice and there was some danger associated with it what happened oh there were some like gangbangers that were gonna me up you know get out of the street or do whatever you know what i mean like just because because you're low because they can right humans are humans and there were people were very nice and very sweet.

2:27:30How much did you make? Enough to be on pace to make like$60 ,000 to$70 ,000 a year tax-free. Whoa. Right. But I stopped the experiment. It was part of an emotional intelligence class, right? Like facing your fears about things. And I went out and did it and it was very liberating. And I was just like, yeah, you're just going to be all right. And that was meant to teach people that no matter what, you can make something. It was my exercise. No, it wasn't like everybody does this exercise. I see. Okay. It was like my exercise. like some people had to go to something way high whatever like but uh like it was it was a great exercise it was like this is a hard job uh but it's a lucrative job was there an effective way like a sign that i didn't even have a sign like i was that's why i was like oh i know i can really crush it if i had a sign so what's like the optimal way to panhandle i don't know i was only out there for like one day a couple hours you guys see grandma he's like he's like what freeways I think a sign would be better.

2:28:30I think looking destitute is fine, but not completely disheveled or smelly or scary. And being at a very busy intersection that has a light and that allows people to give you money. So I think it's always going to boil down to a numbers game. That reminded me. I remember in 2009, I believe it was, I would get off a freeway exit in Studio City on a regular basis, driving from Glendale to Beverly Hills. And there was a guy who was constantly on the side of the freeway, but he wore a suit, like a decent looking suit. He wore glasses, clean cut sort of guy, but he said he lost his job. Like on the side, he says like he lost his job looking for work.

2:29:23Anything helps. And the fact that he wore a suit and seemed clean cut, I'm like, this is the guy who gets my money. So like usually what I do is I pack Nutri-Grain bars actually on my drive, knowing that when he's there, I give him a Nutri-Grain bar or I give him a water or something like that. But did that just popped into my mind like that? I mean, I don't know. I mean, the answer is I don't know. I don't think like 90 minutes or two hours out there or whatever time I was out there. He hops in his Ferrari and goes straight to Vendor. You don't know. That one lady pretended to be disabled. Yeah.

2:29:51And then you see her just like wheeling off a few blocks. I mean, if you're going to be disingenuous, yeah, you do all kinds of things. She was making like a hundred grand a year. I mean, you can do well. I mean, but I think that would be an effective allocation of your mental resources. But I could see him like maybe. Yeah, I could see him like gamifying it and getting some fulfillment out of it. And justifying it. I like optimization. It's like, yeah, I go on a hike in the morning and then I panhiddle for half an hour. My time is worth zero anyway. Yeah, he's got this zero time calendar going.

2:30:23Anyway, I don't have that many, you know, I can ask a zillion questions, but I don't want to take up all our time. How about this? If you guys enjoy this episode, if you want a round two at some point, let us know in the comments section. I'll do my best to read as many of the comments as possible. I think you guys had enough. You're like, I can't take this. I can't take this sushi. but if you do we can do a round two yeah and also for anyone who made it to this point in the episode because I'm really curious about the retention graphs if you've made it to this point if you wouldn't mind giving us a comment let us know you made it to the end that would be awesome also what you liked and what you disliked that would also be very nice yeah if you want well you gotta edit it up and put bookmarks people gotta skip around oh yeah there's a lot of way yeah so and we're also gonna link to all of your info in the description along with your book I highly recommend it by the way and if you wanna be a part of the group the index that link is also down below.

2:31:11The index, huh? What goes on in the index? Oh dear, he's like, why did you ask? Why are you doing this? There's our third index slot. We could cut it if you want to, yeah. The index is an amazing group. I attended the, it was Disneyland and there was like a tour and then a very fancy dinner like Graham said, he dropped 40 ,000. The idea of the group is to get a bunch of young, wealthy people together to have experiences. I like it. And a lot of the money that is paid by the members of the group gets cycled into these really lavish. We do. We do really unique experiences that I would never do on my own, but I could justify it in a group like this.

2:31:49Because you get the discount. Because I get the discount. But then I could also I reinvest like a lot of the money that goes in is just I spend it back on those experiences. But we've cultivated a really cool group of like 13 people so far. And our vetting process is like we go through like multiple rounds of phone calls just to make sure everyone's the right culture fit. Right. But yeah, like the group that we have so far is incredible. And when I submitted the first application, we got like 3 ,000 people applying. And out of those 3 ,000 so far, we've picked like 13. That's great. So you guys are like investing experiences.

2:32:20So at the end of your life, when you retire, you retire on those memories. Yeah. And I like how involved everyone is. Like we've met some really cool people. And one guy like. How do you go to say 3 ,000 applicants? 3 ,000 applications. Some of them are easy. I don't want to give the secrets away for how we sort through, but we have a method for going through them. It's not just me, but I have a partner. Offline, I've got to find out what this is. Listen, you're invited. The index. Just tell me when you go someplace fun. Just tell me where you're going. Be like, all right. Deal. Disneyland would be out.

2:32:54Andy's a huge fan of you. Who is that? So if you want to say hi to Andy. Hi, Andy. Hi, Andy. Thank you guys for watching. Until next time. Until next time. Thank you.