Seth Rogen Knows the Secret to Marriage — and Being Rich in Hollywood

25:37And then, I mean, getting to work with her on the first season, like, it really like pushed us to want to do right by her and to want to make the show live up to her standards and what we felt she deserved. And she plays your sort of mentor in this. Yeah, and she plays my mentor and kind of a maternal figure to me, which she sort of was at times as we were making the show and would send us notes on the scenes, would completely rewrite the scenes. I would say in like the most Canadian way ever, she would send me an evident email being like, here's some thoughts.

26:10Seth Rogen:And then would be a completely rewritten version of the scene and it would be like, take it or leave it. And it was like such a funny Canadian way of being like, this is better. You should do this. But never said with those words, you know. and then it was just incredibly sad we just start to hear she was sick and we'd see her and she heard she wasn't doing well and as we were nearing the second season you know it was we would just talk to her and it was clear her health was not great but she really wanted to come back and intended to come back and and I think it was a real like goal for her to come back and keep doing the show and I think she was really looking forward to coming back and doing the show um and and honestly in the back of our heads we were like we hope she can but we don't know if she will be able to and so it is this kind of very sad thing we're like kind of creatively you're kind of making like in the back of your head these contingency plans but you kind of don't want to think about it but your brain is kind of telling you one thing and you're trying not to believe it in some ways, you know?

27:18Um, yeah. And then we heard she passed away one morning and it was the first week of shooting the show and it was really, really sad. And, and we were all together, the whole crew and everyone loved her very much and the cast and we kind of didn't know what to do. And, and we just kept shooting and they were like, I think the idea of like making each other laugh and being together felt preferable to anything else we could have done that day, you know? Yeah. I'm sorry. So, um, I want to go back a little bit to your upbringing. You grew up in Vancouver. I sure did. You started in comedy really young.

28:03You started playing stand-up in clubs at 13. Yeah. And your mom was really encouraging. Uh-huh. she would let you stay out, stay up all night, working on your routines. And I think that's pretty unusual for a parent. Were there ever moments of tension with her about it, that you wanted to do things that she wasn't letting you? Or was she just letting you kind of open that door and walk through it? I mean, she was there all the time. So it wasn't that, it wasn't like unsupervised freedom. You know what I mean? Like, so at once, it didn't, it's funny. like freedom is not the word I would use to describe it.

28:39It was more like she was just very supportive of a goal I had. It didn't feel like my mom was just like taking me to comedy clubs to hang out. Like I was there to do something, you know? And, and, um, and the comedians were old and I didn't like hanging out with them that much. Honestly, like they, it was fine to hang out with them, but I wasn't like, I want to be friends with these guys.

28:59Seth Rogen:Like I was, I was, I was a teen, like I had teenager friends, you know what I mean? Like, and every time I did hang out with them socially was weird. And so that wasn't the goal either. Like, it wasn't like I wanted to hang out with these old guys and get drunk or anything like that. Like, it more felt like I was really like ravenously pursuing a thing. And my parents recognized like I was unique in a way that I was like pursuing this thing in a very serious way, you know? You used the word ravenously. That's such an interesting word. Is that how it felt? Yeah, I think for sure one of the reasons that I, I think especially from a young age, like managed to work a lot was because I, yeah, had like a, like a real hunger for it and was willing to really put in a huge amount of time and energy in a way that I, you know, I assume maybe like teenage athletes would, you know, but for me it was, it was this, you know, and I loved it.

30:02And when me and Evan started writing Superbad together when we were 13 or 14, like, it's all I wanted to do. Like, we would skip school to write Superbad. And I think even my parents could probably see, like, oh, like, this is, he really likes this. And he is really motivated to try to succeed at this. Not in, like, a cute kid way, but in a way that felt real, I think, you know? Do you look back and think it's weird that you and Evan connected at 13? Yeah. No, but it has just been this incredible partnership. It just seems to me that two boys who connected so fundamentally and had so much talent were able to be at the same place at the same time and keep in touch.

30:50Yeah, we marvel at it all the time. Like it's not lost on us that it's sort of a, like a miraculous thing. I think it was like two people with like a little spark met, but then together we became a singular kind of creative entity in a lot of ways. And like, we're brain, our brains weren't even like fully formed when we met, like our brains, like our creative brains really formed around one another. And like, I, I think that's not any small part of why we work so well together and why we continue to work well together. because we started at a very young age together, and there became a cohesion in thought that was really, like it's impossible to replicate, I think, because we truly grew up with each other and watched movies together all the time, would talk about them, first started to learn to write dialogue together and to experiment with that together and to try to structure a story together.

