Block’s 40% Layoff, Netflix Drops WB Bid, Anthropic vs Pentagon, Amazon-OpenAI $50B Deal

18:06Marcelo Lima:In other words, it's not an or, it's more of an and type of agreement. Aaron, what does this mean for Microsoft now?

18:15Darrin Peller:Well, we saw Microsoft come out with a statement today essentially reminding the world, like, we are the only cloud that can serve OpenAI's models to developers. That hasn't changed. And also saying that even if Amazon and OpenAI build this AWS version of OpenAI's Frontier app, there's still going to be a version available on Azure. So I think Microsoft, from their perspective, they are still able to capture the market for developers who want to build applications that use OpenAI's models, which has been a very lucrative, multi-billion dollar business for them so far. At the same time, they do lose a little bit of the sheen of exclusivity that, you know, in the past, anything OpenAI related whatsoever, you had to go through Azure.

18:59Darrin Peller:And now you can have at least parts of that stack live on AWS, just not the models themselves. So it's a slight loss from them, I think mostly from a branding perspective, but they do still get to capture all of that model revenue.

19:14Marcelo Lima:Anissa, I want to pivot to a different story, a related story. But you reported this week, along with our colleagues in the Asia Bureau, that Meta and Google have signed their own multibillion dollar deal. Tell us about what you found. Sure.

19:29Akash Pasricha:So yeah, while OpenAI is signing this deal with Amazon and talking about Tranium chips, we reported this week that Meta just signed a very large deal with Google in which Meta will be using Google's AI chips, which are called Tensor Processing Units or TPUs. So we had known that Meta and Google were talking for a while about a big TPU deal. And as you know, Meta also has done big announcements with NVIDIA and AMD. But this one is really interesting because Google has been trying to get its TPUs into the market. They already have Anthropik as a big AI customer. And now Meta is going to be using the TPUs in a big way.

20:09Marcelo Lima:And now you just explained to us what the Tranium chip was good for. Is there something here on the workload side that TPUs are really good for that Meta would turn to them for?

20:19Akash Pasricha:People are really excited about the TPUs, mainly as a viable NVIDIA alternative. So there's been a lot of excitement around TPUs potentially being less expensive than NVIDIA GPUs at certain AI workloads. The thing is, you know, Google and NVIDIA both have to deal with supply constraints. So that is obviously, you know, a major constraint on Google's end in getting TPUs into the market. But Meta is kind of taking a multi-chip strategy here. So they're not exclusive to NVIDIA. And obviously with the AMD deal, they're looking around for other options. But the way Google pitches it is that TPUs are just as good as NVIDIA chips and they could be cheaper, which we'll have to see exactly if that's true and what discounts people have, of course.

21:06Marcelo Lima:Aaron, I want to step back here quickly and just look at the significance of all of these announcements in succession. I mean, this is a story we've been talking about. When will people diversify away from NVIDIA? What are the other alternatives? Will the hyperscalers' chip efforts finally pay off? This seems like finally a point where, I mean, you've got Amazon and Google. Their chips are finally getting used in a big way. I don't know that anyone would argue this is bad news for NVIDIA because we just saw that they posted monster earnings this week. But what does this tell you about the chip story overall?

21:43Darrin Peller:You know, I think that one thing that's interesting about all of these chip deals is that they do tend to, you know, with the exception of Google and Meta, they tend to come in tandem with funding rounds. I think OpenAI specifically is one customer that, you know, Microsoft won originally as a customer by investing billions of dollars at once into. We're now seeing Amazon win OpenAI's business in tandem with the$50 billion investment. And I think we have seen investors and shareholders in Amazon and in Microsoft questioning whether that is sustainable and whether OpenAI is a customer that will be durable and will stick around even after these investments are long in the rearview mirror.

22:27Darrin Peller:I do think it's really interesting that we're starting to also see companies like Meta turn to Google. I think that the big question for the entire cloud industry is just how long this acceleration in demand for training jobs among the AI labs, the companies building AI models, will persist. And if that'll continue to diversify, so far it's looking like, yes, there is enough demand and enough competition between different chips that these newer chips are starting to take off in meaningful ways.

