The Housing Market ‘Great Reset’ - How To Buy A Home For $0! | Pace Morby

20:58It'll literally feed the information to you. There's nothing keeping them from doing it other than their own fingers. Like, I don't know. It blows my mind. Here's the thing. You've got most of the market going, I can't buy a house because they're too expensive. That's not true. The houses are not too expensive. You just can't qualify for a mortgage at a 6 % rate. That's actually the problem. If rates went down to 4 % or 3%, could they afford the house? Yes or no?

21:20Graham Stephan:So the answer is yes. Depends. But see, I put myself in that exact same position. I qualify for whatever interest rate the thing is. No money down. I just see such a big discrepancy between what I could rent a house for and the cost of owning. Oh. And when I see that, I think, why on earth would I buy something right now when I could rent it for half the cost? Okay. Here's the reason why. You guys should Google this. This commonly comes up with my friend Grant Cardone and other people go, you should rent a house. No, you shouldn't. You should own your house. And the reason being is because 99 % of your audience is not as smart as you or as me.

21:53They're not as seasoned in business quite yet. The average renter, do you guys know what their net worth is? Like you take the same -

21:59Graham Stephan:Yeah, of course, it's$8 ,400 and the average homeowner is like$100 ,000. But - The average homeowner's net worth is$400 ,000. I don't think that's because they bought or rent. I think the type of person to buy a house is going to be the type of person to have a good income, to save money, to have their finances down. Overall, I don't think it's because they bought a house. Let me make an argument and I say I agree with you. Yeah. So you want people to have the mindset of a renter, not the mindset of somebody who owns a house. No. Have the mindset of whatever makes the most money for you. And right now, I'm in such a firm belief that right now, renting is a superior option to buying unless you plan to keep the house for at least 10 years or under certain circumstances where there's an emotional component of owning a house.

22:44Graham Stephan:Yeah. You want to raise a family there. You need stability. That's like what Ben Moller said. on your podcast. He's like, this is my personal home. What do I care about cashless? A hundred percent. Same thing for me. If you have a wife, you have kids, it's like you should own the house. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. But I think if you're in your twenties or thirties and you look at it purely from a financial standpoint, for example, yes, I agree. Just a financial standpoint at today's prices, to me, I think it's a no brainer to rent if you would be disciplined enough to save the difference. And you think that because the interest rates are high enough that your payment would far supersede what your monthly payment would be if you got a loan.

23:20Graham Stephan:It's not just interest rate. It's interest rates and prices. Because if prices came down to a certain point, but interest rates were at 8%, you could make the argument that, okay, it's just, how does it compare to any other option out there? It's also just cost of ownership. And that includes a bunch of other things. Tax insurance, stuff like that. But the problem is that, yes, Graham's assumption is that people are as smart as him, the reality of the situation is that most aren't. And so if you tell someone to rent instead of buying so they can save the difference, like, I don't think anyone's going to do that.

23:53I have so many friends. Okay. So this is my argument. This is exactly my argument. I have so many friends my age. I have so many friends my age and I'm not going to say their names, Jack. I'm saying your name. It's not me. It's a different Jack. He's lived with his parents for a few years and he could have saved the amount of money that he was, he would have spent on rent if he didn't live with his parents and he could have a down payment on a house right now, but he hasn't. Okay. And that's a smart person. He's a smart guy. I think Graham and I are very different people. And I appreciate the type of people Graham represents.

24:24I operate better with pressure on my back. I just do. Meaning if I have a kid coming, I'm going to work harder. Right. What did Alex Srimozy say? He's said this a dozen times. He's like, if you have more kids, it's statistically shown that because of the pressure of having kids, you are going to earn more money. I think you have to alleviate the optionality that you give people of saying, well, save the money and invest the rest. They ain't going to do that. They're not going to.

24:47Graham Stephan:Look at how that turned out with college student loans. Do you think that put pressure on people to make more money when they're graduating$100 ,000 of student loan debt? No. I don't disagree with you on that. I think there could be a situation, and this is my hot take. Like in 20 years from now, we look back and say we forced down buying a home as the American dream, just like we did with a college education. And man, maybe that wasn't the right choice. I think you're right. But that would be a completely different list of reasons than what we're assuming right now. It could be because AI robots can create houses way faster and the cost of houses go down.

25:22We have no idea what the market's going to look like in 20 years. That's just a wild speculation that you can throw out way in the future. but if we're talking in terms of like where we're at right now then it makes more sense i think because it's a force so you're you're you agree with me is that it that is exactly i believe it's a forced savings account it forces people to actually do the thing they said they were going to do it's the argument of like credit card versus debit card you know what i mean it's like sure if you optimize with a credit card you're probably better off because you're saving one to two percent right but if you use a debit card you're going to spend less according to studies because of the psychology right and how that gets in the way it's not really a forced savings account anymore if you

25:57Graham Stephan:have a 7 % mortgage rate. You're paying 7 % for the mortgage. You're paying another 1 % for property tax. You're paying another 1 % on insurance and random things. So you're paying like 9 % now. That's not a savings account. There's appreciation of the property. Maybe there's appreciation. Look at Texas. Look at Florida. They lost 15, 20 % from peak. Yeah. In certain markets. Yeah. Like Austin's really compressed. I agree with that entirely. I just, I had trouble today thinking that the real estate market is always going to be going up in perpetuity or that prices are guaranteed to be higher 50 years from now than today.

26:32Graham Stephan:And I think overall, I would bet more likely than not, but I just don't see that as being a sure thing in certain cities. Let me try and agree with you. Okay. I will agree with you on certain things like single family, like the McMansions. I think a lot of those are going to go away. I think your age group does not give a crap about those. You guys care about more about like individual experiences and traveling and all of those types of things. You don't care about big, massive houses. I think a lot of those things are going to change and they're going to evolve. And I think a lot of single family houses are going to get chopped up into co-living that are not in HOAs.

27:05I think the world of single family will go away that we at least understand for sure. I agree. I do think that even if they printed houses, right? I know a lot of builders, they guys, they control the demand. Like they're land baking 15 years in the future. These guys are buying land and sitting on it for 15 years until prices go up. People are not, builders, Pulte Homes and all these big people, they are not going, okay, we can make a ton of money by making these cheap. That is never going to happen. They bought that land 15 years ago. They have to make the money they have to make. Even if technology comes along, they're going to wait until the market goes up, then print a bunch of houses.

27:46Look what the builders are doing right now. They're pulling back. They're taking some of their losses. They're giving people all these incentives and they're pulling back and they're stopping building. Why? They could build houses right now. Could they not make them cheaper? No. They couldn't necessarily make them cheaper. They just released their, look at Lenar. Look how much money Lenar made last year. Yeah, but they'd be taking losses, wouldn't it? But it's better for them not to take. They would make less money. They wouldn't make a loss. They would make less money. And when you say, hey, these people are going to start printing houses, like in Casa Grande, they printed an entire community all out of concrete just south of where I'm at.

28:16They will release them as slow as they possibly can to keep profits high. Lennar is incentivized to do that. And so nobody's going to figure out technology and go, all right, guys, we figured it out. We can make houses super affordable. Let's print the crap out of these things. It's not going to happen unless the government does it. And is the government good at doing that? Doesn't all it take, though, is one company to do it?

28:36Graham Stephan:Like we have a Robin Hood where all of a sudden they come out with zero dollar trades. Okay, cool. Every other broker. I'll give you a company that's doing it right now. I'm not associated with them, but the name of the company is Sola, S-O-L-A, out of Los Angeles. and they do modular homes. So what they do is they pour a concrete base. You saw what they did in California where they spent like$2 million per unit for homeless people, like the whole thing. Oh, that's awful. Okay, but that's when the government does it, right? Okay, cool. But when an individual enterprise does it, they pour the first floor, they then stack these modular homes on it and it's a beautiful model and it works really, really well.

29:08The problem is it takes three years for permits, four years for permits. So even if somebody comes along with a great, unbelievable solution, the government's going to prevent them from doing it. And when you have such a polarized world of like blues versus reds, blues versus reds, good luck solving any problem in today's political environment. Everything is used as warfare every single time. And so you just got to understand, I don't think they're ever going to solve affordable housing. They never have. They never will. Name one president that made affordable housing more reachable. Name one.

29:37It's never happened. Never once has it happened. It's only gone like this. It's going to continue to happen. Why? Because they're incentivized to not make it happen. Now, what's crazy, I don't know how they're affording it. I think what Dave Ramsey said the other day about how disgusting it is about how much they're printing money. I agree with him. A lot of your audience and, you know, like the Dave Ramsey world, right? I think people that are listening to Dave Ramsey are people that are a nine to five job that go, I want to save my shekels and I want to go and invest and buy a little bit of Bitcoin.

30:06I want to play it safe. That's not my audience. My audience is like, I want to be worth a hundred million bucks. I want to be worth$20 million. I'm going to work. I want to be a millionaire. I'm not excited about saving money on this or saving money. I want to learn how to make money much more like Ben Mala's audience. Ben Mala's audience is like, if I use debt correctly, I can be a multimillionaire. That's not Dave Ramsey's audience. I'm somewhere in between. I'm a little bit closer to Ben Mala, but also I don't use his strategies. What are his strategies? He wakes for, he waits for the bank to tell him when he should borrow money.