31:50And so inherently, like what I think is good stories structure is what he thinks is good story structure and what I think is good character development. He thinks it's a good character development and what I think is a good way to write a scene. He thinks it's a good way to write a scene because we came up with it together. You ended up moving to L.A. at 16 to star in Freaks and Geeks after an open casting call in Vancouver where you got the part. And, you know, one of the things that is also really interesting is that you started financially supporting your family at 16. Yeah. Do you think that responsibility shaped your work ethic?

32:28I mean, you talk about, like, absolutely loving what you were doing, but that also feels like it might have been... For sure, yes. Something that felt like a big deal. I think I very much had, like, a fear of going broke and a fear of not having money,

32:41Seth Rogen:and a lot of my friends were much more well-off than we were, and I would just see. I would go to their houses, and it was, you know, It was like, yeah, it was like a real house. And like, I grew up in like a co-op, like in sort of, you know, in like a, like a little housing community, basically. It was like somewhere between like an apartment and a condo, I guess, you know? And, um, and yeah, I, I for sure. And I, and we were never like, you know, we weren't like going hungry or anything, but I could just see I was in a very different financial situation than everyone that I was kind of in my community, you know?

33:15Uh, I'm sure that had something to do with my drive from a young age. Has that shaped how you think about money and success now? I think if anything, and this is probably not like the healthiest way to approach it, is like I think I spent so much time worried about money when I was younger that now that I make more money than I ever thought I would, like I think like the gift I've given to myself is I never think about it. Like I have no, I almost never think about how much money I'm spending or making. I don't fetishize money. I don't care if other people are making more money than me doing the exact same thing as me.

33:57I don't have like an ego about it. I'm making more than, than I ever thought I would. And so I see other actors who are very competitive. I've had conversations with other actors about it, you know, and, and, and, and that has just not been my approach to it. And as far as spending money goes, like it's again, not a thing I see rich people who are like, I'm like, you're focused on that amount of money. Like, like the amount of stress you are causing yourself over an amount of money that will never impact your life in any way, shape or form is insane to me. And so I think like the gift I've given myself is I, I truly spend as little time thinking about it as humanly possible.

34:37And as little time trying to focus on it or fixate on it, I try not to be overly principled about it.

34:45Seth Rogen:If I feel like I'm getting charged more because of who I am, I'm like, yep, that's the way. If you're going to charge anyone more, it's probably me. You know what I mean? And that's the way the world works. I try not to be philosophically, you know, uh, up in arms about my own, you know, financial situation in any way. I don't care if I'm getting ripped off a little. I don't care if I'm overpaying for things a little, honestly, like I'm not, again, and I'm around people all the time. We're always, who are rich, who are trying to get deals and trying to get a break and trying to get like, they trying to feel like they are, makes them feel special or something more.

35:25it's funny like there's this uh i read this book on i read that going clear book really every once in a while you know like you read like one sentence and it like snaps your whole perspective into place a little bit and i remember reading that book about scientology and there was just one sentence in it about how famous people tend to do a thing where if they aren't treated in a certain way they it makes them think they're not as talented as they wish they were and it's like if i go to a restaurant and i have to wait 20 minutes for a table instead of them just seating me right away as as they are the famous person next to me is it because i'm not as am i not as talented as i thought i was am i not as good as i thought i was if i'm you know if i'm trying to get into a party and and they don't just let me in and i have to wait in line like does that mean I'm not as good a writer as I thought I was?

36:18If I'm not getting a deal, if I'm not getting the best hotel room and I go next door and someone has a nicer hotel room than me on the press tour, does that mean that I am not as good an actor as I thought I was? And I think that is how a lot of famous people interpret how they're treated. And they think that if they're not getting the best treatment, they aren't as skilled as they wish they were or as they thought they were. And that was a thing that I realized when I read that. It's like, oh, it is tapping into some deep part of me that makes me worried I'm not as talented as I want to be or as I wish I was.

36:55And that's it. Because that's like the thing you fear the most and is the most potentially painful. How did you work through that? Because obviously you said you felt that at some point and then it changed for you. Honestly, as soon as I read that one sentence, it started to shift for me. And I started to much more easily identify in myself when that was happening. And I was able to sort of, I think, shift my behavior pretty quickly in the wake of that. Once you've moved out of that, how do you define your success? What are the metrics by which you say, you know what? This is good. I did well.

37:33I'm okay. um i mean i wish it had nothing to do with how the work was received but it it for sure doesn't

37:46Seth Rogen:like that that is definitely a part of it you know um obviously obviously and and and i think that is the thing that most artists feel the most conflict about is like external validation versus did I do what I wanted to do? But the truth is, if my work isn't received well, then I didn't do what I wanted to do because I want people to like what I do and to enjoy it. And especially when you're making comedy, which I think is the hardest thing to make in a lot of ways because you are announcing that you are going for a specific reaction. And with a dramatic film, you're not really saying that. You're kind of saying like, you know, we hope you find it insightful or interesting or meaningful or sad or cathartic.