23:00Marcelo Lima:And Anissa, I mean, you know, one thing that is also interesting to me is it also shows us whose chips efforts are actually working. Because we had another story this week that Meta was also thinking about designing its own chip. And really that effort seems to have fallen apart in some ways.

23:18Akash Pasricha:Exactly. Yeah, our colleagues Jyoti Wayne and Channer wrote about how Meta is shelving plans on its advanced AI training chip. Now, I can say from industry sources, the meta training chip program was always seen as maybe the first in-house silicon project that maybe wouldn't be successful. But I do think all of these announcements are putting pressure on in-house chip development efforts. When you have giant companies like NVIDIA making their chips orders of magnitude better year on year, it's very hard to have a competing chip internally. I think people think that in-house chips are going to be very useful on maybe specific meta workloads where meta can make a chip for a workload that is very core to their business versus meta making an AI training chip that is as ubiquitous as an NVIDIA GPU.

24:19Right.

24:20Marcelo Lima:Well, Anissa and Erin, I want to thank you for coming on. That is Anissa Gardizi, our cloud and compute reporter, and Aaron Holmes, our Microsoft reporter, here at The Information. Netflix has dropped out of the bidding war for Warner Brothers Discovery after duking it out with Paramount for months after it made its initial bid. This week on The Editor's Cut, I want to unpack that news and also some of the other big stories of the week we are bringing on. Martin Piers, our co-executive editor, and Nick Wingfield, our features editor. Welcome to you both. It's great to have you back.

24:50Aaron Holmes:Hey, Kosh.

24:51Martin Peers:Hey, thanks for having us.

24:52Marcelo Lima:Okay, Martin. So you kind of called this. You said Netflix, was this really a serious bid at all? Were they going to drop out? Walk us through your calculus here.

25:03Aaron Holmes:I mean, I think it was serious. I think that they actually, I don't think they would have gone through this much trouble just to sort of be a stalking horse and just to make life difficult for Paramount. but I think they definitely made the right decision. I think now the story will move to Paramount. I was looking this morning at the Paramount fourth quarter numbers that were released this week. That company's revenue declined last year. So here's a company which is overseeing a declining business. It's about to take on a massive amount of debt to buy another business, which also reported this week that they were declining.

25:50Aaron Holmes:The Ellison family is putting in tens of billions in equity. They've already committed several billion to Paramount. The risk that they are taking by combining these two declining companies is enormous. So I think Netflix has really lucked out. And you can see that by looking at the stock price, which has just moved up on news that Netflix is out of this thing.

26:23Marcelo Lima:Nick, I seem to recall when the three of us were on here a couple of months ago, weeks ago, I don't know. I mean, we were talking about what it would mean to both companies. I think you seem to be, you know, more in the camp of Paramount might make a little more sense, if any sense at all.

26:41Martin Peers:Well, yeah. I think that as long as they don't mess with the pit, that's really what this comes down to, which I was watching last night on HBO. That's what it's all about at the end of the day. I mean, we'll see. There's a lot more overlap between these two companies. So I think the implications for Hollywood are going to be really interesting to watch. Netflix's argument, of course, was that there was less overlap, you know, in terms of theatrical and things like that. But, you know, I mean, Martin is more of an expert on this than I am, but I think we're likely to see some, you know, if this deal goes through some pretty serious implications from a workforce standpoint for the combined company.

27:29Aaron Holmes:And one area which I can tell you reporters will obsess about because reporters like nothing more than to write about their own industry, is that CBS and CNN will end up being combined. So I guarantee you that this is going to produce reams of coverage that will dwarf anything else. That's a fairly small part of this whole thing, but it will be important, and it's probably important for Paramount's ability to get this approved because I'm sure Trump would like CNN to be owned by people that he considers friendlier to him.

28:06Marcelo Lima:And Martin, I mean, just talk a little bit about what that means for the media landscape at large. I mean, you have these two networks. If they come together, I mean, what does that say about the media? Was it inevitable? You know, just talk a little bit.

28:19Aaron Holmes:When you say media, you're asking about CBS and CNN.

28:21Marcelo Lima:Yeah, CBS and CNN, yes, yeah.