30:39I don't wait for any of that. I go directly to the seller and they are my bank. And I go, I want 2 % interest. I want 3 % interest. I want 4 % interest. And so for me, prices are really not that important. It's my ability to get into the deal and my ability to cashflow it.

30:56Graham Stephan:Now, wouldn't that though, over the first few years, really balance itself out? If you give up, if you pay a higher price, let's say, but you get a lower interest rate, isn't that About the same thing as coming in with cash and say, hey, I want a 20 % discount today. But I got the cash to do it. Here's an interesting thing. I will never use my own cash. Why? Where do I put my cash? I put my cash where I can make more money. Going back to your rent versus own situation. I lend money as one of my businesses. Okay. So people come to me. I have a guy that has a Walmart contract, a really weird deal.

31:26Guy comes to me and goes, hey, I've got the ability to rent the front of Walmart. You know, those like eyeglass center places in Walmart. he has a first right of refusal for like 2 ,500 bucks and he's arbitraging to eyeglass centers for 8 ,500 bucks for rent he has a like first right of refusal on 2 ,700 stores and i'm like how do i get involved he goes i need two hundred thousand dollars of seed capital i go okay i'll do that loan now your mind very different than my mind you and i could never be business partners ever okay but we could be friends so i give him a two hundred thousand dollar loan what's my return at the end of the year, 200 grand.

32:00I give him 200. I get 400 back at the end of the year,$200 ,000 return. I double my money. That's my, that's what drives me. I don't want to go put 11 per like, Hey, give me a 10 % return, which I think some people in stocks are like 10 % returns. Great. I would not waste my freaking time for a 10 % return. That's ridiculous. Now other people go, well, how are you collateralized? So I go to that guy, his name's Greg that I just loaned the 200 grand. He owns two pieces of land free and clear. He owns an Airbnb and I go collateralize my money at 450. So I give you a$200 ,000 loan. I want to collateralize against those two pieces of land and your Airbnb at 450 ,000.

32:37So I'm double collateralized plus a$50 ,000 buffer for legal fees. So why would he do that instead of just taking like a HELOC? Perfect. And like you're putting that money. Okay. So you, uh, you guys come from the traditional world where everybody you know can go get a HELOC. Guess who can't get HELOCs, Jack? Most people. I can't go. You can go down because you have traditional, you're financeable. Look at - Hardly. I couldn't get a loan. The only reason I got it is because it's with Schwab and I've been partners with them for a long time.

33:05Graham Stephan:Okay. So this is - Because Graham gave me a good contact. But you're your Chase contact. You're asking a question of like, well, why doesn't somebody go get a HELOC? In the same breath, you are saying it was almost impossible for me to get a loan. But still, that just seems like a hefty price to pay to. Okay. But if you're out guys, you're thinking about like, how do I save money rather than how do I make money? That's the difference between the Dave Ramsey audience and me. Save, save, save, save, save, save, save. I want to make, I want to learn skills that I can go and make more money. Another one.

33:34Here's a good one. Check this out. This makes, this will make a lot more sense than the Walmart contract. So somebody buys a piece of land. Okay. They've got an option on the piece of land. You know what an option is, Jack? So I don't have to buy it. I have an option to buy it. They go to Starbucks and they say, Starbucks, we want to build this building on this land. We need you to give us a 15 year lease. Okay. Now, when they execute this option, they have a really short timeframe in order to execute the option. They need$2 million to do this and get their construction loan. A guy like me, I can wire$2 million to this situation right now.

34:08I don't have to go through all the arduous journey and I can make a deal like this happen overnight. I'm doing a deal like this right now. I'll loan two million dollars on the deal and i'll get 700 grand back in 90 days Why didn't he just go get a loan? Because no bank one is going to give you a loan on dirt that hasn't been developed Especially give you a loan for two million dollars to make sure that this whole entire thing is secure It's not in their loan box. They're not doing that stuff. They like the people with jobs They like the people with w-2 income. So where what do the people that are like me business owners?

34:39How do we go get money? How do we get access to cash? So do you think that banks are going to start suffering if they're getting undercut, if a bunch of people start using strategies like that? And why not? This is less than 3 % of all the transactions in the country.

34:51Graham Stephan:And what is your collateral? Because if a bank won't do it with the dirt, yeah. Personal guarantee against the developer. He has his own business. He has money of his own, but he just doesn't have liquid cash. Has there been time where you have net worth and money, but you don't have access to the liquid? Right now. Right now. So let's say, okay, so Jack, let's do this. on my lending business, for example, which you probably don't care about, but this just kind of points out the traditional versus non-traditional mindset. If you find a great deal right now, right? You have a non-traditional kind of funky deal right now, right?

35:21And you're not even full time looking into real estate. What if you were? You think you'd find more of those opportunities? Probably. A guy like me solves your problems. So you go, if I ever need money to close escrow in three days or four days, as a real estate agent, did you ever see weird situations where like the lender didn't close and you got people got in trouble and deals blew up? No, usually the worst case is we get a weak extension. Okay. That's not like usually that you must've had great lenders. Most of the agents. And I want to see this in the comments, guys, by the way, agents will go, yeah, my lenders will kick back 30 days or 45 days.

35:53Guess what I do? I come in, I close on the deal. I'm basically a hard money lender in that situation. And I bridge that gap for those people. So that's non-traditional thinking.

36:02Graham Stephan:See, I offer Jack 7%. He said it was too much. Yeah, I got 5.7%. So it's, you know, pretty good. I said he could borrow at 7%, no money down. Yeah, that's great. That's a fantastic deal. It's a phenomenal deal. I didn't know you had no money down. What do you mean? Guess. Dude, I offered that to you. Sounds like a scam. And a few people - Do you think 7 % no money down or 30 % down 5.725 %? Okay, so let's think about this. 30 % down is the dumbest thing ever. Why? Because I can make way more money. So let's think about just a traditional flip. Okay. If I go and buy a fix and flip, how are people buying fix and flips and buying them with no money?

36:41They go get a hard money loan, right? Yeah. And what's a hard money loan typically? 12, 10 to 12%. Maybe Graham's friends are really cheap. They're 10%. Most hard money lenders are going to be like 12 % plus two points. Okay. I know this might go over some people's heads. If I can buy a flip with no money down, no money out of my pocket, and I can go flip that house and I can make$50 ,000 on a flip. I've got a house right now. If I just did this deal, made 55 ,000 bucks. If my lenders give me 12%. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows.

37:17Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Why would I use my own money? A small man thinking is this, oh, I'm going to save 12%. So I'll use my money to save the 12%. That's how most people think. But as a business owner, I go, where else can I use my money instead of this flip that will make me more than the 12 %?

37:57So I'll go do the Starbucks deal or I'll go do the Walmart deal or I'll go do other loans that make me far more money than me using my own money on real estate transactions. 30 % Jack, that's lunacy. Where else could you have used the money? The difference is this. They would have just gone into stock market. This is what I'm saying.

38:11Graham Stephan:Jack would just lose it in the stock market. I agree. You could just lose it in the stock market. The difference is this. People that are listening to Dave Ramsey, amazing human beings, but most of them are thinking, how do I save money? People listen to me. They go, I want to make money with my money. they would look at that 30 % and go, I'm not going to put 30 % on a loan when I could get zero down loan from him. He's going to make 7%. You'd be happy. Where else could Jack make that money? Well, if Jack has the mindset of I'm busy building my podcast and building this business, I don't have time to go find a place to put that 30%.

38:42So I'll put that 30 % in a more passive investment. Makes sense for you. For me, there ain't no way in hell I'm putting 30 % down on something because I know where else to put it that will make me way more money. That's the difference. It's not that you're right or I'm wrong or vice versa. It's that what is right for you specifically. And for you, it's like, I'm busy. You're building a business. You guys are doing all this stuff. You guys are getting Robert Kiyosaki on the show. Who knows what's going to happen with that, right? You guys might be flying out today. You might be flying out tomorrow.

39:12I don't know. So you're busy doing stuff. So it makes sense for certain demographics to go, yeah, I don't want to deal with all the stuff that Pace does. I get that. I'm not for everybody. I'm for the people that are like, no, I want to go learn how to make more money.

39:23Graham Stephan:Although before we go into that, when it comes to business, they say that you could get better, cheaper, or faster. But you could only pick two. But what if you could have all three? That's exactly what Cohere, Thomson Reuters, and Specialized Bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs, where you can run any workload in a high-availability, consistently high-performing environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster?

39:51Well, OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second. How is it cheaper, you might ask? Well, OCI costs up to 50 % less for compute, 70 % less for storage, and 80 % less for networking. And better?

40:02Graham Stephan:Well, in test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all of your biggest workloads. So right now, with zero commitment, try OCI for free. Just head to oracle.com slash iced with the link down below in the description. Again, that is oracle.com slash iced, link down below. Thank you so much. And we appreciate Oracle for sponsoring this podcast. So if you're trying to grow like 100 % ROI in a year, 100 % ROI. Not trying, but I do get those deals, yes. So what's the most you've ever got burned on a deal? Okay, I've never been burned on a lending deal because I get more collateral than when I loan.

40:42So I have a guy right now that owes me$65 ,000. we're selling his stocks and I'm getting not just my 65 grand, but also the legal fees involved, plus the return that I was promised. I will make all of the money I was promised, even though he defaulted on the loan. I will only loan to people who have the collateral to do so. So here's what I'm really confused about.