38:30But with a comedy, you're saying, like, I want you to laugh. And if you don't, I've failed. And it's also the making of it to me. Like, that has to go a certain way. And that has to be a certain process, I think, in order for the work to be successful. And I think the day-to-day of it has to be cohesive to what I feel that should be in order for me to think the work is good, I think. I'm just very interested in this. So last question on this. But when I look at the studio, you are the creator, the producer, the director. You help write it, and you star in it. So it is really a Seth Rogen production in every possible way that it could be.

39:16And then just to use the film that you're currently in, you're just acting. And obviously you helped craft the character and the dynamics, but it's not... you don't have the same kind of responsibility. No, my name is on it one time. Yeah. So can you parse that out for me in terms of that idea of getting satisfaction or having it reflect yourself? How do you differentiate between those two different things? I mean, the truth is, for me, it is much more engaging to do what I'm doing on the studio. Like, I greatly prefer to act and write and direct. And it's really hard and taxing. It sounds really hard.

40:02It takes a lot of me, but I genuinely love it. And I never feel like I am doing more of what I should and could be doing from, like, a creative standpoint than when I'm doing all those things. And when I'm on the set of the studio and I appreciate the crushing pressure and the focus and what is required of me in order to do all those jobs well. And when I am able to actually do them all well, I feel a level of creative satisfaction and gratification that I will never get from just doing one of those things, you know? and so if I'm going to act in a thing it has to be a thing that I feel like I would really love the product of a movie that if I saw it I was like oh like that's the exact type of movie I love to watch so like being in the Fableman Steven Spielberg etc.

41:01Yes a thing like that you're like of course I'm going to work with Steven Spielberg and it'll be educational and I then put it on myself to really extract everything I can from from the experience as well. And, and even if I'm acting for an hour a day, I, I'm on set all day and I, and I, I literally stood beside him and just asked him questions. I would bring up scenes from his movies on YouTube and just be like, explain to me how you did this. What, how, what did you think of? How technically did you do it? And he loved it. And I, Really? Yeah. And I did that. And, and I was just stood beside him all day asking him questions about how he filmed his movies and how he conceived of them, how he blocks them, how he storyboards, how he, you know like I think what I learned about blocking on the Fablemans is like was like directly put in the studio and how to move the actors around and move the camera around the characters and how to make it dynamic even a scene where people are at a dinner table talking and like all that I was like oh I'm gonna absorb all of this from from Steven Spielberg if I can.

42:05So the way I read your on-screen and off-screen history as we sort of discussed it's sort of a testament to male friendship. There's Judd Apatow, of course, who hired you for Freaks and Geeks, and then you met a whole bunch of buddies through that, Jason Segel, James Franco, and of course, you've had the same writing partner, Evan Goldberg, as we've discussed. I asked you earlier what makes a good relationship. What makes a good male friendship?

42:35Seth Rogen:I think the same things as any other dynamic, you know? Like, like I found with, you know, Evan and, and the people, you know, I tend to work with my close friends, not all of them. I have very close friends from growing up who I don't work with. Um, but you know, I think like a desire to be good to one another, which again, sounds intuitive, I guess. But I think when I look at people who have bad relationships and bad dynamics, like that's the thing I notice is just like, they don't seem to want to be nice to each other. And they seem to be looking for every reason to not be nice to each other.

43:14And I think it comes down to like, do you like this person? you know, and I come from a world, yeah, where it's like, it was not like a macho sports oriented, like environment, like everyone's parents were in therapy and, and, you know, like I'm from the, I'm from the Pacific Northwest, you know, we were ahead of the curve on a lot of that stuff in the eighties and nineties. And so I think like, I come from a group of friends who were very like communicative and open and not afraid of sort of sharing what they were feeling with one another. Why do you think that version of male friendship translated so well on screen?

43:57Me and Evan still marvel that like Superbad is still remotely, not just like accepted in today's society, but as a thing like kids still really seem to watch. Yes, indeed. Just like when we were young, we would all watch, we would watch Fast Times and things like that. Like, it seems like Superbad has somehow like filled the slot in many ways of like the high school movie you, you watch and relate to when you are in high school, you know? And, and I think part of it is because like, it is, it is about exploring kind of being vulnerable with your friends, you know? And, and that I think is, is a coming of age thing, like in and of its own right, you know?