28:23Aaron Holmes:Well, I mean, look, those are both declining assets. So it makes sense that you would put together businesses that are declining, and hopefully you can cut some costs and make it more profitable. It's not ideal for the news industry, but that is the way things are moving.

28:47Marcelo Lima:And last question for you on this topic, Martin. Just on the antitrust component here, the government review, how much of a risk is there that this gets blocked or does it matter on what the plans are?

29:00Aaron Holmes:I don't think there's much risk. Look, Paramount announced the other day they've already secured one of the approvals that they need. So my guess is this is going to go through. Yeah, I mean, I think the real question now is how Paramount can handle the cost. Because as I said, they have to take on a huge amount of debt. So there's going to be a lot of cutting that goes on. And Warner has already been going through that over the last four or five years. So it's not going to be fun.

29:34Marcelo Lima:Nick, one of the other big stories this week, and there were many, but the standoff between Anthropic and the government has been a story that everyone has watching. Walk us through a little bit of what you've been paying attention to in this story and what the most interesting parts are for you.

29:52Martin Peers:Well, we've kind of seen this drama played out between the Department of War, the Pentagon on the one hand, and Anthropic over the past, I don't know, one to two weeks, where the Department of War is demanding that Anthropic sort of hand over its AI technology with no restrictions on the Pentagon's ability to use it in warfare. Anthropic is among the AI labs out there, is the most outspoken, shall we say, on safeguards. They don't want their technology used in mass domestic surveillance or for autonomous weapons. Now, there's a deadline tonight that the DOW has established for Anthropik to kind of agree to its demands.

30:41Martin Peers:And if it doesn't, it's threatening all sorts of crazy implications, including that basically Anthropik's technology would be banned from or declared a supply chain risk, which would have some pretty serious implications. The news hot off the presses here is that OpenAI also is basically drawing a red line in the sand and saying they too have some concerns about how their technology would be used. And as we report today in a story that just published, not only is OpenAI concerned about it, but Google probably will also have some concerns. Certainly, there's discussion internally and employees advocating that the company take a stand similar to the one that Anthropic's taken.

31:29Marcelo Lima:And so how do you think this inevitably plays out that now that other players other than Anthropic are starting to voice their concerns, what's your best guess on how this plays out and what the reaction is from the government?

31:44Martin Peers:I mean, you know, it's tough to say. I mean, on the one hand, you know, anthropics technology seems really good and the Department of War wants it. So you kind of wonder if the two sides might not reach some kind of compromise or at least start to communicate a little bit better about, you know, how anthropics technology might be used in kind of warfare settings. It feels like, I mean, first of all, There's bad blood between Anthropic and the Trump administration that predates what's going on with the Department of War. And you get the sense that maybe this is partly about that. It's not just about this specific thing, but there's this sort of accumulation of bad blood between the two sides.

32:37Martin Peers:maybe the two sides just sort of cool off uh department of war uh realizes it needs anthropic and and they come to some kind of agreement i mean i but it could get really ugly i mean that's that's the other thing and you you know all bets are off for what that might mean for anthropic

32:55Marcelo Lima:well martin the thing that i've been thinking about is this is kind of interesting because we have anthropic and open ai who are very much rivals here and the two ceos they won't even And it sounds weird to say, they won't even hold hands in public gatherings where they're asked to. But, you know, the unity here of the AI sector against this, I think, is something noteworthy here, I think.

33:17Aaron Holmes:Well, I think all of them need to be able to hire the engineers. And I think it's the engineers who are the ones who, you know, went to work for AI because they wanted to, you know, find cures for cancer or other good things. And I think they're all, they don't like the idea of using AI for killing people. What I'm surprised about is that I wouldn't have thought anyone would believe that the AI was reliable enough to be used for those kind of purposes, which seemed to be an issue that maybe we'll get some discussion in the next few days.

33:56Marcelo Lima:Nick, last question for you. Have we seen any conflict like this play out with other types of technology? I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, the cloud sector and when that was coming into fruition. certainly the internet as a whole? I mean, have we seen any version of the story play out before?