41:01Graham Stephan:Why would he default on the loan when he's going to be responsible for legal costs and he has the stocks to sell? It's not like in a liquid deal, he could just forego all the legal fees, save that money, sell the stocks. You guys got to come hang out with me for a day. You'll see all these fun things. So he's got a permit delay on his project. And so it's been kicked back over and over and over. It's a city municipality thing. So I'm basically going to him and I'm saying, hey, man, it's been like six months. You were supposed to be at three months. So either A, I give you an extension. We write a new loan and we reset the buttons or you go liquidate your stocks and you get me paid out right now.

41:36And he goes, I don't know when this lender is going to get this thing done and I have no faith in them. Let me just sell my stocks. So in that situation, he's not technically defaulting. his new lender that's supposed to come in and wipe me out is just taking way longer because it's a development, right? They underwrite differently. But what if he just sells his stocks and then buys a Lambo? Okay. So like, do you have any control? Is there like an escrow account? You guys ever heard of a UCC one? Okay. So UCC one is a business lien. So I can lean your property. A UCC one allows me to lean an LLC that owns stock or a trust that owns stock.

42:10So let's say you're going to go do business with somebody. Graham, if you and I decided to go start, let's say a coffee plantation, right? Like somewhere in South America, we want to go build this cool thing. You would want to do a UCC search on me to see if I have any liens on any of my LLCs. A lot of people don't even know that exists. So I can lock up his LLC that owns those things. So he doesn't have the technical ability to go and sell anything without my permission.

42:38Graham Stephan:hmm ucc1 look at it how does the average person go about starting and hard money lending let's just say someone has 100 grand yeah they say that sounds good to me i'm willing to risk it how much money you got graham to give me right now like on the lending situation how much you need you got 100 grand yeah okay how much you want on your your 100 grand 20 would be awesome okay so here's what i would do with you and this is the same thing i did with jack okay jack i promised him. Let me bring you a deal. He turned it down. It's cash flowing like crazy. I'll email it over to you. Email it to me. I'll show you what I got sent.

43:10It's only cash like, cause Jack didn't buy it though. Okay, guys, if you are watching this, I don't even know where to send people. DM me on Instagram. I'll give you the P &L that he turned down. He'd have 50 % ownership and you'd be cash flowing right now. You went and visited the property with me, Jack, you crazy man. I know, but I'll show you what I got. Okay. Show me what you got. Yeah. Anyway, so here's what I would do. I would JV with you. Okay. Here's how, what I mean by that joint venture. I know where the lending opportunities are. You starting out, you have a hundred grand, right? Sure.

43:41Okay. So you bring a hundred grand to me, Graham, I will, I'll make a YouTube video out of it, but if we ended doing it, you probably won't do it, but you give me a hundred grand, I will JV with you on lending opportunities and I'll give you a personal guarantee against that asset I just showed you. So you have no downside risk. You give me a hundred grand. Here's what I would do. I'd go find somebody that's flipping, which they're everywhere. People are flipping 500 ,000 people are currently actively developing or flipping a property right now in the United States. Insane amount of people are developing.

44:10You guys drive around Vegas. You see it all over. Those people all need capital. They need quick capital that doesn't go through a bank that doesn't require all sorts of arduous journey. If you brought that money to me, I would just take your a hundred thousand dollars and I'd go lend it out at 30 % or 40%. How do I do that? somebody some legal person is going to be in the notes going well that's usury you can't charge people 30 and 40 yeah because i'm not i'm partnering with them on the deal i go i will bring a hundred thousand dollars to the transaction but i want 30 of the transaction i want 30 of the net profit so i'm not lending technically i'm actually joint venturing on their project so like that starbucks i'm a partner on that deal because i brought money to the so you have to run the numbers then to make sure when they sell that there's enough to pay you whatever that value the The smarter thing to do, like, okay, so I would never give him your money at 7%.

44:57And the reason being is because you could go, there's companies that do this. Like, um, there's a company called Lone Ranger. Don't make any money to tell you this, but if you go to LoneRanger.com, they're a hard money lender. They're worth like$5 billion. You give them your hundred grand. They're going to give you 10 % every single year. Interest only 10%. Why would you give him 7 %? Cause you didn't know Lone Ranger existed. Oh, cause I know Jack. Do you have a savings account? Do I have a savings? No, I don't have a savings account. So is your savings in Lone Ranger? Is my savings in Lone Ranger?

45:29Jack, ask Robert Kiyosaki on Monday when you interview him if he has a savings account. Ask Ben Mala if he has a savings account. Ben definitely has a savings account. There's no way, Ben. You have to, what did Kevin O 'Leary say? He's got$5 million at all times. Okay, but here's the difference. So let me pull up like one of my accounts, okay? None of this is my savings account. I run businesses that have cash in them and operate and there's excess cash. That's a different conversation. Do I have a personal savings account? Absolutely not. Ask Grant Cardone or Ben Mala. I mean, I'm sure Dave Ramsey is going to tell people, yeah, I have a savings account.

46:07He don't have a savings account. He's a freaking$200 million a year business. That's his savings account. He doesn't have a savings account. Okay, so check it out. So let's look at like a couple. So like this account has a couple hundred thousand dollars in it. Let's go to, here's my lending business. Has like 900 grand sitting in it. Saguaro, that's one of my accounts that we do lending out of as well. Let's go to like my RV park, that one of the RV parks right here. One of my RV parks constantly has$150 ,000 sitting in it. Almost every month is generating$150 ,000. What do I need a savings account for?

46:40What is an emergency, Jack, that I would need a savings account for? Let's ask that question. Well, just places to park your cash. if, if, okay. So where do I invest my cash? I put in my own lending business. I just keep putting my money into my own lending business. So what's your average ROI on your lending business per year over the past few years? Um, okay. So this, um, we just can't lend everything. No, I can't lend everything. I also buy businesses as well. So, um, and I'll invest as an LP and other people's stuff. So like I have students that will do like storage facilities. I don't do storage units, but I'll invest in theirs.

47:13I have students that do boutique hotels. I'll invest in there. So I'll be an LP in other people's deals and I'll plug cash into those transactions. Um, and those, you know, there's like 15 to 20%. They're safe. They're tied to an asset. So I'll play that game of like 15 to 20%. There's no way you're getting me to make 7 % on money. No way. Graham go to Lone Ranger, get 10%. Don't give that 7%. What's the risk?

47:35Graham Stephan:Isn't there always a risk? The higher the return you get? Um, yeah, the risk is if Lone Ranger goes defunct. Yeah, for sure. I think that there's definitely inherent risk in everything that you do for sure. So reminds me similar of like lending club when that was a thing. Yeah. And they had these initial high rates of return. And then 2019, 10, 20, 10 % is not. It was, it was eight to 12, depending on the credit rating. But what ended up happening is that you had a lot of people halfway through the loan, just start falling behind. And that brought down your overall return. And then you had people saying, well, I made 4 % on this, or I made 3 % over two years and it wasn't worth it.

48:15Yeah, makes sense. Lone Ranger, that's not the agreement you have with Lone Ranger. Yeah. The agreement is a flat 10%. You're not deciding where that money is, they are. And then they back it with their balance sheet. So something like a Lone Ranger, like even a creative funding, there's a creative funding company that will do the same exact thing. I think they'll pay like 12%. And what they're doing is they're arbitraging your money at 14, 16, and 18%. And what they're doing it for is they're giving people like 70 % loan to value, requiring them to put 30 % up front on a development. So they're somewhat protected, but there's definitely a risk.

48:46You got to be careful. Or you could just put your money in your savings account and it makes a lot of money there.

48:49Graham Stephan:I'm just worried that I see so many syndications that raise money from like 2020, 2021, 22. They're getting crushed. They're getting their asses handed. Crushed. But why? Let's talk about why that is. Syndicators did what I don't, so I have a fund, which means I've raised money. What's the difference between a fund and a syndication? Do you guys know? What, syndication is raising other people's money? They're both in kind of the same exact thing, but when you hear the word fund versus syndication, syndication means I found 123 Main Street. We are raising money for 123 Main Street. That's a syndicate.

49:21Okay. A fund is we like properties similar to 123 Main Street. We want to go buy a ton of them, so let's go raise money for a blind fund is basically what it is. I have a fund, but what are the assets I buy? The only assets I buy with other people's money are properties that do not have variable rate interest. What did every dumb ass syndicator go and do? They went and bought short-term deals. This is how stupid they were. They're so greedy. Look at the market. It's going up like crazy. Let's go raise a bunch of other people's money, get 3 % temporary debt, and it's floating, which means when the Fed goes up, their payment goes up.

50:00Yes. And now all of a sudden they're not cash flowing. Now all of a sudden they're in foreclosure. Guess what? That's called traditional real estate where people use their credit. Dumb asses. We go to sellers and I say, hey, seller, like the 161 unit, seller gives me a 20-year note at 4 % interest. I'm locked in for 20 years. It doesn't matter what Jerome Powell or anybody at the Fed is doing. I have 4 % interest with the seller. So if I go raise money, the Fed goes up to 7 or 8 or whatever the heck it does. Does it matter to me or do I continue to cash flow? That's the difference in what I do versus people, even Ben Mala.