44:45And I remember when I was moving to LA, I was, I did a bunch of shrooms with my friends. I was 16 years old and we were all at their house. We were at one of my friend's houses and it was like the sun was coming up and I was laying on the couch and my friend Fogle, who McLovin is based on, was, was there laying on the

45:02Seth Rogen:couch beside me. the other like like we were he was like a sleepover and we were kind of you know um and i remember just being like i'm so terrified to like move to los angeles to do this show and i'm not gonna see you guys anymore and i'm gonna have no fright i don't know anybody out there and and he was like yeah man like high school ends next year for us too like i don't know where any of us are going to college if we're gonna be friends anymore if any of this is gonna happen and like it felt like a big moment. And it felt like the first time any of us had really acknowledged to one another, like how much we cared about one another and how afraid we would be without one another, you know?

45:40And I think that's like a feeling, especially as high school ends and you're kind of going your separate ways. For me, it was to go work, but it was no different than if I was going to a college and all my friends were going to a different one, you know? And I think that It's a little different. A little different.

45:55Seth Rogen:But for all, you know, logistically, it was very similar, you know? And I think that feeling was what we really tried to put into the movie, was this feeling of, you know, not that high school's easy, but there's... You're on the cusp of something. You're on the cusp of something unknown. And I think that was, however we were able to, like, bottle that feeling and put it into the movie seems to resonate. I mean, one interesting thing about your character in The Invite is that he has no friends. And, I mean, it just seems pretty reflective of what's happening in the culture today more broadly with men.

46:33You know, the loneliness epidemic. For sure. And I just wonder, is Hollywood doing a good job of showing positive male friendships the way it used to?

46:42Seth Rogen:I don't know. No, because I think about, that's what I'm saying. I was thinking about Superbad, and then I just, it just really, when I thought about your character and the invite, and just what we're seeing in the culture writ large, and as someone who has really channeled male representation on screen, I mean, I came up watching Lethal Weapon, you know, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Superbad. Yeah. Things just don't seem to look like that anymore. I think, I mean, it's interesting. Yeah. Like we try to do it on the studio a little bit. You know, there's the stuff with me and Ike. Like I think ultimately like that is a relationship we do keep.

47:17Like it's probably the most emotionally kind of constant relationship on the show. And, but I don't know why other people don't explore it. I know we have just done it a lot. And so I think it's something as we look to, it's like, I mean, it's funny. we did this roast many years ago. Um, and, uh, Nick Kroll had a joke that really hit close to home where he was making fun of me and Evan on the roast. And he was like,

47:45Seth Rogen:what are you guys going to make another movie where they're friends? Then they stop being friends. And at the end, they're friends again. And I remember like being like, Oh yeah, that's, that is every movie we've ever made. And not to say that's a bad thing, but the fact that he could boil it down, That's simply into a joke. I think we were like, yeah, maybe we should move away from that a little bit.

48:09I'm going to ask you about a friendship that you did have a public break with, which was your friendship with James Franco after allegations of sexual misconduct were leveled against him. I am curious about how you worked through that decision, and did that change the way you think about friendship at all? Um...

48:32I mean, I'm trying to think how much I want to personally share about this. I understand that. I. The reason I ask is this. I think as a culture, we are still grappling with if and how we allow people who've behaved badly back into our lives, back into the culture. And so I was sort of wondering about, you know, what was a very seminal relationship for you? Yeah, like, I honestly think the nuance of it is too personal for me to get into right now. Like, it is a very personal thing. And I think there's like the public-facing side of it, which I've spoken about. And I have the same stance publicly that I've had.

49:21And I think the proof is in the pudding more than anything is just, I haven't, I have not worked with him in years, you know? Um, but like the personal side of it is just, it's, it's so nuanced and it involves people that I don't know if I should be dragging into this. And I think it's, you know, I don't know what I would benefit from getting deeply into it in this moment. But I'd say everything I've said, nothing has changed really since the last time I've talked about all this. And I haven't worked with him in a really long time and I have no plans to. Do you talk to him? I haven't talked to him in a long time, no.

50:04So I want to ask you about your on-screen relationships with women because I love Platonic, where you have a deep friendship with Rose Byrne, who's also like a regular collaborator with you. Yeah, she's great. So how have you sort of thought about the female-male dynamic on screen? Because platonic literally is, again, about friendship. It's not romantic. Yeah. It's so interesting, considering your previous comments about not finding the romantic dynamic interesting, that this is a central storyline here. Yeah, I mean, I think it can, again, I think it can be, like, reductive. Like, I think, like, for so long, that was the only dynamic there was between a man and woman on screen, essentially, was a romantic one.