34:13Martin Peers:Well, it wasn't that long ago that there was a big movement inside Google over— this is kind of the 2018 timeframe, if I'm remembering correctly— over something called Project Maven that was kind of a precursor to this debate. And basically, Google backed off and decided not to renew a contract with the Pentagon over that. Employees were very animated about their feelings. They didn't want technologies they were working on to be used in kind of these war settings. And since then, I think we've really seen, for a variety of reasons, a shift in the balance of power away from employees inside technology companies, employee activists specifically.

35:00Martin Peers:We've seen companies, employers being much more resistant to petitions, protests, things like that. But the tension really hasn't gone away. There's still plenty of strong feelings inside these tech companies among the workforces about how their technologies are used. Ananthropic is really carrying that torch forward. I don't think we've ever seen a showdown like this exactly between a government an agency, a government department, and a tech company. So that's really unprecedented. Great.

35:38Marcelo Lima:Well, Nick and Martin, I want to thank you both for coming on. That is Nick Wingfield, our features editor, and Martin Pierce, our co-executive editor here at The Information. Switching gears now to another pocket of the AI sector, there is a new AI advertising unicorn on the block, Profound, a company that helps brands show up better in AI chatbot results and also study how they're showing up at present, raised at a$1 billion valuation. Joining me now to talk about where he hopes to take the company is James Codwell-Lotter, co-founder and CEO of Profound. James, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you here.

36:14Marcelo Lima:Yeah, good to see you. How's it going?

36:16Anissa Gardizy:It's going good.

36:17Marcelo Lima:You had a good week. Congratulations.

36:19Anissa Gardizy:Yeah, I'm always, you know, slightly hesitant to over-celebrate the fundraising stuff. I feel like we are, you know, very much in the arena up the mountain. It's like back to work now. But yes, it's good. Yeah, happy, happy to celebrate a bit of progress. Great.

36:40Marcelo Lima:Well, okay. So let's talk about the business traction then. If you know, we'll put the valuation aside. We had you on six months ago. You had just finished a fundraising round then. Tell us about the business traction you've gotten in the last six months. How much revenue are you going to have right now?

36:58Anissa Gardizy:I'm not able to share revenue numbers but yeah listen it's going really well I think this is a you know one of if not the biggest platform shift in the history of marketing I think in the future and you know the not so distant future that every marketer on the planet is going to care deeply about how AI talks about their brand products and services. And they're also going to use AI and agents to do better marketing in that same future. And our platform Profound speaks to both of those predictions. And yeah, we only launched 18 months ago. You're correct. sequoia capital led our series b in the summer of last year and yeah light speed venture partners just led a 96 million dollar series c at a one billion dollar valuation um but really yeah it is a reflection of the growth that we've seen we now work with over 10 of the fortune 500 um some of the biggest companies on the planet that you know we have thousands of marketers relying on the software that we built.

38:15Marcelo Lima:And so they're using your software to basically study how their brands show up at present in all of these chatbot results. And then you're offering them ways to basically improve how they show up. Is that right?

38:31Anissa Gardizy:It's a good question. Yeah. So I think when we announced the Series C this week, it was really to celebrate the launch of profound agents. and that speaks to the second part that you mentioned so really we we what happened is we we began as a platform you know really with the idea of like okay let's pull back the curtain and help big companies understand how ai talks about them and how ai surfaces their brand product surfaces you know so if i ask you know chat gpt or gemini what's the best crn does it mention HubSpot? Does it mention Salesforce? What does it say? How frequently does it mention them?

39:12Anissa Gardizy:But what we found over time is, and it was a good thing, we had a huge, enormous market pool, and we became the category leader there. But what our customers were doing is taking all of that data and all of the rich insights from our platform and then using content orchestration and content automation tooling as the sort of next part of their stack. So what we've now done is folded that all into Profound. So we've essentially built a second startup in the last three months, which we've coined as Profound Agents.

39:49Marcelo Lima:And the idea here being that it's not just how people view your results in the chatbots, it's how agents are perceiving your information and your company, basically, based on what's on the internet.