50:33It does affect you to some degree, though, of cap rates. If I'm exiting the deal, right? If I'm exiting the deal, cap rate does make a difference, right? If I am holding the deal and it's shelling out$77 ,000 a month to me, do I care what the cap rates are? No, I don't. Because the cap rates only make sense when I'm selling the deal to somebody who's going to go get a traditional loan. That's the only time cap rate makes sense for me, the owner of that property. Otherwise, I don't care. I'm isolated from all of that crap. So people overstress about cap rates. They overstress. I buy a quality asset with no money down.

51:08I hold the asset. I make money. When the market shifts and the cap rates are now favorable, we will then make a decision. But I have 20 years. How much time does a syndication have? Three to five. Bro, that's like putting a time bomb in your pocket. Dumbest thing I've ever seen people do. And I've seen, I had somebody come to me the other day to go, so I invested in somebody's deal in a syndication and me and$40 million of other people's money is all being washed. I'm like, yeah, welcome to a trillion dollar loss this year. Like all these syndicators are getting their butts kicked. Yeah. It's a problem.

51:40I agree with you. But that's traditional real estate. What did they do? They gambled on interest rates staying low so they could exit to a larger company like a BlackRock or whoever, right? And they gambled wrong. And I think close to a trillion dollars in debt is coming due.

51:56Graham Stephan:It's a mess. See, that's why I think as an investor, it does make sense to make money in real estate, buying those deals where the loans are coming due and they have to exit. There aren't that many buyers. Yeah, but even then, I don't touch those deals either. This is very different than me. People are like, Pace, are you going after those commercial deals? I have banks calling me going, hey, we have somebody's loan coming due. Will you come in and buy it? Like Ken McElroy, you guys will meet him through Robert Kiyosaki. banks are calling him and going hey our borrower bought this at 80 million will you buy it for 30 that's what's happening right now it's significant you're not seeing it hit the books you're not seeing it cracksy or loop net it's not even going out there the big players like the grant cardones i know some people that watch this right now are gonna be like grant's not the biggest player i get it but we know who grant is so i gotta reference grant grant is smart he's got all these relationships with brokers and banks that are bringing him deals off the books that's not for the everyday investor.

52:48The everyday investor has no access to that deal flow, which is why somebody would invest with Grant Cardone, a hundred grand, for example, because they don't have access to that broker or that bank. And that bank would never trust that individual investor to buy that deal in the first place. So in the traditional world, I don't even think that's even an opportunity for the everyday investor. It's not even remotely close to an opportunity.

53:08Graham Stephan:So what should the everyday investor do today if they want to deploy their money? They want the highest chance of success. Include stock market, Bitcoin. If anything out there, if someone has money. I'm not a stock guy. I feel like you're betting on some other man's decisions. Do you own any stocks? Zero. Zero money in stocks? Why would I? What about gold? I have no gold. Bitcoin? I have 15 Bitcoin. Why not more Bitcoin? I don't know. I feel like that's a lot of, I feel like that's pretty decent. It's more than most people. What'd they say? Like if you own one Bitcoin, you're like better than 99 % of people.

53:41So I've got 15 Bitcoin, but where did I buy my Bitcoin? That's the better question. Did I go and put money into Bitcoin like a knucklehead? Did you creatively finance the Bitcoin? No, I have not figured that out.

53:53Graham Stephan:I'll pay you twice the value for the Bitcoin, financed at 0%. So dollar cost averaging, which is something Graham talks about all the time. Where does that money come from? That money comes from people's paychecks, right? And so what they're doing is they're at their nine to five job and they're like, okay, I got this little sliver, a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, whatever it is. And I'm going to dollar cost average into this Bitcoin. okay so you're going to take after tax dollars that you earned and put it into a gamble bitcoin is a gamble at the end of the day real estate's a gamble it's all a gamble okay what i'd rather do is i'd rather go get a property co-living rv park whatever it may be i'd rather go get a property with no money let the cash flow then buy the bitcoin and that is why i only own 15 bitcoin because i take a percentage of my free cash flow and i buy Bitcoin with it.

54:36I do not take active income and buy Bitcoin with it. That's crazy. So for me, for me, that's fair. Yeah. And so now if we're talking in terms of the average person, how can they take advantage of the current market conditions to make a lot of money? A couple of things. Um, if you don't own a house, I would go to creativelisting.com and go buy a sub two house and stop renting. Cause I don't agree. But isn't that going to be too competitive? Like, aren't there probably going to be tons of listings on there that everyone's bidding up? And How are you going to actually get a good deal? Interesting.

55:06Jack, that is such a great question. These houses are locked in at price. Hey, pay me this. The house is yours. That's it. We're not, this is not like a regular retail listing thing. These are wholesalers that found a sub two deal. They just go pay me a five or a$10 ,000 fee. The house is yours. There's no bidding up type of thing. People are naming a price and they're buying the deal. That's it. But good question. So if you don't own your house, I think you should own a house. You and I disagree on this. I think you should own a house because I think if you are relying on somebody going, hey, go rent the house.

55:36By the way, Jack, I'll get to your question. Hey, go buy the house. Don't buy the house. Rent and then take that difference and go and invest it. People won't do it. They're just not going to do it. If they were, they would have already been investing already. Maybe they are. Maybe, doubtful, right? Look at the statistics of how little people are actually investing. First and foremost, what is it? 60 % of Americans can't even like survive paycheck to paycheck. Like that's the significant problem. The problem is the lack of income that I would even have to invest in. They can't even afford to rent first and foremost.

56:06But let's say that I'm not that 60%. Let's say I'm Jack, right? The average guy, he has some income. He has a decent job. He knows what he's doing. He's a little bit savvy, especially watches iced coffee hour. I think lending is a really great place. You've got excess cash. I would go and lend money on other people's deals. The problem is you now have to learn a skill, right? The skill is I have to learn how to underwrite or I have to learn how to trust somebody, not a Graham Stephan strong point. You're definitely not going to be trusting people. So I think lending is really good. It's powerful because I don't have to go find the deal, develop the deal, deal with contractors, but I can make money on that project if that makes sense.

56:41I like that. The other thing I would do is why not jump into, well, this is a good one. Do you guys know what fractional.com is? Okay. Fractional.com is really cool. Fractional is where I can invest as little as$5 ,000 in somebody else's real estate transaction that they found, they negotiated, they're developing, they're doing whatever. I would go put$5 ,000 in somebody else's project. What's cool about fractional is that a non-accredited investor can go invest as little as 5 ,000 bucks in it, but you are a member of a club, which means I get to make decisions. I see how the project is unfolding and I get a full education while I'm investing in the deal.

57:19I, as an LP limited partner, I don't like investing as an LP if I'm not getting an education. So for me, I like fractional because I can put as little as 5 ,000 bucks in. I can get a 10, 15, 20 % return on my money. Meanwhile, I'm getting educated on the deal. Seems like with this whole club

57:36Graham Stephan:structure, wouldn't this be a great way to get around rent control? Like technically, if a property is rent controlled, you say, hey, you're the only member of this club. Yeah. So we're talking about, and now we're going to pad split. So yeah, I agree with you. Keep going. Pad split is the club that gets around residential rentals. So theoretically, if I have a unit that's rent controlled, I set up a club and then I say, the club is$1 ,500 a month. And there's no cap to how much I could increase the membership of that club after a year. Yeah. The perk of that club, you get to live in this house.

58:10Great. Love it.

58:11Graham Stephan:I'd do that all day long. And there's no rent control if you were to raise the club membership. I wonder then if you also don't have a lease agreement if you could kick them out, you know, without getting a squatter situation. You get 30 days notice and the club membership expires. So what I would do, for those of you guys that are listening. It's always, see, the lawyers would argue intent. They would say, You had the intention of getting around a lease agreement and therefore that is null and void. So Padsplit's already done this. They've been in court. They've won multiple times. Guys, I would look this up, padsplit.com.

58:45I don't get paid to promote it at all, but everybody in my community is using Padsplit nationwide, even in like Puerto Rico and Canada and stuff. They've gotten around it. They have not been beat up at all. I mean, they've been through court and they've won every case, but you're right. They do get around rent control. And when I said this earlier, I said, people in your audience are not going to like this answer. Let's say that I live in a neighborhood right now. Here's the biggest problem in real estate right now. If I'm a real estate agent, I'm getting my butt kicked. Really, really bad. And if I am looking at the resident, let's look residential real estate right now.

59:14We know the commercial problem. The commercial problem is people's loans are going default. 99 % of people will never have the opportunity to invest in that. Sorry, guys. People go, how do I invest? You don't. You either go to Grant Cardone, give him some of your money because he has access to those deals or you don't invest because you'll never see those deals. Or Ken McElroy and Robert Kiyosaki, They're raising money too. But the residential world, what is going on? What's going on is days on market are climbing like crazy. What does that mean? Real estate agents are under pressure. They can't sell these houses.

59:42Why can't they sell houses? Well, because interest rates are high. And you could make an argument that houses are high too. I get it. Interest rates are high, so people are not buying. They're also unsure of what's going on with tariffs. They're unsure of what's going on. People are afraid. They're afraid of their own shadow. So they're like, I'm not going to buy. So sellers are having a hard time selling. Which results in what? Here's what it results in. 15 ,000 expired listings a day. What's an expired listing, Jack? It's when you relist it, right? Or you take it down? It means when the seller fires the real estate agent after six months of not being able to sell the house.