50:51And part of it is just, like, what is new that hasn't been explored but is true to all of our lives or many of our lives anyway? And, and, and it's funny, like, I think so much overthinking it in some ways goes into like, what makes a funny female character in relation to a funny male character, you know, and do they have to be smart? Do they have to be dumb? Is it dumb? Is it bad if they're dumb? Is it sexist if they're dumb? Or is it sexist if they're smart?

51:20Seth Rogen:Like, I've seen, I've seen both things argued. I've seen, you know, it's like, oh, you don't want to give her the dumb character. but like that's often the funnier characters, the dumb character, you know what I mean? And the worst choices a character makes, often the more comedically they can perform as an actor, you know, but they're dumb, you know? And so like - I mean, Marilyn Monroe is one of the great comedic actresses of her day. Exactly, so I think like, to me, what I've found with, to be the healthiest conversations is just like what creates the most comedic potential if that is what you're trying to do, you know?

51:55and to not try to I think as soon as you start to think too globally and lose sight of like the thing you're making is when you get lost in the weeds a little bit and and and and what does that mean if you start to feel like well like what we are saying with this is like men are like this and women are like this like that to me is so much harder to wrap my head around than like what I'm saying is

52:22Seth Rogen:this guy is like this and this woman is like this. And that's funny together. It is specific to this. And what we are doing is making it work for this. And as long as it works, it's good, you know what I mean? And as long as it's funny, you're not thinking, is he dumb or is he smart or is she dumb? You're just thinking it works. And all of a sudden, all the stigmas and the history and the conversation around it kind of falls by the wayside because you're just watching a thing that works, you know what I mean? And so that's what I've seen work is like with platonic, it just is, you know, Rose's character is like doing incredibly stupid things all the time, making incredibly poor choices, being irresponsible, putting people in danger, putting people at risk, doing things that, again, I guess you could like philosophically argue, like, is it great to portray anyone like that?

53:21Is it good? Are we, what are we saying about women when we do this? What are we saying about men when we do this? But I think what they do so well on that show is like, they're not trying to do that. They're like, what makes this character allow Rose Byrne to give the funniest performance she could possibly give and be as funny in these scenes as she could possibly be. And I think like, I find like these kind of heavier conversations about theme and society and culture, like, hopefully that's just within you. and will come out through your work because it's organic to your perspective, you know?

53:56Do you think Hollywood has become more risk-averse? Yes. Okay. Yeah, 100%. Yes. Period. End of story. Like, and we've just seen it. Like, you know, Superbad's a good example. Like, when we made that movie, they bought our script, they hired a director, they said it would have a$20 million budget and it would start shooting in August or in April of that year. And it would come out in like August of the following year. That's it. And then we cast the movie. We found a director for the movie. We made it according to their schedule and we released it on the date they chose. That would never happen today in a hundred million years.

54:46No studio would just buy a script give it a release date, cast it, and then make it. Now, everything has to be in place before they will decide whether or not they're making it. Who's the director? Who are the actors? Are they famous enough? Do they have big enough names? If not, then we gotta get different ones or else we won't make it. And I know we wanted to start shooting in April and release it next summer, but if we don't have the right actors, we're not gonna do that because we think these actors will get us more money than these actors, even though they might not be the funniest actors for the role, they might be more commercial for the role.

55:21Not to say you won't ultimately get to the funniest people for the role, but you'll have to go through an incredible process to do it in a way that is all due to risk aversion. You know, like Amy Pascal was willing to just say, like, make this movie. You'll put the funniest people in it. That will make the best version of the movie, and the best version of this movie is what will make us the most money. that is not said anymore really in Hollywood. As I was preparing for this interview, I was looking at your list of credits and, you know, it's just astonishing when you sort of sit with it, producing the hit superhero series, The Boys, acting in The Invite, voicing Kung Fu Panda, Platonic, The Studio.

56:03I mean, there's just like a lot there. And I was recently watching Judd Apatow's excellent documentary on Mel Brooks. Oh, yeah. and thinking that you're our generation's Mel Brooks. I mean, you've already made comedies that have sort of defined a generation. You're only 44. I mean, is he someone that you've modeled your career on?

56:27Seth Rogen:Honestly, I love Mel Brooks. I more modeled my career off of Harold Ramis. And I would look at, like, not on a personal level, but I was a big... my parents loved Woody Allen movies when I was a kid, you know, and I was sort of inundated with like Hannah and her sisters and things like that. And, and Mel Brooks. I mean, I, I like, it's funny, like Spaceballs, like I watched Spaceballs before Star Wars probably a hundred million times. But, um, what's funny is I never had like too close of a plan or too specific of a goal or I never looked at anyone's career really and was like, I want that career.