40:04Anissa Gardizy:Yes, kind of both. So, I mean, it's being able to build. Our view is that, you know, when you have all of these rich insights, the next thing you want to do is there's no silver bullet. There's, you know, the thing you need to do is do marketing. You have to create high-quality content and distribute that high-quality content. And you need to speak to the long tail, which, you know, platforms like ChatGPT like to pull from the long tail of the index. And yeah, the way in which we suggest the modern day marketer can do that is by building and customizing their own agentic workflows that can draw from the data and help them create content, do better reporting, and basically do more with less.

40:49Anissa Gardizy:And so if I hear

40:50Marcelo Lima:you correctly, you're basically helping, you're telling your customers you should be using agents to create that content and create it in real time that is customized to different customer profiles or different agents that are browsing the web type of thing.

41:08Anissa Gardizy:It can be, yeah, content creation, but also analysis. We've built, let's say, super intricate agents, for example, that do extremely complex competitive analysis in our platform. So really the beauty of Profound now is it's this workbench where you can customize agents to your business needs and kind of really, you know, it's really an accelerant. And the point I'd make, and I think this is the same tune as a lot of companies and, you know, different categories of AI, you know, at the application layer, is that it is still very much human in the loop. We celebrate the marketer. We think there's a birth of a new marketing profile, which is the marketing engineer.

41:49Anissa Gardizy:and i think the marketing engineer will utilize a workbench like profound to build customize and deploy hundreds maybe thousands of agents that help them do you know better work more efficiently

42:05Marcelo Lima:since we had you on the show last we have seen the ai labs introduce advertising into their platforms or at least move closer to it in many ways. And I wonder if you think of advertising, so if I'm a brand and I'm choosing to invest in advertising to show up in chat GPT, I mean, that's one way that I could get my name out there. The other way is investing in a platform like yours, which is optimizing the ways in which they sort of naturally show up in the answer engines. do you see these two paths as competitive? In other words, are you competing with advertising dollars and saying, don't do the ads, do us.

42:49Marcelo Lima:We're actually a better ROI.

42:51Anissa Gardizy:No, I see it quite the opposite. Absolutely is complimentary. So I think if you look at any marketing team on the planet, they have paid strategies and organic strategies. That's been true for decades now. And frankly, I believe at some point you will build likely you know we'll have ads functionality within profound as well so you'll be able to build advertising campaigns within profound for the generative platform so really we see ourselves as a workbench for the whole stack um yeah we you know it's it's we i think in the future marketers will need incredible technology to win and my view is that across the the marketing org marketers will rely on profound to do their work do you have a timeline for the the ads products at all that that sounds pretty exciting uh it's in the oven so it's like there there's okay calories calories calories the oven's on that's the point the oven is on yeah yeah it's happening yeah as we speak downstairs i'm i sit i sit here in manhattan dialed in from manhattan and yeah as we speak there's engineers working on it yeah great well

44:05Marcelo Lima:Well, James, I want to thank you for coming on. That is James Codwell-Lotter, the co-founder and CEO of Profound here on TITV. OpenClaw took the world by storm a few weeks ago, and its founder, Peter Steinberger, made big news in joining OpenAI. It was announced last week. In many ways, the OpenClaw story is now only going to get more interesting, and at the center of it is a new foundation overseeing the project. I want to bring on Dave Morin, the founding independent board member of the foundation. Dave, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you here. Always good to be here. Thanks for having me.

44:41Marcelo Lima:I can always count on you to be wearing timely hats. It looks like you've got the claw hat on. I did that for you. Well, I was going to say, you've got a pretty good supplier, too, because last time you were on, you were on with Ty, and we were saying that you needed to try your best hat. Now you've got the open claw hat, and I know you've got a black hat, too. So anyway, all right, let's talk about the foundation. So before we get into what the foundation is all about and what your role is. I mean, look, these tools change so quickly, and I feel like so much could have changed since the early versions of what OpenClaw was and what it is today.

45:15Marcelo Lima:So tell us, what are you able to do with the tool today, and how has that changed over the last two weeks even?