1:00:17Graham Stephan:Now, isn't that number though the same as what it was in 2018 and 19? Expired listings? No, they're way up. Way, way up. It's 300 ,000 expired listings a month is happening right now in the United States. So what does that do for somebody like me? I'm not calling real estate agents and saying, hey, I want to work a deal. I call the seller who just fired the agent. That's an opportunity for me, right? There's places for me to operate in this world where I call the seller and I go, hey, seller, you've been listed on the market. My name is Pace. I'm a buyer. I'm not an agent. I'd like to make an offer on your house today, but I'd like to ask if you'd let me take over your payments.

1:00:50We get a yes out of 20 % of those calls, okay? Now, whether that's a good deal or not is a different conversation, but 20 % of those calls we're getting a yes that's pretty freaking powerful right the market is is available right now for people to make a ton of money if you're taking that house and not doing a regular rental with it regular rentals are hard to cash flow right now almost impossible you're also not going to have a good time doing airbnb airbnb nobody's traveling you're also going to have a hard time doing midterm rental do you know what that is okay so like traveling nurses pilots stuff like that insurance things midterm rentals kind of saturated the one thing that's growing is Sacramento just came out with this.

1:01:27This might be a good video for you to put on your YouTube channel. There are now municipalities like Denver and Sacramento that are putting grant programs together for investors to do more co-living, which is the get around the rent control situation. They're putting money and they're changing legislation to make that a thing. So what's going to ultimately happen is these houses and these neighborhoods that people are not selling their houses, you know what's happening? Six and seven resident or tenants are moving into these single family homes. That is happening right now Now whether people like that or not that investors look at the marketplace and they go There's a problem Lack of affordable rent and houses are not selling.

1:02:05How can I capitalize on that? A good investor will look at every single market and pivot that is what's happening right now So people that are not ben moller that are buying hotels and doing whatever he's doing smart one of the smartest guys ever love him But in the single family world, what are they doing? How are they pivoting? airbnb is not working they got to make money they're going after expired listings buying them with creative finance and they're turning those properties into pad splits and renting them out by the room they're avoiding hoa so your neighborhood is safe but any other area in um okay so this is great i did a tour like three weeks ago in vegas and i went and saw like 30 pad splits in vegas they have a dedicated rep from pad split just in vegas because there's so many co-living is going on in Vegas.

1:02:49That is where the opportunity in single family is right now.

1:03:17No.

1:03:19Graham Stephan:What's the best deal that you've seen in the last year? Best deal I've seen that I've bought or best deal I've seen? That you've seen. Best deal I've seen is I had a student of mine assign a deal for$600 ,000, so he didn't even have to buy the deal. He just assigned it to another buyer for$600 ,000. I've got a student named Duran who bought an assisted living facility in Philadelphia, raised$8 million for it, turned into a hotel, refinanced it like$30 million and made$20 million in like 18 months. like those are crazy deals that happen um but they happen all the time right you ran into a weird deal imagine jack if you were actually looking for deals all day long you'd find a weird deal every day so where are the best places to look for deals um okay so best places to look for deal definitely not zillow where should i go to find a deal if i want to find a deal i would go to a web are you okay if i tell a website that i don't make money on but it costs money okay there's a company called dealsauce.io that I can just click, click, click, find all the foreclosures, dealsauce.io.

1:04:19Again, I don't make money on that. Dealsauce.io, I can find foreclosures, probates, inheritance. I can find expired listings, long days on market. I can find people that want to sell an owner finance. I can find anything that I want on dealsauce within like 20 seconds. And within two clicks of a button, I'm sending all of those sellers a message saying, hey, I'm looking to buy your house. Like it's that easy nowadays.

1:04:39Graham Stephan:Can you create a finance anything like what's the craziest thing that you financed? um, I just i'm buying right now a five hundred thousand dollar motor coach because i'm doing a tour across america to like help homeless people and do something cool So i'm buying a motor coach with no money down. I just bought a plane with no money down. I don't know if you guys saw that on my channel, but um I have a student that buys 300 planes. Here's what he's doing. He's going after planes that are like Forgotten about people are dying. You know people are inheriting these little planes in these little municipal airports he's buying them on seller finance and he's turning around and he's leasing them to training schools we're the number one country in the world for training for like pilot programs so all these asian company or countries are coming in here and sending their pilots to learn from us those training schools need planes and so he leases those two i mean you can do anything with creative finance it's the craziest thing on the planet i'm trying to buy a plane or a train because i want to be able to say planes trains and automobiles because half my cars i own are all creative finance.

1:05:37And I'm like, if I could get a train and I could put it on my farm, I'd turn it into like a bed and breakfast and I'd get a train on creative finance. So one thing I haven't done yet.

1:05:44Graham Stephan:Now, a lot of people are looking for ways to add stability to their financial plan, especially with all the uncertainty. That is where physical gold and silver comes in. Just this year, the dollar has dropped 9 % while gold is up 25%. Even if you're not watching the market daily, those fluctuations could have a very big difference on what your savings is actually worth. Our sponsor, Noble Gold Investments, helps you take control of that by giving you the option to buy real physical gold and silver or even roll part of your IRA or 401k into precious metals. It's not about betting on gold. It's about having something tangible that holds its value.

1:06:17Graham Stephan:And Noble Gold makes that process easy. You get a dedicated specialist, clear pricing, and they even have a guaranteed buyback program. So if you've been thinking about including gold or silver as part of your financial plan, now could be a great time to check it out. Just head to noblegoldinvestments.com slash iced to learn more or schedule a free consultation. Again, that is noblegoldinvestments.com slash iced with the link down below in the description. And when Jack and I started the iced coffee hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves from the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to get guests.

1:06:47Graham Stephan:It adds up fast. Every day was a new challenge. That's why if you're starting off your own business, you know how valuable today's sponsor is. And that would be Shopify. Shopify is basically your all-in-one business partner. They power millions of businesses worldwide, from major brands like Mattel and Gymshark to entrepreneurs just getting started. Fun fact, if you shopped online in the US, there's a really good chance it was through Shopify because they power about 10 % of all American e-commerce. What's great about Shopify is that they give you access to a complete design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand.

1:07:21Graham Stephan:There's no coding needed. And their AI tools even help you write product descriptions or enhance your product photos. Shopify also makes marketing extremely easy with simple email and social campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling. Plus, they handle literally everything from inventory to shipping to returns, basically all of the complicated stuff you do not want to deal with. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business ideas into... So sign up for a$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash ICH. That is shopify.com slash ICH with the link down below in the description if you just want to click it there.

1:07:54Guys, it is$1 per month. We've had so many guests on this podcast that have had million dollar Shopify stores. I've had a Shopify store. Graham's had a Shopify store. It is$1 per month to get this trial with the link down below in the description. I highly recommend it. Thank you again to our sponsor, Shopify. And now let's get back to the podcast. So if we're going to talk then about the overall economy over the next few years, the Trump economy, do you have any predictions in terms of rates or tariffs or just overall cost of living or national debt? Yeah. National debt's going to get way worse.

1:08:25cost of living is going to get way worse. Trump is not going to solve that problem. They're going to print more money. I mean, look at the big, beautiful bill. It's amazing for who, who's it amazing for real estate investors, me, like it is good for me and all of Trump's buddies. Um, I think that people that understand the game and they know how to ride the wave are going to ride the wave. And the people that are not are going to complain that the waves are too high. That's what's going to continue to happen. And people are going to sit on the sidelines. And what I'm actually fearful of, I'm curious about your guys' opinions about this.

1:08:54I think in five to seven years you look at like truck drivers Are truck drivers going to be around in seven years in any significant way? Okay, so how many people work in truck driving? Lots seven million people are in truck driving seven million between driving and logistics in seven years 10 of those people have a job 10 So you're looking at six hundred and ten six million One hundred thousand people are going to lose their jobs in trucking. Where are they going to go? electrical and plumbing and landscaping. Like I'm more worried right now about UBI and what the government's going to have to do with these people that I am about anything else.

1:09:32And so people look at like what's happening in the next two years, bro, what's happening in five years right now? And what do I need to own to benefit from it? So for me, I might be a doomsdayer, but I'm focusing primarily on affordable housing. And I think that UBI is going to be a significant thing. I think universal basic income is going to keep is the only way to keep people surviving. So when you say affordable housing, do you just mean like cheaper units? Cheaper units. Thousand bucks a month or less is affordable housing. Who's most at risk of AI? Okay, everybody. I mean, my as much as I look at even my own team, right, 300 employees and I have other companies that have hundreds of employees.

1:10:09I look at them and I go, I want to keep my team. Well, the problem is my competitors are not. so how can i i'm basically my hand is being forced to say well i have seven people doing this job great a great example i own a company out of the philippines five years ago i had an um an offer to buy it for 10 million dollars it's a cold call center out of the philippines physical human beings 300 people we had an offer to buy it for 10 million we turned it down i can't even sell it for a million dollars today why automated nope everybody looks at so 300 people in the philippines are going to lose their job because there's companies like, I'm sure you've maybe had some guests on here, but there's companies like prop.ai, like prop as in like property that does all the cold calling for you.