57:06I, I, I think when I was in my early twenties, I sort of surpassed any expectation I could have had for myself in many ways. And, and, and after that, I sort of saw that like the greatest gift I could give to myself was to like do whatever creatively excited me in whatever moment I was in and not working towards something where like, I'll only be happy if I do this. And if once I do this, I'll know I've made it, you know, like I, I, I, I felt like I made it when I was 23 years old. And so after that, I was like, I, I think I should just do what seems exciting to me. And, and, and it is funny because sometimes I will do an interview and look back and I'll be like, wow, I'm doing a lot of, it's a lot of stuff.

57:53And it's, and it's a weird array of stuff. And, but I look at, and it's a stuff, it's stuff that truly reflects my taste and who I am and my sensibilities. Me and Evan grew up reading comic books. We were, that's one of the first things we bonded on. And so getting to adapt comic books, Garth Ennis was one of my favorite comic book writers of all time. So getting to make Preacher and the boys and things like that, especially like, you know, I remember when like David Fincher was attached to make Preacher and then it fell apart and we ended up making it. And the boys, like every big director in Hollywood was attached to adapt the boys at one point or another.

58:25Seth Rogen:And we just sort of like hung out in the background for a decade until everyone else fell through and we became the most viable option to produce it. Who turned it down? It wasn't even they turned down. It didn't work out. It just didn't work out. They kept making versions. It is tricky and we changed it quite a bit from the source material, I think, to make it into something that was far more digestible as visual entertainment than it would have been otherwise, you know? But I think, like, the greatest gift I have in my career is that I truly, we can kind of do anything and we can make dramatic things and comedic things and animated things and live action things and things like Ninja Turtles, honestly, like has been one of my favorite things we've made in years.

59:13And like, I love that movie. And I think it's so good and so reflective of my taste and my sensibility and what I loved when I I was a kid, but also infused with like the highest level of writing and storytelling and plot construction that I could fathomably have helped conceive of in that time in my life. And I look at how it's constructed from like a structure and story standpoint, and I'm like legitimately very proud of it. And I think like, oh, that is like as well structured a film as you can make in many ways. And my hope is that our work just clearly has had the highest level of thought and care and consideration put into it, no matter what it is.

59:58And like, as risk averse as Hollywood is, I'm always trying to instill in the people that we work with, like, if we can take a swing, let's take it. If no one's looking, let's do something crazy. If no one's, if we're in this moment where no one's paying attention, like, let's, let's make Ninja Turtles look insane. Like, let's really push it. And to me, I also hope our work has that sort of like intrepid spirit, like a spirit of that we are going for it and that we are not playing it safe, but we are swinging for the fences, you know? Seth Rogen, thank you so much. We'll speak again. Thank you.

1:00:43After the break, I talk to Seth again and ask him about AI.

1:00:47Seth Rogen:The worst person you know who has any interest in writing is probably more helpful to you ultimately than some, like, artificial intelligence program.

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1:02:14Seth Rogen, so glad to talk to you again.

1:02:16Seth Rogen:We're back. We're back. All right. In our first conversation, we talked about opportunities for young people coming up in Hollywood and how the industry has changed and possibly, you know, someone like you wouldn't have the same sort of opportunities to make movies today. And then we just saw two YouTubers dominate the box office. One of them, Kane Parsons, the director of Backrooms, is 20. He was 16 when he made the YouTube video the movie is based on. And then Curry Barker, the director of Obsession, is 26. These have just been like huge successes. I mean, what do you make of that? I mean, honestly, it totally fits in line with advice that I have been giving people for years when they come up to me, which is they say, I want to make it in movies.

1:03:04I want to do something. Um, and I tell them like, make stuff and make stuff that, that is really good. And I'm like, trust me, people like me are like begging that, praying that they see something impressive. Um, I met with Kane when I think he was 16 or 17 years old because I watched his YouTube videos. Um, and I remember the people at my company being like, why are we meeting with a 16 year old? And I was like, trust me, this kid is very talented, you know? And so ever since our phones had cameras on them, basically, I've been, that has become my default advice to people. And now with Blender and visual effects and things like that, people like on literally on a laptop, you can make a thing that, that, that when I was growing up would cost you tens of millions of dollars, you know?

1:03:53Um, it has really open the door for people who are skilled and dedicated to really show what they're capable of, you know? And I think that that's a great thing. Hollywood always seems to be in the middle of like an angsty crisis. Variety called what just happened with these two YouTubers a, quote, tectonic shift in Hollywood that sent shockwaves through the industry. I do wonder, first of all, what you make of that. I mean, do you think that's overstating what just happened? Because I guess what I think is so alluring to executives is that YouTubers, as you just mentioned, have cheap technology that they can use to get millions of eyeballs.