45:21Nick Wingfield:The last two weeks have been largely focused on security. So there's, you know, obviously hundreds of thousands, if not millions more people using the product, and security is a major component of what we're doing. And so most of the effort over the last two weeks has really been on hardening security, improving performance, adding more models, and just listening to the community and also trying to get more people on board. We've added a couple new maintainers, things like that. So really the story right now is that overwhelming demand. It's now the second largest open source project on GitHub, larger than Linux.

46:07Nick Wingfield:And so just trying to keep up with the storm.

46:10Marcelo Lima:And so help me understand what role the foundation plays now in all this. What are your priorities and what is your role in all this?

46:18Nick Wingfield:Yeah, I mean, the foundation's role is to protect the project, enable the community, enable stability. You know, now that this has become such a large thing in the world that we live in, in technology, it's important that it has resources to, you know, continue developing the open source project, you know, get more maintainers involved, you know, empower the ecosystem. That requires just a lot of little things. and importantly, you know, we've been, have just an unbelievable amount of people that want to help out. And so the foundation ensures open clause independence, regardless of where Peter works or, you know, who else is involved.

47:09Nick Wingfield:We want to kind of be a Switzerland of AI.

47:12Marcelo Lima:What does the community want to do with the tool? Like if you were to sort of think about what the roadmap is to further develop it, I mean, what are some of the ideas that people have on how to make it better? And, you know, walk us through sort of what your game plan is for the next year.

47:29Nick Wingfield:Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of one of the things that's been a big focus the last couple of weeks is that, you know, OpenClaw is your personal AI. It should be yours. And one of the things that we've been trying to explain to people is that this is not designed to be a multi-user game. there was a lot of people using it in a multi-user way. And one of the problems with that is that if there's multiple people collaborating with the same bot, the bot will respond to anyone and there's no privacy. You can try to set up the rules so that it maintains different communication with different people.

48:10Nick Wingfield:But the architecture of OpenClaw was designed for one person, one bot. And so that's one thing that has been going on quite a bit. And, you know, I think that the longer term roadmap, we'll talk about more as the storm quiets down a little bit. But right now, it's just focused on security and, you know, making what's there today much, much better and much, much more secure.

48:36Marcelo Lima:What was your reaction to the bigger tech companies? I mean, some tech companies have sort of banned it. They've blocked access to it. What's been your reaction to it?

48:46Nick Wingfield:I think that that's, you know, it's reasonable that the bigger model companies, they want to know who's using API keys. You know, you're seeing this play out across the ecosystem. I mean, you're even seeing this play out on X, right? Nikita over at X has been talking a lot about understanding who on X is a bot, who is not, right? And I think that's going to be a huge conversation over the next year. And so I think that's mostly what we're seeing. We're seeing that people really want to understand what's using an API key or a token. You know, there's been a lot of kind of nuanced conversation about like, why can't I use my Mac subscription for this or a token for that?

49:29Nick Wingfield:And it seems that the model companies have a very reasonable position on this, which is that they want to know what's using the tokens and why. And so our perspective is like, that's fine. And, you know, as time goes on, we're going to figure out better models for this. And it's just a little bit of bumps in the road right now.

49:50Marcelo Lima:One of the things I wanted to get your take on is the adoption curves of these technologies. And you've seen a number of different versions of software play out in terms of adoption going from just early users to really getting everyone using them. And, you know, I can't tell if today with a tool like OpenClaw, I mean, it comes out, as you mentioned, X is noisy. People get loud about it. They're proud about it. They start posting about it. And, you know, on the surface, it seems like adoption is happening faster because people are making so much noise about it. I can't tell if that's actually the truth of the matter and if software, new tools are getting adopted faster compared to, you know, I don't know, a decade ago.

50:35Marcelo Lima:Or, I mean, is it really just the case that people have a place to talk about it that's a little noisier now?

50:43Nick Wingfield:Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I think one of the curves you can look at is the GitHub stars. The number of GitHub stars that happens on OpenClaw is literally a straight vertical line.

50:58Marcelo Lima:And for people who might not be familiar with it, just walk us through quickly. How valuable is a GitHub star?