1:10:52Here's what prop.ai will do. Think about 300 people in the Philippines that are doing cold calling and customer service, what their job is for a real estate investor is what? They do the cold calling and they set the appointment for somebody like me to talk to a seller or let's say a real estate agent to negotiate a good deal. If prop.ai is a thousand dollars a month it outperforms 15 human beings that are a thousand dollars a month each in the philippines so that's fifteen thousand dollar costs yes you can get a whole filipino for a thousand dollars a month like full-time employee so fifteen thousand dollars a month prop.ai outperforms those 15 what do you think is going to happen everybody's losing their jobs and where are they going to go what are they going to do that's my question to you what do you guys think is going to happen with all these employees that are going to lose their jobs.

1:11:40I think people are either going to pivot and have to find work elsewhere or - Like what? That's the question. I don't know, but that's kind of the question that people had, you know, when we were inventing things like the cotton gin and other, you know, the printing press. And obviously this is on a much larger scale, but I also think that people had no idea, you know, where these people would go and work. Yeah, what would I do if I wasn't like, you know, tilling corn all day? And exactly. And we just, thank God he didn't have to till corn though, right? I don't know, man. I would have been really good at it, man.

1:12:07Some low yield. He'd be counting every single grain of corn. Exactly. All the way through. Making it sure to charge for every grain. What about you, Graham? What do you think is going to happen with all these people that are going to lose their jobs? I think it's inevitable. It's already happening. Also, I do think UBI will probably. You do agree with UBI? I do think so, yeah. Okay, I agree with UBI. So who benefits from UBI?

1:12:28Graham Stephan:Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

1:13:14Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Probably, yeah, you. Me. The sellers. No, not the sellers, the people who own the real estate. Because let's say that I have 161 units and they're all affordable around$1 ,000 a month. And the UBI certificate, where they basically pay your rents, very similar to Section 8. Section 8, yeah. Section 8 is really funny. People go into like Ohio and Iowa and they do the Section 8 stuff. Like they're impacting the world.

1:13:53I do Super Section 8, which means I'm not touching the prop. I'm not gonna do any Section 8 unless I can do 24 of them at the same time. So I can go get a 24 unit, put all of those people into that property. All of them are section eight. What have I now done? I've built a moat around myself for the future. So UBI or section eight or HUD VASH programs, they're going to pay that. So for me, I'm good. What I worry about, you don't have kids yet, Graham. Jack, I know you're going to have three kids. What are you going to tell your kids to do? I got a one-year-old boy. What do I tell my little boy to do?

1:14:24Well, Pace, you have plenty of money. He doesn't have to work. Is that what I want my kid to do? What does my kid do to provide value to the marketplace to find a sense of purpose? That's a bigger worry I have. I don't know. I think if you give the people the right resources and proper education, they'll be able to find their own way.

1:14:39Graham Stephan:I think there's going to crop up other opportunities that we just don't think of today. There's going to be something else that needs to be solved. I'm a denier. I'm like a climate denier or something. I don't think this is going to happen. You don't think opportunity will arise? I think there will, but I think that the mass amount of people that are going to lose their jobs, like some of my friends and guests you've had on the show, I see them talking about buying businesses, going to the home services. Okay. So I see people going and buying roof companies. Okay. Have you seen Rufus, the robot that's replacing roofs?

1:15:12R-U-F-U-S, guys. Go look it up. And I go, so I see all these people buying roofing companies thinking they're going to build a moat around themselves. Meanwhile, robots are already replacing roofs right now.

1:15:22Graham Stephan:but if that's the case then you could replace most things doctors accountants delivery could be drones i mean there's so many things that you could replace it would decrease the cost of living it would decrease the cost of living but it would also allow people to move further out from cities and that you don't need to be in los angeles anymore you could be an hour and a half two hours away kind of the middle of nowhere the average person right you guys met the average person, are they going to, no, he's not the average person. He's like one of the smartest people on the planet. No. Us three are not the average person, right?

1:15:57We're just not. I get to meet the average person all the time. I go on road trips. I go to meetups. I actually talk to the people that have like real significant worries and I meet them face to face. I smell the breath of the taco they ate. That's how close I am to them. You take all of this away from them. They will not go and create a pathway for them.

1:16:15Graham Stephan:Yeah. But you don't think they would move an hour and a half outside of the city. I think the cost of living is... I think they'll be forced to. But you're going to have autonomous cars. And the cost of living is going to be so low compared to where it would be today because of technology that I think... You know what I love about you guys is that you and I very rarely agree to anything. I think like... No, we agree on a lot. We agree on a lot. We agree to disagree. But on stuff like this, we do not. Yeah. I tend to think, and this is what we've seen, I feel like, from a policy perspective, is the more rules and regulations and just things that happen in the world, the stronger a divide it will just naturally create between those who have the capacity to provide a lot of value versus those who do not have the capacity to provide a lot of value.

1:16:57And capacity means mental, physical, or what? Mental or physical or, you know, whatever thing that drives someone to be productive. No, I think access to information is easier than ever now. The problem is like, okay, so for example, it's everything. I threw out a bunch of websites right today, like creative listing or prop or whatever I threw out. Most of your audience have never heard of those before, even though they're a thumb click away. I've never heard of them. Right. And so you look at this and a whole entire like hundreds of thousands of people are making millions of dollars off of those things in a completely different sector than like Ben Mala is.

1:17:32So how does somebody even know that those things exist? Just because it's there doesn't mean I know how to find it.

1:17:36Graham Stephan:Yeah, but now they do because they have YouTube on their phone. Yeah, that's very true. Okay, so I agree, but I don't think many people are actually going to go and search for the information. I think most people will sit and be lazy. I tend to agree with you a little bit in terms of that. Yeah, but that should amp people up that the bar is so low. But the thing is that life has gotten so easy. People will hate me for this, but I look at it and I go, look, you can either be the 90 % that hide their head in the sand, or you can be the 10 % of people that take advantage of the 90 % that hide their head in the sand.

1:18:10Like, think about this. The government's going to have to pay for UBI, let's say, 15 % of the population. I think in the next 10, 15 years, 15 % of... Already, what is it? I think it's like 30 % of the population relies on government assistance. 30 % right now, right? In 10 years, you don't think UBI is going to be at 10, 15%. I think you and I agree to this. I don't know if you do. Do you agree with UBI?

1:18:31Graham Stephan:Okay, cool. Yeah, I think we get rid of Social Security and we just do UBI. I would love that. I like this. I like this, Graham. This is a great idea. So who benefits from that are people that understand how to put themselves in the situation to benefit from that. And although it's accessible and they could learn from me, they could learn from your podcast, people go, just tell me what to do and I'll then do it. They won't go do the work. 90 % of people will not go do the work that's required because people have gotten soft. Do we agree with that? I think life has just gotten very nice. And I said this one time and people didn't like it, But I think that someone that's struggling and not doing well financially, just in a bad spot in their life, their life is still like 35 to 40 percent the same life as Leonardo DiCaprio.

1:19:17And the reason I say that is because they both sleep for eight hours, maybe, and they both spend a lot of time on TikTok and on YouTube and watching the news and doing those things. And then, sure, there's the 60 percent of their life where like the other person, you know, they're working at their job and they're like struggling to get by. And then the other 60 % of Leonardo DiCaprio is like with a hundred women that are a little questionably young. Like there's, it's very different lives. But still, I think that like the lives of the poor people are no longer completely different than the lives of the well-off.

1:19:49I agree with that. Like they used to be. What's the quote? The quote is hard men create good times. Good times create soft men. Soft men create hard times. Hard times. And so forth. We're in the cycle right now where soft people are creating hard times. right? I believe. Now I think that there's a world of UBI and things are getting easier and they're printing money and those people will just gravitate to that. How many properties do you plan on buying over the next year? So my buy box, if you go to pacesbuybox.com, you can see exactly what I'm buying and when I'm buying because so many people send me deals, pacesbuybox.com.

1:20:22I buy four RV parks a year, one big multifamily property per year. Again, this is all creative finance. I'm not doing what Grant is doing. People will compare me to Grant going, Grant's buying $300 million in real estate this year. I'm like, I'm not doing what Grant's doing. I'm not Grant. So four RV parks a year, a couple of mobile home parks a year, one big multifamily a year, and then I'll buy, I'm way slower on single family than I used to be. I'm buying maybe 10 single family properties only in Phoenix, Arizona, turning those all into co-living. That's what I do. And how are you able to buy property so much faster than everyone else?

1:20:56Creative finance. Think about it. You eliminate the bank, you eliminate the appraiser, you eliminate the inspection you eliminate the real estate agent you eliminate every single credit requirement involved what's the most you've ever got burned on a creative finance deal i've never been burned on a creative finance deal not once not one time there's not one time where you've like had to put money out of pocket oh yeah i've had deals where like um and i have some in my portfolio this is why i tell people do not buy single family homes like regular rentals for cash flow buy them for appreciation and plan to hold on for a long time um i have properties that had a pool repair that were$20 ,000 and they basically took all my war chest.

1:21:32Like I've had that stuff happen. So what could take you out? What could take me out? Um, okay. So what could take me out is my tenants inability to pay rent across the board. Like, let's say we had like an Armageddon situation and everybody loses their ability to make income. The government's not printing, um, money. Nobody's getting like social security or, um, section eight, you take section an aid out, you take social security, you take some of these things out, probably half of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay their rent. So the government would have to basically shut down.