1:04:36They can workshop an idea and then have a built-in audience. So I guess it takes the guesswork out of selling tickets. So I'm just wondering how you see it, since you already were tracking him for so long. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if, like, online engagement necessarily translates into, like, ticket sales. Definitely. You know what I mean? But I think to your first part of the question, like, I think it's overstating that it's a tectonic shift if your assumption is that these shifts don't happen constantly in Hollywood. And I think that's something me and Evan talk about a lot is it's from network.

1:05:20I always think of that line of network where Robert Duvall is like, it's a volatile industry. And the investors are like, well, we shouldn't be – why are we financially invested in a volatile industry? But I think by definition, it is a volatile industry, and it changes. And it's almost the one defining feature of Hollywood from my experience in it is that there is every few years a tectonic shift. And thank God it's not really my job to be overly invested in these trends, I guess. And I'm able to sort of keep my head down. And we're aware of them again. And we'll kind of ride the waves of them if it fits in with our own creative ambitions, you know.

1:06:06And I'm more than happy to like say in a pitch how whatever I'm doing maybe fits into the trend of what I hope the executive I'm pitching to or assume the executive I'm pitching to is looking for. But to me, yeah, like I, it's not that shocking to me that something like this happened. There's like a whole generation of people who have access to essentially professional filmmaking equipment for a price that, again, when I was young was like completely unobtainable. and they're making their own stuff and studios are making tons of money off of it, which, again, is not that different than like when Lonely Island and those guys made YouTube videos and people hired them or when the Broad City Girls made their show on YouTube and people hired them or when, you know, Nathan Field, a lot of people, like in comedy, it's a little more commonplace, I think, but I think now with technology, it's allowing people who really thrive in different genres, genres that traditionally maybe require more resources to really kind of show what they can do.

1:07:07And again, in studios, we'll be more than happy to capitalize off of that whenever they

1:07:11Seth Rogen:see an opportunity to. Let me ask you, just as an aside, what makes a good pitch? I think a good pitch is short, generally speaking, honestly. And I think a pitch, and I'm not someone who I assume is great at pitching, honestly, you know what I mean? But I'm sure people pitch you, I'm sure. So I'm just curious. If the idea is genuinely good, the pitch is kind of easy. And I'm actually kind of suspicious of people who are like good pitchers. To me, like the quintessential pitch I'm used to hearing is from like a nervous comedy writer who has terrible people skills, who has no ability to like present themselves in a way that is nearly representative of what they're capable of.

1:07:57Seth Rogen:You know what I mean? And so when someone comes in too slick and flashy, I get a little suspicious, honestly. But I'm just looking for the idea. I know myself, I've had so many ideas that are so hard to pitch. I remember trying to pitch people Pineapple Express and them just looking at us like we were insane. And trying to pitch this is the end and people looking at us like we were crazy. And like with the studio, when we pitched that, our only thought was to like way over deliver. What makes it easy for these people whose entire job is like risk mitigation to say yes to me? And so they could see like, oh, it has a cast and I don't have to imagine like, who's this character?

1:08:39Like, it's this person. Who's this character? It's this person. Like, and I think it showed like we really like were geared towards making the show and not just towards like writing the show for money, which is another thing a lot of people do, you know? So one of the other sort of big disruptors in Hollywood is, of course, AI. And you've been, you know, vocally against AI's use in writing and in animation. Do you feel like you're standing against the tide? And why are you standing against the tide? Because, again, I guess it's like a, you know, I think the executives view it as like a cost savings, right?

1:09:19Because I think they see it as a way to execute in a way that doesn't require as many resources. Yeah, and I think like, I guess I look to the different sectors of the industry. Like, I know a lot of people who work in visual effects who think, who are visual effects artists, truly, who think AI can help them do their work better. But they work in a field where technology is something they are having to navigate in order to do their job to what they view as the best of their abilities. I don't think writing has that problem. You know what I mean? I don't think if you're having a hard time writing that technology is the thing that is in your way.

1:10:05I think it is either your dedication or your skills or your abilities or just the amount of time you've spent doing it and the amount you have to develop your own abilities to match what it is you're hoping you're putting out in the world, you know? And I'm only speaking from my own personal interest in it, you know what I mean? Like I know other writers who do use, you know, ChatGPT to have conversations, I guess, about their ideas.

1:10:32Seth Rogen:It's just not a thing that has ever interested me, and it's not a thing that I ever was even remotely tempted to engage with because I have a writing process that I really enjoy, you know what I mean? But I do understand how you, if you were alone somewhere in your apartment writing, trying to write a script, having no one to talk to about it, no one in your life cares that you're doing this. I definitely understand the temptation to use a, like, artificial intelligence as some sort of sounding board because working alone is very hard and scary, you know. But I think I would advise people to seek out some sort of creative community.