51:05Nick Wingfield:Well, GitHub is the place where all of the code is, you know, people keep the code that they share with others in the open source community. it enables people to download the code, run it themselves. It's what enables you to download OpenClaw onto your Mac or whatever computer you want to run it on and use it. And so there's also the possibility that you can download that code and improve it and then suggest improvements to the project to add them. And when people really love a piece of a project, they give it a star on GitHub. And it's a, you know, it's a, you can also look at the number of downloads of the project.

51:51Nick Wingfield:There's a bunch of different, you know, metrics on GitHub, but the speed at which OpenClaw went to the number two project in the world is unprecedented. And so it suggests not just that people are looking at this, but they're actually using it and improving it. And, you know, I don't know. the answer to your question like is that because the internet is global and you know we've got always on x and you know live streaming uh technology tv to talk about this stuff um i don't know there's probably some element of that but i also think that the way that these things go truly vertical like this is because they're great and because people uh tell each other about it.

52:40Nick Wingfield:And that doesn't just happen through the internet, but it happens, you know, word of mouth and person to person and people telling each other, Hey, this is the best thing that I've ever used. I mean, that's the reason I'm sitting here with you. I was, you know, really inspired by this. And so I reached out to Peter, uh, late December, early January, just to tell him how much I appreciate what he built, you know? And so you guys didn't,

53:03Marcelo Lima:you guys didn't know each other before, before he released it. No. Wow. What was the, So you just told him, you said, I want to be involved. And he said, sure, come on.

53:13Nick Wingfield:It was less I want to be involved and more. I just genuinely appreciate what you've built. This is the first time that I felt like I've been living in the future, maybe since the LAMP stack in the early 2000s, when we built a lot of the early web software or maybe the iPhone. It was out of genuine respect and gratitude. I've not had this much fun building things in a really long time. And so that's what started the conversation.

53:44Marcelo Lima:I just want to go back to the adoption piece because I think, you know, just to sort of extend it, I mean, I think the GitHub star example is interesting because this really means that, you know, the early adopters, the developers, I mean, they clearly are using these tools faster. And you can look at the arc or the slope maybe of that line as one proxy for that. But I mean, the broader question I have is, you know, the pace of adoption of new software as a whole, broadly speaking. I mean, do you think that that is going to be any faster today than it was 10 years? And I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about people who don't have any developer background.

54:22Marcelo Lima:You know, I mean.

54:25Nick Wingfield:The numbers would suggest yes, right? Right. ChatGPT was the fastest growing consumer internet app in history. Right. Like there's many charts. I don't, I don't have charts that I can throw up right now, but you can, you can look at the, you can look at the chart of ChatGPT's growth versus Instagram or Facebook or Snapchat. And it's, it, it far exceeds the adoption of those, those other applications in different eras, right? And so it suggests that the consumer demand and the developer demand, and by the way, the investor demand for AI as a technology is much more meaningful than any prior technology that you and I could sit here and come up with in our heads as we talk.

55:18Marcelo Lima:So last question for you, Peter is now at OpenAI. What can you tell us about what you think OpenAI and Peter are going to be working on together, given his expertise?

55:29Nick Wingfield:Well, I think those questions are for Peter. But what I can tell you is that OpenAI has been very supportive of the foundation. And the process so far has been lovely. And so I think we're all just trying to figure out how this is going to work out together. And it's great that, you know, they were open to supporting this as an independent foundation. You know, I think this is really the lamp stack moment for AI. And, you know, I and the foundation are just really focused on making sure that this open source project stays safe, protected, and that we empower like a, you know, a massive software ecosystem on top of it.

56:13Nick Wingfield:people can build businesses, people can venture capital can invest. And, you know, this, this turns into a beautiful ecosystem.

56:24Marcelo Lima:Great. Well, Dave, I want to thank you for coming on. That is Dave Moran, the founder of Offline Ventures and the first independent director of the Open Claw Foundation here on TITV. That does it for today's show. Reminder, we are on this stream Monday through Friday at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern. I want to thank you all for tuning in. We really do appreciate your viewership. Make sure to subscribe to the information on YouTube and follow us on X, Instagram, TikTok, and check us out wherever you get your podcasts. I'm already excited for our next show on Monday. Have a great rest of your Friday and have a great weekend.

56:58Marcelo Lima:Bye-bye for now.