1:22:03Graham Stephan:Aren't they doing that to a certain degree already? I've seen throughout Los Angeles County in California, there are so many restrictions and caps on what a landlord is able to charge. They just recently implemented that all landlords now in California must provide air conditioning and keep their units below 82 degrees at their hottest. And they're mandating that every landlord now buy an air conditioner or retrofit air conditioning in their properties. They're mandating that landlords pay for this out of pocket. My argument is that if the government mandates something, there should be a rebate or incentive for landlords to provide this.

1:22:39Graham Stephan:But they're basically blanket statementing, everyone has to do this now. And your rent cap has to be this. And if your tenant doesn't pay, they get, you know, two months before you could give them this notice and all these things. Isn't the government already cracking down on landlords or property owners? Yeah. I mean, you look at like rent control in Denver, you look at, so I choose to go after strategies that don't require that. So think about this. Like if I own an RV park, which I can buy with creative finance, do I have a landlord tenant situation? No. No. Because they're renting my dirt and they're in their own vehicle, which is on wheels, right?

1:23:13So I have moved and pivoted towards, first and foremost, I'm not buying in LA. A lot of my students do. I have like 700 students there, but they're localized. They understand the laws. I don't understand the LA laws, so I wouldn't buy in LA. That's not my buy box. But I do agree with you. I think they are cracking down. I think the scariest one is Denver and just rent control. Because if you are rent controlling a unit, yet property values are, let's say I'm a traditional real estate investor, and I buy a property, I put a bunch of money in it, and then they cap my ability to raise my rents. i understand i think most of your audience is business-minded so they're not the i think they're more landlord thinking than tenant thinking even if they are tenants they understand the business dynamic between the two i think it's definitely a scary landscape i think that that's not going to stop i think it's going to get way worse yeah what are the best areas to buy in um so the have you guys heard about the u-haul index no well so uh u-haul index shows you where everybody's migrating where they're moving.

1:24:09So like North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas. Um, I am actually slowing down on my Texas just because property taxes are crazy. Insurance is crazy. Florida. I'm exiting a bunch of my, my Florida properties right now. I'm 1031 and stuff outside, uh, hurricane. Actually, you know what the biggest risk of my Florida real estate is our insurance door knockers. Like this is something that government, uh, governor, uh, what's his name? DeSantos. DeSantos. Um, he's cracking down on these insurance company or these door knockers that are roof guys are going and knocking on doors saying, I can get you a new roof.

1:24:45I can get you a new roof. And they're just freaking raking these insurance companies over the coal. So what are the insurance companies doing? They're raising their rates significantly. Like I had a property in West Palm beach. We raise rents like 400 bucks. Insurance goes up 300 bucks. It's like, I'm, I can barely outpace my insurance in Florida. So there are certain markets that I stay out of that I'm starting a 1031 out of if I'm in single family. But if you're in like mobile, let's say mobile home parks or you're in RV parks, you can do RV parks anywhere in the country and not have any landlord tenant issues, if that makes sense.

1:25:17So I love North Carolina, South Carolina. I love Georgia. Arizona is awesome. Vegas is freaking phenomenal. It will always be, Vegas will always be really, really good. Outside of that, everything else is kind of hit or miss. I'm just curious, how much debt do you have? I have probably near$400 million in debt, something like that. Does that keep you up at night ever? No. Does that bother you at all? No. Like, do you have a car payment? No. That's lunacy, but you have a car, you don't have a car payment? Dude, I'm talking to the wrong audience. Holy crap. Here's the thing.

1:25:54Graham Stephan:Here's what you're trying to say. Yeah. When you're a million dollars in debt, it's your problem. When you're$400 million in debt, it's the other person's problem. It's the bank's problem. Um, so let's, let's talk about this. How much in assets do you have? Uh, my total portfolio, including businesses and real estate is like 500 million. Okay. And so now let's just say, would you, would you notice a substantial lifestyle difference if you just had a hundred million dollars free and clear without any debt versus having $500 million with$400 million in debt? Yeah, I'm sure I would but also i'm not a solo operator right like I have a team And so at some point you have a responsibility That I grow so that my team can also retire.

1:26:39That's a duty that I provide right one of the biggest things about like the Big beautiful tax bill that trump just released It incentivizes business owners like me to go and hire people and actually create jobs So if i'm sitting there going it's all about me. Let me take my hundred million dollars off the table Dude, like really what am I gonna do with an extra hundred million dollars of just cash hitting in the bank? do like, that's not my personality. That might be your personality and we can be friends, but I'm, I want to go build an empire. And I want, for example, I've got shout out to Molly, Shelly, Kelly, Heidi, all these girls that are on my team that rely on me to provide jobs to them.

1:27:13It's not just about jobs. It's also, where are they in five years and 10 years? Can they retire from putting their time and their energy into my business? As of right now, I would say probably not. I want to grow to a point. So what I do with my girls is, um, most of them, most of the people on my team are female run team. Um, those girls get 20 % of every asset I buy. So I go buy an asset. They get 20 % ownership over time that appreciates. Why do you hire mostly women? I come from a family of eight, eight girls in my family, eight girls, three, four boys. And I just, I think I just do better with women that are care about, Oh, here's a good and really even better answer.

1:27:50People will say I'm a bad leader when I give you this answer, but every time I hire a high level man, they just want to come and steal my business. They come in and they go, I want to come build this thing. I want to come do this thing. They come in and they just infiltrate and they get all the secrets. They do all the thing. And then six months later, they're competing against me. I've never had that with a woman, never once. So for me, I think by default, I just, they, men are all about me, me, me, me, me. Women, typically, not all of them are we, we, we, we, we. How do we win? How do we do this?

1:28:20They care about the customer more, right? Maybe I'm a weirdo, but if you go into a dental office, do you want to be talking to a guy or a girl? Be honest. Don't lie. Don't give me some bullshit. Give me the true answer. They're all women, though. I mean, let's be fair. They are all women. That's true. So I don't know. I've never really had a guy tinkering around. I wonder why it's all men. Yes, you have, Jack. Yeah, you have. You're telling me about that, do you? But why do you think that is? Why? Even women prefer to deal with women at the front counter. If it's broad across the business spectrum, is it just that that - You know what?

1:28:51Women overall have better people skills. There you go. And if I'm raising money or I'm lending money and I'm a customer service facing business, don't you think I would rather default to somebody who's more nurturing?

1:29:03Graham Stephan:But don't men have better sales skills? Men are better closers. Women are better with people. I think they're more aggressive if that's what you want. I'm not an aggressive closer. I don't have to close anybody. In my rental port, like who am I closing? You either like the unit or you don't like the unit. You like the press, you don't like the press. If you don't, buy. And so those girls don't have to sell or close anybody on anything. and also like my lending business, Heather and Jade, the girls that run my lending business, those girls are so good at building relationships that this is why I'd rather have a female in this role.

1:29:32A guy is trying to close, close, close, close, close. Heather and Jade will build a relationship with my borrower that even if my borrower finds a lender at 1 % less or 2 % less, they will have a relationship with Heather and Jade and they'll go, I'd rather just use Heather and Jade. They're reliable. I like them. There's loyalty there. Women are better at building loyalty between your customer and your company. So what do you think is holding so many people back today? Great question, Graham. If I could talk about this for hours, I think the, so I'm going on this big tour right now. I think it's going to be like the last tour I do.

1:30:05And I stress out about this exact problem because it's like, if I could invent one pill, it would be the take action, stop being an analysis paralysis mode pill. And so like the Maddie story, the homeless lady, what I did and the reason why I helped her is I'm like, if I could document this and give away the video content, maybe that would finally push people over to believe they could do it too. Then when I was doing the content, this is crazy. So as I was talking about Maddie on my Instagram, I haven't released anything on YouTube yet, but people go, well, yeah, she's homeless. So, you know, I'm not homeless.

1:30:37So that doesn't apply to me. I'm like, what the freak are you talking about? She literally has every disadvantage on the planet and you just need somebody to like literally hold your physical hand. I think that is one of the biggest things is people are like, just tell me what to do. So in this book, I'm writing a book called, um, start here and start here is like everybody in my DMS goes, where do I start? And so I want to give them a book that says start here. Right. So I've got Maddie homeless lady. I've got a single mom, um, husband passed away. I'm about to help her starting on Monday. Father with three jobs, juggling like bunch of kids.

1:31:10I've got a kid, um, flipping hamburgers that doesn't want to go to college, a wounded veteran, somebody who's doing side hustles for living to survive. And then I've got, um, uh,

1:31:46Pro-grade storage at The Home Depot. How pros get more done. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card. With unlimited 2 % cash back on all eligible purchases. Unlimited 5 % cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel Online. And a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business. You'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer of$1 ,500 cash back. after you spend$50 ,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership. Terms apply.

1:32:19Learn more at go.amex.com. An immigrant, somebody who just like immigrated to the United States that doesn't even have a social security yet. And these are the seven people I constantly run into that say it's impossible for me to be successful. It's impossible. So this book I'm writing is me going to these people, physically helping them, documenting every journey. I give them the blueprint and then they take the action. I'm not doing the work for them. Like Maddie, the homeless lady, I did not do anything for her except show her the way. I record all of this stuff and I'm going to give it to the world and be like, here you go.