1:11:21Seth Rogen:And even, like, the worst person you know who has any interest in writing is probably more helpful to you ultimately than some, like, artificial intelligence program to talk about your writing with. You're not going to have an Evan AI bot to be that. Exactly. All right. Hard pivot. As I mentioned, you were on Howard Stern, where you told a lot of stories about drugs. Yeah. And you said the only time that you were drug-free was on a trip to Singapore, when drugs are illegal on penalty of death. And I really was curious, because you didn't describe the experience of what it was like not to be high for the first time since you were a kid.

1:12:04Seth Rogen:It was fine. It's not that weird. Like, yeah, it was fine. And I go straight, like, it's not like I, in my day to day life, I am not in a position where I can just smoke weed literally all day, every day at all times. Like I, I, you know, last week we were filming in some skyscraper downtown. I couldn't smoke weed in there. And so I went, I went to all day without smoking weed and it's pretty, you know, it's not like I'm freaking out or anything. It's just, you know, I'm a little happier if I can't smoke weed all day. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've helped normalize cannabis use. When I think about Pineapple Express to today, it's been a complete sea change.

1:12:47Yes. And I think it's a real testament to the cultural impact of your work. Was that an explicit aim or just sort of a fortunate byproduct? I'd say it was sort of a specific aim, but a very personal one. I don't think our goal was like, if this works, we will change culture's view on weed. I think it was more like we don't like how we are stigmatized as people who smoke weed. And I think the ultimate way to show that people who smoke a lot of weed are not who you think they are is to really proficiently make an entire movie about people who smoke weed implicitly by people who smoke weed that is for people who smoke weed, but is actually like has the thought and care and consideration and, and, and technical kind of acumen put into it that, that like any real Hollywood movie has.

1:13:48And I think to us, that's kind of what had never been done before. Friday is probably the closest one, you know? And I love that movie, but, but even that was sort of like a very, I think they moved that movie for like almost no money, you know, it was a very small movie. And, and I think that movie kind of had an outsized impact, but yeah, we were really kind of on a personal level trying to be like, what if we made like a real, like a real weed movie and people saw that like, it wasn't this like outcast thing for idiots. It was a thing that could be as mainstream as, as anything, you know? And we were shocked when it was so embraced, honestly, in that today when I go to the weed store, the fact that there's like pineapple express weed that exists is like so funny, I think.

1:14:35And, and like a real direct kind of descendant of, of the movie. And I think the fact that, yeah, that it was a weed movie that, and even when we were promoting that movie, like it was not easy. Like, you know, they, people, I remember going on TRL, which dates this story and like really

1:14:54Seth Rogen:literally right before I went on, they were like, oh, and you can't talk about weed at all. And I'm like, I'm here to promote a movie. Like the movie's title is weed. Like what am I going to talk about? And they were like, I don't know. Figure it out. But you literally can't mention weed on this show. How do you promote that movie without mentioning weed? Well, what I think I did is I did talk about it and then they like aired it once and then it scrubbed it from TRL existence. Yeah, it was tough. Okay. Before I say goodbye, you're filming the studio today. Anything that you can say about the new season?

1:15:27Anything at all?

1:15:29Seth Rogen:I don't know. I can say it's far more ambitious than the first season. And I honestly, like there's been many times I've been on set this season and I've been, I, I've been truly amazed at, at what in a way that has offered me a lot of gratification and pride. I've been amazed at what we've been able to pull off and the people we've been able to talk into doing the show and the people I've gotten to work with. And I've watched the episodes and I really feel as though I'm pushing myself more and more. I'm excited and nervous for people to see it. But as we make it, it feels like we have tried to up our game.

1:16:14And there are moments where I really feel like we are doing something that I'm very proud of. Seth Rogen, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

1:16:26That's Seth Rogen. The invite is in theaters June 26. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash at symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing by Safiya Landman, Original music by Marion Lozano. Photography by Devin Yalkin. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orm, Paola Neudorf, Joe Bill Munoz, Alejandro Sotogoico, Kathleen O 'Brien, and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Next week, David talks with the prolific actor, writer, and producer Danny McBride about what exactly is over the line.

1:17:10Seth Rogen:It is funny writing comedy and then writing horror where people can get offended from jokes, obviously. I mean, it happens all the time. But for some reason with horror, there's none of that. You're just like, we're just coming up with cool ways to kill people. And nobody's upset about it. You're just allowed to. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.