1:32:51Like, here's hopefully that magic pill. But Graham, I think you know better than anybody else. Somebody will make a comment in your YouTube comments about some video you did. They'll make a comment in the active video and act as if you didn't make a video that answered that question two weeks ago. Have you ever experienced that? All the time. People are so unresourceful. So it's like they need people to spoon feed them or hold their hand. And so I'm trying to build that, um, in the real estate space through a book and then I'm doing a tour. So starting in November, I'll be on the road for 125 days where I'm going, all right, I'm going to prove to you.

1:33:24You can do this in Canada and I can prove in every major city. I'm going to go do what I promise I can do in three hours or less. So what I'm doing is starting in November. Um, and you guys want to see the tour dates. It's where is pace.com. I'm going to find somebody in that city. That's a single mom a dad with two jobs a veteran or whatever one of these core people And I then have a shot clock. I have three hours to help them get a deal That's it and I do that 125 days in a row to prove that people can do it I'm documenting giving it away And you know what'll happen people will watch the content and still not do anything about it I don't know the answer to that I wish I had a magic pill.

1:34:03I wish somebody could figure that out um i i we did a survey that like 99 of people watching youtube content don't ever do anything with the content they learn they take notes this is great but then they don't do anything right do you do you have an answer for that why people why you think people don't take action

1:34:19Graham Stephan:dave ramsey says it's because they don't believe the result they don't have faith that they'll get a result if they followed it i think it's even one step further beyond that i think that that's definitely true dave is like very very smart guy i think it's also they don't deserve they feel like they don't deserve the result. I think there's like self-esteem issues, imposter syndrome, fear of success. Nobody in my world made millions of dollars. So that's not possible for me. So I see people go take action, right? Like I'm not talking about like my community, but people in my YouTube audience go, Hey, I tried the thing and they will purposely go out of their way to like prove to themselves they can't do it.

1:34:57They'll self-sabotage. And I think it's a belief system. I like that. I like what Dave said. They don't believe the result is possible for them. And then even if it is possible for them, they feel like they don't deserve it. I'm curious for the education business, are you making good money teaching people how to do this? I'm not an educator. I, I, the way I would look at it is people go, do you have a mentorship program? No, I don't have a mentorship program. Do you have coaching? Do you have, um, like a course? I have all my courses I give away for free. What I do is I have like a, I have a private community, kind of like a country club of real estate that you join one time and you're in for life.

1:35:32I make a lot of money from doing that. I bought a hundred million dollars in real estate from them last year. So I make a lot of money from them. The cost to be a coach, like, do you guys see all the coaches like quitting right now? No. Oh, it's true. It's like, oh yeah, you're not in that space. Most coaches and mentors that are like selling information have all kind of gone away in real estate. I don't sell coaching. I don't sell mentorships. I have a paid community for sure, but I do deals with those people and that's where I make my money. So like Gordon, the guy who watched us. I'll probably buy 10 deals with Gordon this year.

1:36:04And he'll make, he made, on the last deal I did with Gordon, he made$22 ,500 bringing the deal to me. But I'll make hundreds of thousand dollars on one deal with Gordon. So yes, I do make a lot of money with my students. When did you first feel rich? I have Stryver's curse. I don't think I feel rich right now. I feel like that I have more, I feel, you ever do this where you're like, I've done all these things on my YouTube channel. people come to you and they say, Graham, you've inspired me. You've changed my life. And you're like, I feel like I haven't done anything yet. Do you ever feel like that?

1:36:36Less lately. Okay. But you have felt that. Yeah. I felt that. Yeah. Yeah. So like you hear other people say you're successful and you're doing all this stuff, but I think you've maybe have felt in these moments that you haven't accomplished what you feel like is possible for you. You haven't done the thing that you felt like you were setting out to do. And so I feel like I have a lot less, a lot more gas in the tank. Plus you hang out with guys like Ken McElroy, right? Like Robert Kiyosaki's partner. And you hang out with that guy. Here's what's really cool about Ken. You guys got to have him on the podcast.

1:37:05These guys give away a million dollars a month in charity. Like, I feel like the reason you should do well is so you can do good. And when you look at a guy like Ken McElroy and Robert Kiyosaki, nobody talks about that because it's not like viral worthy, but Ken McElroy has a full-time position in his office called the philanthropy coordinator. They literally give a million dollars away to philanthropy every month. So when I look at people like that and I hang out with them, I'm like, I'm not doing enough. I need to be doing that. Would you say that money buys happiness? Yeah, I think so. If you can go and write a check for$10 ,000 to a charity or$5 ,000 to a charity, I think there's a dopamine fix there that makes you go, I earned that money by providing value to other people.

1:37:48I deserve that money. Now I feel great that I can go give that. So yeah, dopamine is that happiness. And what are the highest ROI things then for happiness if you're spending money? Having a beautiful house for your children to run around in and a pool that they can swim in is the greatest ROI I've ever had. That's good.

1:38:04Graham Stephan:Jack is building a pool. Yeah. So he's one step closer. I'm chipping out and re-plastering my pool right now. It's like$75 ,000, which goes to your argument of like you should be renting because I would have my landlord fix that pool instead, right? but i look at that 75 grand that i'm that pool is like 15 years old so it's due but i look at that i'm like that is by far the best money i've ever spent is having my kids i mean you've heard elon say it go have more kids you're on your way four kids go do it hey any girl any girls out there that are single looking for a guy that's ready to mingle jack what's the worst roi purchases um private planes private planes horrible it's different though like you look at ken who you're i hope you guys get ken because i i like robert but i love ken mccaroy these guys are spending like their fund right they have 10 i think ken and robert has have 15 000 units right like they're at a different level that i will be at maybe in 10 or 15 years their fund pays for their jet i look at that$200 ,000 or$300 ,000, that's a hemorrhaging, that is the craziest thing on the planet.

1:39:11However, at his level, he can justify that expense. Why? Because his fund will jump in that jet and run over to a deal that they need to get under contract that's in Dallas. And time is of the essence when you're doing these big deals. I think it's worth$2 million a year if they're going to go buy$100 million asset and outbeat somebody else on that deal. $2 million, same thing with Grant. Look at Grant Cardone. If he has his jet, which he's buying another one right now, and he can get a better deal because he's faster on a deal than somebody else that's jumping a commercial or whatever it is. And he saves three or$4 million on an asset.

1:39:45And the plane operating cost is three or four. Dude, the plane's free for certain people. I'm not at that level yet. And I don't know that I care to be. I think I'm at a point where I don't, I'll never be Grant Cardone. I don't think I'll ever be an Alex Ramosi. I don't think I'll ever be, um, you know, Patrick Beddavid in terms of net worth. I've found what makes me really happy is just helping other people and having kids in the process. What do you think about the Magic Mind, by the way?

1:40:10Graham Stephan:Is this yours? It's not our product, but they sponsor the podcast. Okay, so I had one of these. I was with Sean Cannell from Think Media this morning, and he gave me one of these. I'm not saying this just because they're your sponsor. Okay. I had one this morning. I was like, why did I not know about this product? This thing is gangster. And when I walk in here, I see a Magic Mind. I'm like, I literally was introduced to it this morning. I saw it, and I got all happy when I saw the second one I'm having. They're delicious. Oh, you just wait, because you can bring these through TSA. Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:40:35It's smaller than what they restrict you. So where do people go for Magic Mind?

1:40:40Graham Stephan:Magicmind.com with the link down below in the description. And I believe we also have a coupon code. Boom. There you go, Magic Mind. It might get you something a little extra. But no joke, we have these before every single podcast. And we take them with us. I usually keep like five in my backpack. Love it. And that way we travel with them. I love it, yeah. And I genuinely like them. They also have one that's caffeine-free. This has enough where it doesn't keep me up late at night, but it's like a little bit of a boost. It's like five grams of protein, not protein, but of caffeine. It's like nothing.

1:41:06Graham Stephan:It's basically like not a strong cup of coffee, but they also have a max version, which is double that caffeine. This is awesome. If you really need it. But I love these. Are they selling in stores now? I don't know if they're in stores. But you know what? If you want some to go, I have some extras. Yeah, give me one. I don't know. Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming on. I really enjoyed this. We'll link to your info down below in the description. Jack, how are we doing a deal together? Are you going to turn my next deal down or are we going to do a deal? No, I'll do a deal with you.

1:41:32Okay, what about you, Grandma? Okay, so I got one. Let's say you lend money to me. I'll give you a personal guarantee on the money, and I'll go put you in deals, and I'll show you how big returns are happening.

1:41:42Graham Stephan:Yeah, I mean, the personal guarantee would get rid of the risk. Perfect.

1:41:58When others hear noise, T. Rowe Price interprets market signals to find investment opportunities. That's the power of active ETFs from T. Rowe Price. Their portfolio managers approach data from multiple perspectives, analyzing trends and conducting deep research to give you their curiosity-backed active management expertise. Learn more about their active ETFs at T. RowePrice.com slash explore ETFs. Exchange-traded funds, ETFs, are bought and sold at market prices, not NAV. Investors generally incur the cost of the spread between the prices at which shares are bought and sold. Buying and selling shares may result in brokerage commissions, which will reduce returns.

1:42:38T. Rowe Price Investment Services, Inc.